Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[--Q--uaint]

Perhaps I shouldn't wait so long between replies here; I lost a good chunk of my post when I switched pages :c
As a result of this, I have been a little more terse than is my custom since I don't feel like writing all that all over again.
I would have composed it in Notepad++ or similar, but it was full of quotations and stuff....

On 8/18/2016 at 0:10 AM, taiiat said:

i want to strongly note that if Power Range affects the size of the ring, it'll get a lot harder to know exactly where to place it on the first cast, and high Power Range would make using that ring to deterr Enemies actually difficult because some Enemies would probably be inside the cast area

Arch's tweaks to the ability include making it an AoE rather than a ring, and making Fire Fright innate. If an enemy is inside the initial cast area, they are compelled to stay there for the full duration.

On 8/18/2016 at 0:10 AM, taiiat said:

Radiation/Blast Damage? Radiation is pretty strange.
and the initial mechanics is a Ranged version of Fire Blast, plus Radial Blind. so you moved Fire Blast, and deleted an Ability, in order to give another.... of an Ability she already has.

The original thought behind the ability was that it would be a "firework." Radiation corresponds to light, which is a major component of fireworks. Radiation is also a combined element with Heat as a base; I was trying to think of a good way to add Gas in, too.

Radiation would also give her another source of CC, and the ability's nature would give her the ability to project power without closing the distance.

 

 

On 8/18/2016 at 0:34 PM, Archwizard said:

I'm a bit concerned with introducing the infinite-range pulse, to be honest. Charging mechanic aside (which is already diminished in the same rework by virtue of allowing the player to charge it with Maim), it seems like we're just creating an effect with no downsides, especially since you could just waste nothing via the pulse from Mend and immediately swap the dome to Maim to finish off anyone near you; the only reason not to drop Trinity for Equinox at all times would be EV (which we already gave a good smacking with a sledgehammer in the OP).

Trinity is an entirely different animal to our new Nightquinox. Trinity chills out near her allies, providing Blessing and EV. She uses Link to protect herself, should enemies get near enough to threaten her. Blessing also provides significant damage reduction, which helps basically everyone.

Nightquinox, OTOH, charges into the fray and murders enemies close up; that's where her abilities are strongest. Rest subdues primary threats, while Pacify keeps her general survivability high and Mend sustains her in the tougher moments.
Bearing that in mind, it's also a goal to have Nightquinox be a healer. If her role is to be all up in enemies' grills (and it is), then it makes all the sense to give her an infinite-range heal. The requirement to charge Mend before use keeps it from replacing Blessing, too.

Our iteration of Mend here makes it actually better than Blessing in a few respects; Mend will sustain you against any level of burst DPS while you're in the bubble and there's enough HP stored, and Mend can have multiple overlapping casts that give you uninterrupted protection. Really, it's Equinox's required tanking skill - she's expected to be near enemies, so giving it an infinite-range heal just means you can also help your allies while staying where you're most effective.

Blessing still maintains its niche as well; it needs no modding for range, has a longer range, and anyone who receives the initial cast gets the full benefits for the full duration regardless of positioning. Blessing also still maintains its queenship of reactive healing, since all you need is enough energy and the cast time to bring an ally back from the brink.

Also, Maim domes were never proposed together with an infinite-range Mend pulse AFAIK. I'll repost my original proposal here in a spoiler: (with a bit of extra polish/clarity)

Spoiler

On 8/13/2016 at 7:18 AM, ChronoEclipse said:

#4 Mend/Maim
Same casting mechanics as now, but the "bomb" is retained and the skill is not deactivated when Metamorphosis is cast.
"bomb" accumulation uses the same mechanics as now.
Mend:
Allies inside the AoE no longer have a shield recharge delay NB: Proc immunity or both could be put here, but I think proc immunity might be a little OP
On deactivation, the "bomb" is scaled with power strength and divided equally among all allies, regardless of range. Any excess healing is redirected into a bubble that lasts 10 seconds (scaling with duration) and heals any ally who comes to harm within it.
Maim:
Same bleed/stun mechanic as now
On deactivation, the "bomb" is multiplied by 5x[?] (scaled with power strength) divided equally among all enemies in range and enough damage to kill each one is dealt directly to their HP (disregarding shields/armor). Any excess damage is returned to Equinox and for the next 10 seconds (scaling with duration), Equinox spends from that sum to finish off any enemy she deals damage to.

On 8/18/2016 at 0:34 PM, Archwizard said:

Maybe the latter is just me being paranoid, but attaching the wave and persistent effect to just one side just seems inconsistent, and together on either form would be a little unintuitive in terms of design.

As noted above, Maim also gets a lasting effect in my rework proposal. Both this and the instant heal are rangeless; Dayquinox kills anything she attacks while Nightquinox heals all allies.

The instant effect on Maim and the lasting effect on Mend both respect range; since both powers have a ranged and a rangeless element as well as an instant and sustained element, I think this iteration mirrors pretty well.

In addition, I think that having Mend/Maim's effects on the already launched power would be a little unintuitive; I think my proposal gives a decent way for the ability to easily maintain consistency with casting intent and thus allow some level of inter-form synergy.

On 8/18/2016 at 9:51 PM, Archwizard said:

Transition time reduced. 

DE has stated that the transition time would be shorter if not for technical limitations. Therefore, like Hall of Mirrors only using 2 of 4 clones, it's probably not gonna happen. Same goes for Natural Talent.

On 8/18/2016 at 9:51 PM, Archwizard said:

- Pacify instead applies a damage reducing debuff to enemies within range, affected by Duration; energy is only consumed each time an enemy receives the debuff, and its effects no longer fall off at range. 

