Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[Azamagon]

Archwizard, that idea of making the active (the "release") of Mend leaving a huge sphere for a while which autoheals allies when you are inside it... that is just brilliant!

I STILL feel Mend should also have a passive on it though. That could (still) be a minor heal-over-time, which could build up overshields (in contrast to the released part), so it helps and stacks with the released part further.

On 2016-04-02 at 0:33 PM, ChronoEclipse said:

-snip-

I don't think you need to change Nezha so drastically.

#1 and #2 changes sound good from both of you.
I'd also like if his #1 was a "legfree" cast, as in, you can still move while casting it, but it still interrupts your shooting, reloading and such. Slidecasting it works, but shouldn't be a necessity imo.

#3 could be repairable by his #2 (from excess healing, that is), but never repairable up to more than what its highest health was after its absorbtion. Alternatively, it could be endable (with a radial (not spherical) slashwave? Or a healing wave?), but eh, I prefer giving it better interaction with his other abilities.

#4 (Divine Spears) could just get 2 QoL changes:
1) The uncasting animation is not done by Nezha directly anymore, but rather by a fiery Nezha-image at the same location as Nezha (meaning: No more interruption of your actions when it ends / is uncast)
2) Any attack done directly onto a spear has its damage redirected to the impaled target in question instead. This also means that if you leave a fire trail beneath an impaled target, and since the target's spear is touching the ground, it will get hurt by the trail on the ground as well.

An added synergy for #4 and #1 could be that his Divine Spears will also impale enemies that are on his Firewalker path, no matter how far they might be from Nezha. *shrugs*

 

As for some more changes to a bunch of other Warframes:

 

 

Ash
* On top of Archwizard's notes, Shuriken could also add to and benefit from the melee combo counter. After all, Ash seems to be all about the "melee from a distance"-ish kind of niche anyway (thinking about Teleport and Bladestorm here)
* If Teleport is to become a non-targetted teleport (as per Arch's suggestion), I'd suggest to also make it cause the finisherstun on all enemies in a small AoE around the landing point, so having pinpoint aim is not needed for allowing finishers (which would be insanely annoying to pull of with a freetargetted Teleport...).

Atlas
* The more petrified enemies get, they also suffer more damage taken from all sources (up to maybe +60% or so when fully Petrified, affected by Power Strength?). Also, perhaps, Petrify could be more like a conical "flash stare" rather than a continuous conebeam, with enemies struck by the gaze gradually turning into stone.
* Rumblers' attacks should deal their damage in a wide AoE, and NOT stop when swinging. Their rockthrows ought to impact in an AoE, and cause knockdown or at least stagger affected targets too.
* In addition to Archwizard's changes to Landslide and Tectonics, holdcasting Tectonics could still cause the latest summoned wall to roll (similar to how it functions now)
* Titanic Rumbler needs further buffing than Arch's suggestion: FIRST rank could be +100% damage and health, with rank increasing it further than that (say 100/120/140/160% per rank) and all of its attacks should be much, MUCH bigger to compensate for the fact that it can only attack from one spot at a time.

Banshee
* Sonic Boom, in addition to its current effects, could be aimable (rather than just a frontal cone) and also shoots a single target soundbeam where you aim the cursor, which has long range and decent finisher damage. This added soundbeam can strike Sonar weakspots, giving her the ability to Sonarsnipe enemies with just her abilities!
* Silence ought to be endable upon recasting it midduration, to alleviate her range and duration modding issues

Chroma
* Holdcasting either Spectral Scream or Elemental Ward could (at no energycost) allow you to swap your element (kinda like Ivara changing arrowtype). This could also possibly be something accessed from the gear-menu or something *shrugs* Note: Swapping element causes your to lose your current element's bonuses from Elemental Ward, and instead changes it to the new elements bonuses
* Passive: Similar to Archwizard's "wings"-suggestion, but I'd add: The wings are also enveloped in energy (of your colour choice). If the Effigy is out, you lose the PHYSICAL component of the wings, but not the energy, thus you still keep the passive even when the Effigy is summoned!

Loki
* Recasting Decoy shouldn't instantly cast a new Decoy, but rather end the previous Decoy first. Would be ultrauseful for stealthy reasons. This addition could also allow Decoy to have an effect on death/end (like a radial stagger, that'd be enough)

Mesa
* All of this:

Nekros
* Soul Punch could, on top of Arch's ideas, also get his "soul projectile" back, but in a completely new manner: The "soul" is more like a ghost that haunts nearby enemies, continously seeking out and attacking them. While the punch'd target is alive, the soul anchors itself to the punch'd target, never attacking enemies further away than the anchoring range. If the punch'd target dies, the soul no longer has the "anchoring", but rather attacks more randomly. If no enemy is within its acquisition range, it will slowly linger around in a small area. Can only summon one "soul" per enemy (recasting on the enemy refreshes the duration though). If the enemy dies while the soul is summoned, the duration of the soul's lingering time is refreshed right before the target's death. Damagetype is cold, and each attack not only deals damage, it also slow enemies HEAVILY (think, 80%), but VERY briefly (think, 0,2 seconds or so).

