Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[Archwizard]

On 12/22/2017 at 9:03 AM, taiiat said:

and what is this difference? 

When you use Loki or Nidus or Ivara or Limbo's abilities together, it's in response to a particular (albeit not necessarily unique) situation, a window of opportunity. Each skill used already has a consistent and meaningful effect on its own, and it's in applying them together that they define not only their individual purposes but the frame's skill ceiling and intended role.
I cast Decoy or Noise Arrow or Larva because I needed a grouping tool, I cast Invisibility or Parasitic Link or Stasis or Prowl 'cuz I needed a quick defense boost, but I use Decoy/Disarm or Cataclysm/Surge together because I have a strategy. They combine to overcome each others' weaknesses, and compound to raise their potential infinitely.

When you design the kit such that abilities must be combined to be at all effective, you're not only raising the effective costs of the abilities themselves (a bit like on-disc DLC), but the combination still only hits a pre-defined ceiling on their maximum potential. Miasma is just one such example, as are many facets of Oberon's kit. You're being forced to apply the same amount of work in every situation that Loki does to exploit a specific opportunity window.

[taiiat]

7 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

When you design the kit such that abilities must be combined to be at all effective, you're not only raising the effective costs of the abilities themselves (a bit like on-disc DLC), but the combination still only hits a pre-defined ceiling on their maximum potential. Miasma is just one such example, as are many facets of Oberon's kit. You're being forced to apply the same amount of work in every situation that Loki does to exploit a specific opportunity window.

we're on the same page then - though i would insist that Hallowed Ground and Renewal are useful on their own and having all of the things you can get from using both isn't necessary for each Ability to be effective.

[Archwizard]

1 minute ago, taiiat said:

we're on the same page then - though i would insist that Hallowed Ground and Renewal are useful on their own and having all of the things you can get from using both isn't necessary for each Ability to be effective.

Agree on Renewal, disagree on Hallowed Ground. While it does provide the unique boost of status removal, it's rarely impressive on its own, and the fact is that Hallowed Ground's biggest impact on Oberon's kit is acting as a key for additional effects from his latter abilities.

[taiiat]

Status immunity, widespread Radiation Status for a long period (not just one burst, remains so that new Enemies can receive it for a long time), and the Augment turns it into the primary source of Damage for Oberon (though not quite as much nowadays since Smite scales now, to be fair though Hallowed Eruption will hit everything in the room at once).

is it.... Peacemaker? no. it's still useful though.

[Fihuren]

Blazing chakram should heal warding halo i think.

[Archwizard]

Sorry for the lack of activity the past couple weeks! Been rather busy.

However, apparently Scott just posted on Twitter that not only is a rework coming to Zephyr, but Atlas as well.

I'm both intrigued and concerned about this. To continue the ongoing discussion, of late, the reworks to Warframes like Saryn and Oberon have attempted to hamfist the concept of "synergy" within a frame's kit by subtracting from the abilities' base effectiveness (like the reduced damage of Miasma or removal of armor from base Hallowed Ground) in favor of bonuses when used in conjunction with other abilities.
In a sense, it has turned frames designed for high base effectiveness and low, utilitarian use of powers into heavy casters who constantly exhaust all energy. While it's excusable in Oberon's personal case (as a result of hybrid tax), it's concerning when an ostensibly melee-oriented Warframe like Saryn has a higher energy throughput than a more dedicated caster like Ember or Equinox, or frames with high base energy pools like Loki. In fact, when you consider Warframes with Exalted weapons, Warframe itself has a rather stilted definition of "caster" versus "weapon-master".

But I digress.

My point is, while Zephyr and Atlas' kits are past due for improvements (and the simultaneous rework of two frames with opposing elemental themes - including one who was not stated to be on the docket - may speak to a stroke of particular inspiration), I am concerned that the rework may lean away from giving players the leniency of fluid/situational skill use seen and praised in earlier kits, in favor of enforcing the ongoing trend of overwhelmingly direct addresses between abilities.

