Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[Archwizard]

and Miasma has been broken since day 1 :v

reducing Duration reduces Ticks, but also adds more total Damage, even though all it should be doing is making the Damage more upfront.

the math behind Miasma doesn't work at all. 

 

Okay, fair, but in Miasma's case that's more of a programming error towards the way non-entity DoTs are calculated than a mechanical issue of the skill.

I think. I mean... it would make sense that was the case... right?

At any rate, I addressed that in the OP.

 

And armor-peel would totally be worth using! If you're going to a high level Grineer/Infested map, most enemies will have absurd amounts of armor to supplement it, and Corrosive procs can permanently reduce that to 0 (25% at a time, with additive stacking).

[RealPandemonium]

And armor-peel would totally be worth using! If you're going to a high level Grineer/Infested map, most enemies will have absurd amounts of armor to supplement it, and Corrosive procs can permanently reduce that to 0 (25% at a time, with additive stacking).

Infested enemies do not have armor.  Some of them take more Corrosive damage but they do not have armor.

[Archwizard]

Infested enemies do not have armor.  Some of them take more Corrosive damage but they do not have armor.

 

Both "anymore" and "yet" apply here.

Ignoring the fact that one of the calls in the OP was for Infested enemies to adapt damage types from their un-Infested counterparts (including Ferrite armor for Chargers), Devstream 30 showcased an upcoming Mutalist MOA with the ability to create nanite clouds to increase the armor of Infested enemies.

[taiiat]

-snip-

and then there's that juggernaut thingamajig. (wut, spellcheck didn't say that wasn't a word? wow)

 

i wouldn't be surprised if it had Armor.

[Elydir]

Unrelated to Rhino --

 

I'm wondering if maybe I should trim down the Nekros section of the post. At this point, Desecrate has been around for almost a year; changing it without advance warning would just cause a massive uproar of "I put X Forma into my Desecrate build to accomodate Equilibrium".

(Granting, that's in no small part because mods with 10 ranks are sort of absurd to begin with, but that's a discussion for another thread.)

 

Besides... I'm kind of preferring a variant on DiabolusUrsus' version. Especially if I do decide to make an 'alternate abilities' section.

 

To be fair, youd get that reaction with like half the changes in here. Like Reckoning no longer making health orbs or Saryn suddenly carign about Power Duration.

 

You can always adapt what you like from DUs though.

[Archwizard]

 

and then there's that juggernaut thingamajig. (wut, spellcheck didn't say that wasn't a word? wow)

 

i wouldn't be surprised if it had Armor.

 

Given that the Juggernaut is basically Phorid 2.0, Phorid's health type is Sinew, Sinewy enemies are more affected by Finisher damage (as are Ferrite and Alloy enemies) and Sinew is officially referred to as

 

Healing Ancient now has Fossilized health, to be consistent with the other Ancients (was Infested Armour).

 

I would be inclined to agree.

[Guest Tehnoobshow]

How about this for Terrify?

 

Creates an aura within 6 / 9 / 12 / 15 meters around Nekros that lasts for 9 / 12 / 15 / 18 seconds and causes 6 / 8 / 10 / 12 enemies to enter a state of panic upon being cast and 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 more enemies that are not already panicked to enter a state of panic every 3 seconds. While panicked, enemies will not attack and will haphazardly flee, exposing themselves and reducing their armor by 5% / 10% / 15% / 20%. Upon the end of the ability, all panicked enemies within the aura will enter a state of shock and be paralyzed (similar effect to Valkyr's Paralysis)

[DeadVoid118]

In a perfect world, all Warframes would be competent at their role on their own, but capable of great feats of synergy beyond any one frame together. All of their abilities would be useful, mesh together and make sense in their hands (rather than just putting emphasis on spamming the "most useful" button); all of their themes and archetypes would be recognized and done justice. While not all stats would be necessary or useful, no stat would be actively detrimental to improve; Corrupted mods would actually have trade-offs rather than double-dipping in benefits.

This... is not that perfect world.

Some of you may be familiar with another post I made some time back, in which I addressed a disturbing trend with frames – at the time of writing it, theme, synergy and intended gameplay were taking a back seat in frame design to the question of “How many gimmicks can we fit in this one?”, and several frame specialties still have yet to reach any form of equilibrium between pidgeonholing and schizophrenia. Updates that promise to adjust frames often do little more than add small buffs or nerfs, rarely touching on the feeling of playing the frame at all. Frames with confusing roles are never clarified; frames built for a role not meant for their theme are never course-corrected. Disappointing releases are hand-waved with “try it, maybe you’ll like it” – and outcries of “well, we don’t like it” are ignored, in favor of some vague and ominous “silent majority”, or defending the single good skill of the frame to the death.