Nyx
* I feel that Psychic Bolts should (instead of a chance of plain Radiation-proccing) alter the damage dealt from the struck targets: If they attack Tenno and their allies, they deal much less damage, but if they attack their own allies (via Chaos or Radiation etc), or Nyx while she is absorbing, they deal massively increased damage.
* Absorb could get multiple changes: Give it a max duration (but still endable at any time), at the bonus of making damage absorbed NOT consume more energy, change damagetype to Impact (a more neutral type than Magnetic), heavily ragdoll all enemies caught in the blast, and give it some interactivity while it lasts: Psychic Bolts could be castable during Absorb so she has longrange offense if needed. Mind Control could also be castable during Absorb, and holdcasting Mind Control during Absorb lets you, toggle between ACTIVELY controlling your current MC-target or not! (Absorb ending = no more active control of the MC-target). This let's you do something actively, even while Nyx is passively sitting in her Absorb bubble.

Ivara
* Prowl now allows ALL kinds of movements without breaking it, but all her movement is also slowed down. Energydrain is quicker the faster you move.
* Artemis Bow mechanics sort of reversed: Quick shot = Horizontal spread. Charging = Merges arrows together (narrowing the width), but this merging also adds 1) more and more vertical energy to each arrow 2) more and more punchthrough and 3) an increase in their projectile velocity (full charge also loses its arcing). This means that at full charge you only shoot ONE arrow, with a hitbox sort of like a vertical Exalted Blade's wave. If a fully merged arrow kills an enemy, it will be split in half, vertically, 100% of the time.

That fully merged arrow could have an effect (less extreme though) similar to this (look at how the "larvababything" dies):

 

 

Nova
* Null Star ought to be endable or refreshable on recast. On top of staggering, as Arch suggested, I feel each star's damage should also be applied in a small AoE.

Equinox
* Pacify/Provoke could, instead of being onetime effects, cause an ally that is hurt / casts an ability to get a brief Pacify / Provoke buff on them (say, lasting 3 seconds, affected by Power Duration), granting them the respective benefits (DR or Power Str) for the entire buff duration, as well as for the triggering attack/ability ofc. Getting hurt / casting a new ability will NOT refresh this buff duration, it has to expire first (This would mainly solve the insane energydrain on Pacify). Due to lasting a bit, the energydrain per triggering could be increased a tad I guess? (Say 3 energy everytime you buff an ally/yourself?)

Saryn
* Recasting Molt shouldn't instantly cast a new Molt, but rather detonate the previous Molt at no energycost. Gives you better fine-control over its remote bomb capabilities. Molt granting Saryn some brief invisibility would also be nice.
* Miasma shouldn't destroy Molt, as I feel Miasma should instead leave a lingering cloud which blocks enemy LoS or something. Then, Molt combined with Miasma, would work as a decoy even against ranged enemies. I find that important because, unlike Loki, she can't cast Molt wherever she aims, she has to be where it is placed.
Between Molt's brief invisibility and Miasma's LoS-blocking, she could finally be considered truly ELUSIVE, as per her description.

Wukong
* Iron Jab should have WAY longer range (25 meters?), and could also temporarily increase Primal Fury's reach to its maximum reach (which also needs a generous buff, imo). When this bonus wears off, it goes back to the range it was before the bonus + any added range gained from fighting during the buff.

Also, most powerful selfbuffs should be endable upon recasting (Such as Smoke Screen, Invisibility, Shatter Shield, Turbulence). Mirage's Eclipse already functions like this.
Buffs that can affect the entire team really ought to be refreshable (Roar, Warcry, Speed etc). This is even more so to be considered considering stuff like Roar's and Warcry's augments (so you can puncture-proc or slow enemies, respectively, on newly arrived enemeis)

 

Edited April 3, 2016 by Azamagon

[Archwizard]

2 hours ago, Azamagon said:

I STILL feel Mend should also have a passive on it though. That could (still) be a minor heal-over-time, which could build up overshields (in contrast to the released part), so it helps and stacks with the released part further.

Then perhaps something like... increased shield regen?

I know it's really minor, but that's kinda the point - the effect should be very bottom-heavy.

[--Q--uaint]

8 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Ash

Yes, please

A thought for Ash’s Bladestorm:
Ash marks an area in much the same way as he does now, but not requiring an initial target. If an initial target is marked, Ash bladestorms it himself once before returning to his initial position. The base duration of the marked radius is 7/8/9/10 seconds.
1/2/3/4 shadow clones are spawned, not scaling with power strength. These clones use Bladestorm’s current attacks on anything in the marked radius, and otherwise idle somewhere in the radius doing the Eclipse Narta. If an idling clone receives damage, it immediately attacks the source regardless of range.
Ash is free to do whatever he wants during the duration, and may do Bladestorm strikes of his own for no energy cost by hitting 4 at an enemy.

I also think Smoke Screen should make a cloud that sticks around and Finisher stuns any enemy who enters. This would also make it easier to get good use out of Smoke Shadow, since anyone who wanted invisibility could just hop into the cloud at any point in the duration.
As someone else noted in another thread, it'd be cool if you could air-cast Smoke Bomb by doing something akin to an aerial melee groundslam motion with the smoke bomb.

8 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Atlas

I like these changes a lot.

8 hours ago, Azamagon said:

* Sonic Boom, in addition to its current effects, could be aimable (rather than just a frontal cone) and also shoots a single target soundbeam where you aim the cursor, which has long range and decent finisher damage. This added soundbeam can strike Sonar weakspots, giving her the ability to Sonarsnipe enemies with just her abilities!

Please no. If anything, just force Soundquake to always strike Sonar weakpoints.

