Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[Archwizard]

12 hours ago, Svygor said:

Why didn't you metion Nyx's ult here? It was great before nerf. And I can't understand why DE changed this ability from good-scaling to not-scaling-at-all.
I suppose it should be changed to have much better damage scaling - 8 energy per 1000 of damage sounds like "sorry, you won't be able to kill enemies or protect yourself above lvl 100. Use Chaos instead". It should be as it was before or should apply strong debuffs to enemies within explosion radius.

Or if you think that Absorb just fine as it is, then I wondering to know how to use it on levels 100-200 and above.

That's one of those things where I can see where DE is coming from.

Scalability is a complex topic. We want abilities to scale so that there isn't a set level where the frame rapidly drops in effectiveness compared to a well-modded Opticor, and a frame who has more tools in their kit to adapt to situations at any level is more enjoyable to use so they don't devolve into a one-trick pony. 

The question is, how far does that go? If all abilities are equally effective at every level, then what's the point of an enemy level difference (other than getting one-shot)? DE wants Sorties to be the end-game, so all abilities should at least be viable up to that point, but what about beyond that?

Should there be a frame who is able to take on a level 200 enemy at equal effectiveness? 500? 1000? 9999? Where's the line?

So I can understand why Absorb got nerfed in the first place - not only did it basically cancel out attacks against her at every level, but the fact that the damage scaled too made Nyx able to fight enemies on her own terms in spite of the level difference; it negated challenge. Which meant that if you had enough energy and enough Efficiency, you could sit still for several minutes to wait out literally any attacker, even at 9999, and then release it to kill them with all the damage you'd sustained. (And with the augment to let her move and shoot during, it was basically a soft god-mode.)
DE chose a method to nerf Absorb so that it was still effective at high levels, just harder to sustain so you could still feel the level difference. Even if it only absorbs one hit and wipes your energy pool at level 200, that's one hit you would've died to otherwise and a massive radial blast.

Now, whether or not they chose the right method to nerf Absorb, or if they need to adjust the tuning somehow, is something that can be up for discussion. But I won't simply say "revert nerfs to Absorb" just because it's inconvenient to fight a level 200+ enemy now. There needs to be a line somewhere.

Edited November 7, 2017 by Archwizard

[MuscleBeach]

9 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

Should there be a frame who is able to take on a level 200 enemy at equal effectiveness? 500? 1000? 9999? Where's the line?

Trinity. The balance comes from them being able to kill you much easier than you can kill them. Being god mode is definitely an issue, you need to have weak points for the sake of balance. But what about Trinity? Doesn't her abilities hit 10% of max health? She kills a lvl 1 just as fast as a lvl 9999 with her abilities. The thing is she can't do it to an entire crowd of enemies. You let your offense scale a bit but your defenses should always have a drawback.

That's how I see balancing scaling damage, which is easier said than done. 

[Archwizard]

Just now, MuscleBeach said:

Trinity. The balance comes from them being able to kill you much easier than you can kill them. Being god mode is definitely an issue, you need to have weak points for the sake of balance. But what about Trinity? Doesn't her abilities hit 10% of max health? She kills a lvl 1 just as fast as a lvl 9999 with her abilities. The thing is she can't do it to an entire crowd of enemies. You let your offense scale a bit but your defenses should always have a drawback.

That's how I see balancing scaling damage, which is easier said than done. 

Trinity isn't necessarily a damage frame, given that her abilities only affect one target at a time. After her first rework she was able to combined Well of Life with Energy Vampire to rapidly kill targets (either due to a bug or a massively overpowered synergy the devs didn't consider).

As part of the rework proposed in the OP, the damage output would be reduced even further, since you wouldn't be able to just cast Energy Vampire 2-4 times with a Max Strength, Min Duration build to kill the target in under 3 seconds.

[MuscleBeach]

On 3/20/2014 at 6:53 PM, Archwizard said:

Atlas
- Landslide may now be used on a Bulwark, causing it to detonate without moving.
- Tectonics' Bulwark is now a physical object that can be climbed/stood upon and parkoured off of by Tenno; players can still run/roll/slide through the side of the wall as now. Bulwark size is affected by Power Range. Damage dealt by the Bulwark is affected by the Bulwark's health.
- Petrify no longer reduces the user's movement speed while active. Atlas is healed for an amount each time an enemy is fully petrified. Bulwarks and Rumblers will receive healing for every second Atlas channels Petrify on them.
- Ore Gaze replaced with “Fossilize”: Allies within the affected area of Petrify receive an increase to base armor, including Bulwarks and Rumblers.
- Rumbler attacks increase Atlas' melee combo count, threat towards the Rumbler, and the damage of their death-explosions. Rumblers lose health every second they remain within Nullifier bubbles, rather than detonating immediately.
- Titanic Rumbler replaced with the Rumbled Conclave augment; outside of Conclave, the augment instead provides Atlas with bonus Armor while active, and attacks scale with equipped melee weapon mods.

I'm curious what you identify as Atlas's issues as only 1 of these bullets looks to address what I see as his issues. I don't mean to sound rude but other than the Rumbled Conclave Augment and Tectonics being affected by Range, the rest of the bullets just make me wonder, "What's the point in making this change?"

To me, his biggest issues are:

1) He has no real defenses, in the form of CC or Shielding (tectonics is very very limited at this as well) outside of invulnerability during Landslide but he also gets chipped away between Landslides Especially painful on the PoE even though it's mid lvl.

2) There's no reason to use his other abilities, due to impractical in function or because Landslide is always the better solution.

What are your key issues with Atlas? 