Numbers can be retuned at any time, but faulty mechanics have proven to be slower and more stubborn to change. Once a frame is released, the damage is already done – and course-correction is accused of being a “major revamp” that threatens to make the frame unrecognizable. Ironic, given that several classes are already barely recognizable from the perspective of someone familiar with those archetypes. Occasionally you’ll hear “Well maybe you should just ask for a new Warframe with that role instead!”, with complete ignorance towards the fact that the most appropriate theme for that position is already (mis)represented here.

Today, I would like to look at what I think Warframe would be like in this hypothetical “perfect world”. Below is a list I’ve compiled of changes to frame behaviors and roles – not just “buffs”, but gameplay-altering adjustments to abilities.

General Gameplay Changes

AI overhaul: Minions (Mind Control, Necrosis, Shadows of the Dead) approach and focus on enemies you zoom in on, ignore cover (and turrets, in the future), and follow you when you leave the room. Unless prompted by the focus command, they will prioritize enemies most damaging to their master, followed by those closest to their master - until their main target is killed in all cases, unless a higher priority interrupts.

Sentinel mods added to dictate behavior: Collecting loot (a la Vacuum), focusing on cameras, shooting at traps, etc.; Looter (container-shooting mod) officially released.

--> Vacuum changed from “pick up loot” to “generate loot”, a la Desecrate (barring health orbs, and potentially mods).

--> Ghost breaks X sec after initiating an attack, affected by rank.

--> Investigator scans faster based on mod rank, faster than a normal Codex scanner at max rank.

--> Vaporize cooldown inversely affected by mod rank.

Damage tables reworked:

1) Radiation more effective against Infested Flesh than Robotics, Magnetic more effective against Ferrite Armor than Infested Flesh; Bleed damage is reduced on shielded targets, Toxin status can only bring you as low as 1 HP (on its own), Burn procs can be stacked

2) Sinew removed (all Ancients classed Fossilized), universal Robotic modifier shared between Grineer/Corpus tech (Grineer machines having Ferrite armor while Corpus machines utilize Shields), no more than 2 Flesh types in all (one for Infested, one for everyone else)

3) Armor types between factions are more unified – Infested Chargers have residual Ferrite Armor from their days as Grineer soldiers, Corpus Crewman have Ferrite Armor modifiers on their helmets, Mutalists have Robotic modifiers, etc.

 

Stats separated from cosmetic helmets: Perhaps some system to grant similar (free) stat variations to the frame could be implemented through the loadout screen instead.

--> Edit 5/7: As of Update 13.2.3, stat-based helmets cannot be obtained anymore. However, this still poses an issue in that Arcane helmets can be traded, and you are forced to make a one-time decision to remove the stats from a helmet if you want to use it for aesthetics alone. The complete retroactive separation of stats from helmets (that is to say, the removal of Arcane helmets and distribution of their effects elsewhere) is still requested here.

Stealth Rewards: Enemies can have the minimum rarity/quantity of their loot drops increased by up to two "ranks" – one rank if they are unalerted when killed, and a second rank if the alarm has never been set off prior to their stealth kill (deactivating the alarm will not return a loot rank, and they must still be killed without alerting them).

 

General ability changes:

1) "First Precept" skills (Sonic Boom, Null Star, etc.) no longer have an animation lock and can always be cast while moving

2) "Hitscan" skills with precise targeting (Mind Control, Venom, etc) can auto-target the nearest enemy to the player's cursor if within line of sight or a certain range of the player's focal point – more forgiving targeting

3) Damage-focused abilities will deal additional damage equal to a percentage of the targets' maximum health (scaling with Power Strength). For example, Fireball could do 400 damage plus 5% of a target's HP.

 

Ember

Chickenframe's most polarizing recent change is the removal of Overheat and its replacement with Accelerant, which marked a dramatic shift in her role and playstyle. As the fire elemental frame, her major prey consists of the melee-oriented Infested, so an ability that hurt anyone that came too close was very much in-line with her skillset – and the damage reduction, given how squishy she’s generally considered to be, did not hurt at all. Thing is, the devs decided to change her role entirely from “running through the house, burning everything” to “totally wizard” – which is arguably a respectable change, given that nobody could be satisfied while Overheat was available (namely the case of reducing it from near godmode down to a mere 40% damage reduction), and it just made her very… chaotic to play. Of course, now they have the issue where she’s overspecialized (again); even though Damage 2.0 made Heat damage more appealing against all enemy types rather than just Infested, Accelerant serves only to consistently benefit Ember – especially since you can get more damage out of combining elements on weapons, double-especially Gas damage against her undead prey (and in this post alone, Radiation too). What Ember needs is just a shred more versatility (and survivability) within her new role.

 

Archetype: Ranged Caster and Skirmisher.

Suggested changes:

- Accelerant also increases the damage of Heat-based combination elements (Gas, Radiation, Blast), and roots all affected targets in place for the duration rather than staggering. Duration reduced to compensate.

- Fire Blast deals combination Heat/Blast damage on-cast; cast animation changed to resemble Exima iteration. Enemies inside the lingering flames take damage over time. The impact radius is affected by Power Range, but the circle is not.