Recastable Silence would be awesome, though.

8 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Holdcasting either Spectral Scream or Elemental Ward could (at no energycost) allow you to swap your element (kinda like Ivara changing arrowtype).

YEEEEEES. Chroma would then actually be pretty strong in fashion-frame since you would no longer be limited in your energy color choice. (Also, making his pelt be metallic would be super-baller)

8 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Loki

There’s something that would make Loki better? …Yes, I like it.

8 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Nekros

I like this idea.

Regarding Siphon Life, Despoil, and Shadows of the Dead:

Shadows of the Dead should not be strictly duration-based. Instead, summoned minions would lose (6/5/4/3)*<max health>/<power duration %> every second. This gives a duration of ~33 seconds base with no incoming damage.

Shadows of the Dead should be recastable; recasting fullheals all minions on finishing the cast and adds more minions from the top of your soulcache to replace any lost.

Siphon Life should work as described, but Despoil should stay. This gives Nekros the same endless (when properly used) cycle of spend life/get life that he has with Desecrate/Despoil already.

8 hours ago, Azamagon said:

* I feel that Psychic Bolts should (instead of a chance of plain Radiation-proccing) alter the damage dealt from the struck targets: If they attack Tenno and their allies, they deal much less damage, but if they attack their own allies (via Chaos or Radiation etc), or Nyx while she is absorbing, they deal massively increased damage.

I like the thought of this, but it’s kind-of unintuitive to have a situational damage boost like that… particularly when you consider the augment. I think it should deal % health finisher damage since your armor and shields don’t prepare you for a mental conflict. Running with what Arch already has there, the base could easily be 30% per bolt with the caveat that the damage reverts after 3/4/5/6 seconds.

8 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Ivara

I like this. However, you maaaay have missed putting the .gif inside the spoiler.

8 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Nova

I think making the stars do AoE should be restricted to the augment.

8 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Equinox

I like this. It'd also help with people sucking Equinox’s energy down by spamming Molt or whatever…

8 hours ago, Azamagon said:

* Recasting Molt shouldn’t instantly cast a new Molt, but rather detonate the previous Molt at no energycost. Gives you better fine-control over its remote bomb capabilities. Molt granting Saryn some brief invisibility would also be nice.

More control is generally better, so yes.
The invisibility would help greatly, and having it in the base power makes it easy to justify leaving the duration unmoddable.

8 hours ago, Azamagon said:

* Miasma shouldn’t destroy Molt, as I feel Miasma should instead leave a lingering cloud which blocks enemy LoS or something. Then, Molt combined with Miasma, would work as a decoy even against ranged enemies. I find that important because, unlike Loki, she can’t cast Molt wherever she aims, she has to be where it is placed.

Yes. TBH, I think it'd be fair for Miasma to expand slightly between the damage ticks, too.
I dunno how LoS-blocking would work, though. Perhaps just let Miasma cloak all allies within the field? That'd be a pretty cool but not especially abusable effect IMO.

8 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Also, most powerful selfbuffs should be endable upon recasting (Such as Smoke Screen, Invisibility, Shatter Shield, Turbulence). Mirage’s Eclipse already functions like this.

Eclipse simply refreshes the duration. Ending these abilities on recast would probably be bad, since a lot of these abilities encourage mashing the key trying to get the ability off out of stunlock to try to not die. Then comes the question of whether the “scaling” buffs like Vex Armor can be refreshed and whether they maintain their scaled effectiveness.

8 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Buffs that can affect the entire team really ought to be refreshable (Roar, Warcry, Speed etc). This is even more so to be considered considering stuff like Roar’s and Warcry’s augments (so you can puncture-proc or slow enemies, respectively, on newly arrived enemeis)

Yes.

[Azamagon]

13 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Then perhaps something like... increased shield regen?

I know it's really minor, but that's kinda the point - the effect should be very bottom-heavy.

I don't mind it being bottom-heavy, not at all. If the shield regen can have synergy with the released bubble-part, even if only mildly so, then perfect! Just as long as the passive and released parts don't feel like they obsolete one another somehow (although I doubt that, considering that the shieldregen should be fairly weak, to make sure it remains bottom-heavy).

6 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

-snip-

Ash
Huh, that is a pretty good revamp of Bladestorm (since it is not another a stanceification of it, which it really doesn't need). It keeps the bladestormy mayhem, but also adds freedom and some potential interactivity. Not bad, not bad. Only thing I'd add would be max amount of assault available (a pool for both the clones and Ash himself, affected by Power Duration?), to make sure it doesn't become MORE powerful than now.
One thing I don't like about it though, is that it becomes very "lingering". What if I wanna mark a new area? Holdcasting removes the current area perhaps?

A lingering cloud would be awesome for Smoke Screen, yes. Opening up for Finishers though, that'd make Teleport semiredundant. I'd rather the cloud broke enemy line-of-sight, so it has DIFFERENT utility compared to his other abilities (which would also be a utility helping out the team!). The QoL it would make for Smoke Shadow would also indeed be great.
An aerial Smoke Screen that way sounds neat as well.