[MuscleBeach]

43 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

However, apparently Scott just posted on Twitter that not only is a rework coming to Zephyr, but Atlas as well.

You just made my Thursday!!! As long as they don't change Atlas's 1 or Zephyr's 3, I don't think there's much damage they can do to those Warframes as any change to their other 3 abilities can at worst keep them just as bad as they are. I do think it's important to shift gears and be more vocal about rework ideas for them now, while they're on the radar and maybe checking the forums for ideas. 

48 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

I'm both intrigued and concerned about this. To continue the ongoing discussion, of late, the reworks to Warframes like Saryn and Oberon have attempted to hamfist the concept of "synergy" within a frame's kit by subtracting from the abilities' base effectiveness (like the reduced damage of Miasma or removal of armor from base Hallowed Ground) in favor of bonuses when used in conjunction with other abilities.

And Mag. I think you have a very valid and relevant concern. I don't think it's a problem that they make some warframes like this, where they combo with themselves. But just like how Peacemaker and Undertow-like skills would be bad if they were on every warframe, it's great that SOME warframes exist with them. Variety is good, even if it's dipping into rather odd territories, like being stationary in a highly mobile game. It just has to not be done too much and when done, be tasteful. The same thing applies to these self-combing warframes. I can see it happening to Zephyr but Atlas would require some overhaul to make his abilities do that in a sensible way. 

I think warframes need to synergize more with status effects rather than their other abilities: Ability does something extra to Poisoned enemies but the other abilities don't focus on completely spreading poison. I made a couple Warframe Concepts in the Fan Concepts part of the forums that illustrate this. 

[taiiat]

inb4 Tailwind gets more clunky to use, Tectonics no longer exists or loses the best feature it has which is being able to use it do screw with AI.

i approve of making Abilities more flexible so they're useful more often (by doing a variety of things), but i always worry about nuking interesting and useful things an Ability already has.

1 hour ago, MuscleBeach said:

Ability does something extra to Poisoned enemies but the other abilities don't focus on completely spreading poison. I made a couple Warframe Concepts in the Fan Concepts part of the forums that illustrate this. 

what, Saryn? 3/4 of the Abilities help you spread and apply Toxin Status. >.>

[MuscleBeach]

16 hours ago, taiiat said:

what, Saryn? 3/4 of the Abilities help you spread and apply Toxin Status. >.>

Yes, like Saryn. Toxin was just an example. The same can be said for radiation, cold, fire, magnetic, etc. The problem with the warframes that already do the spreading is that other abilities rely on it too heavily: Saryn's 4, Mag's 1,2 and 4 I guess counts even though it's not status based, Oberon's 4 and I think his heal does something too. Ember is more in line with what I had in mind, with another warframe that doesn't spread Heat procs so much but rather makes greater use of the little they do have. To make an example: Ember is good at spreading Heat procs. Another Warframe would do something special, like melt heated armor or extra damage but not be that great at spreading the heat status on their own. 

[Snake_Oil]

On 3/20/2014 at 9:53 PM, Archwizard said:

Peaceful Provocation replaced with “Hide & Heckle”: Provoke increases Equinox’ threat against enemies, while Pacify reduces enemy awareness of Equinox

That sounds ineffectual and terrible! The Rest changes seem fine if unnecessary other than that I like it.

[taiiat]

6 hours ago, MuscleBeach said:

To make an example: Ember is good at spreading Heat procs. Another Warframe would do something special, like melt heated armor or extra damage but not be that great at spreading the heat status on their own. 

still don't see where Saryn fit into the example, but anyways sure, Warframes could share themes by focusing on the Status Effect itself or using the Status Effect very liberally.

[MuscleBeach]

21 hours ago, taiiat said:

still don't see where Saryn fit into the example, but anyways sure, Warframes could share themes by focusing on the Status Effect itself or using the Status Effect very liberally.