Also, I think he deserves his own spot in your list but more discussion in here needs to happen first. 

[Svygor]

7 hours ago, Archwizard said:

So I can understand why Absorb got nerfed in the first place - not only did it basically cancel out attacks against her at every level, but the fact that the damage scaled too made Nyx able to fight enemies on her own terms in spite of the level difference; it negated challenge. Which meant that if you had enough energy and enough Efficiency, you could sit still for several minutes to wait out literally any attacker, even at 9999, and then release it to kill them with all the damage you'd sustained. (And with the augment to let her move and shoot during, it was basically a soft god-mode.)

Yeah, abosb was a bit better than it supposed to be. But we have such abilities like Snow Globe, Iron Skin, Halo and some else, that have a few seconds invulnerability period. This period is not enough to just stay and shoot enemies but it's enough to escape or use some other skills. I think that there should be some period when Absorb just absorbs damage but not eats all your enegry (the same few seconds).
Besides I'd like her to be invulnerable during animation of exploding absorb. I found it rediculous that you must hide somewhere not to be killed while exploding - in my mind Absorb is an Ability which you should be able to use in the center of battlefield but not something that you should use far from enemies not to be killed.

I don't think that any of this changes will be OP but they'll make Nyx's life a bit better on hight levels (and will be noticable on sorties too).

Edited November 7, 2017 by Svygor

[Archwizard]

On 11/6/2017 at 5:26 PM, MuscleBeach said:

To me, his biggest issues are:

1) He has no real defenses, in the form of CC or Shielding (tectonics is very very limited at this as well) outside of invulnerability during Landslide but he also gets chipped away between Landslides Especially painful on the PoE even though it's mid lvl.

2) There's no reason to use his other abilities, due to impractical in function or because Landslide is always the better solution.

My issues with him are much the same.

The proposals that are presently in the OP are from an older iteration of suggestions, while he's had some discussion since (that included Atlas splitting damage taken with active Rumblers and giving them charges of Landslide every time he casts it, effectively making them clones of himself). I'm also considering the possibility of allowing Atlas to use his other abilities and attacks while channeling Petrify.

However, while I agree that there is always room for more, I disagree that the changes listed are entirely insufficient for the issues you mentioned - Atlas has high armor, Petrify's suggestions include the ability to heal yourself as you charge enemies, on top of Landslide's innate invulnerability periods allowing him to stall long enough to heal. Tectonics' size is increased in the suggestions, on top of exploding to deal damage that scales with enemy damage output (gaining synergy with Petrify by means of keeping its health up), and Rumblers improve Atlas' own damage by increasing his combo count. Healing his minions would also improve the above suggestion of splitting damage taken with Rumblers.

On 11/6/2017 at 11:55 PM, Svygor said:

Yeah, abosb was a bit better than it supposed to be. But we have such abilities like Snow Globe, Iron Skin, Halo and some else, that have a few seconds invulnerability period. This period is not enough to just stay and shoot enemies but it's enough to escape or use some other skills. I think that there should be some period when Absorb just absorbs damage but not eats all your enegry (the same few seconds).
Besides I'd like her to be invulnerable during animation of exploding absorb. I found it rediculous that you must hide somewhere not to be killed while exploding - in my mind Absorb is an Ability which you should be able to use in the center of battlefield but not something that you should use far from enemies not to be killed.

I don't think that any of this changes will be OP but they'll make Nyx's life a bit better on hight levels (and will be noticable on sorties too).

So what you're suggesting is, there should be a brief period at the beginning of Absorb where the cost cannot be increased, and/or at least a brief period of immunity frames once Absorb ends.

Sounds reasonable.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Archwizard

[MuscleBeach]

I recently made a build that healped solve a lot of his survivability issues. It's nothing new: Vitality + Quick Thinking + Primed Flow + Rage. I did the Ambulas Sortie 3 the other day twice with him.

Here is my build for reference:

Spoiler

Steel Charge, Cunning Drift, Rage Primed Flow, Quick Thinking, Vitality, Stretch, Intensify, Fleeting Expertise, Transient Fortitude. 

Health 740, 300 Shield, 450 Armor 

Energy 563 

Duration 13%

Efficiency 160%

Range 160%

Strength 185%

Venka Prime: Spoiled Strike, Primed Pressure Point, Primed Heavy Trauma, Fever Strike, Shocking Touch, North Wind, Collision Force, Drifting Contact

Here's what happened:

Do note, I was definitely carrying 3 of the other people in the pug. 

Quick Thinking + Primed Flow, + Rage + Vitality load out takes up quite a few mod spaces but provides the best defenses for Atlas that I've done (I've tried the Armor route, doesn't work), among other things I have like Stretch. I'll update this late tonight with a full build and stats so that this can be looked at accurately. Point is, I was in the best defensive options without going 100% defense mods and definitely not a Power strength build (185% power strength, more than I thought I had but that doesn't really hurt my argument as I was killing Ambulas rather slow), though it was in the positive direction. So to kill the Ambulas was kinda slow. I didn't time it but I'd guess around 10-15 seconds of straight Landsliding.

I no longer died between punches but I did spend 70% of the fights at 2 life but 400-550ish energy, which means I would have died a lot without Quick Thinking Setup.

Disruptors that shut off 1 are the Bane of Atlas. Nullifiers aren't nearly as painful to deal with, there's many ways around them. But the skater bois on the other hand, you don't usually see them coming until it's too late and while I didn't die between punches, I'm still very vulnerable and this was the cause of a 2-3 downs (however many it was, it was all of them). This fight does spawn several at one time (or at least it did for me) so this isn't an every mission situation. 