- World on Fire gains a “seared earth” visual effect under Ember’s feet, to mark the targeting radius.

The idea here is that Ember remains an anti-Infested frame by increasing her CC: melee enemies can be knocked back or trapped inside Fire Blast's circle of flames by using Accelerant, and Ember rains down molotovs and searing plasma on her ensnared foes from a distance. It gives the player some use for Fire Blast via knockback, and makes Accelerant more accessible to allies.

It also combines some of the effectiveness of Fire Leaders and Sargas Ruk, since the addition of Blast Damage can ragdoll enemies away. Fits the name too!

No, it’s not as good as Overheat, but it gives her durability through CC, and (if used tactically) can make her basically immune to her main prey for a short time... barring Crawler variants.

 

Frost

Frost is currently in a state of flux due to DE finally cracking down on him only having one skill worth using (Snow Globe)… and maybe focusing on the wrong areas. The good news is that Snow Globe is back to something of a high point, since it lasts more than a millisecond in high-level content (due to its brief immunity and multiple scaling knobs). The bad news is that his other skills are still fairly bland, since their changes have really only come to the point of giving him more (rather unnecessary) damage, in spite of his defensive role and heavily CC-themed element. Here when we heard their codename for Freeze in 12.0 was “Ice Blast”, we thought it’d at least have a more forgiving targeting radius… rather than literally being the exact same skill with higher damage and a lower CC cap (as levels go up).

To top it off, there was a brief “bug” with Avalanche that players thought was something they could capitalize on, where enemies were CC'd for a rather impressively long time, something that we've always felt Frost should be capable of given how disappointing Freeze is – until they patched it out. It's been noted that even Nova is a stronger CCer than Frost is, which means its time for ice-elemental CC to make a comeback.

 

Archetype: Area Defender.

 

Suggested changes:

- Freeze splash-CCs a limited number of enemies (affected by Power Strength) nearest the impact location per cast; damage on impact reduced to compensate. CC damage cap removed; solely uses Power Duration. Can only stun and slow bosses.

- Ice Wave also has knockback.

- Snow Globe can be penetrated by player weapons with Punch Through, and the slow effect scales with Power Range to the edge of the globe, stacking with Cold procs.

- Avalanche applies damage first, then staggers and freezes survivors for a few seconds based on rank, unaffected by Power Duration.

 

Optimally, the Frost can cast a Snow Globe and use a combination of Freeze and Ice Wave both to keep enemies out of the globe and reduce incoming damage to the globe once its grace period ends, thereby extending the amount of damage it can take. If enemies are coming from too many directions, the player can tap Avalanche for a radial stun and more time.

There's a common suggestion for Ice Wave to leave a patch of cold on the ground like the traps in Void missions, but there are two problems there: First, that's basically what Snow Globe is for when fighting melee enemies, to create a sustainable area slow (the problems being that the slowed area doesn't scale, nor can you shoot the enemies from outside). Second, how does a 4 second Cold proc measure up to a 10 second mass Freeze? Giving Ice Wave a knockback pairs up better with Snow Globe overall for the reasons stated above.

Worst case, Avalanche remains a bland, low-damage skill, which encourages it to be used only as a panic button if more cost-efficient means are already prevalent; best case, its role as a brief radial freeze is emphasized, even in light of an AoE buff to Freeze.

 

Nekros (Warning: Verbose)

Nekros is the first of the most recent frames on the list of disappointing releases, especially to players who were expecting him to live up to his name. “But Arch,” I can already hear you say, “There’s nothing wrong with a good old-fashioned support class! Desecrate’s great for Survivals, and his other skills make him great at CC!” Well, that’s exactly what’s wrong with him: He needs three, gimmicky, sub-par CC skills to do the job of a single decent one, but nobody seems to mind because all he really means to them is extra O2 packs and triple their high score; the other three skills are treated like high-cost fringe benefits, rather than the thematic parts of his skillset worth focusing on. He’s got THE single-most RNG-infested ability in the game (which relies on Equilibrium gimmickry to boot), which his users can’t help but cast over and over to the complete exclusion of his other skills in build or in gameplay – and to top it off, those three CCs of his scatter corpses by design, reducing the set's synergy. It’s not that Nekros has Desecrate, it’s that he IS Desecrate with a hood and skeletal body, and that’s plain wrong; Desecrate itself may not be, but Nekros with it is. Without the O2 generation, outcry would have forced him to improve months ago.

Not to forget the mod/resource drops, which make him more suited for actively playing the metagame rather than actual content. At best it's a bandaid for the game's innate RNG issues (which require more widespread solutions), at worst it just forces Nekros into the farming niche (which again, sacrifices playing the actual content of the game with an enjoyable playstyle for “stand back and spam 3”).

The recent changes to Frost prove one thing: DE may not necessarily enjoy the prospect of one frame being absurd and irreplaceable for one mission. The change to Snow Globe encouraged players to find new, more skillful ways to run Defenses – and I think it’s past time to give the same treatment to Survivals (or just double O2 spawn rates baseline).