I'm not sure what you're missing but it sounds like you got my point still :) Saryn is good at spreading a status effect (two status effects, too much in my book). That's all there really is to my suggestion. Saryn isn't a perfect example because she can spread both Viral and Toxin and nuke a map all on her own. I'm saying kits should be more narrow in design and not be able to do it all on their own, without a lot of effort. That's where team composition should come in, and it does to an extent right now but it can be furthered. So Saryn would be a viral spreader and someone else deals tons of damage to people affected by Viral in a much smaller range and doesn't spread viral on their own all that easily. Damage focus vs spreading focused warframes. 

[(PSN)TheHypothes]

Didn't scan through the whole thing but I noticed a full on absence of Wukong lol :( I'll post something simple

Definitely, if nothing else, a retuned moveset in Primal Fury to make it more fluid and easier to pull off all the combos would be wonderful. The only combo I think should stay is his multi ground slam block string.

[Archwizard]

Some Atlas updates from tonight's Prime Time:

Quote

New mechanic - Rubble: Whenever Rumblers/Bulwarks expire or Petrified enemies die, they will drop Rubble for Atlas that either restores health, or grants bonus armor if health is not needed.

Landslide: Deals bonus damage to Petrified enemies, and can be cast during Petrify.

Petrify: Can be used on Bulwarks (to increase max health and rolling momentum) and Rumblers (to heal them).

Rumblers: Enemies within range of you will be instantly petrified on cast.

Hmm.

On 3/20/2014 at 6:53 PM, Archwizard said:

- Petrify no longer reduces the user's movement speed while active or prevents the use of his other abilities. Atlas is healed for an amount each time an enemy is fully petrified. Bulwarks and Rumblers will receive healing for every second Atlas channels Petrify on them.

[Buzkyl]

The new Atlas changes at the very least solve the following.

• Gives atlas a source of tankyness and a self healing to compliment his armor (Rubble)
• Petrify having more synergy with his kit by healing the Bulwark and Rumblers
• More CC on summoning rumblers by petrifying mobs on cast.

 

Other changes that I believe should be added

• His 2 overall size being affected by power strength
• Petrify still being (seemingly) cumbersome to use by slowing him down. At least we can use landslide in it, hopefully the petrify rate is made standard for all enemies.

Potential concerns

• Landslide doing MORE damage has me concerned that it's damage will be reduced to compensate.

 

[taiiat]

Landslide doesn't really need more Damage so i agree that it sounds like Landslide will deal less in trade for a Synergy bonus.

but more importantly the new stuff for Petrify will be nice but having reduced Movement or restricted attacks in the first place in Warframe is borderline cancer. the solution is to just not do that with Abilities, because the game is fast paced and those are Abilities designed for a different game.

the rest though, is neato and will be nice. hopefully the Healing is enough that you don't absolutely have to have an exterior form of Healing, but not so much that you just don't lose Health.

[MuscleBeach]

4 hours ago, Buzkyl said:

Landslide doing MORE damage has me concerned that it's damage will be reduced to compensate.

Nothing to worry about. Its damage fall off doesn't happen until over lvl 100 and it falls off due to armor, not damage output. It could get nerfed and all that would change is that a lvl 70 will die on punch #2 instead of #1. It actually would be a buff in a way as the AOE on the third hit is very powerful and has good range. Weaker punches means more third punches and bigger clearing area. I'va also tried a negative strength build and did fine landsliding my way through sorties. Landslide is very powerful as long as you warframe OR weapon is built for it. So a nerf won't really do much to Landslide unless it's substantial. 

Also, channeling Petrify comes with all the negatives of a channeling skill. You don't really want to keep Petrify on all the time, even with its super cheap cost.

I'm interested in the Petrify AOE on Rumblers. If it starts right away and has decent range, it could be the Petrify I've always wanted. 