This is good, but I think it should do both the debuff and a slow since that fits with Azamagon's proposed Provoke and Rage... which make it very clear that Dayquinox is supposed to be in groups of enemies rather than hugging her allies.

On 8/18/2016 at 9:51 PM, Archwizard said:

- Metamorphosis grants diminishing energy generation to Equinox following the transition.

6 hours ago, Archwizard said:

- I'm half-tempted to make Metamorphosis have a "Power In Use" error while it's ticking down, so you have to stay in one form if you just swapped to get the benefits of the energy regen. However, part of me feels like this defeats the point of the diminishing effect in the first place...

I have two suggestions for this:

1) Simply make the regen scale with duration and efficiency such that you regain the casting cost over the first half of the duration, and beyond that is gravy.

2) Give Metamorphosis a "comboing" mechanic where consecutive casts enhance the buffs given while nerfing the energy regen aspect (and/or increasing casting cost?)

It all depends on how often you want her switching.

On 8/18/2016 at 9:51 PM, Archwizard said:

- Rest now creates a 5-meter wide stationary sphere of effect at the target location, which will put any enemy who enters to sleep while the sphere persists or until they receive enough damage, up to a maximum number of instances affected by rank.

I think that if you're going with a static field, you should only be able to have one. Give it a bit bigger AoE and maybe duration to compensate, but I don't think it's reasonable to be able to lock down multiple choke points.
This change would also make my "blind on melee" charges idea for Metamorphosis more attractive.

On 8/18/2016 at 9:51 PM, Archwizard said:

- Calm & Frenzy replaced: Enemies affected by Rage receive a Radiation proc, while allies who linger within Rest's fields will be healed over time.

I see no real reason to replace the current augment. I much prefer Azamagon's version of Rage and Provoke, which provides a need for a comparable mechanic on Rest. The healing would work nicely, but I also think proc immunity would be a good mechanic for this ability.

Perhaps more to the point, Rage disarming enemies is fine as long as that's not all it does... giving Rage the exact same augment as Radial Disarm is a little silly and uncreative IMO.

On 8/18/2016 at 9:51 PM, Archwizard said:

- Enemies have higher threat towards Equinox under the effects of Provoke, and are less aware of Equinox during the effects of Pacify.

I much prefer Azamagon's proposals here. Aggro mechanics in this game are not especially well defined, so it's hard to say anything definite about them.

On 8/18/2016 at 9:51 PM, Archwizard said:

- Mend & Maim health pools also absorb energy based on the health lost by allies within the aura while toggled active.

I think it might work if a multiplier was factored in? 10 or 100x? Also, it should work with all damage taken which may even include Iron Skin et. al. and would definitely include shields.

On 8/18/2016 at 9:51 PM, Archwizard said:

Final note - this might actually be enough changes to write up an upper listing for Equinox...

If you used Azamagon's reworked skills, I think it definitely would be... and I really like Azamagon's rework.

6 hours ago, Archwizard said:

I find I still have an issue with Maim for being too "passive"

My proposed Maim sustained mechanic would help substantially to fix that, I think. Murder/Maim everything near you, then go on a hyperefficient killing spree.

6 hours ago, Archwizard said:

The persistent sphere of effect is potent enough to make up for the charging mechanic, and both sides of it embody both philosophies simultaneously

Absolutely agree with you here. I still like my idea better, though.

6 hours ago, Archwizard said:

- I know that Peaceful Provocation is popular, but in the same vein as our issues with Equinox being discouraged from switching, I'm finding I take some ire with Peaceful Provocation for forcing Equinox into leaving one form active for prolonged periods

Yo, I had an idea once... it went like this...

On 8/17/2016 at 3:06 PM, ChronoEclipse said:

I have an idea for [changing Pacify/Provoke's augment]. The augment is called Peaceful Provocation.. that kinda sounds like it should mix the ability halves a bit. [aka making Pacify more Provoke-ative and Provoke more Pacify-ing]

I'm assuming here that Pacify's enemy-nerfing percentage isn't so high that other defenses effectively become window dressing. I'm thinking 299% strength should give you around 70% at most, if it's not capped lower than that. (At least for the purpose of having [the Pacify side of] this augment idea be relevant.)

When augmented, Pacify now forces enemies in its radius to aggro on Equinox. Pacify now also grants Equinox DR, and drains [original damage]/100 energy for the protection.
Example: Equinox gets hit with 300 damage. With base efficiency, she is charged 3 energy by her DR. Her power strength then determines the amount of damage she takes by setting the DR.

When augmented, Provoke boosts the threat level of all enemies in the radius, and gives Equinox a 100% chance of inflicting a Radiation proc when damaging any enemy in the radius.

6 hours ago, Archwizard said:

With the rework as it stands, we did just go out of our way to remove the "hybrid tax" she was paying in terms of her fluidity, without necessarily replacing it...

I think this is a fair assessment. Since most 'frames only have 2 or 3 good abilities, Equinox having 3 good ones at all times as well as Metamorphosis stuff and her other form to rely on is probably OP.

2 hours ago, Archwizard said:

On a bonus note, this will definitely make shield-regeneration a viable form of survivability.

*mumble mumble* _{Hey, we were just talking about making Mend remove shield recharge delay...} *cough*

[Archwizard]

1 hour ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Trinity is an entirely different animal to our new Nightquinox.