Banshee
What is wrong with that Sonic Boom addition? It just adds simple synergy with her apparent Sniper-theme. Note that my suggestion is an ADDITION, so you still have the shortrange crowdpushing capabilities. I dunno if I was misunderstood, or if you just dislike the idea. To make sure, I'll just clarify:
When casting Sonic Boom, you do two things:
1) You make a wide, but rather short, windcone, which pushes enemies away and knocks them over. This deals miniscule damage, but has the collisiondamage Arch suggested
2) You also make a thin, longrange soundbeam at the centre of the crosshair, which hurts with moderate finisherdamage. If you shoot this beam on a Sonar weakspot, it receives the damage-amp, just like if it was a weapon that hit the spot.
The ability overall is a onehanded cast and is cast (both the cone and the beam) in the direction of your crosshair. What's not to like? You find it too good?

Soundquake forcing hits on Sonar weakspots I dislike though. Why? It is a forced synergy, rather than a natural one.

Chroma
Cuz we all know fashionframe is the true endgame :D
EDIT: And being adaptable MIDMISSION seems more fitting for him and his lore, rather than just being "adaptable" PREmission.

Loki
It's a mild buff, I don't see the harm in such. Especially since it makes it less a braindead skill, but rather something that can be used better for stealth reasons (which should be encouraged, really).

I'd also further tweak other skills
Switch Teleport and Irradiating Disarm - Switching with an ally could grant a DR-buff (works for Decoy too, and it is ALWAYS granted to Loki, no matter if he switches with an ally or enemy), while switching with an enemy could cause a Radiaiton proc. Irradiating Disarm could instead be made into "Irradiating Teleport", which would make the Switch Teleported enemy's Radiation proc become contagious, meaning, if an enemy attacks that Radiated enemy, they get that contagious Radiation too etc (rank of the augment determines how many enemies can be spread the contagious Radiation from a single cast of Switch Teleport).
Having the Radiation-augment on Switch Teleport requires a more active contribution to spread the Radiation procs, rather than the mindless radial application via Radial Disarm.

Radial Disarm - I'd make Disarm duration based (Visually making sense of it: Enemies disarmed have their weapons jammed, a lá Shooting Gallery, and heavily glowing. They then holster the weapon on their backs and pull out a melee weapon. When the duration runs out, they unholster their ranged weapon again).
But I'd also give it better use with Power Strength (could be its augment): Enemies hit by Radial Disarm (wether immune to the actual Disarm or not) also get a "tricked" debuff on them, causing them to suffer a % of their own damage dealt, whenever they attack something. That'd give a nice and natural Decoy and/or Switch Teleport (due to its Radiation) synergy.

Nekros
I prefer those SotD, Siphon Life and Despoil ideas over Arch's (no offense Arch). I'd maybe prefer recasting SotD to summon MORE new Shadows, rather than healing old ones (to not make Siphon Life pointless), though.
I'd also add: Since Nekros no longer would care for actual corpses (with the removal of Desecrate), Shadows of the Dead could also raise shadows directly from nearby corpses (search range affected by Power Range ofc), if does not have enough souls stored on him. I'd even say: If you have enough corpses in range and souls stored, the distribution pool is always 50/50 of summoning souls via corpses or the soul cache. If there is not enough to summon from corpses or from the soul cache, the other pool compensates, if possible.

Nyx
Well, that is because the augment is a bandaid... I was more catering to its "psychic" feel, making it alter the mind of the enemies somehow. Having the bolts deal finisher damage in some form or another sounds good. Sure, they bolts are psychoKINETIC (hence the physical trauma), but they are also PSYCHIC, so I agree.

Ivara
Oops xD Will edit that!

Saryn
The LoS-blocking could use some form of stealth-based mechanics, yes. If you are in the cloud, or the cloud is between you and an enemy outside, you are considered to be in stealth. But if both you and an enemy are inside the cloud, you are no longer considered to be in stealth for that enemy. Or, DE could probably figure out how to make an ability work as a not-mobility-blocking object which still counts as an object VISUALLY. *shrugs*

Recastable/endable buffs
The reason I want those powerful survivability tools be ENDABLE, rather than refreshable, is because I feel there should always be a window for you to get killed. If it is endable, you need to play better with the environment to survive, rather than just brainlessly refreshing it without any risk.
The "mashing the key"-problem could be easily fixed by giving a 1-second window or so after casting the ability during which it cannot be ended early.

I had a complete brainfart when writing about Eclipse (i know it is REFRESHABLE, derp). What I really wanted to say here: I find Eclipse an exception: Ecplise is mainly considered a damagebuff (since light is a more common environment lighting), and a refreshable damagebuff is no problem. In darkness, she indeed becomes very tanky. But this is not a reliable tankbuff. Having it refreshable, unlike other survivability tools, thus seems fine to me.

 

And hey: Thanks a LOT for the very thorough feedback! Much appreciated! :)

Edited April 3, 2016 by Azamagon

[tnccs215]

15 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Then perhaps something like... increased shield regen?

I know it's really minor, but that's kinda the point - the effect should be very bottom-heavy.

mh... Why not reduce the recharge delay (too)? That is usually the most problematic thing.

I'd still like to hear your opinion on my revamp of Mend's energy consumption.

@Azamagon, I like your overall changes, and specially Ivara's Artemis Bow one. Rarely does one need a vertical salvo of arrows (because enemies dont mount each others back), so making the default horizontal and the charged a unique, incredibly powerful arow with a vertical hitbox is very, very attractive.

Also, what if damage done to one of Nezha's impaled enemies is also aplied to all impaled enemies? Would increase the possible damage output, instead of having to slaying them one by one. Not a necessary change, but would be rather pleasent.