If you need more convincing, I’m sure you can find my threads and essays about him on this forum (some of which are linked below).

Archetype: Necromancer – which means Minion/Swarm Master, NOT Farmer.

Suggested changes:

- Soul Punch replaced with “Necrosis”: Injects the target with a Viral DoT. If the target dies by any means while the DoT is active, they resurrect upon death as a minion that periodically loses a percentage of its health as long as it’s active (no timer). Enemy DoT duration increased AND minion health loss decreased by Power Duration. On cooldown (“Power In Use”) while a living enemy is afflicted, but not once a minion is raised by the effect.

--> Limit to the number of enemies that can be raised at once TBD; presently, no limit is called for.

--> Alternately, keep Soul Punch, but replace the secondary projectile with an instant version of the same minion-raising effect.

- Terrify traded with third skill slot. No longer has a cooldown or armor debuff, and instead debuffs movement speed of affected targets based on mod rank. Cast time halved.

--> Against players, Terrify also inverts movement controls and disables all attacks for a few seconds (as it cannot simulate AI change on players).

- Desecrate replaced with “Soul Feast”: Deals instant Viral damage to enemies in a cone in front of Nekros, then releases a pulse of radial healing from Nekros to allies (including minions) based on accumulated damage dealt.

--> Desecrate’s cast animation is moved to Nekros’ unarmed Agile stance idle, to give his animations more diversity. His Noble gets something ceremonial, his Agile gets something less rigid.

- Shadows of the Dead gains a visual indicator for souls collected (wisps a la Null Star, and a screen caption much like Absorb's damage count). Shadows are also intangible to Tenno, allowing players to shoot and walk through them.

 

Alternatives to the above (credit to DiabolusUrsus!)

Note: This quotation has been trimmed. For a full list of the original author's suggestions, click the redirect arrow!

In addition to the Minion AI changes mentioned under General:

Consider the Terrify suggestion here interchangeable with that from my suggestion.

My changes:

- Desecrate and Terrify swap rarities/mod costs/precept positions.

- Terrify no longer debuffs armor. Affected enemies out of the crawling range also shoot with reduced accuracy when aiming at Nekros.

- Shadows of the Dead costs 25 energy +3/sec. Minions are intangible to players and last as long as Nekros is channeling, and there is still a maximum number based on Power Strength (more are re-raised as his current arsenal falls, prioritizing the closest over the farthest and ignoring other Shadow corpses).

 

Combined with the AI tweaks mentioned under “General” above, this will course-correct Nekros back to the role he should have had all along: minion support and control, with side benefits that splash over to non-minion allies just enough to make each skill stand alone. A player can raise a minion with Necrosis and keep it active as long as they want using Soul Feast – as long as they have the energy and enemies to drain. It's a self-balancing tool, since minions with higher level/output would be harder to sustain (losing health both to the periodic effect and enemies, though the latter is treated with Terrify), and the “Power In Use” makes building up a massive army a very slow process. Players would also be less tempted to ignore small units and hunt heavies to fill up Shadows of the Dead, if they had an alternative means to raise those heavies and instead used Shadows to snap-bolster their army.

Alternately, they could continue to ignore smaller enemies and just use Terrify. In which case, it's about giving players more options on how to play.

Why Viral damage? Because it’s more effective against living enemies than Infested or Robots, and its proc gives the effect of actually sapping the target’s life force.

Why keep Terrify’s target limit instead of the cooldown? Because it’s harder to recast a skill that lasts as long as an enemy is afflicted, when you’re making enemies basically invisible. If your minions do their jobs right (murder is the best CC), you won't need to CC more than a few targets at a time anyway.

Plus, it would make Terrify really similar to Chaos with an unlimited target selection and “Power In Use” error. Even with Bastille's casting limitations, the two are very dissimilar in execution: Bastille has a dynamic durational effect with a range, while Terrify is a point-blank instant effect. Bastille's shorter, while Terrify doesn't leave foes quite as helpless. Skill diversity that doesn't rely on giving an ability the worst of both worlds (being a 2-skill worth 75 energy), what's up!

 

Important Note About Desecrate: It's been a while since Nekros was released, and I've cooled down from my initial impression about the skill itself (the word “non-thematic” was used a lot, as several of you rolled your eyes). It's not an awful ability to have when you're grinding, but I stand firm to the facts I've presented. Experience has told us all that you need to waste a lot on it to get any use out of it; builds for it take a chunk out of the rest of your Power Strength and Duration-based skillset, you always have stubborn corpses that refuse to release anything for four to six casts, etc. Ultimately, Desecrating makes playing Nekros feel like... a chore.

