Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[Archwizard]

-snip-

 

Limbo:

Went back on having a duration-canceling generic ability a while ago (around the time toggling came out and made it unnecessary). 

Sounds like a good change for Cataclysm - although I expect the developers have a totally different direction in mind with it, particularly because of the shrinking effect.

 

Ember:

I think the devs will be slow to scrap a second ability from the same toolkit with her, but I can do a write-up of what I had in mind anyway:

EITHER:

- Fire Blast's ring acts as an impenetrable wall to enemies on either side of it(?) and inflicts Burn on anyone who makes contact with it. Allies who pass through the ring are also cauterized, receiving low healing.

OR

- Fire Blast replaced with "Propellant": Ember sprays a narrow cone of flames directly in front of herself, dealing damage over time to foes in front of her and pushing herself backward.

 

I would like more people to voice their opinion before I proceed with either option, of course.

[Elydir]

EITHER:

- Fire Blast's ring acts as an impenetrable wall to enemies on either side of it(?) and inflicts Burn on anyone who makes contact with it. Allies who pass through the ring are also cauterized, receiving low healing.

OR

- Fire Blast replaced with "Propellant": Ember sprays a narrow cone of flames directly in front of herself, dealing damage over time to foes in front of her and pushing herself backward.

 

Accelerant and propellant are really similar name wise but I feel its more likely than buffing Fire Blast (a damage tool on a damage frame vs utility? FB doesnt stand a chance.). And it would be a pretty unreliable escape move.

 

The healing on Fire Blast would make her tookit interesting but the CC is op if its impenetrable. What you already have in the OP would make more sense to let enemies wander around.

[GreyEnneract]

In the official Limbo feedback thread DE is looking into combining Banish and Rift Walk.

As for Ember, her 3 and 2 should just be combined and turned into the Fire Eximus' skill.

It would spread out and knock down enemies in range, and if they lived they would take more damage from fire.

Edited November 5, 2014 by GreyEnneract

[PsiWarp]

I agree with all your Limbo changes, however about Banish... rather than completely cancel the Banish effect when teammates shoot non-rift entities, could it perhaps be reworked as a toggleable state that other players can control through their actions?

For example:

- Ash gets Banished by Limbo.

- Banish works as a buff on Ash that lasts however long Limbo has modded Power Duration.

- When Ash attacks rift entities, he stays in the rift.

- When Ash attacks non-rift entities, he momentarily phases back to normal plane.

- Ash then phases back to the rift after x seconds or immediately if he attacks a rift-entity.

This way, Limbo doesn't need to micromanage (desperately try to aim at) his fast moving teammates in the heat of battle, and only need to buff them once in a while. Although, the rift graphics should be toned down or it can be seizure-inducing... what do you think?

Edit: also, a way for teammates to kill that Banished target when Limbo doesn't let you would be nice. Maybe like, when a player touches a banished enemy, that player gets the Banish buff as well, so he/she can kill the banished enemy. Though, the buff would end when the banished enemy dies, so Limbo has a reason to use Banish on teammates directly for the full duration.

Edited November 5, 2014 by PsiWarp

[Noble_Cactus]

In the official Limbo feedback thread DE is looking into combining Banish and Rift Walk.

As for Ember, her 3 and 2 should just be combined and turned into the Fire Eximus' skill.

It would spread out and knock down enemies in range, and if they lived they would take more damage from fire.

 

I'm guessing that new Fire Blast would be affected by Duration mods in the same way Molecular Prime is affected by Duration?

[GreyEnneract]

I'm guessing that new Fire Blast would be affected by Duration mods in the same way Molecular Prime is affected by Duration?

That would help synergize with her ultimate requiring duration.

[Vortok]

Last I checked, Saryn's Miasma didn't have a status chance at all (corrosive, stun is guaranteed and not influenced by power duration).  Messed around with it a bit (and played Saryn a decent bit in general) and I've never noticed it proccing the Corrosive status ailment even once.