I also like your Pacify&Provoke change. Currently, Pacify sports a terribly inefficient energy consumption, and that would help. A lot.

Edited April 3, 2016 by tnccs215
ChronoEclipse oppresses me

[blaes]

1 minute ago, tnccs215 said:

Currently, Pacify sports a terribly inefficient energy consumption

It only does when we go for max range, which is only required because of the fall off on pacify and maim.

Without fall off, you could choose between going max range to optimize maim and go full offensive (cause pacify drains too much on max range) or go for a more balanced build with medium range, less damage capacity from maim but perfectly usable pacify.

[Azamagon]

9 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

mh... Why not reduce the recharge delay (too)? That is usually the most problematic thing.

I'd still like to ear your opinion on my revamp of Mend's energy consumption.

@Azamagon (could somebody tell me how to make the name link in this new text editor?), I like your overall changes, and specially Ivara's Artemis Bow one. Rarely does one need a vertical salvo of arrows (because enemies dont mount each others back), so making the default horizontal and the charged a unique, incredibly powerful arow with a vertical hitbox is very, very attractive.

Also, what if damage done to one of Nezha's impaled enemies is also aplied to all impaled enemies? Would increase the possible damage output, instead of having to slaying them one by one. Not a necessary change, but would be rather pleasent.

I also like your Pacify&Provoke change. Currently, Pacify sports a terribly inefficient energy consumption, and that would help. A lot.

Reducing recharge delay (too) would be nice, yes.

Considering that your version wouldn't "mirror" Mend, i'd prefer the shieldregen passive and proactively healing bubble on release. It's simpler and more in line with Maim's functions. Unless... what if Maim also consumed energy per enemy killed, rather than over time? That would make it still powerful on lowlevel runs, but its energydrain would follow suit as well.

Artemis Bow - Exactly, making BOTH modes (and the inbetweens) more useful for different purposes is better. Right now, the current vertical quickshot is ONLY useful when you are up high on your wires and have a group of enemies coming in a line at you. Too gimmicky, imo.
With the changes I suggested, quickshot is good for widespread enemies, while the charged is good for conga lines, even when on the ground (not only from wire-positions).
Glad you agreed :)

Divine Spears - Yikes, that'd be so insanely powerful, unless the damageshare would be a rather low percentage. That (with a low percentage) could be a great augment.

P&P - Yeah, it really solves the terrible energy consumption without removing its "drain/event" mechanic.

[Foefaller]

On 4/1/2016 at 6:49 PM, Archwizard said:

I'm curious about the passives - since they said they were going to do one block pass at everyone's passives all at once.

Volt, I think it would work spectacularly if instead of building up from time on the ground (which also encourages just standing still), it was affected by distance traveled (creating synergy with Speed).

^{_{Still want Chroma to have wings.}}

 I'm pretty sure they specifically said "Ground distance traveled" and not "time on ground" in the livestream.

EDIT: Actually just checked and the term always used was "Time on ground." My bad.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Foefaller

[tnccs215]

1 hour ago, blaes said:

It only does when we go for max range, which is only required because of the fall off on pacify and maim.

Without fall off, you could choose between going max range to optimize maim and go full offensive (cause pacify drains too much on max range) or go for a more balanced build with medium range, less damage capacity from maim but perfectly usable pacify.

mh... I kinda agree with you, but I think it is a bit more complicated than that.

While yes, the energy consumption would be more "fair", pacify has the problem that its effect applies to enemies, not to allies. So even without fall-off you are both forced into maximizing your range (because, lets be honest, most enemies can and will attack you from much further than 16 meters away) and going into close quarters. Of course,  most enemies are also substantially more dangerous on close quarters, and those that aren't will not have to deal with the damage reduction, because they are simply too far away.

Not to mention how, many times, you are reducing the damage of enemies that aren't even attacking, or are incapable of attacking (due to being behind a wall, for example), while Provoke only costs energy when friendlies actually use abilities.If you want a better comparison, Provoke would be like Pacify if friendlies would always consume energy when in range, regardless of whether they are casting or not.

I've put on my rework thread for Equinox how there is a dissonance of where each Aspect is expected to be (close to enemies or close to friendlies): usually, both aspects are expected to be everywhere at the same time. In case of Night Form, you are expected to be close to friendlies due to mend, but close to enemies due to Pacify and Rest. 

Unfortunetly, I also let my personal tastes get the hang of me on the matter, so my solution was not that good. We'll come to that later though. 

@Azamagon , you criticized my proposal because it makes Mend too mechanically different from Maim, and though I find my solution good, I am forced to agree, because it is true. However, (and I'm not using this as an excuse to shield my idea, instead I'm using it to criticize Equinox's design) the same problem (though less obvious) already exists on Pacify&Provoke. I agree, abilities should be mechanically similar, only differing on the effect (that would further ensure the idea that both forms are one, instead of two seperate entities: they should be two sides of the same coin, not opposite coins altogether. It would also simplifying her use, because you only have to deal with 4 mechanics, instead of 7) but that doesn't happen with this power: Provoke is applied on allies, while Pacify is applied on enemies. Provoke doesn't have diminished returns depending on range, Pacify does. Provoke only drains on action, while Pacify drains on presence. Provoke is capable of having effect on enemies beyond the aura's radius, while Pacify doesn't.