The ability would be more bearable if you didn't have to cast it a half dozen times (outrunning a clock, no less) for best results. At the same time though, giving a guaranteed method of spawning loot every button press (and not being able to press it when you can't...) is absolutely game-breaking. You could do something like a healing wave every cast instead of a chance to spawn health orbs, but then you're just giving a spammed ability a situational effect; you could give it a corpse explosion that disintegrates corpses on the first use, but then you have a skill that pulls double- or triple-duty (imagine a less situational Shield Polarize with loot) - and again, thematic as it would be, it still wouldn't work any better with the set. Either way, you'd have to cut down on the loot production to balance it out, which should never have been a choice to have to make in the first place.

Very important distinction to make here: I don't hate what Desecrate does to the game. I hate what it does to the player, because of what it does to the game.

Could the need to spam it be improved? Absolutely. Will it be improved? Not realistically.

So, that's why.

 

Oberon

Oberon is our most recent venture into blatantly false-advertising, and unlike Nekros, nobody is fooled. Scott hyped that Oberon would “increase team survivability ... like a paladin” – but all Oberon has in the way of that is Renewal, which (with the removal of its revival bug) is half as effective at overall healing as Trinity’s Well of Life (with triple the cost!), and infinitely less useful than the instant 100% Blessing in general (at ¾ the cost); he even completely ignored that paladins, as knights, have high mitigation from their heavy armor and oaths to protect their fellows. Ultimately he comes off more like a "holy" caster (cleric? priest?) than a paladin.

More damaging, though, is that Scott said Oberon’s abilities “work really well together”… which hurts, because the rest are all non-interactive, blatant damage skills (which again, all fall off as level increase), which just makes it sound like he has low standards, or at best confusing ones when Oberon’s sandwiched between Valkyr, and Zephyr (whose skills combine fantastically and fit her role to a T). In several cases, the skills are totally unreliable – Smite's projectiles bounce randomly, Reckoning relies on both a killing blow and RNG to proc the health orb effect, and Hallowed Ground has no way to keep enemies caught within its bounds.

The worst thematic failing of all for Oberon, however, isn’t even directly related to him – he’s a paladin who can’t properly smite the undead, because he deals mostly Radiation (as a stand-in for light/holy), which is awful against Infested and more potent against Robotics. While I took care of that nail under “General”, it leaves the rest of his largely unreliable skillset.

The important thing to remember about Oberon, is that he is not Trinity; a paladin is essentially a jack-of-all-trades, well-balanced between offense and defense. Unfortunately, Oberon really isn't, being largely skewed more towards offense – and the flat damage values of his attacks make him ineffective at that beyond a certain point. What he needs is some scaling utility if he wants to be useful past the mid-game.

 

Archetype: Paladin – in this case meaning Melee Offender and Mitigation Buffer.

Suggested changes:

- Smite replaced with “Durendal”: Inflicts heavy Radiation/Slash damage in a short, wide cone in front of the player; each enemy hit adds to the combo counter.

- Hallowed Ground is summoned under Oberon's feet and grants (stackable) damage reduction to allies standing in it. Status chance increased (not to 100%, but a substantial amount).

- Renewal is now a Toggled aura (15 energy +6/sec?) that follows Oberon, periodically healing all allies (including pets) within a limited range for a flat amount, affected by Power Strength; no longer has travel time or delay. Activating Renewal also instantly purges status effects from allies within range (but only on the first pulse) and increases recovery time. No longer has inverse Duration scaling; base periodic healing tripled.

- Reckoning no longer rolls for health orbs, but increases its damage as the target's health gets lower; damage changed to Radiation/Finisher.

- Armor increased to 155 (equal to Saryn – leaving him with higher speed and lower health than her, equal in all other ways). No other stat changes.

 

Credit to Momaw for inspiring the Renewal change!

 

The idea here is that, as a paladin, Oberon is inspired to get up close and personal with enemies. Durendal and Hallowed Ground become his main outputs of damage in closed-quarters combat, while using the armor benefits of Hallowed Ground to increase the efficiency of Renewal's healing. His main weaknesses should (as a knight) be lack of range or mobility in his skills, but he should still have the damage, crowd control and survivability to make up for this.

Reckoning currently gets a benefit from using it as the killing blow against enemies, but given the unreliable damage and utility Oberon currently provides, it's mostly just spammed to the exclusion of his other abilities. With those now changed, the idea is that Reckoning is used more selectively as a scaling execution-style skill.

Combined with a change to Radiation damage to be more effective against Infested tumors (mentioned under General), adding Slash damage to his repertoire would make him a fine anti-Infested unit. Since he's supposed to be smiting evil as well, the Slash damage can deal with light Grineer and Corpus units, while Radiation would deal with the armor of heavier Grineer combatants.