 

In my little corner of ideal fantasy world, Miasma would more or less function like it currently does except it'd have a semi-decent Corrosive proc chance and the proc chance could be raised/lowered by Power Strength.

 

With the way corrupted mods work, they'd all have tradeoffs.  Lower duration applies damage faster, as it currently does, but less ticks means less chances for Corrosive procs (last I knew, multiple procs stack) and thus a positive duration build would be desirable if planning to use Miasma for the new status portion.  Narrow Minded lowers range (an obvious issue), but since Power Strength would now influence proc rate, Overextended is no longer an easy, no brainer equip when fighting stuff that barely feels the actual damage that the power does - thus keeping Power Damage as a potentially important stat even into higher level play.

 

Power Damage impacted the proc rate of Venom for similar reasons might also be interesting, but I haven't played around with it nearly enough (especially due to the ability to cast it multiple times) to have a significant idea of how effective the current Viral proc rate is.

 

 

This could help give her a lot more value against high level Grineer (and Void to a lesser extent).  Does kind of depend on exactly how the Corrosive proc works.  Whether it strips a % of armor or a flat amount, since if it's a flat amount it may be too small to matter against really high level Grineer.  Was never able to find much info in that area.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Vortok

[taiiat]

-snip-

it's marginally better that way, but Miasma is a bland AoE Blast that brings almost nothing to the table. being able to get a few Corrosive Effects means that it's a really expensive way to cut Armor, unlike a Weapon with Corrosive that can remove 100% of Armor in a couple dozen shots at worst.

 

 

Miasma is an almost useless Ability, it's only 'good' for seal clubbing and a few seconds of stun to hope i don't die while reviving someone.

we're really better off throwing it out the window and replacing it with a good & useful Ability.

 

 

and Corrosive Effects strip 20% of the current Armor. removing 100% of Armor from an Enemy requires... about a dozen of them, IIRC.

Edited November 5, 2014 by taiiat

[Archwizard]

it's marginally better that way, but Miasma is a bland AoE Blast that brings almost nothing to the table. being able to get a few Corrosive Effects means that it's a really expensive way to cut Armor, unlike a Weapon with Corrosive that can remove 100% of Armor in a couple dozen shots at worst.

 

Miasma is an almost useless Ability, it's only 'good' for seal clubbing and a few seconds of stun to hope i don't die while reviving someone.

we're really better off throwing it out the window and replacing it with a good & useful Ability.

 

and Corrosive Effects strip 20% of the current Armor. removing 100% of Armor from an Enemy requires... about a dozen of them, IIRC.

 

Huh, I thought armor reduction was additive, what with all the hype about stacking Nekros with Corrosive Projection. Must've changed it, although the wiki says it's 25%.

 

To be fair, with the ability to status-stack with from the DoT, using a max-ranked, unmodded Miasma would give you 5 ticks of damage for 76.3% maximum armor reduction. Maximized duration would give you 11 ticks of damage for 95.8% maximum armor reduction, with enemies being stunned until it finishes damaging and stacking on them.

Even if it were only 20% reduction for Corrosive as you say, that's still 67.2% reduction unmodded, and 91.4% maximized.

Terrify's 20% armor reduction at max rank, and 56.8% armor reduction with maximum Power Strength. Miasma would be pretty darn substantial by comparison.

You also bring up a weapon, but should consider that Miasma does a tick per second. Unless you're using a very specific loadout, you might have a hard time keeping up with that. (As it should be - abilities should always supplement whatever your weapons are bringing.)

 

Standard blast attack or no, Miasma can still have utility. And it's already more useful than Crush.

[taiiat]

Standard blast attack or no, Miasma can still have utility. And it's already more useful than Crush.

oh, yeah, it's 25%. it's of current, which is far more important.

 

but there's really not much point when Miasma doesn't do much of anything useful. because it's an AoE Blast. 