You get the idea: though having similar animations and mirror effects, the small details of their mechanic completely alter the way one version is to be used versus the other. 

I hope you understand my idea, but it is basically this: maybe Pacify should, instead of applying to enemies, apply a damage resistance directly to allies and yourself. Yes, this means complete damage reduction to all damage, not just the one from enemies in range. It would also reinforce Night form as a support form, meant to be close to her allies more than her enemies, and would facilitate substantially the use of Mend. This would be a much more precise mirror version of provoke, and substantially more effective.

Only problem that I can think of would be how the augment becomes incredibly dissonant to the ability's functionality. However, I always found the augment to be a band-aid fix for Night Form's overall "lacklustery", so I think that reworking the augment all together and instead imposing a slow effect on Mend could do the job.

 

This is, of course, just an idea, and there are others just as good, or maybe even better. However, she demands tweaking, and tweaking must happen.

 

[EDIT]: By the way, the thing with Maim and it being channeled instead of consuming energy per damage stored is that Maim possesses a constant effect to all enemies that enter range, while Archwizard's ;emd doesn't. Though, with the Shield Regen... mh, maybe.

Edited April 3, 2016 by tnccs215
bolding

[blaes]

13 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Not to mention how, many times, you are reducing the damage of enemies that aren't even attacking, or are incapable of attacking (due to being behind a wall, for example), while Provoke only costs energy when friendlies actually use abilities.If you want a better comparison, Provoke would be like Pacify if friendlies would always consume energy when in range, regardless of whether they are casting or not.

I've put on my rework thread for Equinox how there is a dissonance of where each Aspect is expected to be (close to enemies or close to friendlies): usually, both aspects are expected to be everywhere at the same time. In case of Night Form, you are expected to be close to friendlies due to mend, but close to enemies due to Pacify and Rest. 

Those are two very good points. And while i agree that your suggestion for pacify's energy consumption is a very elegant solution, it only corrects one symptom of the problem, not the root. As such, other symptoms (like being almost forced into max range build to get full effect) are still present.

That is why, in my opinion, the fall-off needs to go (on both pacify and maim). but getting rid of the fall-off doesn't mean we can't also rework pacify's energy consumption.

 

On another note, I really like your mend idea.

 

@Azamagon:

damage spreading on targets impaled by nezha's spears seems interesting.

Edited April 3, 2016 by blaes

[tnccs215]

20 minutes ago, blaes said:

Those are two very good points. And while i agree that your suggestion for pacify's energy consumption is a very elegant solution, it only corrects one symptom of the problem, not the root. As such, other symptoms (like being almost forced into max range build to get full effect) are still present.

That is why, in my opinion, the fall-off needs to go (on both pacify and maim). but getting rid of the fall-off doesn't mean we can't also rework pacify's energy consumption.

Yes, that is why I propose the damage reduction to apply to allies instead of enemies, just like shatter shield or eclipse do (but maintaining the scaling as it is). That way, the only reason to go for a rage build is in order to support allies-- which is a good enough reason, but not obligatory. This would also sport @Azamagon's drain idea quite well.

However, Peaceful Provocation, if not reworked, should add the "per capita" drain like we currently have. after all, a slow is a constant effect, instead of an occasional one like damage reduction, which depends in actually taking damage.  

Edited April 3, 2016 by tnccs215

[tnccs215]

Forgot to say: I don't know if adding a duration scaling to Pacify&Provoke is a good idea, atleast how it currently is. it already is very, very tricky to build with power strength and range and efficiency, and adding duration to the mixture would only make matters worse. But that's me.

[--Q--uaint]

1 hour ago, Azamagon said:

Ash
Huh, that is a pretty good revamp of Bladestorm (since it is not another a stanceification of it, which it really doesn’t need). It keeps the bladestormy mayhem, but also adds freedom and some potential interactivity. Not bad, not bad. Only thing I'd add would be max amount of assault available (a pool for both the clones and Ash himself, affected by Power Duration?), to make sure it doesn’t become MORE powerful than now.
One thing I don’t like about it though, is that it becomes very “lingering”. What if I wanna mark a new area? Holdcasting removes the current area perhaps?

A lingering cloud would be awesome for Smoke Screen, yes. Opening up for Finishers though, that'd make Teleport semiredundant. I'd rather the cloud broke enemy line-of-sight, so it has DIFFERENT utility compared to his other abilities (which would also be a utility helping out the team!). The QoL it would make for Smoke Shadow would also indeed be great.
An aerial Smoke Screen that way sounds neat as well.

Thanks.
I don’t think it'd be bad for the rework to be an overall buff to Bladestorm; this version requires Duration to be useful, and Duration is Ash’s dump-stat.
Hold-cast to remove would certainly work.

Hmm. I get what you're saying there about Teleport. I suppose just blinding them for a stealth-multiplier would work.
As noted with Saryn, I think breaking LoS would be hard to implement and unintuitive in this game with enemies that have homing attacks and a propensity to keep shooting when they can’t see anything. I think it'd be pretty gimmicky, and I don’t think that’s really enough to make it a sidegrade rather than down/upgrade to Invisibility.
Something I could see happening is the smoke cloud captures all enemy projectiles sent into it and applies their damage to enemies inside it. It is magic smoke; it shouldn’t care about those silly “laws” of nature.

1 hour ago, Azamagon said:

The ability overall is a onehanded cast and is cast (both the cone and the beam) in the direction of your crosshair. What’s not to like? You find it too good?