Maybe. On the other hand, there isn't just "Nightquinox", there's the whole product of Equinox. Like tnccs215 was mentioning, her hybridization requires striking that balance between each of her skills being half-skills of one frame and whole-skills on a frame with twice as many as any other.
Trinity gets a skill that extends bleedout across the map, and full-heals/protects the party nearby for a brief period. Nightquinox in that suggestion would get a skill the pre-empts bleedout across the map (keeping in mind that given the relative size of player health-pools, you could probably charge a party-wide full-heal with one kill, allowing you to potentially do so more efficiently), and full-heals/protects the party nearby for an even longer period. And that's before the ability to snap your fingers and make it a killing wave.

1 hour ago, ChronoEclipse said:

DE has stated that the transition time would be shorter if not for technical limitations. Therefore, like Hall of Mirrors only using 2 of 4 clones, it's probably not gonna happen. Same goes for Natural Talent.

On the one-hand, first time I'm hearing that (unless I heard it in passing and just forgot). Last time Scott mentioned it, the time to swap was intentional.

On the other hand, nobody said we needed to see the mid-transition form during Metamorphosis either, so they absolutely have room to trim a good 50% of the cast time even without Natural Talent.

1 hour ago, ChronoEclipse said:

I see no real reason to replace the current augment.

Perhaps more to the point, Rage disarming enemies is fine as long as that's not all it does... giving Rage the exact same augment as Radial Disarm is a little silly and uncreative IMO.

I presume you mean other than the fact that it'd be kinda hard to spread a stationary effect for Rest? Sure it could be done (much like Hallowed Reckoning placing patches based on the number of affected enemies), but allowing it to grow defeats the point of putting the limiter on it in the first place.

Rage doesn't simply disarm enemies - that's in addition to its current effects, increasing the targets' speed and damage taken.
I understand that it's less than creative, but there aren't all that many ways to convey "your buddy is now out of control and a danger to both himself and others" besides that type of (unfortunately overused) mechanic... without getting really convoluted. More than you can put in the description of one augment mod.

1 hour ago, ChronoEclipse said:

since that fits with Azamagon's propos[al]

I much prefer Azamagon's version

I much prefer Azamagon's proposals here

 

If you used Azamagon's reworked skills [...] and I really like Azamagon's rework.

Not to sound callous, but as I already admitted earlier, I'm still having difficulty getting through the two pages of reworks you guys had written between my ADD, being several days behind and the large blocks of text. So I honestly have no context for that yet, because it physically feels like my brain is rebooting when I look at blocks, especially when I do most of that reading late at night.

I just wanted to create a version that was easy for someone just picking up Equinox to comprehend without going into details, but difficult to master without mixing both forms.

1 hour ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Aggro mechanics in this game are not especially well defined, so it's hard to say anything definite about them.

Alright I'm just gonna cut this one off here, 'cuz that's the third time I've seen someone say it and it's actually starting to bug me:

No, aggro mechanics and awareness are actually pretty well-defined tools under the hood, from what I've seen. It exists as a stat the devs have directly altered for effects like Absorb and Silence in the past (which is the same kind of tech they could just push over to the mechanic I was suggesting), much like Evasion is now. It's just not terribly well defined for the players, because it exists in the background. It's still there though, meaning it's still an available option - and failing that, going by my own work concepting, there are always ways to alter a mechanic to achieve the same visible effect from the player's perspective.

1 hour ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Since most 'frames only have 2 or 3 good abilities, Equinox having 3 good ones at all times as well as Metamorphosis stuff and her other form to rely on is probably OP.

I prefer not to think of it as "you're OP if your kit is even vaguely good" so much as "you're OP if your kit does the jobs of several other frames simultaneously and better than they do it".
As was pointed out by Aquasurge above, imagine the potential of having 8 Equinoxes together in a trial. All of their Mend/Maim generation pools stacking from the same kills, yet only one needs to set their bubble at a time. Multiple Provoke auras stacking on each other.
It should still be possible for them to pass, it's just a matter of how efficiently they should compared to having specialists.

1 hour ago, ChronoEclipse said:

*mumble mumble* _{Hey, we were just talking about making Mend remove shield recharge delay...} *cough*

True, and I agreed when I wrote that suggestion in the first place - and that suggestion was overruled when I put it to a vote. As I said however, ultimately the fact that Maim had a bleed effect in the first place was pretty ridiculous, and trying to bump Mend up to that was only necessary if Maim retained it.

Besides, with Shield Gating, your party would actually have sustained invulnerability as long as the toggle was active, since you'd regenerate quickly enough to repel automatic fire (something that would be a natural weakness of Shield Gating if it didn't include a minimum amount of invulnerability when shields break). DE's spent 3 years toning down Trinity, I'm not trying to oust her to be replaced with Equinox here.

Edited August 20, 2016 by Archwizard

[Azamagon]

Just a quick little thought in regards to all this balancing:

If we make sure abilities aren't really strong AND heavily reduce energy gains, aren't we then making a doublenerf? Imo, abilities could go 2 routes:

* A bit less frequent in use than now (energystuff only slightly nerfed), but also kept more "mediocre" in effect. This is more the route of making abilities having the option of being an "alternative" to weaponplay, but could also be complimentary if you want. (This is my personal favourite route)

* Abilities are quite a bit more infrequent (energystuff more heavily nerfed), but abilities are all very powerful (i.e. keeping most powerful abilities powerful, while buffing the weaksauce ones). In this version, I feel ability reliability is also far more important (so, less RNG and such)

What is the main plan here?