 

AoE Blasts are the least useful type of Ability Warframe has to offer.

Corrosive Effects would only marginally help. only really useful on Heavy Grineer or Bosses, otherwise it doesn't matter. but you can still strip the Armor faster with a Weapon. doesn't even need a specific Loadout for it. a Weapon with not poop Status shooting at the Enemy will get Corrosive Effects consistently.

 

 

and since the Corrosive Effect is of current, the first Corrosive Effect makes a really awesome difference, and then all the ones after are meh until the Enemy has only a few percent of original left or zero.

 

we can pretend it's useful, but honestly, if you're going high enough Level that Enemy Armor will be a serious problem, we all know we're going to be using 4x Corrosive Projection anyways. having Corrosive Effects from Miasma won't change that. you're still going to be using 4x Corrosive Projection.

[Archwizard]

Corrosive Effects would only marginally help. only really useful on Heavy Grineer or Bosses, otherwise it doesn't matter. but you can still strip the Armor faster with a Weapon. doesn't even need a specific Loadout for it. a Weapon with not poop Status shooting at the Enemy will get Corrosive Effects consistently.

 

Saryn has Viral and Toxic procs as well. Toxic procs can bypass shields and Viral procs can reduce maximum health, but even with both you'll have a hard time with armor. Between the three, Saryn's true endgame potential is in her debuff versatility against all three factions. 

Yes, you can bring weapons that will stack Corrosive procs or you can bring Corrosive Projection, but the idea is that this provides a potential alternative so you or your allies can swap those out for something else (like Energy Siphon, or a damage aura, or non-status weapons, or status weapons with... literally any other element). At worst you can bring other Corrosive weapons and double-up on stacking material.

Already gave you the math on it; just because it does less every time doesn't mean it can't add up. Even with as little as 5 ticks, it certainly does.

Plus, while it may not even reduce high amounts of armor to zero in one blast, 0-armor enemies no longer take increased damage multipliers from Puncture, Radiation or Corrosive either. There's a lot of group composition factors one can play with.

 

Several abilities are blatant AoE blasts (1 in 3 ultimates, actually), not just Miasma; it's a staple of RPG techniques, like splash attacks and cone effects, and in itself isn't a bad thing. The point of this thread is to make sure that, in spite or because of that, they are still potent at all levels.

I know you want to make Miasma a growing cloud like its name, but not every ability has to be an environmental effect to make a difference (didn't really make a lick of difference for Fire Blast, or Hallowed Ground at first...).

As long as you are rewarded for using all of your skills in-tandem, and as long as it's a practical combination in the heat of the moment, how it manifests doesn't particularly matter.

Miasma needs utility, Saryn needs to not have builds for one ability weaken the rest, and giving it armor-stripping ability would cover both.

[Noble_Cactus]

The AoE nuke part of Miasma is a big reason why I don't play Saryn that much. You don't have to take line of sight into account, either, so it's a rather brainless skill to use. She's just not all that interesting to use in a mission, which is unfortunate because I like her design.

 

I've brought this up before, but what if Miasma was turned into an actual acid cloud? Either it could be deployed where Saryn is standing, or it would follow her around. The cloud would grow as it stays out, and enemies that enter the cloud are afflicted with a Corrosive DoT that has a high chance to stun and proc Corrosive with each tick. Enemies could leave the cloud, but the DoT and chance to stun/debuff would linger for a few ticks. Saryn and any allies who stand in the cloud receive a health bonus or a HoT, befitting Saryn's heavy caster archetype. EDIT: Archwizard posted while I was typing this.

 

Mechaknight and I talked about it a bit in another Saryn thread. It's not perfect by any means, and I don't know if Saryn would even be able to cast more than one cloud (maybe two max depending on how big they are). But the intent is to give her a more tactical, interesting, and useful skill for the whole team.