I do like the one-handed cast aspect… and I know it’s a technical buff… but I don’t think the beam it fits the theme of the skill.

1 hour ago, Azamagon said:

Soundquake forcing hits on Sonar weakspots I dislike though. Why? It is a forced synergy, rather than a natural one.

Is it forced? Seems pretty natural to me that the master of sound could make use of the weakpoints she generates. The sad thing is that the damage would still be pitiful.

Ohey, a thought: Replace Sound Quake with Reverberation…
Reverberation would be a hard-CC and damage skill that costs 25 energy at base and has the Landslide-style comboing mechanic, but only for efficiency.
Reverberation is a target-area cast with a base radius of 5–10 meters, horses affected enemies into the current twitching animations for 4/5/6/7 seconds. and deals 100/200/300/400 instant damage to each target. If a target is already affected by a cast of Reverberation, the damage and duration is doubled.
If a target is afflicted by Silence, the damage is further doubled.

2 hours ago, Azamagon said:

I'd also further tweak other skills
Switch Teleport and Irradiating Disarm - Switching with an ally could grant a DR-buff (works for Decoy too, and it is ALWAYS granted to Loki, no matter if he switches with an ally or enemy), while switching with an enemy could cause a Radiaiton proc. Irradiating Disarm could instead be made into “Irradiating Teleport”, which would make the Switch Teleported enemy’s Radiation proc become contagious, meaning, if an enemy attacks that Radiated enemy, they get that contagious Radiation too etc (rank of the augment determines how many enemies can be spread the contagious Radiation from a single cast of Switch Teleport).
Having the Radiation-augment on Switch Teleport requires a more active contribution to spread the Radiation procs, rather than the mindless radial application via Radial Disarm.

If you're gonna muck about with Switch Teleport, I suggest keeping its current augment (…with maybe the addition of protecting Loki, but that'd be OP. Perhaps Loki gets the invincibility if he swaps with an enemy?). The contagious Radiation proc sounds great, and seems like it'd work as a replacement for/addition to the current direct CC. (As a sidenote, I'd really like to see that change propagated to the Grineer Commander’s version. [probably not the contagious part, even though it'd be hilarious]).

This raises a question; if Radial Disarm doesn’t have Irradiated Disarm, what’s the new augment? An amusing option would be to swap Irradiating Disarm with Defenestrating Decoy - Decoy now actively aims at ranged enemies, and disarms them on-hit.

2 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Radial Disarm

Noooooooo, don’t touch my Disarm. You can do what you like to Irradiating Disarm, it’s pretty ridiculously OP.

2 hours ago, Azamagon said:

I'd maybe prefer recasting SotD to summon MORE new Shadows, rather than healing old ones

Uhm. The augment would be hilariously OP with that. Also you could maintain that indefinitely if you could use Siphon Life to heal them, so you have an ever-growing army. I feel like that'd be bad for a number of reasons ^^;
If you mean to replace the current Shadows… eh. I guess that'd work.

2 hours ago, Azamagon said:

raise shadows directly from nearby corpses

Does that mean if you kill an enemy and cast SotD immediately, you're likely to get two copies of that enemy? I dunno if I support that. I think SotD should prefer the soul cache, and scrounge up bodies as a stopgap. Shadows generated from corpses should be at a level penalty, which makes it fine to have 2x of a given enemy in corner cases where it happens.

3 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Saryn

Ehm. Same LoS-issues as with Smoke Screen. I think a good alternative would be to:
Enemies under the affects of Miasma are subject to stealth damage multipliers; this adds synergy with Toxic Lash.
All allies inside the cloud of Miasma for its duration receive additive bonus armor equal to Miasma’s per-tick damage.

These tweaks would give Saryn a good reason to cast Miasma after level 50 or so. The additional effects are so strong because the duration on Miasma is so short.

3 hours ago, Azamagon said:

giving a 1-second window or so after casting the ability during which it cannot be ended early.

That’s actually accomplished through cast animations at this point. I worry about things like Molt and Speed, though. I guess you could institute a short cooldown on the re-activation, but I don’t like that idea.

2 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

I'd still like to ear your opinion

Was that the one where Mend charges on enemy death? I think that fits, sure. ^{I mouth you what, you've got some good English skills. _{I'll be here all week :V}}

2 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

Also, what if damage done to one of Nezha’s impaled enemies is also aplied to all impaled enemies? Would increase the possible damage output, instead of having to slaying them one by one. Not a necessary change, but would be rather pleasent.

Like Asamagon said, that’d be hilariously OP. Not only would he be one of the better nukers, but he would act as a enemy-density-based buff for literally every other nuker. Draco would be full of Nezhas immediately.^{Pleasant, please. _{;jskdjf;ldgn My inner editor is attacking me…}}

19 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Forgot to say:

There’s an edit button for that…

I'm doing a lot of nit-picking today.

[tnccs215]

5 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Was that the one where Mend charges on enemy death? I think that fits, sure. ^{I mouth you what, you've got some good English skills. _{I'll be here all week :V}}

Corrected it. Sorry, me not smart today.

9 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Like Asamagon said, that’d be hilariously OP. Not only would he be one of the better nukers, but he would act as a enemy-density-based buff for literally every other nuker. Draco would be full of Nezhas immediately.^{Pleasant, please. _{;jskdjf;ldgn My inner editor is attacking me…}}

Yeah, I suppose it would... Ignore it henceforward. My bad. Again, sorry for the many not good English. 