EDIT: just watched the prime time and it is right away. Just need to know the range :D 

Edited February 2, 2018 by MuscleBeach

[Himenoinu]

On 3/21/2014 at 3:53 AM, Archwizard said:

- Mend & Maim will each produce a stationary sphere when deactivated, splitting continuous instant healing or damage between occupants, up to the leftover maximum health absorbed or a period affected by Duration; limit 1 sphere at a time. Completing Metamorphosis will transfer the accumulated health pool to the opposite form, and instantly change the active sphere to the opposite form's iteration for the remaining duration/health pool. Maim no longer inflicts bleed, but health pool accumulation in both forms is also affected by damage taken by allies within range of the toggled effect.

The changes you propose make sense with the exception of that. Basically, it would be "Mend & Nothing", since there's no maiming effect whatosever

 

On 3/21/2014 at 3:53 AM, Archwizard said:

Side note: Anybody else think Hydroid and Equinox's drop locations should be switched? Earth may be the blue planet, but in Warframe, Uranus is the wet one.

Yes. Yes. YES!

 

 

[Buzkyl]

Overview of Zephyr Changes

• Tornadoe now uses Hydroid puddle mechanic and damages everything caught.
• Tailwind and divebomb merged into a single single (thank heavens!) she also hovers which is a great plus with her passive and seperates her from titania.
• New skill airbust seems to be Range CC skill, also Synergy with Tornadoes.

 

Overall it appears to be a solid rework that addresses most of her complaints, tornadoes stil are horrible CC but allow you to kill enemies isnide it easier, her mobility is buffed by hovering and her skills cost less while in air. All while leaving her best skill (Turbulence) unchnaged

2 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

ZEPHYR

Some of Zephyr's abilities are cheaper to cast while airborne - details in progress.

Tail Wind - Combined into a single ability with Dive Bomb. Can be charge cast on the ground, launching Zephyr into the air where she then hovers. In the air, Tail Wind still flies in whatever direction you’re looking, and Dive Bomb activates if cast while looking straight down.

Air Burst - New ability replacing Dive Bomb. A projectile that causes an AoE burst on contact, ragdolling enemies. Can be fired into Tornadoes to make them bigger.

Tornado - Now spawn where player is aiming and can be steered. The closest tornado will move to your aimpoint, meaning you can move them around. Tornado damage type now determined by largest amount of elemental damage absorbed, instead of last type absorbed. Tornadoes do a better job of keeping enemies captured, and shooting Tornadoes will do damage to enemies trapped inside.
 

Zephyr, the warrior of the skies, has seen little change since being introduced in early 2014. Four years later, her ability kit is showing its age - Parkour 2.0 improved mobility across all Warframes, making her reduced gravity and Tail Wind less useful by comparison. Turbulence is consistently useful, but all other abilities leave something to be desired.

To give Zephyr new wind beneath her wings, her Tail Wind and Dive Bomb will now be the same ability, cast depending on which direction the player is looking. This makes room for her new ability Air Burst, which gives Zephyr new ways to rain death from the skies. We do not have a gif ready for this yet. Combined with Tornado tweaks intended to make the ability more consistent and useful, Zephyr’s more well-rounded kit should help reassert her air superiority.

 

[Azamagon]

23 minutes ago, Buzkyl said:

• Tailwind and divebomb merged into a single single (thank heavens!)

T_T

Yuck! No, no, NO!

Hate this change so much! Have to control my anger/disappointment right now, so I won't say much more than that... T_T

[Archwizard]

9 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Hate this change so much! Have to control my anger/disappointment right now, so I won't say much more than that... T_T

It's a feedback forum. It's actually more constructive to explain your grievances, in order to get to a point where it can be discovered how to make changes more palatable.

Personally, I like the change. Dive Bomb and Tail Wind were both different types of mobility tools, but ultimately both still covered the "mobility tool" niche (and frankly, Dive Bomb was outclassed by melee ground slams except as a delivery vehicle for knockdown). Merging them freed up space in her kit, and to be honest, I don't really understand why someone would want to perform a normal Tail Wind straight down.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Archwizard

[Buzkyl]

4 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

T_T

Yuck! No, no, NO!