 

-

 

This might have been Mechaknight's suggestion, but I remember an idea that changed Venom to a small spore that Saryn casted. It would float in the direction Saryn is aiming. Upon impact with an enemy or after a set duration, the spore would burst and afflict enemies caught in the blast with the current spore growths. If Saryn or another teammate shoots the spore mid-flight, it has a high (or 100%) chance to inflict Viral on enemies caught in the blast. Venom otherwise works as normal.

Edited November 7, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[GreyEnneract]

The AoE nuke part of Miasma is a big reason why I don't play Saryn that much. You don't have to take line of sight into account, either, so it's a rather brainless skill to use. She's just not all that interesting to use in a mission, which is unfortunate because I like her design.

 

I've brought this up before, but what if Miasma was turned into an actual acid cloud? Either it could be deployed where Saryn is standing, or it would follow her around. The cloud would grow as it stays out, and enemies that enter the cloud are afflicted with a Corrosive DoT that has a high chance to stun and proc Corrosive with each tick. Enemies could leave the cloud, but the DoT and chance to stun/debuff would linger for a few ticks. Saryn and any allies who stand in the cloud receive a health bonus or a HoT, befitting Saryn's heavy caster archetype. EDIT: Archwizard posted while I was typing this.

 

Mechaknight and I talked about it a bit in another Saryn thread. It's not perfect by any means, and I don't know if Saryn would even be able to cast more than one cloud (maybe two max depending on how big they are). But the intent is to give her a more tactical, interesting, and useful skill for the whole team.

 

-

 

This might have been Mechaknight's suggestion, but I remember an idea that changed Venom to a small spore that Saryn casted. It would float in the direction Saryn is aiming. Upon impact with an enemy or after a set duration, the spore would burst and afflict enemies caught in the blast with the current spore growths. If Saryn or another teammate shoots the spore mid-flight, it has a high (or 100%) chance to inflict Viral on enemies caught in the blast. Venom otherwise works as normal.

Miasma should be a lingering cloud.

Either that or change the name.

[taiiat]

Saryn has Viral and Toxic procs as well.

yes, and those are great! they're useful.

 

Miasma is a big problem.

though honestly i don't think Contagion is useful at all. there's generic Damage Boost Abilities that add a LOT more Damage than Contagion does. and Contagion is only Melee, and only Saryns' Melee. and it's only a Toxin Boost, not all Damage in general.

so then, why have Contagion? i could maybe perhaps see it being + Toxin, Viral, Gas, and Corrosive... having all of the Toxin related Damage Types being added to your Weapons, and that could be useful i suppose.

 

and obviously it can't be a selfish Ability, because that makes it not useful.

[Noble_Cactus]

yes, and those are great! they're useful.

 

Miasma is a big problem.

though honestly i don't think Contagion is useful at all. there's generic Damage Boost Abilities that add a LOT more Damage than Contagion does. and Contagion is only Melee, and only Saryns' Melee. and it's only a Toxin Boost, not all Damage in general.

so then, why have Contagion? i could maybe perhaps see it being + Toxin, Viral, Gas, and Corrosive... having all of the Toxin related Damage Types being added to your Weapons, and that could be useful i suppose.

 

and obviously it can't be a selfish Ability, because that makes it not useful.

 

The idea of Contagion giving Saryn a Toxic Eximus aura just came to mind... but I quickly dismissed it. Contagion givin Saryn and her allies temporary Toxic auras is a cool idea, but I'm not sure how interesting of an ability it would actually be, since it would just be an extra layer of damage on top of everything else.

 

Still, I invite everyone in this thread to turn that idea into something better.

 

-

 

Ah, I forgot to mention my small buff to Molt. What if the amount of damage Molt absorbed before it ended affected the damage of the Toxin explosion? Or if the damage absorbed had some other function?

Edited November 7, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[Azamagon]

About Miasma and Saryn - You yourself said that Saryn is a kind of mid-range caster. But how do you get to use your abilities potently at midrange if you are frail (in case the Allure revamp doesn't happen) and/or can't gather them together?

