Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[Azamagon]

14 hours ago, Archwizard said:

1) I've always agreed with Heat Procs being stackable.

2) I still disagree with having Fire Blast lose the lingering flames, since it has a lot more potential for an environmental effect than Fireballs do due to its size

3) and having a Fireball drop a ring of equivalent size would be too much for 25 energy. Not that Fireballs can't make the patches too, I suppose

4) but if Fire Blast is intended to be Ember's main defensive tool then it makes sense for it to have a lingering defense that's substantially stronger than Accelerant's stun. With the knockback alone, it wouldn't be. 

5) I don't see Fire Blast's ring and knockback wave as contradictory, when you remember that Ember was originally intended to be anti-Infested/Light Grineer (both groups of which are predominately melee); the ideal is that the ring isn't an area of damage, but a safe zone similar to an anti-melee version of Snow Globe. The issue there is primarily in implementation, since enemies aren't guaranteed a stun even with the augment.

6) Plus I don't see why Accelerant shouldn't have increased ticking speed as one of its effects instead of Fire Blast. Its name is literally derived from "accelerate". For instance, it could have the same damage boost across all elements, and for Heat in particular, double the ticks in the same time frame.

7) And while I will concede that the Phoenix is just one of a plethora of options rather than the end-all-be-all, having World on Fire be "the same, but with better damage" doesn't actually address its core issue: What the hell its place within the kit is.

8) If one of the core steps is putting distance between herself and melee enemies, where does a proximity damage effect like World on Fire come into play?

9) Let's review: Ember jumps down into a crowd of Infested and drops Accelerant. With every enemy afflicted, she slams down Fire Blast to fling them all away, using the lingering ring as a final stopping point to maintain distance from returning enemies and mark a personal "safe zone". On their way back, Ember shoots a barrage of Fireballs to pick them off or chain-stun them longer.
 

1) Alright, cool.

2) What do you mean by "potential"? As in, more likely to create them, logically? Or as in, it has more potential gameplay-wise? If the former, then, yeah, I guess, but this is Warframe, a lot of logic is often tossed aside for various gameplay reasons. If the latter, I couldn't disagreed more, it should be obvious why.

3) Too much? Then just tone down the numerical stuff on it (range, damage, whatever). And, more importantly, then why do you even suggest something like it yourself?
" Fireball now inflicts a stacking Heat DoT on the target, which can damage and inflict status upon enemies that come too close. If Fireball does not hit a target directly, a fire patch is created at the target area, a la Napalm Blasts. "
We are suggesting extremely similar effects... Yet you oppose it, just because I took it away from the Fire Blast (since it would be kind of redundant to have it there as well) and/or because the effect might be a bit bigger if using the ring of fire.
Considering the "spreading fire" mechanic you suggested, that could even make it potentially STRONGER than what I suggested, as then you can knock the enemy away with Fire Blast to make sure it hits multiple enemies etc.
Anywho, let's then say that the lingering flames (your own suggestion too) are too much / not fitting / whatever, for Fireball. Then what? It is one of the most bland and useless #1 skills in the game right now. It needs something to it so you'd like to use it at least on occasion.

4) Who said it has to be her main defensive tool? Currently, it kiiiiind of is semi-defensive (unreliable knockback and tiny non-cc ring). What I suggest makes it both highly offensive and defensive (higher damage, speed up heat procs + forced ragdoll knockback).

5) Really? Against the vast majority of the enemies in this game (who are ranged), it very much so is contradictive.
Also, the augment is seemingly broken (i.e. not working at all).

6) Good point (and interesting suggestion for how it could be tweaked), but then we lose the point of trying to give synergy in the OTHER abilities, going back to square 1, with Accelerant as the only synergistic ability in her kit.

7) Calling my suggestion "the same with better damage" is not fair dude -.-
I even said what the place in her kit would be: The enemy softener (and automated CC). It would have troubles killing enemies on its own, but it would weaken ANYTHING, letting you finish them off with Fireball / Fire Blast / Your weapons / Allies' stuff.

8) It comes into play if you wanna kite them (Note that WoF has the same range as Fire Blast's wave). Using the 2 abilities together correctly is an incredibly effective way to kite melee enemies.

9) Well, in that review, WoF can easily (and in a better way too) take Fireball's place, since it can also help with flanking enemies. If anything, it just shows how pointless Fireball is. If Fireball instead had some form of the lingering fire at its impact point, she wouldn't even need to wait for enemies to come back for that to be of use, she could make sure enemies die/stay where they are pushed back instead. Yeah, you could argue that Fire Blast ALSO could have a fiery defense, but then why not just cast Fireball at your feet if you want that defense (which does so without messing up where you have collected enemies with Fire Blast)?

[Archwizard]

By "potential", what I mean is that there are a lot of Fire-related potential mechanics and utilities that Ember has yet to delve into (Nezha too, for that matter), which Fire Blast could be the perfect vehicle for.

Cauterizing wounds for allies who pass through the flames. Using smoke to reduce visibility for enemies, affecting their accuracy and awareness. Using the flames as a vacuum to prevent enemies from escaping an area. Using the heat to soften incoming bullets, reducing their damage. That's just what I could come up with off the top of my head.
All things that would be best delivered through an environmental effect (as the defensive tools for all of our elementals have been since the removal of Overheat), to mark an area of safety for players more beyond just hazard for enemies. Through Fire Blast, it could essentially be like an inverse Snow Globe for Ember, being more potent against her focus (melee enemies) with a more limited general utility (for ranged attackers).
If any of these were delivered through Fireball however, the utility would have to be diminished (primarily in terms of radius) to account for Fireball's energy economy and ability to deliver its effects at a range; by contrast, Fire Blast costs just short of an ultimate, so it gets a lot of leeway provided that it's not overloaded on mechanics (and let's be honest, looking at Oberon, that "no overloads" limiter is just a guideline at best to DE - I just think overloading is cheating).