[tnccs215]

11 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Couple last second thoughts about Equinox as I'm writing up her section for the OP:

- In the same vein that I had an issue with Rest for being too "active", I find I still have an issue with Maim for being too "passive". The fact that you need to build it up and generate it is one thing; the fact that it can tear enemies apart in your peripheral without even needing to finish the cast though? Quite another.
I'm actually half-tempted not to add a "counter" buff to Mend, but to remove the bleed from Maim. The persistent sphere of effect is potent enough to make up for the charging mechanic, and both sides of it embody both philosophies simultaneously, but the passive bleed has always been an outlier. It's not like we need the stun anymore, with that disarm on Rage doing enough for that.

- I know that Peaceful Provocation is popular, but in the same vein as our issues with Equinox being discouraged from switching, I'm finding I take some ire with Peaceful Provocation for forcing Equinox into leaving one form active for prolonged periods. I'm this close to taking that threat mechanic I was discussing for P&P and making it into a replacement augment (which could help justify the potential power level y'all were worried about...).

- I'm half-tempted to make Metamorphosis have a "Power In Use" error while it's ticking down, so you have to stay in one form if you just swapped to get the benefits of the energy regen. However, part of me feels like this defeats the point of the diminishing effect in the first place...

I know that probably none of these are appealing to look at, but that's the point of a nerf. With the rework as it stands, we did just go out of our way to remove the "hybrid tax" she was paying in terms of her fluidity, without necessarily replacing it... which potentially means that she's one frame who can do everything. The point of increasing the fluidity is that you rely on the versatility provided by both forms to make up for the flaws of the one, but right now all we've done is ironed out those in-built flaws.

sorry for getting here late, but I actually approve of them all, except for the metamorphosis one. I always somewhat disaproved of the instant damage: It is irrelevant at higher levels, and WoF levels of cheese at lower. Regarding Peaceful Provocation: Rework it at will. It is purely a bandaid mod, that takes the counter-intuitive discouragement for form changing up to 11. Part of why I wanted a slow on it was to nullify the vague need of it, and demand a complete rework for the augment. The thing is, I think slow and Pacify are things that make sense connected. Ence why I like the slow. But, again, outrageously poorly implemented.

@Azamagon, yeah, according to my sources, she said that. That, am keeping the powers up after using metamorphosis would be "overpowered". She obviously fails to see that Equinox problem isnt a lack of "power", just like Saryn's problem wasn't a lack of power. Sure, her issues were order of magnitudes larger, but it's basically the same one: Overreliance on some powers while discarding others. Equinox has, of course, the added awful clunkiness that put her on a whole new paradigm of poorly made frames, but the point stands. Ugg, sorry. I'm also too far behind the conversation. Gotta read it.

[EDIT]: What? We are getting shield gates? Oh good.

btw, it would be funny if mend granted both proposed passives: It might have been able to create an interesting form of tanking based on shielding, with the status immunity to nullify problems like toxin procs and so. Not saying that it should be implemented, just saying it would be a cool gimmick.

 

Edited August 20, 2016 by tnccs215

[--Q--uaint]

2 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Trinity gets a skill that extends bleedout across the map, and full-heals/protects the party nearby for a brief period. 

...right. I feel dumb for forgetting the changes to Blessing; I was comparing Mend to the Blessing we have now, which is considerably better in most circumstances.

With that in mind... I agree that my ideas are pretty OP. I'm fine with Mend/Maim using the dome mechanic, though I appear to have had a case of idea aggro...

Spoiler

Mend/Maim
The ability still has a collective "bomb" which is fueled in the familiar current way, and can be transferred between forms through Metamorphosis.
However, there is no longer any passive effect; there is a "pulse" and a "deactivate" effect. The pulse is triggered by tapping the ability while it is active, while deactivation is a hold-cast. I am unsure if pulsing should have an energy cost.
If the ability ends early due to energy loss or nullifying, it will produce a "pulse" with no 'frame animation.
Mend
Pulse: Healing is distributed as current Mend, with the bomb's contents scaled with power strength. However, excess healing is returned to the "bomb" so the only cost of a useless pulse is time lost to the animation.
Deactivation: Healing is distributed as a pulse would, but with 1.5x effectiveness and the ability to grant shields and overshields. The "bomb" is used up and the ability ends.
Maim
Pulse: Damage is distributed as current Maim, with the addition of scaling with power strength. Half of the "bomb" is used with each pulse, so choose wisely whether it is worth spending the half the "bomb" contents to get the available kills.
Deactivation: Damage is distributed as by a pulse, but with a 2x multiplier. The "bomb" is fully spent and the ability ends.

3 hours ago, Archwizard said:

On the one-hand, first time I'm hearing that (unless I heard it in passing and just forgot). Last time Scott mentioned it, the time to swap was intentional.

Hmm. I distinctly remember hearing something about that from a dev, but maybe I'm just crazy. I went back and looked at the Devstream 57 and Scott said it "needed time to actually happen" which could mean an awful lot of different things.

Your point about the transitional form is almost certainly relevant, though.

3 hours ago, Archwizard said:

but allowing it to grow defeats the point of putting the limiter on it in the first place

It's still definitely limited by the total duration and your ability to kill enemies at the edge of the effect. I think it's fine, but I suppose it could go either way.

3 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Rage doesn't simply disarm enemies - that's in addition to its current effects, increasing the targets' speed and damage taken.

I suppose that's fair, but buffing incoming damage usually doesn't matter to a higher-level player; I can't think of a situation where I'd really prefer to have a high power strength on this iteration of the ability, particularly since the enemies being restricted to melee means I have more time to shoot them.
On that note, it might be amusing to make it a base speed increase of 2-3x with power strength reducing the enhancement?