Hate this change so much! Have to control my anger/disappointment right now, so I won't say much more than that... T_T

In almost no way is this a negative change

 

• Launching into the air is on charge cast (Speculation: Normal cast is a normal dash?)
• While in air she even hovers fr better manuverability
• You're still able to comedown through divebomb and dash forward through tailwind.
• Potentially, the skill costs less to perform while in air.

 

Divebomb had 1  use, and that was to ground zephyr. It being merged freed up her kit for newer skills.

[Azamagon]

11 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

It's a feedback forum. It's actually more constructive to explain your grievances, in order to get to a point where it can be discovered how to make changes more palatable.

Personally, I like the change. Dive Bomb and Tail Wind were both different types of mobility tools, but ultimately both still covered the "mobility tool" niche (and frankly, Dive Bomb was outclassed by melee ground slams except as a delivery vehicle for knockdown). Merging them freed up space in her kit, and to be honest, I don't really understand why someone would want to perform a normal Tail Wind straight down.

 

7 minutes ago, Buzkyl said:

In almost no way is this a negative change

 

• Launching into the air is on charge cast (Speculation: Normal cast is a normal dash?)
• While in air she even hovers fr better manuverability
• You're still able to comedown through divebomb and dash forward through tailwind.
• Potentially, the skill costs less to perform while in air.

 

Divebomb had 1  use, and that was to ground zephyr. It being merged freed up her kit for newer skills.

Ok... I'll try to explain why I hate it:

Current state:
Tailwind is pure mobility. Fine. Even though it is far too costly (although handled, I guess, with the reduced aircast cost)
Divebomb was superuseful for snap CC when enemies get close (quickjump + 2 = insta AoE knockdown without any hassle). Further, considering its damagescaling, it seemed like its purpose was partially intended to be for damage. But it was mostly just used for pure downwards mobility, sadly.

New state:
Tailwind overall is fine for the dashing stuff. No complaints there.
But Divebomb? Much, much MUCH clunkier to use (thus horrible for emergency close range CC), and sadly changed in its overview to be treated as pure "mobility" instead of making it a "high effort/risk, high reward" damage ability.

Tailwind could easily have become another part of her passive (like, by making her have unlimited bulletjumps in the air, for example - or continuous flight forward by holding down the jump-button).
Divebomb could've gotten some better damagetreatments (aimable to some degree, finisher damage and/or much better heighscaling)

I ... just really don't like it.

[MuscleBeach]

24 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

But Divebomb? Much, much MUCH clunkier to use (thus horrible for emergency close range CC), and sadly changed in its overview to be treated as pure "mobility" instead of making it a "high effort/risk, high reward" damage ability.

Exactly how long does it take you to look down? Divebomb still functions the same, assuming there's not hidden details in these notes. You just have to look down now. And I doubt this is directly down, 90 degree angle. There's probably a cone range of angles that you have to look down into... I hope.

And your Divebomb CC is now replaced with a real CC skill. What's the issue with that? Now you don't even have to jump first. So you essentially gained a skill in your kit without really losing anything. 

[Archwizard]

3 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

ASH

Bladestorm - Upon activating Bladestorm, Ash’s clones will do the stabbing, leaving the player free to act. Ash can choose to join in the execution by using Teleport on a marked enemy.

 

ATLAS

Rubble (new mechanic) - Comes from killing petrified enemies. Atlas collects rubble to restore his health, or temporarily increase armor if already at max health.

Landslide - Does bonus damage on petrified enemies. Killing petrified enemies with Landslide generates bonus rubble. We have also increased the contact radius at max rank from 1.5m to 2m.

Petrify - Can use Petrify on Tectonics’ bulwarks to increase rolling velocity and damage. Can also be cast on Rumblers to heal them. Able to cast any ability while Petrify is active - use Landslide to move between enemies or erect rumblers and bulwarks, without Petrify ever turning off! Petrifying speed is also more effective at longer ranges now.

On 3/20/2014 at 6:53 PM, Archwizard said:

- Petrify no longer reduces the user's movement speed while active or prevents the use of his other abilities. Atlas is healed for an amount each time an enemy is fully petrified. Bulwarks and Rumblers will receive healing for every second Atlas channels Petrify on them.