 

Saryn

Far as I can tell, Saryn was intended to be a melee frame, or at best mid-range. She has above-average defense like a melee would need, relatively low range on her direct-damage abilities, and an ability that makes her melee attacks deal more elemental damage. Her major issue is that, since Damage 2.0, the Poison/Toxic element in itself isn’t all that effective, since it doesn’t ignore all forms of defense anymore – thus making Contagion less effective as a damage skill, and reducing her appeal in melee. To make matters worse, it costs 75 energy for a buff that only affects Saryn herself, and only with melee attacks; if she doesn't have a melee weapon equipped, then it becomes completely useless. Speed and Warcry completely blow it out of the water, since they grant a substantial boost to the whole party (and, between Speed's lower cost and Warcry's debuff, are more cost effective to boot!). It's been repeatedly called a useless and forgettable ability, so perhaps it's time for Saryn to… shed her skin, so to speak.

 

Archetype: Mid-Range Debuffer.

 

Suggested changes:

- Venom spores are more responsive to melee and area-effect attacks, and unpopped spores deal half damage to nearby enemies when their host dies.

- Molt transfers all buffs, debuffs and statuses from the casting Saryn to the decoy upon summoning. Explosion radius increased.

- Contagion replaced with “Allure”: Grants damage mitigation to the caster, with a small Gas damage aura surrounding Saryn capable of popping Venom spores.

--> Alternately, allow Molt to explode for Gas damage and Allure to deal Toxin damage (though what is above fits better, thematically).

- Miasma's status chance per tick is increased. Power Duration adds additional ticks with stagger; reducing Power Duration no longer increases damage dealt.

 

Yes, Allure is both a perfume pun (THOSE HEELS and fungal growths THOUGH) and a revival of Overheat. Scott has already said Overheat was not right in Ember’s hands, and I’m inclined to agree – it’s not fit for someone intended to spam Fireball from half a room away, but it’s perfect for someone with Saryn's values of range and defense. Plus, it opens the door to let Saryn use every Toxin-based element (she’s already got three!). With the change to Molt, the player can now transfer the mitigation to the Molt to make it last longer (plus Gas damage for those melee enemies), culminating in one final explosion of poison damage (or two, since Molt does more damage if it lasts the whole duration - benefiting from mitigation). Alternately, players can Leeroy Jenkins with Allure up for maximum Venom effectiveness, bringing Saryn back to her glory days of a hundred DoT ticks a second. Meanwhile, Miasma has armor-reducing DoT to take advantage of the way Corrosive procs stack (THAT’s how you do an anti-armor skill, NOT Terrify), skyrocketing Saryn’s damage utility against all factions.

 

Everyone Else A-M

Note: This section primarily consists of minor tweaks, and revamps I didn’t consider terribly substantial. If you have more to say about your favorite frame being in here rather than up above (or off this list entirely), feel free to complain below.

 

Ash

- Shuriken gain a stealth modifier against unalerted enemies. 

- Teleport can be cast without a target, moving the player as close to the targeted location as Power Range allows. If a target is selected, casting Teleport automatically begins a hastened finisher on the enemy - skip the elaborate weapon draw, and double the animation speed of the strike.

Banshee

- Sonic Boom's damage now matches Pull, and can be cast without interrupting reloads

- Sonar now prioritizes the least armored spot on the target's body, if it exists. No more wasted orange spots on the boss' invulnerable body!

Excalibur

- Slash Dash increases Excalibur's melee combo count by 1 per enemy hit.

- Radial Javelins briefly pin enemies in place if they simultaneously penetrate the ground or a wall (ie if cast in the air; root unaffected by Power Duration). The animation speed is increased, but if cast on the ground, the javelins will revolve around Excalibur for a moment to deal additional staggering damage to nearby enemies (unaffected by Power Range) before launching. Launched Javelins will Punch Through. Casting Radial Javelin will preserve Excalibur's melee combo count through the animation, but not increase it.

Hydroid

- Tempest Barrage no longer returns Power In Use errors, and can be recast while active.

- Tidal Surge collects and continuously pushes enemies caught in it for the remainder of the duration.

- Undertow removes collision for enemies that wander into the pool.

Loki

- Decoy detonates upon destruction, staggering all enemies within range (but not dealing any damage).

- Switch Teleport can target Explosive Barrels and Arc Traps. Enemies will continue shooting at Loki's original location as if he entered stealth; hostile targets can receive friendly fire during this period.

- Radial Disarm disables the abilities and flight of Mutalist Ospreys and Grineer Regulators (as with Corpus Ospreys), and disables Hellion jetpacks; additionally, all Grineer Machinery, Corpus Robotics or Mutalist Infested are damaged and stunned for a brief period.

Mag

- Pull once again knocks down and drags enemies, rather than ragdoll-flinging them; can be used through walls. Damage is kept the same.

- Bullet Attractor cost reduced to 35, explosion removed; enemy shots within sphere automatically redirect rather than waiting to hit the edge, and all redirected shots gain Punch Through.

- Crush deals Magnetic/Finisher damage, ragdolls affected enemies, and prevents recovery for a period affected by Power Duration.

 

Mirage

- Sleight of Hand causes access panels to explode as soon as the enemy tries to use them, and renders the panel permanently broken; lockers will suck nearby enemies inside for the remainder of the duration, a la Undertow.

- Prism initial cost reduced.