3 hours ago, Archwizard said:

I understand that it's less than creative, but there aren't all that many ways to convey "your buddy is now out of control and a danger to both himself and others" besides that type of (unfortunately overused) mechanic... without getting really convoluted. More than you can put in the description of one augment mod.

I get this... but we already have a workable augment. If it ain't broke, I don't think it's reasonable to fix it.

3 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Not to sound callous, but as I already admitted earlier, I'm still having difficulty getting through the two pages of reworks you guys had written between my ADD, being several days behind and the large blocks of text. So I honestly have no context for that yet,

That's completely ok. I'm trying to find a way to say this nicely, and failing... I don't propose to speak for everyone here, but I think I would prefer if you read the full discussion before adding more stuff to the OP, or at least the latest full rework that nobody has objected seriously to (like mine lol).
...That still sounds much harsher than I meant it.

3 hours ago, Archwizard said:

No, aggro mechanics and awareness are actually pretty well-defined tools under the hood, from what I've seen. It exists as a stat the devs have directly altered for effects like Absorb and Silence in the past (which is the same kind of tech they could just push over to the mechanic I was suggesting), much like Evasion is now. It's just not terribly well defined for the players, because it exists in the background. It's still there though, meaning it's still an available option - and failing that, going by my own work concepting, there are always ways to alter a mechanic to achieve the same visible effect from the player's perspective.

From what I've seen/read around, aggro in Warframe is based on a "threat" level assigned to each entity. You can increase or reduce your threat level artificially, but that doesn't make any guarantees.
Decoy has a super-high threat level (so far as I can tell), but doesn't always draw aggro away from you. Likewise, I don't think reducing your threat level would have any effect while soloing.
I think it's fair to say "oh, boost my aggro," but I don't think reducing threat level would have any significant effect on solo play.

3 hours ago, Archwizard said:

As was pointed out by Aquasurge above, imagine the potential of having 8 Equinoxes together in a trial. All of their Mend/Maim generation pools stacking from the same kills, yet only one needs to set their bubble at a time. Multiple Provoke auras stacking on each other.

Hmm. I suppose that's true, but I imagine it would also need a rather high level of coordination. Also, I got the impression Mend/Maim was gonna care about Power Strength which will make Overextended play havoc.

4 hours ago, Archwizard said:

It should still be possible for them to pass, it's just a matter of how efficiently they should compared to having specialists.

I think a team of specialists would be a lot more effective than a team of Equinii(?!), but maybe I'm missing something.

4 hours ago, Archwizard said:

the fact that Maim had a bleed effect in the first place was pretty ridiculous

Is it really that ridiculous? I've not found it to be such except in exceedingly low content. The stagger is some much-needed CC (probably no longer needed with new Rage).
Given the other changes, I don't see a real problem with letting it go... but that makes Maim even more passive than before.

4 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Besides, with Shield Gating, your party would actually have sustained invulnerability as long as the toggle was active, since you'd regenerate quickly enough to repel automatic fire

Good point. There are effects that reduce shield delay, so maybe just half delay and double speed? (and/or scale it with power strength?)

 

1 hour ago, Azamagon said:

What is the main plan here?

I think there should be a mix of "mediocre" and "strong" abilities, which could be nicely differentiated by energy costs (especially if the energy regen scaled down as it approached full capacity).

[Antiphoton]

Excuse me, I've noticed that this thread is addressing Equinox at the moment, but it can be hard to keep track of so many pages.

Can I please ask for a brief summary of what you discussed regarding her?

Thanks!

[--Q--uaint]

8 hours ago, Antiphoton said:

a brief summary

Well. We've been discussing this for... 3 pages now? That's not even counting previous discussion.

Primary points, I think:

Metamorphosis is too clunky; it also shouldn't un-cast your #3 and #4

Rest is too active and Rage is too lame

Pacify costs too much for too little effect, while Provoke presents a problem with day!Equinox wanting to be near enemies and allies all the time. Having to recast after using Metamorphosis is also a drag.

Mend is rather lackluster, while Maim is perhaps a little overtuned. There is a great desire for the "bomb" to be transferable to the other form.

 

I think that about does it? Other than that, it's mostly arguing about how things should be fixed... which is somewhat in flux because people are still kinda talking about it and OP hasn't finished going over everyone's discussion.

[--Q--uaint]

From the OP:

On 3/20/2014 at 6:53 PM, Archwizard said:

in order to cut them down the Maim

Shouldn't that be "in order to cut them down with Maim"?

On 3/20/2014 at 6:53 PM, Archwizard said:

Side note: Anybody else think Hydroid and Equinox's drop locations should be switched? It makes more sense for Equinox to drop from the planet with day and night cycles (so that Day Form parts drop during the day and Night Form parts drop during the night), especially since it can take actual dozens of runs to build her with the eight parts you'd need to collect. Being able to limit that pool just a smidge would help a lot.

...YES. I remember well my time farming her. It was... unpleasant?

[Archwizard]

3 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

From the OP:

Shouldn't that be "in order to cut them down with Maim"?

Wup.

Fixed.

4 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

...YES. I remember well my time farming her. It was... unpleasant?

Granting, I've been told that the potential to have to run Hek more than twice as many times for any frame might be even more unpleasant - particularly with his aim-botting magnetic shocks and limited vulnerability in his flight mode.

[--Q--uaint]

5 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

Granting, I've been told that the potential to have to run Hek more than twice as many times for any frame might be even more unpleasant - particularly with his aim-botting magnetic shocks and limited vulnerability in his flight mode.

Oh, I certainly agree, but Hek's fight needs to be fixed anyway.

[Azamagon]

Could also make it so you always get one day part and one night part on each boss kill?

