Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[taiiat]

That, and negative duration will no longer be the meta given the new legendary mods. If my predicted pattern is correct, they'll generally be about 82% better than the standard option for being a rank 10 legendary mod that I assume will be the "end game" of mods. Corrupted mods will still have their place in the game for allowing one to stack a large bonus not possible in any other mod for the cost of attribute loss, and they will also be able of being stacked as usual. However, if Saryn's Miasma is not fixed to work as intended, she will be left behind as all warframes are systematically buffed by the new resources available. I for one am glad that this balanced option is becoming available to us as they are currently being implemented.

while ultimately i'd greatly prefer tossing the Ability entirely and making a new 'Creeping Death' Ability to match the name of the Ability and theme of the Warframe, i'm willing to compromise for things that will work okay.

 

ex:

Miasma absolutely needs to not gain extra Damage from negative Duration. as it stands, it's hard to tell if that actually was fixed or not, because of the ridiculous numbers Miasma makes that myself and my usual suspects spent hours with calculators trying to figure out what the hell was going on, and ended up having to give up. some of the Damage Numbers make sense, and then sometimes it's like a Sniper Rifle.

and again, no need for Headshots.

 

so i feel the best compromise is to keep Miasma as it is currently but add on to it.

Miasma casts an AoE Blast that hits all Enemies in Radius, dealing high Damage to them. every Tick that this is active on an Enemy, they are stunned. yes, increasing Duration lengthens Stun. increase the base Ticks / seconds on Miasma to 5-6 so that Miasma can have some useful up front CC.

Damage can stay all Corrosive i guess, idunno. should have a decent Status Chance on these Damage Ticks. 35-50%.

 

all affected Enemies by the AoE Blast of Miasma make a couple checks.

 

if an Enemy is killed by Miasma, it's death location creates a cloud of gas + spores + other cool looking nasty stuff. these clouds slow Enemies by 50%, and deal moderate DoT. while the original cast of Miasma deals high Damage to Enemies, these clouds would be mediocre Damage in comparison. preferably Toxin, Gas, Viral, and Corrosive Damage, to fit the theme. something like 70% Corrosive, 15% Viral, 10% Toxin, and 5% Gas sounds interesting. the clouds deal that spread of Damage once per second, with a under average Status Chance (like ~30%).

these clouds have a separate single Chance upon an Enemy entering it for a Status Effect. either Toxin or Gas, i can't decide. probably something like a 20-30% Chance. it tries once, if it fails, oh well.

if several Enemies die in a spot, yes, the Clouds stack on Enemies inside them.

 

if an Enemy survives Miasma, they are given a 100% Gas Effect. does not remove any Status from the original Damage. they are slowed for the Duration of the Gas Effect. the Gas Effect has a low Status Chance. something like 15%. Gas Damage deals AoE Toxin, so if Status Happens, Toxin Effect.

if necessary, and it could be i suppose to get this to work, these Gas Effects will be #.#x larger than Gas Effects normally are, to be able to hit more Enemies with the AoE from the Gas Effect. or hell, could be modified by Power Range.

 

 

Power Strength affects the original Damage, the Damage of the Clouds, and the Damage of the Gas Effects for surviving Enemies.

Power Range affects the Range of the original Cast, the Range of the Clouds, and probably the Range of Gas Effects for surviving Enemies.

Power Duration affects the Ticks of Miasma (and also therefore the length of the stun), the Duration of the Clouds, and possibly the Duration of the Gas Effects for surviving Enemies.

Power Efficiency... well, duh.

 

ultimately, for performance and balance reasons, if Saryn recasts Miasma before these Clouds have ended, dispel them. Enemies with Status Effects / DoT on them though, let it continue until it would end normally.

 

----------

 

oh, also, thanks for explaining why Contagion is so garbage. much better than i've ever explained it. expect quote steals whenever i need to explain why Contagion is bluh.

Edited December 18, 2014 by taiiat

[Avicou]

I think under Victories you should add Mesa and (HEAR ME OUT) Limbo.