One of the times I went down during the two games, I got 1 shot from near full life (I can't quote the actual amount but it was over 3/4 full health) and was at full energy during the downed state. Which means it was so much damage in that one shot that not even at least 3/4 health + Quick Thinking with max/near max (550ish energy) could save me. This happened with a disruptor nearby shutting off my 1 making me vulnerable. It was  probably the distruptor that shot me but who knows.

Atlas Wall shined more than it ever has in my entire time playing Atlas. It was actually useful.  I did have some dead weight teammates, I was the best CC, which is very sad to say as an Atlas. Though recasting it for the boulder would have hurt and not helped in any situation that occurred. 

Petrify crossed my mind but when you're being attacked from all directions in an open map, the thought left my mind just as quick as it came.

I bolded the parts of my experience that I feel your suggestions addressed in some way.

10 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Petrify's suggestions include the ability to heal yourself as you charge enemies, on top of Landslide's innate invulnerability periods allowing him to stall long enough to heal.

The Petrify suggestion would help, but not for the purpose of CC. The healing is all that matters on it and Landsliding while casting it. The CC would provide minimal assistance because it's a cone in front of him and he's already invulnerable while punching. I spent most of the fights at 2 life. If I HAVE to run 1 specific type of build (quick thinking setup which is 4 mods) to survive around lvls 100, is that ok? That's a serious question. I think people have different opinions on that. To me, ideally, no. But as long as you have at least 1 build, then it's ok. So petrify being able to heal AND channel while moving normally AND while Landsliding, then sure, it'll fix a large weakness of Atlas, but I wouldn't even perceive it as a CC skill, which is fine by me. A flavorful heal. 

10 hours ago, Archwizard said:

I'm also considering the possibility of allowing Atlas to use his other abilities and attacks while channeling Petrify

Using my Ambulas experience, without this, Petrify would have been in the same state it is now, which is not being used.

10 hours ago, Archwizard said:

that included Atlas splitting damage taken with active Rumblers and giving them charges of Landslide every time he casts it, effectively making them clones of himself

10 hours ago, Archwizard said:

and Rumblers improve Atlas' own damage by increasing his combo count.

This would definitely help with survivability. The problem is that this requires very frequent casting of a long cast time ability or it will require you to sacrifice most of your Power and Range or Quick Thinking setup for duration. That may be ok if their Landslide is about as strong as yours. If it is, this would be a welcomed solution. This would also help with having to sacrifice his power to use them. 

10 hours ago, Archwizard said:

However, while I agree that there is always room for more, I disagree that the changes listed are entirely insufficient for the issues you mentioned - Atlas has high armor

I've tried the Armor route (Vitality, Steel Fibre, Armored Agility, and I think Redirection too), it didn't change anything.  

10 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Tectonics' size is increased in the suggestions, on top of exploding to deal damage that scales with enemy damage output

This would help Tectonics a lot. The worst part about it is the recast portion. The splash damage is mostly just a cool synergy, I don't think it would change much. 

 

All in all, there's a lot of if this and if that in the suggestions. This is why I'm always in favor of specifics in suggestions but some could work. I like the idea of using Rumblers in his build, he's suppose to command earthly elements but there's currently no good reason to use them. I'm a fan of changing Tectonics second cast into turning it into a Rumbler instead of a rolling ball. This would bring his Rumbler count to a total of 3. 

Edited November 10, 2017 by MuscleBeach
Added build and stats for reference

[Archwizard]

So, some simple notes to definitely add to the OP then, before I forget again:

Atlas

• Each cast of Landslide while Rumblers are active grants them a single use of an equal Landslide effect.
• Atlas' other abilities may be cast while Petrify is active.
• Damage taken by Atlas is split between active Rumblers.

Nyx

• Absorb grants immunity frames to Nyx during and for a short period following its release animation.
  • Up for debate whether there is a need for the first few seconds to have a reduced cost, so long as this grants her a guaranteed survival period.

And presently up for discussion, to replace all notes for Ember:

Ember

• Fireball's Heat proc will deal damage based on a percentage of the target's current health, affected by Power Strength. If Fireball does not hit a target directly, a fire patch is created at the target area, a la Napalm Blasts?
• Accelerant also increases the damage of Heat-based combination elements (Gas, Radiation, Blast).
  • With this, is there a need to change Flash Accelerant not to combine?
• Fire Blast's ring of flames deals half the damage per tick, but ticks twice as often. Enemies will no longer attempt to avoid the ring of flames (a la Bastille or actual fire hazards).
  Tentative bonus considerations: 
  • Allies within the ring of flames have their wounds cauterized, healing them every second for a portion of the flames' damage.
  • The ring of flames will emit smoke that increases the evasion of allies within the ring. (May be too close to Zephyr?)
• Fire Fright also causes Fire Blast to deal damage over time throughout the entire circle of flames.
• World on Fire replaced with “Wildfire”: Ember channels a large circle of cinders around herself. Every second, status-afflicted enemies within the cinders have a chance (affected by Power Strength) to refresh all status ailments on their person and spread all of their status afflictions to nearby enemies. Damaging status effects spread in this manner will share equal damage to the original status proc, and statuses afflicted by any means within this field will innately stack with (rather than overwriting) other instances of the same status.
• Firequake will now knock down targets each time Burn status spreads from them. (Subject to change.)
  • Alternative consideration: Firequake replaced: Allies within range of Ember have a chance to spread their status ailments to nearby enemies, purging themselves in the process. (May be too close to Nezha?)
• Passive replacement: Instead grants bonus energy generation and Power Strength for each enemy she has ignited, up to a cap. (Subject to change if too powerful?)