[tnccs215]

13 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Could also make it so you always get one day part and one night part on each boss kill?

Well, the point of making Bps of Equinox a vay hek reqard is due to Earth Day/Night cicle. It would make possible for Day Aspect BPs to be a reward when it's day, and Night when is night.

[Azamagon]

1 minute ago, tnccs215 said:

Well, the point of making Bps of Equinox a vay hek reqard is due to Earth Day/Night cicle. It would make possible for Day Aspect BPs to be a reward when it's day, and Night when is night.

The same as Archwizard said, yes, but remember, this is farming her on VAY HEK. I had no direct issues farming that many times for Equinox when fighting Tyl Regor, since he is a very easy fight. But doing it that many times (even with night and day split up) against Vay Hek? No thanks, that would be a complete nightmare...

[--Q--uaint]

3 hours ago, Azamagon said:

But doing it that many times (even with night and day split up) against Vay Hek? No thanks, that would be a complete nightmare...

I guess we know why Hydroid is such a popular Warframe ;3

That said, his fight really needs to be re-reworked, and that would be a good "excuse" to do so.

[taiiat]

Vay Hek is a lot faster to complete since you don't need to wait for cutscenes or invulnerability and such...
and if the Reward Pools are split across time frames, that does make it easier to acquire any one Part in particular i suppose.

i don't particularly see that it should be that way, but it could potentially address some annoyances some Players have with the 8 or so Parts required.

[Antiphoton]

18 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Well. We've been discussing this for... 3 pages now? That's not even counting previous discussion.

Primary points, I think:

Metamorphosis is too clunky; it also shouldn't un-cast your #3 and #4

Rest is too active and Rage is too lame

Pacify costs too much for too little effect, while Provoke presents a problem with day!Equinox wanting to be near enemies and allies all the time. Having to recast after using Metamorphosis is also a drag.

Mend is rather lackluster, while Maim is perhaps a little overtuned. There is a great desire for the "bomb" to be transferable to the other form.

 

I think that about does it? Other than that, it's mostly arguing about how things should be fixed... which is somewhat in flux because people are still kinda talking about it and OP hasn't finished going over everyone's discussion.

Thank you very much =)

I agree with pretty much everything, it has been covered several times across multiple threads, and all of them seem to come to the same conclusions.

My personal opionion is that:

1. Metamorphosis should grant permanent stat changes, not decaying buffs.

2. I don't know yet what to do with Rest & Rage. I like Rest a lot, I understand that it can be kinda too powerful in some situations, so I wouldn't mind a little nerf. But then, seeing the CC Ivara, Inaros and Titania have on their 1st ability, I also want Rest to remain as it is. Rage is useless. I might start using it if it had its attack speed bonus removed.

3. Pacify & Provoke should not decay with range, and the effect should transfer to the active aspect without deactivating.

4. Maim is fine, I think. I consider it to be a nice example of a high risk-high reward ability. And Mend... It must be one of the (if not THE) most useless ultimates in the game. Besides needing to share its stack with Maim after switching forms, it should give a healing over time effect for allies in range, draining the stacked damage. Or use it to apply overshields.

 

Two more thoughts:

- Some people seem to react to these petitions saying that she doesn't need a buff. What we are asking is mostly QoL changes, but they would have a possitive impact on her performance, so we shouldn't discard the possibility of compensating these ideas with some nerfs. The less of them, the better, of course.

- I just realized, what if the game's engine simply doesn't allow the stacks of Pacify & Provoke and Mend & Maim to be shared accross both aspects? What if it cannot be done? I have absolutely zero notion about that. The only way I've come up with to test it, is to receive a status proc (8 seconds of toxin, for example), and see if it remains after switching forms. I guess it should, because the description of Metamorphosis says nothing about cleaning status procs, but honestly, I can't remember how they interact.

[Archwizard]

36 minutes ago, Antiphoton said:

My personal opinion is that:

1. Metamorphosis should grant permanent stat changes

2. Rest can be kinda too powerful in some situations, so I wouldn't mind a little nerf. But then, seeing the CC Ivara, Inaros and Titania have on their 1st ability, I also want Rest to remain as it is. Rage is useless.

3. Pacify & Provoke should not decay with range

4. Maim is fine, I think. And Mend... Besides needing to share its stack with Maim after switching forms, it should give a healing over time effect for allies in range, draining the stacked damage.

- Some people seem to react to these petitions saying that she doesn't need a buff. What we are asking is mostly QoL changes, but they would have a possitive impact on her performance, so we shouldn't discard the possibility of compensating these ideas with some nerfs. The less of them, the better, of course.

Pretty much what is decided on in the OP, along with a couple extras.

36 minutes ago, Antiphoton said:

- I just realized, what if the game's engine simply doesn't allow the stacks of Pacify & Provoke and Mend & Maim to be shared accross both aspects? What if it cannot be done? I have absolutely zero notion about that. The only way I've come up with to test it, is to receive a status proc (8 seconds of toxin, for example), and see if it remains after switching forms. I guess it should, because the description of Metamorphosis says nothing about cleaning status procs, but honestly, I can't remember how they interact.

Really, it's just a matter of how the two kits are coded. If they're coded as 7-8 different abilities across 2 frames with Metamorphosis swapping between the two, then it could be tricky; if they're coded as 4 different abilities with conditional effects, then it should be possible to allow, for instance, the energy pool from M&M to transfer evenly since it's just transferring one object within the same function. The way the rework is written in the OP, it would actually make the latter a more feasible iteration for all but R&R, and even then the tech in place for Quiver and Minelayer is arguably a more complex iteration (hell, R&R's practically a reflection of Sleep Arrow and Cloak Arrow's applications).