 

Their abilities are cohesive and work well together. Limbo obviously needs some (read: all the) tweaking but it was a really good idea.

[LukeAura]

I think under Victories you should add Mesa and (HEAR ME OUT) Limbo.

 

Their abilities are cohesive and work well together. Limbo obviously needs some (read: all the) tweaking but it was a really good idea.

I'm not sure what Mesa has qualifies as Cohesion more than effects that don't completely out do or compete with the others. Short range CC(If we forget about the random nature), long range damage reduction. They compliment each other, but don't form a synergistic relation, the sum of them isn't greater than their two effects. They don't combine to create a somewhat unique output like what Limbo theoretically does. And I think Limbo's issues are a little too large to make him a victory, a good first step perhaps, or a spiritual victory that they're willing to attempt these ideas more than they've actually succeeded at fulfilling them.  

 

[Archwizard]

I think under Victories you should add Mesa and (HEAR ME OUT) Limbo.

 

Their abilities are cohesive and work well together. Limbo obviously needs some (read: all the) tweaking but it was a really good idea.

 

To add to LukeAura's response, the "Victories" section is more for frames who received reworks directly affected by community suggestions (more specifically, those in this thread). Whether or not you see Limbo and Mesa as completed frames, they wouldn't be in that section because the community agrees far more could be done with them.

[Elydir]

So I was running some outbreaks for Alad V coordinates and it got me thinking, wouldnt it be cool if Nerkos had the flies? He does nanite stuff, they do nanite stuff, they can do armor, he's supposed to do armor...?

[LukeAura]

So I'm reading the 2014 in review and see Mesa labelled as 'aggressive gunplay'. And yet, has nothing to support this beyond a few mild benefits to guns, and Ballistic Battery which while limittedly powerful doesn't really have enough of an effect over all to really feel like she's a gunplay expert any more than one can say any other frame with a damage buff and/or some form of crowd control isn't a gunplay expert.  
And peacemaker isn't actually Gunplay, it's... watching a fireworks show.

I don't know if one can make peacemaker a mode more like Hysteria, with more player control, special bonuses, and movement, or just scrap it for something that gives larger benefits to the player's equipped guns or something else, but I'm not sure Mesa will ever live up to the term 'gunslinger' without some kind of change to Peacemaker, there doesn't seem to be quite enough room in the kit otherwise.

[RealPandemonium]

So I'm reading the 2014 in review and see Mesa labelled as 'aggressive gunplay'. And yet, has nothing to support this

welcome to every frame description ever

[XToxinator]

Unfortunately, I feel they're almost all too much. You took each ability and multiplied its effects to an overpoweringly high degree, but focused on abilities without issues (like Decoy) or ignored the real issues some of these skills have (like most of your Frost rework).

Oh ok then. Frost do needs a lot of buff

 

 

Could you be more specific? I'm not sure what conflicting ideas you mean.

 

 

Ah, I see you went back to Volkovyi's original Tornado design with it.

 

I'd be all for it, if the current implementation of Zephyr didn't make everything about Tornado (from the flight to the bullet redirection) totally redundant. 

On top of that, I'm fairly certain it would make the ability incredibly OP. The only skills that orbit a moving Warframe for a duration deal damage to one target at a time; the only toggled skills that protect the Warframe (ie ragdolling enemies in an orbit around the user) also make the user immobile. There's no tradeoff.

[Archwizard]

So I was running some outbreaks for Alad V coordinates and it got me thinking, wouldnt it be cool if Nerkos had the flies? He does nanite stuff, they do nanite stuff, they can do armor, he's supposed to do armor...?

 

I thought about this for a little while before I wrote up the change to Soul Punch in the OP; it would fit perfectly to have Nekros apply a swarm of flies to his minions that increased their armor and spread like a disease from target to target. Eventually I decided that it would probably make the ability way too powerful to have a jumping armor buff/debuff, especially since it would be easier to spread than Venom.