5 hours ago, Azamagon said:

And, more importantly, then why do you even suggest something like it yourself?
" Fireball now inflicts a stacking Heat DoT on the target, which can damage and inflict status upon enemies that come too close. If Fireball does not hit a target directly, a fire patch is created at the target area, a la Napalm Blasts. "
We are suggesting extremely similar effects... Yet you oppose it, just because I took it away from the Fire Blast (since it would be kind of redundant to have it there as well) and/or because the effect might be a bit bigger if using the ring of fire.

21 hours ago, Archwizard said:

having a Fireball drop a ring of equivalent size would be too much for 25 energy. Not that Fireballs can't make the patches too, I suppose

As you yourself noted, I'm not opposed to having a lingering flames mechanic on Fireball - just to removing it from Fire Blast.
(Sidenote: I notice you keep on writing lists of changes and following arguments as if you didn't look at the OP first, but then reference the OP later... it makes it confusing whether I need to explain what's already in the OP or if you're just reiterating support for it, especially when you try to turn my own suggestions against... arguments for them. It all sounds very cyclical.)

As for 100% Status Fire Blast being broken, that's why I wrote to have the area filled in more and for Fire Blast's ring to naturally tick twice as quickly, so as to catch more enemies before their velocity pulls them through the flames (in fact, that was part of the main consideration for having Heat procs stack, so that the potential damage wasn't lost). And as for not having synergy with the knockback wave, that's why I had the wave moved to the augment, so you could choose whether to clear the area and give yourself breathing room, or just stunlock enemies where they are. (Although in hindsight, that would be an interesting Charged mechanic.)

5 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Calling my suggestion "the same with better damage" is not fair dude -.-
I even said what the place in her kit would be: The enemy softener (and automated CC). It would have troubles killing enemies on its own, but it would weaken ANYTHING, letting you finish them off with Fireball / Fire Blast / Your weapons / Allies' stuff.

First of all, calm down - it's not a personal attack, it's just critique. Safe space.

Secondly, if it's doing %-based damage without a maximum limiter (like say, Viral damage has), then it is still doing raw damage, not just "softening" EHP. The %-based damage would simply increase the upper-end effectiveness of World on Fire, in some cases making it the only method of dealing significant damage against high-level Infested or armor-stripped Grineer (hello Corrosive Projection) - especially with Accelerant to make it double-dip in Power Strength. And as you mentioned, it's completely automated in doing so.
So inherently, yes, it would be mechanically no different from now... with better damage scaling. 

Edited November 10, 2016 by Archwizard

[taiiat]

i think i like that. both Fireball and Fire Blast leave an environmental Effect, with the one for Fireball being more akin to Freeze but made out of Fire, while Fire Blast has Utility past Fire Status.

i'm also totally onboard with Ember exploring the various facets of Thermal Energy, from cauterizing wounds to 'rolling coal' to... atmosphere vacuum (i know there's a better term for this, the right term, but i just can't think of it right now) to immolation/blast furnace, or whatever else.
Thermal Energy certainly can inspire many cool things.

 

(interesting idea spawned from the past couple posts and thinking about this - Ember having some sort of Damage Bonus for every instance of Fire Status on an Enemy - not sure whether that would be better as adding small scaling Percentage Damage or a Percentage Damage Bonus. either way sounds cool, stacking the flames to intensify the burn)

Edited November 10, 2016 by taiiat

[Archwizard]

23 hours ago, taiiat said:

(interesting idea spawned from the past couple posts and thinking about this - Ember having some sort of Damage Bonus for every instance of Fire Status on an Enemy - not sure whether that would be better as adding small scaling Percentage Damage or a Percentage Damage Bonus. either way sounds cool, stacking the flames to intensify the burn)

Well, the OP already calls for her passive to increase her Power Strength for every instance of Fire status on enemies... so any effect that grants her Strength-scaled mitigation would suffice to make that work.

_{Y'know, as long as it isn't Overheat.}

Edited November 11, 2016 by Archwizard

[taiiat]

4 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Well, the OP already calls for her passive to increase her Power Strength for every instance of Fire status on enemies

(that probably explains where i got it from, having seen it before and discussion about Fire making me remember having seen that - derp)

this may be slightly different though, i don't know if the game would apply a Power Strength Bonus to a running DoT and Et Cetera - but whether it does or not, bonus Power Strength and bonus Damage (specifically Damage of Fire DoT which i didn't specify but was thinking it) aren't quite the same.

if i assume already running Damage wouldn't update if Power Strength increased (i could test this sometime but that isn't right this moment), then a Power Strength Bonus increases Damage on future casts as well as any Power Strength scaled effects obviously. while bonus Damage for Fire DoT allows stacked Fire DoT to become more effective.
the former does also do the latter, but only on future uses, not what has been already used. and i could then see room to have both, just ofc with values that keep in mind that both exist under the same Causality.

[Archwizard]

Now my question is, where in Ember's kit would she have room for an ability that melts armor, to complement her skills as a threat to light-armored enemies...

[RealPandemonium]

4 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Now my question is, where in Ember's kit would she have room for an ability that melts armor, to complement her skills as a threat to light-armored enemies...

In Damage 3.0 where absolute armor bandaids are no longer necessary to kill Grineer above level 50 in a reasonable manner.

[taiiat]

in the meantime the game could get away with Ember being able to 'chip weaken' Armor when stacking Fire Status.
on top of the couple other things it's already slated to do here.

as it's over time and requires stacking it over and over to get large amounts of result - so definitely not going to replace basically any other form of dealing with Armor.