 

Thus: Miasma could still have the corrosive blastwave, but if it ALSO had a lingering (lowlethality) poison cloud, which blocked the line of sight for enemies, well then now we are talking! Miasma then indirectly pulls enemies in closer. Molt makes them wanna go after it (in the midst of a Miasma cloud, for example). Allure and Venom gives nice and deadly aoe to all the nearby enemies. etc etc. It synergizes beautifully, if I may say so myself :)

[Azamagon]

Still, I invite everyone in this thread to turn that idea into something better.

How about this:

 

Contagion Venom Shroud (name the first ability into Contagion instead)

Saryn coats herself and her melee weapon(s) with mysterious poisons, giving her both defense and offense in one ability. This is how:

* Melee gets a toxic boost, like now, but which also leeches health over to her based on the toxic damage dealt.

* The poison "coat" on herself causes attacks against her to briefly paralyze the attacker (once per Venom Shroud cast), which not only stops the enemy but also NEGATES the damage of that attack!

That makes it into a more interesting and unique tanking ability. It also fits with the nature/snake/gorgon theme (due to petrification / paralysis).

[taiiat]

(once per Venom Shroud cast)

since it's currently a 75E Ability - and presumably would be still - why not, 3 Paralyzes, affected by Power Strength?

 

because i wouldn't cast a 75E Ability that stunned one Enemy and a minor amount of Health Steal. and with 75% Efficiency i'd still be wary of casting it.

 

because it's still a selfish Ability that helps very little if at all in a Co-Op game.

 

 

in order for the Slot 3 Power to get used on Saryn - it needs to be an Ability that helps Multiplayer. Venom, Molt, and Miasma all can technically help the Multiplayer picture. but Contagion does not. requirement #1 for it should be that it is a Co-Op Ability.

 

(on another note, a couple days ago, i was talking to someone about Saryns' Abilities, and ANOTHER person got the Abilities understandably backwards! i was talking about Contagion and how it doesn't bring much of anything to the table because it's a selfish Ability, and he thought i was talking about Venom.

so yo, can we get the names switched? because they literally make more sense the other way around).

[Azamagon]

since it's currently a 75E Ability - and presumably would be still - why not, 3 Paralyzes, affected by Power Strength?

 

because i wouldn't cast a 75E Ability that stunned one Enemy and a minor amount of Health Steal. and with 75% Efficiency i'd still be wary of casting it.

 

because it's still a selfish Ability that helps very little if at all in a Co-Op game.

 

 

in order for the Slot 3 Power to get used on Saryn - it needs to be an Ability that helps Multiplayer. Venom, Molt, and Miasma all can technically help the Multiplayer picture. but Contagion does not. requirement #1 for it should be that it is a Co-Op Ability.

 

(on another note, a couple days ago, i was talking to someone about Saryns' Abilities, and ANOTHER person got the Abilities understandably backwards! i was talking about Contagion and how it doesn't bring much of anything to the table because it's a selfish Ability, and he thought i was talking about Venom.

so yo, can we get the names switched? because they literally make more sense the other way around).

Hey, yeah, 3 paralyzes and affected by Power Strength sounds good! :)

(Little note: It's the paralysis shield + life steal + TOXIC melee bonus). I think it's fine to have an ability per Warframe that is a bit more selfish in nature. After all, consider that it helps Saryn to tank for the team, thus indirectly being unselfish as well. It also synergizes with Archwizard's Molt which copies her buffs, further strengthening its tankability, and thus further also helps the team.

[Archwizard]

Ah, I forgot to mention my small buff to Molt. What if the amount of damage Molt absorbed before it ended affected the damage of the Toxin explosion? Or if the damage absorbed had some other function?

Suggested changes:

- Venom spores are more responsive to area-effect attacks, each melee attack will also pop at least one spore, and any unpopped spores on a slain enemy will automatically detonate (without spreading the effect) against nearby foes.