 

Everyone Else N-Z

Note: This section primarily consists of minor tweaks, and revamps I didn’t consider terribly substantial. If you have more to say about your favorite frame being in here rather than up above (or off this list entirely), feel free to complain below.

 

Nova

- Null Star has Punch Through and staggers targets on every hit

- Wormhole’s logic changes from Update 11.5 are reverted – no more redirecting into walls, please.

Nyx

- Mind Control prevents the target from receiving damage from Tenno while active, THEN deals the accumulated damage the target would have taken from Tenno when the effect ends.

- Psychic Bolts gain innate penetration against environmental objects if cast while zoomed, explode on impact (with the target if zoomed or environment if not), and do not cell-shade enemies until they've impacted.

Rhino

- Iron Skin also passively increases aggro/threat generated by the player (but not as high as Absorb)

- Arcane Vanguard Helmet reduced from +25% Speed to +10-15% Speed

- Gravity increased, opposite Zephyr being lighter; this should reflect in Heavy Impact effectiveness

Trinity

- Well of Life's life drain can also revive downed players with the amount of health drained, a la old Renewal. Well of Life can be recast while active to move the effect to a new target and clear the previous effect.

- Blessing gives the entire party damage immunity for the period of the (unaltered) cast animation, unaffected by rank or Power Strength.

 

Valkyr

- Rip Line casts against the environment treat Valkyr as if she's performing a divekick during the grapple effect, knocking down enemies she passes through.

- Paralysis stun duration doubled.

 

Vauban

- Tesla staggers on every hit

- Bounce only procs for allies upon jumping within (on the ground) or near it (on walls), rather than instantly flinging players

Volt 

- Speed's visual distortion reduced

- Electric Shield can be picked up by the casting Volt (a la datamasses) by pressing the player's action key, causing it to hover over their cursor for the remainder of the duration (limit 1 per player, cannot be put down); central distortion reduced/transparency increased (perhaps completely transparent barring a cell-shaded outline and occasional arc across the surface?)

Zephyr

- Tail Wind causes the player to hover in the air (immune to gravity) for a moment after casting

- Dive Bomb explosion has penetration against environmental objects, and allows the player to angle the dive if cast while pointed within a 90-degree cone below Zephyr.

If you have any adjustments of your own to add to the list, or would like to argue about what’s already there, feel free.

And if you think “everything's fine as it is”, this is clearly not the thread for you.

While I absolutely love most of your ideas, Rhino is already bad as it is. His iron skin is almost insta-killed late game, he needs a buff, not to be slowed even more! He is also already slow, thereby giving him that "heavy" feeling. Your logic is invalid.

[taiiat]

Rhino is already bad as it is

 

Your logic is invalid.

- not at all. Rhino is atleast above average at everything.

 

- and using poisonus words like this invalidates only yourself.

[Archwizard]

Some thoughts I've been having about Rhino/IS (brought up by suggestions I've seen in this thread and elsewhere):

 

- There's potential for Iron Skin to be made into a toggle, to make the skill more tactical rather than a glorified passive.

- Potential to utilize both the snap damage-blocker we have now, and the mitigation it needs to scale, if it's a toggle. The question is implementation.

--> Idea 1: Tapping Iron Skin immediately applies the flat damage absorb we have now, but if it runs out while still toggled active then you receive % mitigation.

--> Idea 2: Tapping Iron Skin immediately applies the % mitigation, but when toggled off or energy runs out, you get a damage absorb based on the damage that was mitigated. (Will likely need a max duration on toggle, absorb functions as present.)

--> Alternatives welcome.

- Potential for the 'heaviness' to be moved only onto Iron Skinned users (although I personally think it should be on Rhino at all times).

- I still believe the Arcane Vanguard should be nerfed, and that of all the things that could affect the Rhino Prime + Vanguard supermobility, this penalizes the fewest players going forward.

Edited August 1, 2014 by Archwizard

[Elydir]

--> Alternatives welcome.

 

You could leave it as is, and have the skin be based off a percentage reduction for a multiple of character health.

 

Basically, if you have , say, 500 health, the skin will absorb, un modded, 50% of the damage you take, up to say, 2000 damage, 4x your max health. Being a tank that's built to absorb, but should be penalized for not moving around like his first ability would have you do, it make sense for only a percent damage reduction, and basing it off health requires you to effectively use his 2 D polarities. btw, the armor health would should have double rhinos armor total.

[DeadVoid118]

All tanks need a buff, and a debuff. Kind of like Frost and Rhino getting armor defend their shields too, or maybe when they lvl shield mods and such effect their shields, NOT BASE SHIELDS

Would be much better tanks need a buff, but then a debuff, less damage? Or something

[Jaycemonde]

This really needs to be pinned. It's the most well thought-out retune thread there is.

 

Edit: Ember isn't Chickenframe! She's totally Punkframe. Look at those suspenders, those spiked shoes and that mohawk. And the fact she's an arsonist, complete with the newfound ability to spill gasoline on people she doesn't like.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Jaycemonde

[Monolake]

I would say some changes are not enough to make the skills good.