[--Q--uaint]

RE: Nyx

I have been and am still of the opinion that Nyx's passive should be to stun enemies that deal damage to her.

@Azamagon's suggestions for Mind Control, especially allowing direct control from Absorb.
Given the suggested changes, I think it should be castable on friendly specters as well.

Having Psychic Bolts disarm its targets would be awfully nice, but I'm thinking there's another good route:
The ability would be named Telekinesis, and be a targeted cast with a low channeling cost.
Your chosen victim would be lifted helpless into the air, suffering damage over time.
If the victim died while being forcechoked, enemies near the victim would be Terrified.
If Telekinesis is canceled while the victim is still alive, the victim will be flung towards your cursor and deal % damage to those in the way (much like Snowglobe).

Chaos'd enemies who are also procced with Radiation should be unable to detect (and or deal damage to) Tenno, and have a chance to proc Radiation whenever they deal damage to other enemies.

 

RE: Ember

IMO, Heat procs being straight stackable is maybe not the best solution, particularly if they can chip away armor. How about this:
A Heat proc will override any less-powerful heat proc and replace it.
If a Heat proc is not at least 10% stronger than the currently-applied proc, it will add 10% of its power to the current one, and extend the duration by one tick.
This makes some way to accelerate Heat procs quite desirable.

For her passive, I think she should get energy whenever an enemy dies while fire procced. Bonus power strength is nice and thematic, but it would be a little weird IMO given the power strength snapshotting on WoF.

I'm very partial to the idea of Fireball having Fire Blast's ring and/or some other static DoT, and no one particularly seems opposed to it other than the idea of taking it away from Fire Blast.

On 11/9/2016 at 5:07 PM, Archwizard said:

Plus I don't see why Accelerant shouldn't have increased ticking speed as one of its effects instead of Fire Blast. Its name is literally derived from "accelerate". For instance, it could have the same damage boost across all elements, and for Heat in particular, double the ticks in the same time frame.

I like the idea of "spending" ticks of Heat proc rather than simply duplicating them, and Accelerant is already a strong enough buff on its own.
And if the ticks of Heat proc are actually spent by this double-rate thing, IMO it would be bad for Accelerant to have it since it would make it much harder to keep enemies on fire. (which is especially important given my ideas on how Heat procs should stack)

On 11/9/2016 at 5:07 PM, Archwizard said:

Ember was originally intended to be anti-Infested/Light Grineer (both groups of which are predominately melee); the ideal is that the ring isn't an area of damage, but a safe zone similar to an anti-melee version of Snow Globe.

Protecting yourself from melee enemies is as simple as parkour in 90% of cases, and the rest of the time Fire Blast wouldn't help even if it caught everyone who entered it. Ancients, Scorpions, and now Bailiffs will just hook you from outside the ring. Bailiffs will also happily ignore your fire proc as they continue their uber charge attack through your squishy face. I can't think of any melee enemy other than those that really deserve an ability with their name on it.

Given the above paragraph, I don't think Fire Blast creating a "safe space" is terribly helpful or useful. (I mean, you could buff the range but that'd get silly pretty quickly)

On 11/10/2016 at 2:14 PM, Archwizard said:

Cauterizing wounds for allies who pass through the flames. Using smoke to reduce visibility for enemies, affecting their accuracy and awareness. Using the flames as a vacuum to prevent enemies from escaping an area. Using the heat to soften incoming bullets, reducing their damage.

I think status-proc-cleansing is Nezha's thing. I guess Ember could get it as well, but then it'd just be Hallowed Ground.

Giving Ember an invisibility AoE as a #3 seems silly when Ivara already has that on a #1 along with other effects.
Giving benefits to allies inside the ring of fire seems not so great in general, since it's pretty small and DE doesn't seem to like camping much.

Preventing enemies from escaping the flames is asynergistic with the rest of the ability, though, since the initial blast flings them away.

Here be my proposal:

First, a note on its interaction with Heat procs: Speeding their ticks up would be a nice, interesting mechanic... but I was thinking it might also work to just have it deal bonus damage equal to all the damage a given proc will do.
Either would create synergy since it benefits from the procs her other abilities inflict... which plays into the idea that @taiiatproposed a while back that WoF should be mostly insignificant until other abilities are brought in to synergize with it.

As @Azamagon suggests, remove the ring of fire and refocus the ability on dealing damage and actually succeeding at hard CC. This makes it a pretty bland ability, so I suggest either adding a short-ranged blind or some sort of mobility to the ability.
This synergizes nicely with my idea for a new augment: Bring back the ring of fire, with 100% proc chance, and make the initial blast suck enemies in like Prolonged Paralysis.

On 11/9/2016 at 5:07 PM, Archwizard said:

And while I will concede that the Phoenix is just one of a plethora of options rather than the end-all-be-all, having World on Fire be "the same, but with better damage" doesn't actually address its core issue: What the hell its place within the kit is.

Fair warning, I have disliked the idea of Phoenix basically since I first read it. It's an interesting idea, but it just doesn't seem to fit.

Your accusation that the WoF change is "the same, but with better damage" is mostly valid, but it does address the issue of it being quite cheesy at low levels and only a CC tool at high.
IMO, WoF's place in her kit is her "damage mitigation" skill. It actively targets enemies who aren't CC'd, and fixes that problem for a relatively nominal cost. The rate-limiting keeps you on your toes while still helping to stem the tide of faceroll coming your way.
Any damage it does is helpful, but it's not ultimately well-designed to be a killing skill.

Here's an idea: the initial damage WoF does is flat, but the Heat procs it inflicts are %health damage. This percentage would be somewhere in the range of 3-5% per tick, but wouldn't scale with power strength since the chance of the proc already does.
This change would mean that she can only single-dip with power strength (aside from chance) on her %health damage, by casting Accelerant.