Edited November 14, 2017 by Archwizard

[DeltaPangaea]

Well, this is a HEFTY thread, isn't it?

I ain't gonna be able to read all this, but I did go over the OP. Just figured I'd put down some of my thoughts on Vauban, since complaining about him is what brought me here to the Abilities feedback thread today. I'll keep it short (ha) since The thread I made is there if y'all wanna go read it.

Basically Tesla sucks. It's not a damage ability, and it's not a CC ability. You need to use it like 4 times to get any use out of it at all.

Proposed changes being making it shock constantly rather than in pulses, and hitting everyone nearby, like an Arc Trap, By default it has about 5 seconds of shocking time, and will overall deliver its damage in a less GLACIAL pace. Also, sticking someone with the ball itself guarantees an elec proc and they remain stunned until the Tesla runs out of juice. This turns it into a less pathetic damage ability, as well as making it into a single-target CC. Vauban has Minelayer for his area-control needs now, Tesla can be something else.

Secondly, Shred sucks. It's meant to be anti-armor, but is Blast damage, which suffers vs Ferrite, and that's before the damage mitigation anyway. And the damage is pretty meh even without that.

Proposed changes. The armor reduction is applied BEFORE dealing damage. Both damage and armor reduction % scale up the longer the landmine is deployed, reaching maximum after about 10 seconds. Prospective values before charging, 300 damage, 40% armor shred. After fully charging, 1000 damage and 100% armor shred. This prevents full-powered Shreds being thrown directly at people, but still leaves room to plant them down ahead of time to shred armor and blow people up like mines are meant to.

Well, it's shorter than my original post anyway.

Any thoughts?

[o.0-]

I guess I'll share my take on Chroma and Vauban here.

The ideas for Chroma, in the OP, are fine, however I'd like to consider a different manner in using his kit, with a different set of changes:

Spoiler

Dragon Sentry - 'Effigy'   Energy Cost: 50

• Main changes, replaces energy drain with a health decay on the Sentry. When health reaches zero, returns as the pelt on Chroma and regens Sentry health when worn.
• Pelt draws aggro and retains 335 base Armor, Chroma has reduced aggro, 15 base armor and 1.15 sprint speed.
• Guided Effigy Augment should see no changes.
  • Note: Needs 299% Power Strength to reach 1,196 damage, compared to Oberon's Smite, which can reach 1,495 so should be fine with little changes as a 1st ability.

2. Elemental Ward             Energy Cost: 50

• Base Aura Share Range is extended.
• Augment should remain unchanged.

3. Vex Armor                     Energy Cost: 75

• Adds a tap/hold functionality. Tap allows Chroma to have Vex Armor charge normally when receiving fire as it currently works.
• Hold allows Chroma to charge Scorn to boost up armor first, by draining Shields, maybe allow Fury to drain health to charge, once Scorn has reached limit.
• Adds a rate decay when not in active combat dealing and/or receiving damage.

4. Spectral Scream            Energy Cost: 25

• Spectral Scream benefits from some Primary Weapon mods.
• Could have increased energy drain.
• Activating when wearing Pelt, the energy Wings allows Chroma to hover, so can do a few new movements.
  • Using Roll causes Chroma to use Wings to cause and stun enemies at a energy cost.
  • Crouch activates a Taunt which attacts enemies to Chroma and away from others.
  • Holding Sprint allows for a Charge at the cost of energy.
• Activating when Dragon Sentry is active, could make the Sentry's attack ability stronger, grants Chroma the ability to dump lethal damage into the Pelt and increased evasion.
• Augment should remain unchanged.

Passive: Elemental Alignment, unchanged.

 

 

Vauban, I got to wondering what if activating his different Grenades would be more intuitive and spread out, between at least his 1 and 2, using tap and hold? And since he is basically tossing the same things we use in the Gear Wheel, what if we give Vauban a Grenadier themed Passive?

Spoiler

1. Grenades - (Tesla & Shred)
   • These could be matching other 1st damaging abilities so options menu would be available to swap how each is accessible, Tesla would be the default state as it relates to swapping tap/hold.
   • As a result, Tesla could see a slight boost in dealing damage, such as dealing damage more often and/or damaging more than one enemy at a time and/or chain more often.
2. Mines - (Trip Laser & Concuss)
   • As these are Crowd Control that affect enemies when on the ground, these felt like they could stay grouped together.
   • Trip Laser would be the default like Tesla as it relates to swapping tap/hold.
3. Barricades - (Bastille & Repel [Bounce pad])
   • As these can block enemies, but still may allow fire to pass through (and Gara has a different set of a similar ability), figured that these could work together on the tap/hold grouping and again with Bastille being the default state for when tap/hold could be swapped.
   • As the difference is 25 energy, if Bounce, now labeled Repel could gain more base bounce chances at 75 energy.
4. Vortex
   • I assume little would change with Vauban's forth at this time.

Passive -  Grenadier thrown objects (including weapons) have increased distance, velocity, accuracy and precision. So not only are his ability grenades able to fly faster, so could thrown primaries, secondaries and melee.

Think these could be viable alternatives for these two Warframes?

[taiiat]

22 hours ago, Archwizard said:

The ring of flames will emit smoke that increases the evasion of allies within the ring. (May be too close to Zephyr?)

if you're worried about it being redundant, perhaps instead emitting smoke which reduces detection Range or Et Cetera? a sort of 'offensive Stealth' in lieu of obviously Enemies would still be Alerted, but would have to search for you / get closer than usual to be able to see you and shoot at you.