 

Plus if we want to see Desecrate replaced, we probably have to see how much of Soul Punch can be recovered so they don't have to scrap two things.

 

I don't know if one can make peacemaker a mode more like Hysteria, with more player control, special bonuses, and movement, or just scrap it for something that gives larger benefits to the player's equipped guns or something else, but I'm not sure Mesa will ever live up to the term 'gunslinger' without some kind of change to Peacemaker, there doesn't seem to be quite enough room in the kit otherwise.

 

It possibly could be done? Thing is, there was a glitch that allowed you to move around while Peacemaker was active, and most people to comment on it said it just made her ultimate very boring - especially since it automatically targets and hones in on enemies.

 

welcome to every frame description ever

 

"Volt is a potent alternative to gunplay!" Electric Shield and enemy armor would beg to differ.

"Ember has surprising crowd control capabilities!" Not without her augment she doesn't.

"Mag's ultimate ability can turn the tide of battle!" You mean when it had a long animation and did flat, armor-acknowledging damage and a short knockdown, or after it lost the knockdown and began animation-locking Mag longer than affected foes?

"Excalibur is well-suited for every playstyle!" No damage resistance or healing, no ranged attacks, no damage buffs, limited stealth at best... Seems just suited to the occasional CC and a disproportionate value on mobility skills.

"Loki is for advanced players!" Most true description they've ever released, still doesn't take any effort to just stay in Invisibility.

Edited December 23, 2014 by Archwizard

[taiiat]

It possibly could be done? Thing is, there was a glitch that allowed you to move around while Peacemaker was active, and most people to comment on it said it just made her ultimate very boring - especially since it automatically targets and hones in on enemies.

unless while 'broken' it still was auto Homing, having the guns actually in your hands and you deciding what and when to shoot at, can only be an improvement.

 

if people literally prefer AFK'ing while holding a button down and calling that 'more fun' than actually playing the game....

>.>

*facedesk*

[LukeAura]

It possibly could be done? Thing is, there was a glitch that allowed you to move around while Peacemaker was active, and most people to comment on it said it just made her ultimate very boring - especially since it automatically targets and hones in on enemies.

I am talking a little more than walking while holding down left click. 

 

[Noble_Cactus]

welcome to every frame description ever

 

I have a feeling all of those frame descriptions are what the design team first writes down when they want to make a new frame. "A potent alternative to gunplay" or "aggressive gunplay" is their design ethic or guide when it comes to making that new frame.

 

Problem is, the frame ends up morphing into something else that doesn't really fit that ideal vision, and since that's the only description they have laying around for that frame, it gets tacked onto it upon release.

[Joey9Baka]

Am I wrong for liking Limbo as is?

My only complaints with him so far are

-Cataclysm while being a great defensive ability and providing a nice safe haven energy zone stops my allies from getting loot

-Rift Surge only affects me

 

Other then that my friend who plays volt and nova and I love the feeling of walking around in the rift blasting things and enjoying infinite energy and invunerability.

I think rift surge would make more sense as a team buff for dmg against things in the rift for all allies and that Cataclysm should just have either the loot penalty removed or let me end it early without having to find a cliff to jump off. (but just removing the loot penalty would be smarter to stop the possible trolling with limbo intentional or otherwise)

[Zynro]

There is a very easy way to fix Limbo if he needs fixing, in my opinion. Let us detonate our 4 early, like our 2. Easy, simple, necessary. 

[RealPandemonium]

I have a feeling all of those frame descriptions are what the design team first writes down when they want to make a new frame. "A potent alternative to gunplay" or "aggressive gunplay" is their design ethic or guide when it comes to making that new frame.

 

Problem is, the frame ends up morphing into something else that doesn't really fit that ideal vision, and since that's the only description they have laying around for that frame, it gets tacked onto it upon release.

Much of the flavor text in this game is like this, and has been since before a year ago when I started playing.  Just have to take it with a grain of salt.

[taiiat]

Just have to take it with a grain of salt.

i don't think one grain is enough for those descriptions.