[taiiat]

4 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

IMO, Heat procs being straight stackable is maybe not the best solution, particularly if they can chip away armor. How about this:
A Heat proc will override any less-powerful heat proc and replace it.
If a Heat proc is not at least 10% stronger than the currently-applied proc, it will add 10% of its power to the current one, and extend the duration by one tick.
This makes some way to accelerate Heat procs quite desirable.

 

Given the above paragraph, I don't think Fire Blast creating a "safe space" is terribly helpful or useful.

there is no logical reason for Fire DoT to not perform like other Status DoT just because of one Warframe.
you don't change the rules to suit one, the rules govern all and everyone abides by them.

regardless of what Ember can do with Fire Status, it should stack. 'but this or that' - make it work with stacking Fire Status. that means tweaking Damage values, tweaking Effects from stacking Fire Status, the works.

ex. with stacking Fire Status chipping Armor i had values like -7% Current Armor faced by Fire DoT for every instance of Fire DoT higher than one.
Fire Status being completely stackable is not a problem, because the Fire Status mechanic conforms to the rules, and is balanced in context of the rules.

 

if one wished to hide inside of it, it would mostly be useful vs Infested Melee Units in that regard - but it's not like the Ability can only be at your feet. you can put it anywhere.
like Chokepoints?

ofcourse if other facets are given to it to have Support whether that be reducing Ranged Damage or reducing Accuracy, then it provides more use than just Stunning Melee Enemies.

[--Q--uaint]

Just now, taiiat said:

there is no logical reason for Fire DoT to not perform like other Status DoT just because of one Warframe.
you don't change the rules to suit one, the rules govern all and everyone abides by them.

I wasn't saying it should be changed specifically because of one warframe, I was saying it's already different so we may as well respect that difference while still giving it some stackability.

That said, I'm not opposed to it being normally stackable and my suggestions won't fall apart if that's the case.

Just now, taiiat said:

but it's not like the Ability can only be at your feet. you can put it anywhere.
like Chokepoints?

Sounds like a job for new!Fireball. Running around to put them down in various places seems... annoying at best.

Just now, taiiat said:

ofcourse if other facets are given to it to have Support whether that be reducing Ranged Damage or reducing Accuracy, then it provides more use than just Stunning Melee Enemies.

Thing is, it's not reasonable for it to be competitive with other defensive abilities, and it's not really useful if it's not.

[taiiat]

9 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

I wasn't saying it should be changed specifically because of one warframe, I was saying it's already different so we may as well respect that difference while still giving it some stackability.

Thing is, it's not reasonable for it to be competitive with other defensive abilities, and it's not really useful if it's not.

but it isn't different in a good way, it's different in a bad way.
different for the sake of being different isn't really helping. unique functionality with a purpose is great, but this isn't.

it doesn't need to directly compete against any one Ability. 'the Oberon of Defensive Abilities' (jack of all trades) is fine from a Game Design perspective considering Ember is otherwise 31 flavors of Fire themed DPS with a bit of CC.

[Archwizard]

3 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

I have been and am still of the opinion that Nyx's passive should be to stun enemies that deal damage to her.

Having Psychic Bolts disarm its targets would be awfully nice, but I'm thinking there's another good route:
The ability would be named Telekinesis, and be a targeted cast with a low channeling cost.
Your chosen victim would be lifted helpless into the air, suffering damage over time.
If the victim died while being forcechoked, enemies near the victim would be Terrified.
If Telekinesis is canceled while the victim is still alive, the victim will be flung towards your cursor and deal % damage to those in the way (much like Snowglobe).

Not sure about that kind of passive for Nyx, since that would probably screw with Absorb (which is the only time when she wants enemies to be hitting her in the first place...).

I don't object to a Telekinesis skill replacing Psychic Bolts if it fits the kit... that being said, that write-up bears a lot of similarities to Lantern, and I still have no idea how it would interact with Mind Control, Chaos or Absorb. Especially the latter two, with the fear ceasing enemy attacks.

3 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Chaos'd enemies who are also procced with Radiation should be unable to detect (and or deal damage to) Tenno

Speaking of "that would probably screw with Absorb"...

3 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

IMO, Heat procs being straight stackable is maybe not the best solution, particularly if they can chip away armor. How about this:
A Heat proc will override any less-powerful heat proc and replace it.
If a Heat proc is not at least 10% stronger than the currently-applied proc, it will add 10% of its power to the current one, and extend the duration by one tick.
This makes some way to accelerate Heat procs quite desirable.

Hey, I never agreed to have Heat procs chip away armor. I suggested it could be an option for one of her abilities to; chipping armor as a proc is Corrosive's deal.

That being said, it's a counterintuitive design for Ember's whole kit to be built around one type of proc that she can't stack; if it was just about CC, any one of her abilities would do, having 3 different delivery methods for the exact same effect is the same complaint I keep hearing about Limbo. There's no point to having three different ways to inflict the proc if she can only have one up at a time - which leads back to the defaulting to World on Fire, I might add.
Meanwhile, Saryn gets damage-type variety in her kit AND all of her damage sources have their own stacking mechanisms. Leaving Ember out when her whole toolkit relies on applying the one type doesn't... make... any... sense!

3 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

I like the idea of "spending" ticks of Heat proc rather than simply duplicating them, and Accelerant is already a strong enough buff on its own.
And if the ticks of Heat proc are actually spent by this double-rate thing, IMO it would be bad for Accelerant to have it since it would make it much harder to keep enemies on fire. (which is especially important given my ideas on how Heat procs should stack)

... Did you just suggest your own variation and then veto the whole idea on the grounds that your variation wouldn't work?