[Archwizard]

5 hours ago, taiiat said:

if you're worried about it being redundant, perhaps instead emitting smoke which reduces detection Range or Et Cetera? a sort of 'offensive Stealth' in lieu of obviously Enemies would still be Alerted, but would have to search for you / get closer than usual to be able to see you and shoot at you.

Well, having an effect that reduces "detection range" when you're using an effect that places a massive blast wave would be rather pointless - but some type of line-of-sight block? Hmm... that could work...

Edited November 15, 2017 by Archwizard

[Archwizard]

Before I go to add my suggestions to the OP (particularly given the announcement about reworked status procs from today's stream and some ideas I've had since, like changes to Limbo's passive), I'd like to briefly take time to discuss some changes to Gara.

First and foremost, the Puncture side of Shattered Lash should be a projectile with Punch Through; having it be just a beam with the same length and cost as the Slash side puts it at a severe disadvantage, barring working around her glass wall. While I still think it's incredibly odd that the ability deals 2 different damage types (making it nigh impossible to effectively build for both), I'm willing to let it slide.

Second, Spectrorage needs to scale. The big thing there is adding scalability to the mirrors, rather than just taking a flat amount and then exploding for a flat amount. I'm sure we can all agree the obvious solution of just giving her damage reflection would be more appropriate, but it comes out to figuring out a proper formula for the mirrors to maintain their current mechanics while still providing that.

Third, Splinter Storm and Mass Vitrify. Are they okay as they are, given that they are literally superior revivals of abilities we've had in the past (targetable Overheat, and the original Snow Globe with fewer penalties and harder CC, respectively) that were removed for too harshly changing the meta? Is she arguably overpowered, or do they better fit the current stage of balance than the one they were introduced in?

Fourth, most of her kit is redundant of itself at best, and outright counterintuitive at worst - Splinter Storm gives her mitigation but Vitrify and Spectrorage remove any need for it; Spectrorage gives her a grouping tool while Splinter Storm pushes enemies apart; Splinter Storm and Vitrify both put similar vulnerability debuffs on enemies (saved by being stackable); and both Vitrify and Spectrorage CC enemies. Does she need them all?

Edited November 17, 2017 by Archwizard

[MuscleBeach]

I don't have Gara nor have I watched the stream yet so I can't comment fully on this but here's my two cents on a couple things I feel I can speak on. 

42 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

Splinter Storm gives her mitigation but Vitrify and Spectrorage remove any need for it;

Splinter Storm also gives a damage debuff on enemies and can also give damage reduction to allies. This gives it a whole different purpose from her other abilities as she can stay mobile and not sit in one area. She can leave the safety of her Vitrify which is not as good on missions like Exterminate or Capture. It's also not good enough to remove the need for Vitrify so when you plan on sitting still, that's still the better choice and Splinter Storm can be used more for offense. I can't speak on Spectrorage.

46 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

both Vitrify and Spectrorage CC enemies. Does she need them all?

I'm of the mindset that Snow Globe and any ability like it (like Vitrify) should be removed from the game entirely. They trivialize a large portion of the game. But that's a different topic of discussion. I honestly think she's well balanced (haven't played her, just observation).

She has Splinter Storm for defense and offense with buffing capabilities.

Vitrify is a Snow Globe tier defense skill and I think can also serve as an O S*** button?

Spectrorage is... a cool idea but is outclassed by Vitrify in most situations. I suppose it's better than Vitrify on more mobile missions. 

Her 1 ability, I have no idea about its effectiveness so I won't speak on it but it does serve a different purpose than the rest of her kit. 

I'd say she's well rounded at offense and defense, which is what she seems to be geared for. She has abilities that are all useful, depending on the mission type. I'd say only Vitrify and Spectrorage are too redundant on stationary missions but that's because Vitrify is another Snow Globe which trivializes defenses. 

[Archwizard]

Well, pending further discussion on Gara, I've added the notes on Ember, Atlas, Nyx, and a couple extras from external discussions on Limbo to the OP.

[Sasuda]

Why nerf Arcane helmets? They aren't relevant really. Might as well leave the players lucky enough to get them. I don't have the arcane vanguard helm btw. I just think nerfing it is unnecessary. It's not even that good. Loki has a efficiency helmet, which is the best arcane helmet of all of them I'd say (also the ugliest).  

[taiiat]

6 hours ago, Sasuda said:

Might as well leave the players lucky enough to get them.

Loki has a efficiency helmet, which is the best arcane helmet of all of them I'd say (also the ugliest).  

that is the sort of reasoning one would use when they personally benefit from something.
but more importantly Sprint Speed is lower than many Warframes for a reason, and Mod Slots are supposed to be where you make your stat choices, not elsewhere. short of that, moving said Stats to a specialization Skill Tree would be the most game interesting way for them to exist - where one picks a specialization out of a pool of choices that best fits their style. they'd all be like Corrupted Mods (but less of a free upgrade), getting some more out of your style but paying something else for it.

the Range Helmet is objectively better. because Efficiency on Loki is easy, Strength is only used for a self Leveling Loadout. 

[Sasuda]

13 hours ago, taiiat said:

that is the sort of reasoning one would use when they personally benefit from something.
but more importantly Sprint Speed is lower than many Warframes for a reason, and Mod Slots are supposed to be where you make your stat choices, not elsewhere. short of that, moving said Stats to a specialization Skill Tree would be the most game interesting way for them to exist - where one picks a specialization out of a pool of choices that best fits their style. they'd all be like Corrupted Mods (but less of a free upgrade), getting some more out of your style but paying something else for it.

the Range Helmet is objectively better. because Efficiency on Loki is easy, Strength is only used for a self Leveling Loadout. 