Rumblers - While casting, creates an AoE around Atlas that will petrify any enemy that comes close. Rumblers create rubble when they expire, based on how much health they had.

 

BANSHEE

Resonating Quake (augment) - Upon cast, places a Quake that does not require channeling to maintain, meaning Banshee can move freely. Has a short duration, and does not move with the player. Has double the range of a regular Soundquake, but does more damage near the center.

On 3/21/2014 at 7:22 PM, Azamagon said:

Acoustic Mine

CHROMA

Spectral Scream - Removed walk speed and jump restrictions You can now freely move while this is active! Damage output is now also affected by the Vex Armor's Fury bonus!

On 3/20/2014 at 6:53 PM, Archwizard said:

- Spectral Scream is treated as a weapon (a la Peacemaker) for the purposes of Vex Armor, Shooting Gallery, etc.; cone length and width increased by 50%. No longer slows Chroma or prevents him from jumping or aim-gliding.

Vex Armor - Fixed a longstanding issue with number calculation being multiplicative. Boosts now apply before upgrades instead of after, making the ability consistent with all other damage boosting abilities. Overshields are now considered for Vex Armor. Chroma's Vex Armor remains one of the top performing damage-multipliers in the game - and it's now an aura! Instead of just being focused on Chroma, it can now benefit allies in range.

 

EMBER

World On Fire - 5 seconds after casting, a percentage will begin counting up on the ability icon. As this percentage scales from 0% to 100% over 10 seconds, the ability’s energy cost and damage dealt both grow to double, while the ability radius shrinks to half.

 

GARA

Mass Vitrify - Wall health scales based on health and shields of the enemies it glasses over.

On 12/9/2017 at 4:32 PM, Archwizard said:

Mass Vitrify's panels are affected by the maximum health, shields and armor of all enemies frozen by the cast.

MAG

Polarize - Shards created by Polarize now scale based on power strength, as well as the percentage of damage done to that specific enemy.

Crush - Each stage of crush emits a shield heal from Mag. Restores shields to nearby allies per damage instance, based on the number of enemies affected.
 

VOLT

Discharge - Removed the damage cap. Increased base damage output from 750 to 1200. Damage and stun duration are halved for enemies further away from Volt (affected by Mods).

 

ZEPHYR

Some of Zephyr's abilities are cheaper to cast while airborne - details in progress.

Tail Wind - Combined into a single ability with Dive Bomb. Can be charge cast on the ground, launching Zephyr into the air where she then hovers. In the air, Tail Wind still flies in whatever direction you’re looking, and Dive Bomb activates if cast while looking straight down.

Air Burst - New ability replacing Dive Bomb. A projectile that causes an AoE burst on contact, ragdolling enemies. Can be fired into Tornadoes to make them bigger.

Tornado - Now spawn where player is aiming and can be steered. The closest tornado will move to your aimpoint, meaning you can move them around. Tornado damage type now determined by largest amount of elemental damage absorbed, instead of last type absorbed. Tornadoes do a better job of keeping enemies captured, and shooting Tornadoes will do damage to enemies trapped inside.

On 3/20/2014 at 6:53 PM, Archwizard said:

- Tail Wind [e]ffects merged with Dive Bomb: Aiming in a 90-degree cone beneath Zephyr while airborne will cause her to drop upon the targeted location at high speed.
- Dive Bomb replaced with “Wind Tunnel”: Zephyr continuously fires a cylinder of wind in front of herself, dealing low Impact damage with 100% status chance. Enemies to reach the end of the "beam" will be ragdolled out, while headshots will also inflict knockdown. While active, Zephyr cannot move and is immune to gravity (similar to Absorb), but can turn the beam with the camera.
- Tornado no longer summons cyclones at randomly determined locations [...] In addition, enemies struck will be trapped inside each cyclone for the entire duration rather than ragdolling out of the top, and physical damage dealt to a cyclone is instantly split between all enemies inside of it.

 

Hmm.