3 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Protecting yourself from melee enemies is as simple as parkour in 90% of cases, and the rest of the time Fire Blast wouldn't help even if it caught everyone who entered it. Ancients, Scorpions, and now Bailiffs will just hook you from outside the ring. Bailiffs will also happily ignore your fire proc as they continue their uber charge attack through your squishy face. I can't think of any melee enemy other than those that really deserve an ability with their name on it.

Given the above paragraph, I don't think Fire Blast creating a "safe space" is terribly helpful or useful. (I mean, you could buff the range but that'd get silly pretty quickly)

Oh, okay, so you've never been hit by a Crawler or Leaper or Charger or Powerfist or Butcher or Prodman before because Parkour alone is at least 90% effective against them, right?
... If "It's not a problem if you dodge it" was a reasonable response, we wouldn't have mitigation or CC effects - you can't expect everyone to dodge every hit.
Besides, Defense objectives can't jump. (Conveniently for this argument, they can't be hooked either.)

Which is why I suggested giving players an advantage for staying in the ring (like reducing enemy accuracy on those kinds of hooks) and increasing the ticking speed/effective damage area by filling in the ring for when enemies charge in.

I'm not sure why you decry its current potential for CC, but then add

3 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

refocus the ability on dealing damage and actually succeeding at hard CC.

when the lingering area with 100% status chance per tick has greater potential to ensnare enemies for long periods than the blast wave alone, which would just knockdown/back enemies at best at its core.

3 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

I think status-proc-cleansing is Nezha's thing. I guess Ember could get it as well, but then it'd just be Hallowed Ground.

Giving Ember an invisibility AoE as a #3 seems silly when Ivara already has that on a #1 along with other effects.
Giving benefits to allies inside the ring of fire seems not so great in general, since it's pretty small and DE doesn't seem to like camping much.

Preventing enemies from escaping the flames is asynergistic with the rest of the ability, though, since the initial blast flings them away.

I specifically avoided using the word "cleansing" because I agree with you about Nezha - I said "cauterizing" in the sense of healing allies standing in the flames.

I never said Fire Blast would be an invisibility ring, just that it could reduce enemy visibility and accuracy. Enemies would probably move to investigate the fire patch, for starters. 
I doubt "camping" is the issue, given the existence of Defenses and the fact that literally every Elemental frame has a camping ability, from Volt day 1 to Atlas. Hell, I consider the ability to lay environmental effects as part of the qualifications to be an Elemental. (Fireball is just... really tiny.)

And the OP already lists for the knockback wave to be pushed to the augment - at any rate, the only skill in her set where it makes sense for her to have a knockback is Fireball...

3 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Fair warning, I have disliked the idea of Phoenix basically since I first read it. It's an interesting idea, but it just doesn't seem to fit.

To be honest, I haven't felt quite right about keeping it since Focus was added with a very similar type of effect "leave your body behind" effect. Doubly so since War Within.

It's mostly still there because I disagree with a lot of the replacements I've heard suggested, since at best they all seek to make World on Fire supplement her damage without adding any mechanics/skill-ceiling to her kit outside of the passive damage it provides.

3 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Here's an idea: the initial damage WoF does is flat, but the Heat procs it inflicts are %health damage. This percentage would be somewhere in the range of 3-5% per tick, but wouldn't scale with power strength since the chance of the proc already does.
This change would mean that she can only single-dip with power strength (aside from chance) on her %health damage, by casting Accelerant.

... like Chroma?

Edited November 18, 2016 by Archwizard

[taiiat]

10 hours ago, Archwizard said:

... like Chroma?

wait what? Fire Ward has a flat value Aura with a Status Chance - but that is a normal Status Chance.
Toxin Ward is the only one that deals scaling Damage.

unless you were just talking about the mechanic of having a Fire Aura around you.

[Archwizard]

12 minutes ago, taiiat said:

wait what? Fire Ward has a flat value Aura with a Status Chance - but that is a normal Status Chance.
Toxin Ward is the only one that deals scaling Damage.

I meant compared to Toxin Ward, yeah, but it's the same principle: While Toxin Ward is active, Chroma can't apply any new Toxin procs to the target, as justification for it dealing scaling damage. In ChronoEclipse's rework, Ember wouldn't be able to stack procs, just overwrite them with stronger ones - but since World on Fire deals scaling damage, it would always overwrite on targets it didn't instantly kill (after all, generally it's the explosions that kill low-level targets long before the procs do... especially as the explosions don't always proc).
So once again, no reason not to always have WoF up and ignore all of her other abilities.

It makes sense for Chroma because his kit doesn't revolve around 1 element - he's the Jack of All Trades Elemental, who offsets his lesser control of each individual one through versatility and having stronger neutral-elemental effectiveness through Vex Armor.
Saryn specializes in Toxin elements, Ember specializes in Heat elements. They should get specialization bonuses.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Archwizard

[taiiat]

sorry, just automatically jumped to Fire Ward because we're talking about fire.
you're absolutely correct.

[tnccs215]

quick drop by:

Wouldn't the "consecutive multiplier" present in abilities like Rip Line, Atlas' 1, Rhino's 1, etc; be a good addition to FireBall? That seems to be an ability demanding spam, and this mechanic rewards that quite nicely.

[Azamagon]

Also just some more quick note from me:

Fire Blast
Why do I so heavily prefer Fire Blast to be more about the blast wave than the ring of fire? Well, for starters, (purely subjective here), i find the wave far more fun and satisfying to use than trying to get some use out the ring. Second, removing the blast wave (and putting it purely on the augment) wouldn't fit the ability name so well, imo. Third, if you wanna try and use the ring of fire, it gets very tedious with all the excessive running (hence why I'd like the ring of fire to be on Fireball too). Fourth, the ring lacks great synergy with the blast (unless against infested or pure melee, maybe).