I explicitly stated I don't have it, so I really don't benefit from it. It's the only arcane helmet that has a suggested nerf.
Applying arcanes on anything don't cost you any mod spaces either. Niether does focus nodes. Exilus slots were added so players might actually upgrade these stats, because players decided these stats were not valuable enough to make them a regular part of their builds. Arcanes never have used mod slots. Newer arcanes are also much much more powerful. The old acranes were left the way they were so as to not punish players who had gotten them. I mean these players have paid time in grinding and getting the arcane helmets in the first place. Increasing Sprint Speed isn't very difficult, but most players aren't going to sacrifice one of their mod slots for it anyway. Because the sprint speed stat isn't that valuable. That's why I'm saying there's no need to nerf it. It's just an arbitrary nerf.

It isn't objectively better that depends on what you are playing and what you have. If all you need is invisibility then you're going to prefer duration or efficiency over range. Having the boost on the helmet means you may choose to put on a mod you would be less likely to choose over it. You may not need efficiency to be increased at all or you might find it handy depending what you are using it for. Just because you don't use Blind Rage doesn't mean you don't want increased efficiency.
Regardless both of those helmets on Loki are better than the Vanguard helmet, because both of those stats are favoured over sprint speed.

 

[tnccs215]

@Archwizard was reading your OP to check the new changes. Just wanna note that there seems to be some formatting inconsistencies on your Well Of Life bullet point. You might want to check that out.

[Archwizard]

10 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

@Archwizard was reading your OP to check the new changes. Just wanna note that there seems to be some formatting inconsistencies on your Well Of Life bullet point. You might want to check that out.

I'm looking at it right now, and I don't see a problem in Chrome or on mobile...

[tnccs215]

On 17/11/2017 at 10:38 PM, Archwizard said:

First and foremost, the Puncture side of Shattered Lash should be a projectile with Punch Through; having it be just a beam with the same length and cost as the Slash side puts it at a severe disadvantage, barring working around her glass wall. While I still think it's incredibly odd that the ability deals 2 different damage types (making it nigh impossible to effectively build for both), I'm willing to let it slide.

Indeed. The benefit of a faster casting time does not overshadow infinite punch through, a better damage type, and more area covered. Adding punch through seems to be a good change. Though, I'd also like to note that, as much as the power in question has some CC utility, it's utter lack of scaling paired with the fact that her Ultimate also features rather hard CC means that the ability gets useless fast as the levels go up. Seen some propositions to make it scale with melee mods. Frankly, seems like a good enough solution for me. 

Alternatively - and a change that would further differentiate the tap and hold functions - giving it current health % + base damage could be a good idea, with the tap function  dealing a much bigger percentage than the hold one. 

Though, these are just unoriginal ideas, I'm sure the people here will find better. 

On 17/11/2017 at 10:38 PM, Archwizard said:

Second, Spectrorage needs to scale. The big thing there is adding scalability to the mirrors, rather than just taking a flat amount and then exploding for a flat amount. I'm sure we can all agree the obvious solution of just giving her damage reflection would be more appropriate, but it comes out to figuring out a proper formula for the mirrors to maintain their current mechanics while still providing that.

Oh yeah, the ability is sh!te as it is, completely useless to the point I have no idea how it passed playtesting. I'm seem some interesting ideas on how to fix it from some people on this subforum, unfortunately I'm too lazy to get them. They did all based themselves on the opinion that it needs scalability - though I frankly think that can be considered fact. 

On 17/11/2017 at 10:38 PM, Archwizard said:

Third, Splinter Storm and Mass Vitrify. Are they okay as they are, given that they are literally superior revivals of abilities we've had in the past (targetable Overheat, and the original Snow Globe with fewer penalties and harder CC, respectively) that were removed for too harshly changing the meta? Is she arguably overpowered, or do they better fit the current stage of balance than the one they were introduced in?

Well... Frankly, I honestly see both powers as possible evidence that DE is getting lazy with their Frame design. Or, better saying, they are doing stuff that used to happen by mistake, and that they momentarily stopped doing for a while. 

That is, they seem to be seeing frames as exclusively the sum of their parts. Spectrorage might be awful and useless, yes, but she has Mass Vitrify and Splinter Storm "to compensate". I frankly despise that way of thinking, and am pretty sure it has also creeped out on Hydroid's rework. I am not enjoying this trend. 

Specially worrying the fact that their first change after release was to buff Mass Vitrify, instead of Spectrorage. If before the limited covered area by Mass Vitrify could be seen as a balancing factor - with perhaps the only reasonable change being having its height affected by Range mods, now the ability is only prevented from being woefully overpowered do the enemies bugging into its inside area. Not a great design, in my opinion. 

Splinter Storm seems like DE moved up the "soft level cap" yet again - that is, gave us another massively powerful ability to resist enemies, and did so to the whole team. It's balancing factors are little more than the lack of clarity regarding ability timers (if you cast it on another thing after casting it on yourself, it's timer override yours on the ability icon, which means you are left guessing how much time you have left), but even that is easily compensated by well-timed Mass Vitrify casts. 

Speaking of which, I really enjoy the interaction between mass Vitrify and Spectrorage, but while it does reward team coordination, it may reward it a bit too much. 

On 17/11/2017 at 10:38 PM, Archwizard said:

Fourth, most of her kit is redundant of itself at best, and outright counterintuitive at worst - Splinter Storm gives her mitigation but Vitrify and Spectrorage remove any need for it; Spectrorage gives her a grouping tool while Splinter Storm pushes enemies apart; Splinter Storm and Vitrify both put similar vulnerability debuffs on enemies (saved by being stackable); and both Vitrify and Spectrorage CC enemies. Does she need them all?