[Archwizard]

I would say some changes are not enough to make the skills good.

 

Are you referring to specific cases in the OP, or just saying in general?

[Monolake]

Are you referring to specific cases in the OP, or just saying in general?

I'll take some time to write my thoughts on weak abilities in more details.

Edited August 5, 2014 by Monolake

[Archwizard]

I'll take some time to write my thoughts on weak abilities in more details.

 

Looking forward to it.

[Elydir]

Noticed another thread that was talking about Decaoy:

 

So with the release of Mirage and her hall of mirrors, Decoy feels useless in lvl20+ because he;ll be dead immediately. If it would be only time based it would have a chance to do its intended purpose. I don't see how this will be game breaking either since you still have to actually kill the enemies. 

 

I think its a good point, probably better to have it do that than stun enemies when it dies. Whaddoya think?

[taiiat]

I think its a good point, probably better to have it do that than stun enemies when it dies. Whaddoya think?

my Decoy's last just fine, against even very high Level Enemies. they normally last their entire Duration against all but the highest Level Enemies.

 

placement is key with a Decoy, keeping it out of the line of fire but still providing the aggro benefits you're looking for.

[Elydir]

my Decoy's last just fine, against even very high Level Enemies. they normally last their entire Duration against all but the highest Level Enemies.

 

placement is key with a Decoy, keeping it out of the line of fire but still providing the aggro benefits you're looking for.

 

Doesn't that not work always though?

 

Wouldn't hurt to let you place Decoy multiple times, in case you cant keep it up in endgame. Say 2-3 at once?

[taiiat]

Doesn't that not work always though?

 

Wouldn't hurt to let you place Decoy multiple times, in case you cant keep it up in endgame. Say 2-3 at once?

if where you're placing it is getting killed instantly, then wherever you're placing it isn't a good spot.

 

there's plenty of spots in each tile that let you place your Decoys in a sheltered but accessible location, therefore Enemies will be drawn towards it. they might destroy it when they get LOS and shoot it, but you kept it sheltered which forced them to walk over to where you wanted them to go. the Decoy served it's purpose.

 

and i have a feeling placing several Decoys wouldn't have the intended effect. i can imagine Enemies getting stuck trying to decide which Decoy to go to, or the Enemies going for different Decoys and spreading out, Et Cetera.

[BrazilianJoe]

Thoughts on Nekros:

 

Desecrate-spamming is tedious. It could cost more but be sure-proof to work, but I wouldn't mind it is left as is.

 

Soul-punch: as is I think it is kinds forgettable. I like best the 'soul snare' idea which would remove the soul from an enemy (up to 4) for a limited time, during which it would be ragdolled. Killing the ragdolled enemy would grant Nekros a bit of health/energy and perhaps a damage/armor buff.

 

I like the Idea of Shadows of The Dead as a toggle-able which would automatically raise corpses close to Nekros. I'd just add one thing: There should be also a shadow of Nekros as well while the skill is active. This Nekros-shadow would be invulnerable and have the caster's weapons, and would have a single skill: Terrify, which it would only use if the Nekros caster himself falls and start bleeding out to revive him. 

Edited August 11, 2014 by BrazilianJoe

[Archwizard]

Came to the realization that all Radial Javelin needs, is the ability to be affected by the Combo Multiplier.

 

Makes Excalibur much more fluid and melee-oriented - use Radial Blind to increase melee damage, use Slash Dash to build combo count, use Radial Javelin as an uber-finisher. Augment Dash and Javelin with Super Jump.

[taiiat]

Came to the realization that all Radial Javelin needs, is the ability to be affected by the Combo Multiplier.

oh my god that's awesome.

 

imagine the carnage that would come from Radial Javelin being bumped up with the Combo Multiplier.

 

 

 

infinite amounts of want. that combined with Radial Blind increasing Damage as an opener, Slash Dash to mop up small clusters, and then Radial Javelin like an explosion of swords.

 

:D

Edited August 12, 2014 by taiiat

[Nichivo]

There is much to cover here, so I will confine my response to just Nekros. If you want to rework soul punch or make it scale better or even change it fine. If you want to make some tweaks to Terrify or SotD, ok maybe... just do not remove the debuff of terrify, and frankly only some AI tweaks are needed on SotD but I'm open to other ideas. Desecrate is fine you hardly have to give up all the utility of sotd and terrify just to be able to mass spam desecrate, and in extended survival runs the debuff is real nice. I wouldn't be bothered if desecrate was a little more reliable cause sometimes staring at the corpse while spamming is annoying. Note firing a round into a corpse tends to stop the need to spam and cause it to give up the goods more often than not so it's probably a bug.

 

Nekros currently has three nice skills, and one that scales really bad no matter what you do. I just do not understand why giving up 3 good skills for four mediocre ones is going to be better?