I dunno, I am actually surprised a lot of you guys want to make Fire Blast to be more about the ring than the blast wave, when the ring could be what differentiates the currently nigh-useless Fireball instead.

World on Fire
" since at best they all seek to make World on Fire supplement her damage without adding any mechanics/skill-ceiling to her kit outside of the passive damage it provides. "
Is there something wrong with that though? Not everything needs to be very skillrequiring or uberactive. Sometimes, it's fun to use passive damageskills (Ever played Dota 2? Necrophos has an interesting kit in this regard), as it promotes mobility and kiting (which in itself, especially with Warframe's parkour, can require mild amounts of skill, but at least lots of activity).

Edited November 18, 2016 by Azamagon

[--Q--uaint]

7 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Not sure about that kind of passive for Nyx, since that would probably screw with Absorb (which is the only time when she wants enemies to be hitting her in the first place...)

Thinking about it some more, I think it'd be best if the passive only triggered on health damage. Which fixes the Absorb issue.

7 hours ago, Archwizard said:

I don't object to a Telekinesis skill replacing Psychic Bolts if it fits the kit... that being said, that write-up bears a lot of similarities to Lantern, and I still have no idea how it would interact with Mind Control, Chaos or Absorb. Especially the latter two, with the fear ceasing enemy attacks.

Its role would mainly be damage; I was considering having the victim explode, but that seemed like it would be a little... overdone? Fear seems like a nice middle ground.

Lantern is basically a randomly floating Bastille that attracts enemies closer. Telekinesis would raise the enemy up like Well of Life does, to make it easier to kill for CC and give it a better chance of actually going where you fling it.
Again, my intent was to have it be a damage ability with a bit of hard or soft CC thrown in.

I'm thinking if you used it on your MC target, it would be free/reduced cost. Other than that, no change.

I was thinking the range and duration would be short, so you could use it to clear the area immediately around you of Chaos'd enemies without dealing damage to them and drawing aggro.

For Absorb, it should almost certainly be fully usable during Absorb... and it would count as allied damage so you could use a % of enemy health to boost your Absorb damage.
Again, I don't expect the fear to be a large factor since you have a great degree of control and the AoE should be small.

7 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Speaking of "that would probably screw with Absorb"...

Perhaps add an exception for Absorb that forces them to aggro on you if they're under Chaos? Seems like a workable synergy to me.

7 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Hey, I never agreed to have Heat procs chip away armor. I suggested it could be an option for one of her abilities to; chipping armor as a proc is Corrosive's deal.

That's why I put in the "if". That said, it seems like a good niche for Fire Blast to fill, giving it further damage buffing/utility that wouldn't necessarily work for Accelerant.

7 hours ago, Archwizard said:

That being said, it's a counterintuitive design for Ember's whole kit to be built around one type of proc that she can't stack; if it was just about CC

That discussion was specifying how it should stack. It was more an idea of "meeting DE in the middle" since they seem to want Heat to not stack.

7 hours ago, Archwizard said:

... Did you just suggest your own variation and then veto the whole idea on the grounds that your variation wouldn't work?

No. Accelerant's role is to make the enemies easy pickings by buffing your damage and CCing them. Making them stop being on fire faster is therefore not in keeping with the ability's main role.

Fire Blast, OTOH, would have the role of making the enemies die or at least go away. Adding that effect would make it quite possible that any existing Heat procs would deliver their damage before the enemies returned to their feet. Sounds like a good fit to me.

7 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Oh, okay, so you've never been hit by a Crawler or Leaper or Charger or Powerfist or Butcher or Prodman before because Parkour alone is at least 90% effective against them, right?

"never" =/= "90%"

I can't remember a time I've been hit by them other than when I was disabled by other enemies, busy with something else, or directly engaging them with melee.

7 hours ago, Archwizard said:

... If "It's not a problem if you dodge it" was a reasonable response, we wouldn't have mitigation or CC effects - you can't expect everyone to dodge every hit.

This is a silly point to make. These enemies are trivial to deal with if you just keep moving. In fact, Butchers in particular frequently miss you when you're standing stock still.

There are many, many things in Warframe that it's not reasonable to expect you to dodge. Hitscan attacks and Bombard rockets are some of the main culprits there.
I certainly can't expect everyone to dodge every hit, but someone who can't dodge them probably can't dodge anything reliably. These people would be best off getting a Chroma or Valkyr and just not bothering to get out of the way of anything.

7 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Besides, Defense objectives can't jump. (Conveniently for this argument, they can't be hooked either.)

This is a fair point, but it seems silly to have an ability that's virtually useless outside of one specific environment and not even that good in the one it's made for. Snowglobe is the same energy cost, better CC, and useful in almost any situation (Especially with the Bombard nerf).

7 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Which is why I suggested giving players an advantage for staying in the ring (like reducing enemy accuracy on those kinds of hooks) and increasing the ticking speed/effective damage area by filling in the ring for when enemies charge in.

I suppose it could work like a placed Turbulence, but would its effects stack? Would it stack with different Embers casting it? Turbulence is fine in that regard because it moves with Zephyr, isn't spammable, and Zephyr isn't all that great outside of it.
Ember would be able to stack it/leave it, and is quite effective in other respects.

There's probably a balance point where it isn't more useful than Turbulence, but I think it's reasonable to just pursue a different avenue rather than trying to find a balance point that may not even exist.

7 hours ago, Archwizard said:

when the lingering area with 100% status chance per tick has greater potential to ensnare enemies for long periods than the blast wave alone, which would just knockdown/back enemies at best at its core.

Long hard CC, yes, but it's also in a very small unmoddable radius. Giving it a large AoE ragdoll would make it more useful in more content. Giving the option of turning it into a strong lockdown skill with the augment seems like the best of both worlds.