Well, yes, and no. That is, they are somewhat redundant, but much of that theoretical redundancy is compensated by the fact most of the abilities let you do the same thing, but with different intent. 

For example, Mass Vitrify and Splinter Storm seem redundant at first, yet one can argue that while Mass Vitrify protects from all damage on a specific locale, Splinter Storm sacrifices some of that damage protection in exchange of movement capabilities. Same function, different situation.

That said, it's the only one. Spectrorage (in an ideal form) and Mass Vitrify seem two different ways of making the same thing. While one prevents enemies from accessing a location by blocking them off, the other prevents enemies from accessing a location by blocking them in. What annoys me the most is that they could keep the vast majority of the ability traits and still make two widely different abilities with different roles that could potentially sinergize quite well. Namely: making a limited number of enemies be attracted into Spectrorage. It woukd give her enemy relocation capabilities, something quite rare in Warframe, and would sinergize with Mass Vitrify, allowing you to create "prisons" for enemies. 

Can't argue with the repelling properties of Splinter Storm because... Frankly, it is trully pointless and contradictory on affected enemies. And arguably allies too, cause melee. 

43 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

I'm looking at it right now, and I don't see a problem in Chrome or on mobile...

Weird. I'll take a print screen and upload it right away. 

[tnccs215]

Here. Maybe formating isn't the right word (in with the "English isn't my native language™" excuse), but you seem to have forgotten to properly erase rewritten sentences. Here:

Maybe it's my phone? 

[Archwizard]

2 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Though, I'd also like to note that, as much as the power in question has some CC utility, it's utter lack of scaling paired with the fact that her Ultimate also features rather hard CC means that the ability gets useless fast as the levels go up. Seen some propositions to make it scale with melee mods. Frankly, seems like a good enough solution for me. 

It already does scale with melee mods.

4 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

I'm seem some interesting ideas on how to fix it from some people on this subforum, unfortunately I'm too lazy to get them. They did all based themselves on the opinion that it needs scalability - though I frankly think that can be considered fact. 

I would love to see them if you find the time to dig them out.

8 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Namely: making a limited number of enemies be attracted into Spectrorage. It woukd give her enemy relocation capabilities, something quite rare in Warframe, and would sinergize with Mass Vitrify, allowing you to create "prisons" for enemies. 

Can't argue with the repelling properties of Splinter Storm because... Frankly, it is trully pointless and contradictory on affected enemies. And arguably allies too, cause melee. 

So, perhaps each mirror from Spectrorage links to a specific enemy (thereby allowing Power Strength to increase the number of targets instead of just the number of mirrors needed to detonate), drawing them into the circle and reflecting damage dealt to the mirror by that target?

And of course, removing the push effect from Splinter Storm...
I'm actually half-tempted to say Splinter Storm should have a limited number of targets if it's going to be able to give 90% mitigation to the entire team, but given that it also has a debuff component, it could be cumbersome to limit it. Hmm.

5 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Maybe formating isn't the right word (in with the "English isn't my native language™" excuse), but you seem to have forgotten to properly erase rewritten sentences.

Ah, the first underlined case is an error, thank you. The second case, however, is a typo ("be" should be "by") and not actually redundant. They're grammatical errors rather than text-formatting errors.

[tnccs215]

13 hours ago, Archwizard said:

It already does scale with melee mods.

It does? Oh lol I missed the memo. Nice. 

13 hours ago, Archwizard said:

I would love to see them if you find the time to dig them out.

Went through 20 pages searching for them. Most of the propositions are pretty rudimentary, but they do give a good start. I also advise you to read some of the comments that give more options, because there are interesting ones here and there. 

The one I'm most interested is the first one listed. 

13 hours ago, Archwizard said:

So, perhaps each mirror from Spectrorage links to a specific enemy (thereby allowing Power Strength to increase the number of targets instead of just the number of mirrors needed to detonate), drawing them into the circle and reflecting damage dealt to the mirror by that target?

Oh, I really like that idea. Not only does it make the number of mirrors feel less like a gimmick, it also gives some extra reason to go over the minimum Ability Strength needed to max Splinter Storm's damage reduction, and with the way Overextended works, people can choose between more attraction range or a bigger number of affected enemies. Trade offs lead to build diversity, after all. I'd put a pin on that idea. 

13 hours ago, Archwizard said:

I'm actually half-tempted to say Splinter Storm should have a limited number of targets if it's going to be able to give 90% mitigation to the entire team, but given that it also has a debuff component, it could be cumbersome to limit it. Hmm.

If you want my input, and going from my particular experience, I think the solution for that issue is making it not give 90% damage reduction.

It might demand some amount of micromanaging, but to reduce incoming damage ten times for any Allie or even objects is simply too much for too little. Pair her with a Trin and you have a borderline invincible party at the cost of vague amounts of coordination. Added to that, I've noticed that, despite the fact it's not a useless debuff, enemy-directed Splinter Storm usage isn't very encouraged. In the end, when I'm busy micromanaging timers, the damage buff isn't a good enough incentive for me to use Splinter Storm on enemies. 

With that in mind, I think that the maximum possible damage reduction should be reduced to maybe 80% - however, enemies affected by Spectrorage Splinter Storm will also have their damage output reduced by a maximum of 80%. This means that your team will overall take "only" five times less damage, however, being aware and picking targets for Spectrorage Splinter Storm in an intelligent way means that you can make the trully hard hitting enemies much less dangerous than before - they'd deal 4% damage, to be exact. 