- Molt transfers all buffs, debuffs and statuses from the casting Saryn to the decoy upon summoning. When the Molt fades or is destroyed, explosion damage is increased by total damage it received.

- Contagion replaced with “Allure”: Grants damage mitigation to the caster, with a small Gas damage aura surrounding Saryn capable of popping Venom spores.

- Miasma has a 100% status chance per tick. Power Duration adds additional ticks with stagger; reducing Power Duration no longer increases damage dealt.

 

Beat ya to it.

 

Wanted to increase the synergy with Allure, and emphasize increasing Power Duration. Add some reward to that risk.

Edited November 7, 2014 by Archwizard

[Gizogin]

since it's currently a 75E Ability - and presumably would be still - why not, 3 Paralyzes, affected by Power Strength?

 

 

I might be mistaken, but I believe (and the wiki suggests) that Contagion costs 50E, not 75.  It is still far too expensive and useless, however.

[taiiat]

I might be mistaken, but I believe (and the wiki suggests) that Contagion costs 50E, not 75.  It is still far too expensive and useless, however.

so it is!

shows you how often i have a reason to cast it.

 

i feel the same story applies for 50E though. an Ability that doesn't really help the team and also doesn't really do all that much to begin with, has a hard time convincing me to cast it.

[Gizogin]

so it is!

shows you how often i have a reason to cast it.

 

i feel the same story applies for 50E though. an Ability that doesn't really help the team and also doesn't really do all that much to begin with, has a hard time convincing me to cast it.

 

You'll find no disagreement here.  After all, Speed Boost costs 50 and boosts everyone's speed, and Warcry, Rift Walk, and Roar (75E) each offer a comparable or better damage boost (indirectly through attack speed for Warcry) to every teammate.  

 

Ultimately, Contagion could cost 10E and I would still have to consciously remind myself to use it.  There's little visual indication that it's working, and even less indication that it actually helps.  It would probably be better to scrap it entirely and replace it with something new.

[Noble_Cactus]

Beat ya to it.

 

Wanted to increase the synergy with Allure, and emphasize increasing Power Duration. Add some reward to that risk.

 

Eek :x I skimmed over it then when I read the OP.

 

In any case, I support completely scrapping Contagion as well (and moving the name to Venom).

[Archwizard]

in order for the Slot 3 Power to get used on Saryn - it needs to be an Ability that helps Multiplayer. Venom, Molt, and Miasma all can technically help the Multiplayer picture. but Contagion does not. requirement #1 for it should be that it is a Co-Op Ability.

 

Not necessarily true - you underestimate the team value of personal survival tools. Consider that even when the output of Rift Walk and Hysteria is laughable, the fact that you have a teammate who is invulnerable is amazing for group survivability, since they can draw fire or revive people without any interruption. Same argument for the utility of mobility tools, if you have the CC to stay alive long enough to complete a revive.

That said, Venom Shroud sounds pretty weak to me; it only stops one attack per enemy, which doesn't help much when you're facing off against legions of enemies with automatic/burst-fire weapons. Plus you're only protected while you're attacking (as most of the survivability comes from the lifesteal), which only helps if you're running head-first into an enemy, severely limiting the utility aspects of it. Furthermore, it wouldn't really synergize well with Molt - the Molt can't melee, and therefore can't use most of the ability's effects.

 

Eek :x I skimmed over it then when I read the OP.

 

In any case, I support completely scrapping Contagion as well (and moving the name to Venom).

 

The name Venom is okay-ish if you're not worrying about mixing it up with Contagion. Yes, the spores are diseased and self-spreading and Contagion makes more sense in terms of what Venom has done since Saryn's last revamp, but Venom is also the most simple and basic term for Saryn's abilities.

Compare: Volt's first skill is Shock. Not Chain Lightning, not Electrocute, just Shock. Short, simple, immediately brings the frame element to mind, summarizes the skillset, gets the point across. Same with Freeze, same with Smite, same with Venom.