8 hours ago, Archwizard said:

I specifically avoided using the word "cleansing" because I agree with you about Nezha - I said "cauterizing" in the sense of healing allies standing in the flames.

That seems awfully weird to me. I guess it could work, but Nezha already has healing as well :V

8 hours ago, Archwizard said:

I never said Fire Blast would be an invisibility ring, just that it could reduce enemy visibility and accuracy. Enemies would probably move to investigate the fire patch, for starters. 

Which just makes my argument even better. Invisibility is stronger than reducing accuracy. Unless you mean it would prevent them from attacking in while still aggroing them? Now, that has potential. I dunno if I could get behind it, though, given how OP that would be.

8 hours ago, Archwizard said:

I doubt "camping" is the issue, given the existence of Defenses and the fact that literally every Elemental frame has a camping ability, from Volt day 1 to Atlas. Hell, I consider the ability to lay environmental effects as part of the qualifications to be an Elemental. (Fireball is just... really tiny.)

Sure, but none of them would restrict your movement so thoroughly as Fire Blast does. Electric Shield and Tectonics just protect an angle of attack, and Snowglobe can be huge (and is moddable).

Again, I think making the ring of fire modified by range would be a mistake... and I think making it a buffing ability would be quite counterintuitive so long as it's not modifiable by range.

8 hours ago, Archwizard said:

the only skill in her set where it makes sense for her to have a knockback is Fireball...

Opinion.

8 hours ago, Archwizard said:

It's mostly still there because I disagree with a lot of the replacements I've heard suggested

Fair enough. I like keeping WoF as it is over Phoenix, though.

Just now, Archwizard said:

In ChronoEclipse's rework, Ember wouldn't be able to stack procs, just overwrite them with stronger ones

This isn't actually true. I proposed that weaker/parity heat procs could enhance the damage and duration of the existing heat proc.

Just now, Archwizard said:

So once again, no reason not to always have WoF up and ignore all of her other abilities.

Not true at all. WoF prioritizes enemies who aren't CC'd. This means it will set them up with a scaling DoT that you can use her other abilities to manipulate or enhance.
Fireball will boost and lengthen it slightly, Accelerant will boost it massively, and Fire Blast will make it hit faster.

Just now, tnccs215 said:

Wouldn't the "consecutive multiplier" present in abilities like Rip Line, Atlas' 1, Rhino's 1, etc; be a good addition to FireBall? That seems to be an ability demanding spam, and this mechanic rewards that quite nicely.

I think it might be a little overkill if Fireball also has an area-denial effect, but otherwise definitely.

Just now, Azamagon said:

Fire Blast

This.
What do you think of my idea for changing the augment?

[Azamagon]

16 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

This.

What do you think of my idea for changing the augment?

You mean, pull them in and add a ring of fire with 100% status proc? Well, that's really good, potentially too good. Nothing I'm opposing too hard, but it removes a tad of the point of moving the ring over to Fireball (not a big deal though).

Just to clarify: Are you for or against the idea on tacking the "heat-proc speedup" on Fire Blast as its added utility?

Edited November 18, 2016 by Azamagon

[--Q--uaint]

Just now, Azamagon said:

Just to clarify: Are you for or against the idea on tacking the "heat-proc speedup" on Fire Blast as its added utility?

I'm for, at least if it's gonna focus on the blast.

[Archwizard]

4 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Opinion.

Empirically fact.

Accelerant and World on Fire both are radial damage skills. Having a knockback wave on Fire Blast pushes enemies out of the effective range of Accelerant and World on Fire (the same complaint you keep making about its own fire circle, might I add). Which means after the knockback, the only skill that still has a relevant effective range is Fireball.

Accelerant can be argued, if you tap Accelerant before the knockback but not after. World on Fire on the other hand, either requires that the knockback be insignificant or your Range be more significant.

4 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Why do I so heavily prefer Fire Blast to be more about the blast wave than the ring of fire? Well, for starters, (purely subjective here), i find the wave far more fun and satisfying to use than trying to get some use out the ring. Second, removing the blast wave (and putting it purely on the augment) wouldn't fit the ability name so well, imo. Third, if you wanna try and use the ring of fire, it gets very tedious with all the excessive running (hence why I'd like the ring of fire to be on Fireball too). Fourth, the ring lacks great synergy with the blast (unless against infested or pure melee, maybe).

I dunno, I am actually surprised a lot of you guys want to make Fire Blast to be more about the ring than the blast wave, when the ring could be what differentiates the currently nigh-useless Fireball instead.

In my eyes, the knockback wave only exists because players wanted to replicate Eximus powers (which doesn't really have precedent - Mobile Snow Globes aren't possible, for instance), and I get a surprising amount of chokepoint defense out of the ring itself; it would be harder to defend a terminal by placing Fireballs alone. It was a Fire Blast before it had the wave because it had the instant burst of radial damage that none of her other abilities has.

Besides, there's no reason she can't have both the ring and Fireballs in a system where her damage output relies on proc stacking.

4 hours ago, Azamagon said:

" since at best they all seek to make World on Fire supplement her damage without adding any mechanics/skill-ceiling to her kit outside of the passive damage it provides. "
Is there something wrong with that though? Not everything needs to be very skillrequiring or uberactive. Sometimes, it's fun to use passive damageskills (Ever played Dota 2? Necrophos has an interesting kit in this regard), as it promotes mobility and kiting (which in itself, especially with Warframe's parkour, can require mild amounts of skill, but at least lots of activity).

Something wrong with passive damage? ... Yes? It means players tapping World on Fire and running through low level tilesets insta-killing targets the player didn't even see. The only counter to that would be to make the damage completely insignificant (and by that point we're edging on Maim territory) - %-based damage is one way to make the damage low on low-level targets and still meaningful on higher ones, but then that leads to a certain cutoff where World on Fire becomes her only power capable of dealing meaningful damage at high levels.