The way I see it, a Dayquinox should not be able to cast Provoke and Metamorphosis, to transfer Provoke to Nightquinox. However, there's no reason to have any limiters preventing a player from keeping Provoke toggled, casting Metamorphosis, and having Pacify already active in the other form instead of Provoke.

Edited August 21, 2016 by Archwizard

[Archwizard]

Been testing Titania since her release. Most of her powers are functional and I can't see much necessary for quality-of-life's sake, except on her ultimate. Of course, her ultimate isn't fully leveled on my Titania yet, so that could be a nonissue at max rank.

That being said...

• Diwata needs more damage. It's slower than Dex Pixia, with a lower damage bonus from melee mods than Dex Pixia gets from ranged weapons, but the blade gets no compensation for this. I'd almost be willing argue that Dex Pixia needs to be faster baseline too, but it seems potent enough with Speed Trigger.
• Her flight speed needs to be either faster, or affected by movement speed mods. I've seen no difference in speed between Rush and not having it equipped. I keep on trying to tap the boosters on her Archwing, but holding jump just makes her move upward a la Uranus missions.
• She needs an innate vacuum with Razorwing. Can't pick up anything when I'm floating around.

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, Archwizard said:

Been testing Titania since her release. Most of her powers are functional and I can't see much necessary for quality-of-life's sake

(except for that the Buffs Tribute gives to Players are garbage, right? they're extremely minor - they can be stacked sure, but to get anything even somewhat relevant, you need to use it like 4-8 times at once.... which is a lot of Energy and time)

[Archwizard]

Just now, taiiat said:

(except for that the Buffs Tribute gives to Players are garbage, right? they're extremely minor - they can be stacked sure, but to get anything even somewhat relevant, you need to use it like 4-8 times at once.... which is a lot of Energy and time)

True, but the stacking is part of the core functionality.

... Granting, they could do something like refund some energy on subsequent rebuffs I suppose. Small tweak.

[taiiat]

13 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

True, but the stacking is part of the core functionality.

absolutely. the stacking is a plus for Player engagement, not a problem that it's stackable.
the effect of each instance is just too minor to be useful in this game. the game is too fast paced for it.

...perhaps... what if the effect stacked, and multiplied on stacking, hm. so instead of +100% effect on each stack, it would be Multiplicative. something like stack it, then Multiply by 1.3 or something.

so for Thorns or Entagle for example (5% reflect / 5% slow), it would look like:
5% | 13% | 19.5% | 26% | 32.5%, Et Cetera
without changing the caps on the different Effects. just gets there faster, to not need to stand there and button mash for several seconds every time you encounter Enemies in order to get something relevant.

 

i'm not against some form of Energy refunding though.

Edited August 26, 2016 by taiiat

[Azamagon]

Umm... Titania is all about needing QoL imo. Even made a seperate thread about it:

TL;DR (plus some more thoughts, short and concise)
 
* Stats - Maybe more energy? She is on the low end of stats, really.

* Passive - Her Razorwing should have boosters a la Archwing, and her passive (along with mods boosting bulletjump) could buff the boosters' speed

* Spellbind - Needs to be faster to cast. And possibly target enemies a bit better (many people say this, only had a weird occurance with this ONCE myself though). This is the ability I find the least problematic overall (when using Natural Talent, that is).

* Tribute - Should either have:
1) Full buff-stack per pickup (too easy?)
2) Multitargetted aoe/cone/whatever (so, possibly many buffs appear per cast. Too samey as spellbind though, no?)
3) Quicker, onehanded, much cheaper (Probably the easiest and most differentiating change, so, my personal choice)
Any of those would be fine. How it is right now, this ability is generally a waste of time and energy though.
Also, the souls are very obstructive. Would be nice if they quickly shrank into floating orbs instead or something. And, as far as I can remember, you can't cast Tribute on Spellbound/Lantern'd enemies, which is a pointless restriction.

* Lantern - Should tether the target, which also would make it feel more different from Spellbind, rather than "enemy floater ability #2, now with damage and near unusable distraction". Target's damage taken should be stored a la Mind Control, to prevent trolling. Bit faster to cast? Needs to be castable on Spellbound enemies too.

* Razorwing - Allow companion during it (shrunk as well if a Sentinel?)? Sprint should indeed boost Razorwing's sprint. Her hitbox is way bigger than it looks too, which is annoying.

And honestly, her ulti weaponry is rather... bland, for exalted weaponry. It's just Veritux and Dual Decurion copy+pasted. Nothing unique at all (like, instead controlling razorflies as the "gun"?), which feels fairly disappointing, sadly.
EDIT: Not to mention, if you had your razorflies to be sent out as your "gun", you'd have moments when you can't shoot (unless called back with secondary fire?), thus giving the Diwata an actual reason to exist.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Azamagon

[taiiat]

6 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Lantern - Should tether the target

idunno, on paper, i saw it as saying Players could throw that Enemy around like the Lunaro ball, which would give some nice placement control - except.... you can barely move it. when you're trying to move it, that is. seems to float around doing whatever the hell it wants just fine though. :v

[Azamagon]

Just now, taiiat said:

idunno, on paper, i saw it as saying Players could throw that Enemy around like the Lunaro ball, which would give some nice placement control - except.... you can barely move it. when you're trying to move it, that is. seems to float around doing whatever the hell it wants just fine though. :v

As it is though, it's just clunky and unreliable. I'd rather it was tethered. Sure, it'd be a bit Magnetize-like, but that ability works, so why not this one?