 

 

:|

[Coatduck]

i don't think one grain is enough for those descriptions.

 

 

:|

[Archwizard]

Am I wrong for liking Limbo as is?

My only complaints with him so far are

-Cataclysm while being a great defensive ability and providing a nice safe haven energy zone stops my allies from getting loot

-Rift Surge only affects me

Let us detonate our 4 early, like our 2. Easy, simple, necessary. 

 

Not wrong at all; you'll note that what's in the OP is entirely quality-of-life fixes, including those the two of you mentioned. The biggest substantial difference outside of your statements is Rift Walk including a way to transition enemies into the rift on-the-fly.

[geninrising]

Bumping this post as the single greatest source of ideas that should be implemented!

[MotherofHermes]

Dear Archwizard. 

 

I noticed in your post concerning Ember that fireblast should "push enemies back." However, there is one fact that remains evidant even with this change: Ember is turned to swiss cheese by bullets/projectiles/rockets/etc. 

 

Thereare not many frames that don't have the ability to deal with enemy projectiles in some way shape or form. 

 

Even Nova has a hard slow from 4 and now with augments has a bullet sponge with 2. As such, perhaps fireblast's ring should soak bullets like a frost snowglobe or something. (don't take that as my only idea, just an idea to get the ball rolling). 

 

Point being. Most frames have a way to make the bullets stop. ember does not and alongside that has a slow move speed/bad defenses. What are your suggestions? 

[Archwizard]

Dear Archwizard. 

 

I noticed in your post concerning Ember that fireblast should "push enemies back." However, there is one fact that remains evidant even with this change: Ember is turned to swiss cheese by bullets/projectiles/rockets/etc. 

 

Thereare not many frames that don't have the ability to deal with enemy projectiles in some way shape or form. 

 

Even Nova has a hard slow from 4 and now with augments has a bullet sponge with 2. As such, perhaps fireblast's ring should soak bullets like a frost snowglobe or something. (don't take that as my only idea, just an idea to get the ball rolling). 

 

Point being. Most frames have a way to make the bullets stop. ember does not and alongside that has a slow move speed/bad defenses. What are your suggestions? 

 

I never interpretted it as all frames having a way to avoid expressly ranged foes, just that all have a way to CC or avoid some substantial amount of damage. Admittedly, Ember's weakness against other ranged foes did not slip my mind, but my main concern was giving her a way to deal with melee foes, since Infested and unarmored Grineer have had a history as her main prey (and still are the most vulnerable to her damage type), only ruined by Damage 2.0.

 

In all seriousness though, have you seen how far the Eximus knockback reaches? We're not talking about a radial Sonic Boom one-and-done, we're talking an approaching wall of devastation that even Tenno have failed to outrun that can lock down all of the caster's foes for crucial moments. If it used the Molecular Prime formula for spreading, it would very much be able to deal with ranged foes as well as melee foes.

 

Now, if it were still a major issue, I had previously suggested emphasizing Fire Blast as Ember's inversion of Snow Globe, with more focus put on charging enemies over ballistic attacks but some minor effect to deal with either.

If you've so much as been near a campfire, you know you have to deal with smoke and that slight mirage that shimmers around the flames; if you're not blinded and choking, your vision is at least distorted. If you were to shoot through that, I would say that could create an accuracy reduction effect.

Of course, this lends the issue of Fire Blast being overloaded to compensate for her weaknesses (I know, she's due for 'em) as both her main CC and main ranged defense, on top of (with enemies sitting in the flames the whole time) being a method to apply intense amounts of damage-over-time. It would combine Bastille with Turbulence and still have damage to spare.

 

Alternately, the devs could alter enemy AI to make ranged foes try to close the gap if enemies are hidden behind the flames, but it would become sort of a jarring transition from "But what if it huuuurrrrrrts?" to complete "I'm not afraid of OH THAT'S HOT".