I've explained all this. Starting to get a little circular.

"Skill-requiring and uber-active" is one thing, but completely passive beyond upkeep is the complete opposite end of the spectrum. Peacemaker got reworked for the same reasons, and she couldn't even move during it at the time. An ultimate should be somewhere in the middle.

Edited November 19, 2016 by Archwizard

[Archwizard]

Just for some of the things going on in my head right now, feel free to shoot down any or offer opinions -

Nyx

Everyone wants PsyBolts to be swapped for Telekinesis. I'm not against it, we just need a version that fits in her kit. Current thoughts:

Telekinesis: Two cast system.
First cast costs energy: Nyx selects a hostile target, or perhaps a small group of hostile targets within range of each other, with no immediate effect. (Or perhaps as ChronoEclipse suggested, lifting them, but causing them to follow your cursor like AMD? Could be tricky to use with Pt.2)
Second cast is free: Marked targets are flung toward the target or location she is aiming at during the second cast using Pull 2.0's mechanics, dealing knockdown and damage on impact.

Potential augment: FCastle's suggestion to instantly deactivate an alarm if a terminal is selected? (Could be tricky in raids.)

By making this a directed effect, she can use it to group up enemies for Chaos or Absorb, drag enemies to Mind Controlled units... perhaps even give Mind Controlled units a boost?

Ember

The point isn't to recreate an entire playstyle, but to give her current one more options while limiting the current "cheesy" options.

Fireball (definitely not all three, maybe two):

• Fire patches to stack heat procs?
• tnccs215's damage multiplier on repeat casts?
• Temporary armor melting? Flat or %?

Fire Blast: Leaning towards having the ring itself create a smoke field to reduce enemy visibility/accuracy, the initial blast create a noise on cast to call enemies to investigate without alerting them (ie Undertow), and having the ring vacuum enemies in who get within a range slightly higher than the effect itself. Knockback wave as an augment.

World on Fire: Substitute damage for something to do with volcanic eruptions - perhaps even having each burst ragdoll affected enemies (effects of an eruption directly under them) after removing the knockback wave from Fire Blast. Not sure it's enough.
Perhaps it should avoid the thread of being "damage or CC" entirely?

Edited November 19, 2016 by Archwizard

[--Q--uaint]

Just now, Archwizard said:

Accelerant and World on Fire both are radial damage skills. Having a knockback wave on Fire Blast pushes enemies out of the effective range of Accelerant and World on Fire (the same complaint you keep making about its own fire circle, might I add). Which means after the knockback, the only skill that still has a relevant effective range is Fireball.

Empirically wrong.

The wave from Fire Blast is 15m, and does not scale with range. The knockback is only a few meters, at most.
World on Fire's base range is 15m as well, but it does scale with range. With a Stretch alone, that brings the range to 21m.
Accelerant's base range is 20m, so it doesn't need any range boost at all.

In summary, both powers can easily be brought to work on basically all of Fire Blast's victims without moving.

More than that, though. the wave from Fire Blast gives you breathing room from ranged enemies and the ability to divide and conquer. Once you split the enemies, you pursue one group while being relatively safe from the other enemies.

Just now, Archwizard said:

In my eyes, the knockback wave only exists because players wanted to replicate Eximus powers. It was a Fire Blast before it had the wave because it had the instant burst of radial damage that none of her other abilities has.

Sure, but it's even more of a Fire Blast now than it was then, since it has a large wave of damage. The lingering damage has little to do with a "blast" of fire.

The more I think about it, the more I realize I'm arguing for this because I think Ember really needs a radial finishing attack. She has a good amount of CC, and the ability to buff her damage a lot... but all the heaviest lifting must be done by her weaponry in any decently high content.

What I suggest is this: Apply my suggestions to Fire Blast, and remake World on Fire to be a proper area denial skill.

Just now, Archwizard said:

(Or perhaps as ChronoEclipse suggested, lifting them, but causing them to follow your cursor like AMD?)

Having them follow the cursor would be bad, IMO. You already use the cursor to target their landing spot. If they also follow the cursor, there'd be weird results.

Just now, Archwizard said:

Second cast is free: Marked targets are flung toward the target or location she is aiming at during the second cast using Pull 2.0's mechanics, dealing knockdown and damage on impact.

Actually, it might be amusing to invert this: you can mark enemies for free, and you keep hold of them until they die (or you hold-cast to release? idk) paying energy to fling them around.

Just now, Archwizard said:

Potential augment: FCastle's suggestion to instantly deactivate an alarm if a terminal is selected? (Could be tricky in raids.)

I don't think this is a good idea. An augment giving her the ability to "mind control" Ramparts with it would be pretty cool, though.

Going with my first idea for Telekinesis, the augment could totally be the fear affect or maybe an explosion if they die while incapacitated. This would, of course, mean there's no benefit in the base ability to letting the target die.

Just now, Archwizard said:

perhaps even give Mind Controlled units a boost?

One of the consistent complaints people have had about allied AI is that they aren't suicidal enough. Since MC targets don't take allied damage, using Telekinesis to place your MC target where you want them would be quite viable.

Just now, Archwizard said:

Fireball (definitely not all three, maybe two):

• Fire patches to stack heat procs?
• tnccs215's damage multiplier on repeat casts?
• Temporary armor melting? Flat or %?

I've stated before I like the fire patches idea.

I don't think a combo mechanic is really reasonable if it's gonna be an area denial skill.

Temporary armor melting would seem like a copy/paste of Seeking Shuriken and Sonic Fracture's effects.

[taiiat]

if throwing Enemies means i can smash Enemies together to play bowling and also deal Damage to them, i'm sold.
it's like a discount Magnet Gun!