We should also get the timer of the duration  of our own Splinter Storm on the effects row next to out health and shields. For as interesting as lack of transparency might sound as a balancing mechanism, to feel like you are missing crucial information you'd otherwise have access to feels... Cheap. 

13 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Ah, the first underlined case is an error, thank you. The second case, however, is a typo ("be" should be "by") and not actually redundant. They're grammatical errors rather than text-formatting errors.

Pleasure helping, and thanks for the corrections. 

Edited November 22, 2017 by tnccs215
Confused Ability names

[taiiat]

a 'simple' solution i think, would be for Damage that any of the Mirrors takes, is spread across all of the Mirrors - with the Mirror directly hit takes 40% of that Damage, and the remaining 60% is spread across the remaining Mirrors.
then, perhaps add a 'Sentient like' feature of the more Mirrors there are, the stronger they are (like literally, ripoff the Sentient group linking). so they take less Damage as a whole and individually the more of them there are. 5% less Damage taken individually for each Mirror >1 there is (obviously the min is higher than that)
granted Sentients have both of these from their group linking, so what i'm really saying is copy the thing entirely and give it to these Mirrors.

optionally, Damage could be reflected back onto Enemies, and bounced around between the Mirrors or something - so that a single hit on a Mirror bounces through the Enemies many times (for obvious reasons the bouncing wouldn't damage the Mirrors, only the initial hit).
or if not reflected and bounced, if one Mirror takes Damage, it is expelled back out a different random Mirror as a pulse which travels the length of the carousel.
which would be instead of making them more durable with mechanics, making them CC Enemies better by using the mirror theme of the Ability.

these work best if the way Mirror count and min count are handled is adjusted - decrease the minimum to 25% of original rather than 50%, and... i'm tempted to say allow both Strength and Range to increase Mirror count, in different ways. what i want is to be able to increase the Mirror count both by increasing the area they cover and therefore needing to fill in gaps, but also by making individual Mirrors smaller and to fill in the gaps that way as well.

 

i'd agree that Splinter Storm is.... mostly mechanically barren and just a Timer to maintain, not much else. Overheat was 91.6% so technically it isn't an upgraded clone of it but i digress :P
it just needs to do more/be more connected to the other Abilities than just 'absorbs Damage from Mirrors and Vitrify'.

2 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Though, I'd also like to note that, as much as the power in question has some CC utility, it's utter lack of scaling paired with the fact that her Ultimate also features rather hard CC means that the ability gets useless fast as the levels go up. Seen some propositions to make it scale with melee mods. Frankly, seems like a good enough solution for me. 

?????
Shattered Lash already uses all Damage related Melee Damage Mods. it does a ton of Damage.

this is also why boosting your own Spinter Storm is so great - because the ridiculous Damage Shattered Lash deals is added to Splinter Storm when you break Vitrify, on top of Vitrify.
it may not have Blood Rush and Condition Overload but it's still a Melee Weapon that has 800 Damage and gets to double dip in both Strength and Melee Mods.

(however yes the punch swing shouldn't be hurt in capability of hitting Enemies compared to a sweeping arc that is better able to hit Enemies generally)

 (finishing up post i've been writing for a couple hours on and off notes: oh someone already addressed this D:)

1 hour ago, Archwizard said:

And of course, removing the push effect from Splinter Storm...
I'm actually half-tempted to say Splinter Storm should have a limited number of targets if it's going to be able to give 90% mitigation to the entire team, but given that it also has a debuff component, it could be cumbersome to limit it. Hmm.

it is convenient to be basically immune to Melee Enemies, FWIW. it's a double edged sword ofc though.

you could limit the number of Targets Splinter Storm can push, though.

1 hour ago, Archwizard said:

So, perhaps each mirror from Spectrorage links to a specific enemy (thereby allowing Power Strength to increase the number of targets instead of just the number of mirrors needed to detonate), drawing them into the circle and reflecting damage dealt to the mirror by that target?

i like it, not more or less than what i suggested just now, but that it also sounds interesting. as Tnccs notes, it gives Overextended and Strength Mods the perfect tradeoff to two different benefits/capabilities so that neither direction is bad perse, just for a different use.
now if we can just get all Abilities on all Warframes to be like that...

 

58 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

With that in mind, I think that the maximum possible damage reduction should be reduced to maybe 80% - however, enemies affected by Spectrorage will also have their damage output reduced by a maximum of 80%. This means that your team will overall take "only" five times less damage, however, being aware and picking targets for Spectrorage in an intelligent way means that you can make the trully hard hitting enemies much less dangerous than before - they'd deal 4% damage, to be exact. 

hell, even make it like 60/60.

- - - - - 

1 hour ago, Sasuda said:

other things exist without Mod Slots

It isn't objectively better that depends on what you are playing and what you have. If all you need is invisibility then you're going to prefer duration or efficiency over range. Having the boost on the helmet means you may choose to put on a mod you would be less likely to choose over it. You may not need efficiency to be increased at all or you might find it handy depending what you are using it for. Just because you don't use Blind Rage doesn't mean you don't want increased efficiency.
Regardless both of those helmets on Loki are better than the Vanguard helmet, because both of those stats are favoured over sprint speed.

and most of those things are tuned in context of that. where they don't become as effective as a Mod Slot. there are some outliers but those are in the same boat.

your Efficiency is capped out either way. more Efficiency doesn't do you anything useful. it's already capped. there are no Mods that more Efficiency than does anything would encourage you to use any Mods you wouldn't otherwise.
Range is just better. a Loki without Range to use the 3 other Abilities is dead weight.