 

The third option is to completely ignore Fire Blast for the solution here, and blend it into another effect without utility... which, by the end of the rework, would just be her ultimate. I don't know about you, but I'd really rather not encourage players to shoot for 100% uptime on World on Fire.

 

Honestly though, I'd just wait to see what would happen with the listed changes as they are, to see if it would be an acceptable weakness (in terms of competitive balance, I mean - like how rogues are fast but squishy or wizards are immobile but high in utility and output). Would we really worry about ranged damage if Ember had that much stunlock potential?

[AlphaHorseman]

I hate that the augments are being used as band-aids, they shouldn't be that. They should ADD a dynamic to a power, a different one, something that adds an interesting mechanic to an already good power. But no, many of these augments are simply patch ups to powers that needed reworking, than new toys that we would see to be interesting and useful, but not necessarily needed.

[Archwizard]

I hate that the augments are being used as band-aids, they shouldn't be that. They should ADD a dynamic to a power, a different one, something that adds an interesting mechanic to an already good power. But no, many of these augments are simply patch ups to powers that needed reworking, than new toys that we would see to be interesting and useful, but not necessarily needed.

 

I admit that there are some augments where it's easy to make broad and sweeping statements about how important they are, but if you look objectively, its actually relatively few augments that are an issue.

 

Augments that affect skills with little to no utility:

Divebomb Vortex

Fire Fright

Fireball Frenzy

Furious Javelin

Ice Wave Impedance

Ironclad Charge

Neutron Star

Pacifying Bolts

Prolonged Paralysis

Seeking Shuriken

Soul Survivor

Surging Dash

 

While you could make exceptions as to what quantifies 'utility' in the list above (like Dive Bomb's radial knockdown) that's still only 12 out of 44 augments that could be seen as bandaids. Even then, Pool of Life and Shocking Speed are neither bandaids nor even that good.

 

That said, several of these have been addressed in the OP, which just leaves behind Ironclad Charge, Prolonged Paralysis, Seeking Shuriken and Surging Dash.

For Surging Dash, I recommend replacing the augment. For the others, I'm open to suggestions for Rhino Charge, Paralysis and Shuriken.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Archwizard

[Azamagon]

 

I admit that there are some augments where it's easy to make broad and sweeping statements about how important they are, but if you look objectively, its actually relatively few augments that are an issue.

 

Augments that affect skills with little to no utility:

Divebomb Vortex

Fire Fright

Fireball Frenzy

Furious Javelin

Ice Wave Impedance

Ironclad Charge

Neutron Star

Pacifying Bolts

Prolonged Paralysis

Seeking Shuriken

Soul Survivor

Surging Dash

 

While you could make exceptions as to what quantifies 'utility' in the list above (like Dive Bomb's radial knockdown) that's still only 12 out of 44 augments that could be seen as bandaids. Even then, Pool of Life and Shocking Speed are neither bandaids nor even that good.

 

That said, several of these have been addressed in the OP, which just leaves behind Ironclad Charge, Prolonged Paralysis, Seeking Shuriken and Surging Dash.

For Surging Dash, I recommend replacing the augment. For the others, I'm open to suggestions for Rhino Charge, Paralysis and Shuriken.

 

Ironclad Charge would be fine, imo, if Iron Skin had less health, but was affected by Armor to compensate. Instant synergy.

 

Seeking Shuriken needs to have a bonus on non-armored targets too (same percentage, 70%, as pure damageboost on enemies with no base armor?). Regular Shuriken should at the very least stagger its opponents too.

 

Regular Paralysis could have the longer stun at base, that's for certain. Rename its augment to Rage Burst, and make it pull in enemies like now and cause it to use up ALL shields at once, for increased damage but lessened survivability. I dunno, Paralysis is a boring skill anyway, hard to get inspired to find something cool for it.

[Archwizard]

Ironclad Charge would be fine, imo, if Iron Skin had less health, but was affected by Armor to compensate. Instant synergy.

 

Suddenly I'm inspired to say Iron Skin should gain additional armor proportional to the amount of health it lost.

 

... That'd make it last.