[tnccs215]

Argh, I was going to write something on her here two days ago. Dammit!

Anyway: in her case, I'm more in agreement with @Archwizard and @taiiat than with @Azamagon. I've tested (and played her extensively), and while I feared she would be just a gimmick frame with one interesting power (Razorwing) and the rest of the kit simply thrown to her without any sense of synergy and balance (much like Zephyr, Limbo and, of course, Equinox), I was very pleasently surprised that DE has kept their newfound habit of releasing frames very tightly balanced and refined.

>>>The Good Stuff

Spoiler

 

 - Spellbind provides an interesting twist to the usual "area denial CC" first power that latest frames have. The ragdoll physics serve both has a balancing factor to prevent the usual "insta-gutting" that Ivara, Inaros and Equinox are so found of, while also providing a layer of added protection through the disarm. Cherry on the top is the Status immunity granted-- a great idea and mechanic I think was adapted from some of Equinox rework threads.

 - Tribute is no doubt the power I have more problems with, but even that one managed to shine in one way or another. It introduces a rather interesting new mechanic, that demands micromanagement without being suffocating. Much like RazorWing, it also takes Zephyr's "accuracy reduction as a form of defense" to a whole new level, something I really like: a good variation from the usual armor or damage reduction.

 - Latern, to me, and apparently not to some other members of this community (Azamagon included), is actually pretty much on point. It is innovative, being the first to utilize enemy aggro as a form of CC, and uses ragdoll physics in order to allow manipulation of the affected enemy. It also prevents cheesing by having a certain factor of unreliability, due to the very same physics. Regardless, if there is any problem, just deactivate and recast on another target.

 - Razorwing is possibly the best use of Archwing in this game, even compared to the base Archwing mode. I did not expect it to work so well. It allows for a substantial change of the usual "en-foot" paradigm, and is rather fun to use. Weapon damage is rather generous, and prevented from overpoweredness due to the absence of AoE damage. The new buff to its speed, in my opinion, make the constantly asked addition of a booster both redundant and unnecessary. Maybe even negative due to coming with the inability to go "up" using keys. The use of evasion as a defensive measure, again, is rather innovative, and a breath of fresh air.

 - Inter-ability synergy seems to be law on Titania. Even though Latern and Spellbind sometimes step on eachother's toes due to doing the same thing in a different manner, most of the time they actually benefit from the use of both-- not to mention how each has unique benefits. Tribute augments Razorwing (and teammates) through Dust, and is augmented by the fact both Spellbind and Latern allow easier target picking. The best thing, I think, is how all these abilities targeted nature makes them innately benefit from Razorwing's aerial superiority. Excelling on open maps, Titania is able to give incredible air support, both through CC, and through damage from above.

 - Stats equilibrium. This is a trend I've noticed with later Warframes, one I trully enjoy. Through making more stats (Range, Duration, Strength) affect more abilities, or making it so that the abilities only affected by what would be a dead stat extremely useful; as well as making the base ability stats already generous by themselves, DE has taken min-maxing away from its cheese, whitout completely taking it off the table. Newer frames are simpler and easier to mod (my "main build" on titania only has one corrupted mod, Fleeting Expertise), while still allowing some personalization; and even sacrificing some ability or another for some extra power on other abilities, without making the frame spiral into a cheese fest. 

 

>>>The Gripes

Spoiler

 

 - Small energy pool for a caster. Titania has a 150 energy pool at rank 30. She also possesses a channelled ability meant for constant use, an extremely energy intensive ability (Tribute), and an innate added difficulty to compensate for the energy use while on the channelled ability. I think she needs a 225 pool at rank 30.

 - Many of Tribute's buffs are either bugged or are useless. By my tests, Entangled doesn't seem to work, and Thorns is completely irrelevant due to armor scaling. The only truly useful buffs are Dust and Full Moon-- the latter one being the only one that has a 90 second duration, for some reason. The solutions are somewhat simple: fix (and buff) Entangled, and buff Thorns.

 - Tribute is too energy intensive. I use a max Efficiency build with a maxed Prime Flow and Energy Overflow. I rarely have many energy problems when flying around. But I am not your common folk a 50 energy cost that effectively requires more than your base energy reserves to max one buff is simply too much. Archwizard's idea of rewarding back some energy isa suitable solution.

 - Difficulty of collecting drops while on Razorwing. I don't believe anyone here flies to be hovering 3 feet above the ground to collect orbs and drops. An innate vaccum is on demand.

 

 

 

That's pretty much it. However, according to new topics, it seems Tribute's buff dissapear when on Razorwing mode. Seems like DE can't stop the bugs from appearing.

[EDIT]: I also wanted to give some closure to Equinox.

I'm thankful for all the fervent participation that there was in this thread about her _{and I'm oh so sorry for constantly letting my excitment getting ahead of your ADD, Archwizard. I trully am} , it was no doubt one of the best that I had in this forums.

I also have to say that, though I dissagree with some or another thing that Archwizard chose to put on the OP, I'm overall satisfied. It's not my rework, but it's a good rework, and even though I still think aggro mechanics blend in better with Rest&Rage cast type, I now think they won't be as bad as I once defended. Provoke's augment would actually work quite well with tandem with Maim-- though the range would have to be somewhat big, and Pacify's would grant a nice added protection.

All in all-- and I think most agree with this-- I think it's a good time to officially close the deal. For now. I will, at least. I'm possibly gonna focus on Titania for now. I'm enjoying her much more than I expected-- and unlike Equinox, who I loved for something that wasn't there, Titania I love for what she is, and not what she could've been.

Edited August 27, 2016 by tnccs215