10 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

There’s an edit button for that…

Oh god please stop.

[Azamagon]

4 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

-snip-
@Azamagon

I hope you understand my idea, but it is basically this: maybe Pacify should, instead of applying to enemies, apply a damage resistance directly to allies and yourself.

Your analysis is well explained and I agreed with it, but as for the part I left quoted: Well... umm... yeah? Because that is exactly what I suggested (along with the energydrain mechanic) xD

The explanation you gave (the dissonance between Pacify requiring to be close enemies (while Provoke close to allies) and Mend is about being close to allies), is one of many reasons I suggested its drainmechanics.

So, I'll repeat my suggestion, to clarify again:
With Provoke active, if allies cast an ability near Equinox, they get a Provoke-buff for 3 seconds, which boosts their power Strength (for the triggering ability too).
With Pacify active, if allies are hurt when near Equinox, they get a Pacify-buff for 3 seconds, which reduces their damage taken (from the triggering attack too).
Neither buff can be retriggered until they have expired first (this is not a problem due to the triggering event also benefitting anyway)

In fact, the point of my suggestion was fourfold, really:
1) It reduces the ridiculous energydrain, mainly for Pacify (but also for Provoke)
2) It makes both Pacify and Provoke abilities that react to actual events (casting / getting hurt), not one by an event (casting) and the other by mere presence
3) It makes both Pacify and Provoke function in a way that encourages Equinox to be close to allies.
4) It makes Pacify no longer fall off with distance

I firmly believe that is how it should function, because it becomes more intuitive and gives that feeling of "different sides of the same coin" which she ought to have.

A little extra thought occured to me: Now both sides of P&P requires proximity to allies, Mend also requires proximity to allies, but Maim requires proximity to enemies. Maybe that is why they gave opposite target-proximity-requirements to P&P, just like Mend and Maim?
That said, having Pacify and Mend both working better when being closer to allies fits the support nature of Nightform. What it made me think about though, is if Provoke should be more in line with Maim, also working better when she is close to enemies? That way Nightform is about supporting allies by being close to allies, and Dayform is about hurting enemies by being close to enemies.
*shrugs* Might just be me overthinking a non-issue, but keeping the theme up could possibly inspire new ideas.

EDIT: FURTHER thought (overthinking commensing). What I said isn't entirely true: Mend requires both a proximity to enemies (to fuel it) AND a proximity to allies (to release it). Maybe this is also something that ought to be rethought?
Her intended positioning on the battlefield really seems to be all over the place. I need to think this through a bit more >_<

3 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

However, Peaceful Provocation, if not reworked, should add the "per capita" drain like we currently have. after all, a slow is a constant effect, instead of an occasional one like damage reduction, which depends in actually taking damage.  

First, I HATE Peaceful Provocation. Not because it is bad in its functions, but because it was such a boring option in the DC voting, yet people voted for it, urgh. Second, I hate it because it promotes sticking in one form for as long as possible, counter to her whole form-swapping design...

Anyway, I don't think it needs to work with a "per capita" function. I think Peaceful Provocation could simply work like this:
Enemies that attack an ally with the Pacify-buff are slowed down by X%, which slows down more, the more allies are attacked. Buff's slowing power is retroactive to all allies.
Enemies that die in the aura fuels Provoke's buffingpower, and allies with the buff on gets the bonus retroactively.

Personally, I'd scrap that horribly designed augment and rethink it. The other 2 augments are fine though.

3 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

-snip-

Ash (and Saryn)

If they could get LoS to work, I think it'd be worth it, because that'd finally be something new and unique in forms of utility. While it may seem "meh"-ish, note that this would require ranged enemies to run towards you, gathering them up for melee range combat... I think it could be a better utility than you think ;)

Banshee

Hmmm... but her theme is a mix of Stealth Sniper and a Soundbased "Mage" of sorts... this added beam would embody BOTH of those themes at once!

About SQ: By forced I mean that the synergy is not happening naturally, as per design of the skills. Lemme explain the difference:

Natural synergy:

1) Loki can summon a Decoy for distraction purposes. He can also switch positions with any unit, ally or foe, with the help of Switch Teleport! Heeeey, you can then create a Decoy somewhere and swap with it for cool mobility! There is no FORCED synergy here, it just happens to have a synergy as a side-effect of a welldesigned toolkit.

2) Loki can summon a Decoy for distraction purposes. He can also make all enemies meleeranged units with Radial Disarm. Furthermore, he can use Invisibility for stealth and melee boosting. Heeey, that means you can gather enemies in a pile by disarming them, putting a decoy where you want them to gather, then take them all out very quickly and easily by swinging your melee weapon into the bunched crowd while invisible. Natural synergy as part of just being a welldesigned toolkit.

Forced synergy:

1) Putting a toxic and viral proc on enemies increases your damage by Miasma because... well, because we say so. And well, to force a synergy with Toxic Lash and/or Molt and/or Spores.

2) Popping a spore when Toxic Lash is active grants you energy because... well, because we say so. And well, to force synergy between Spores and Toxic Lash.

See what I mean? The synergy is not natural, it is force-coded in, and is not something you can figure out instantly without actually knowing about it first (and/or if the description of the ability says so :P ). Forced synergy is fine, when kept at a minimum. For example, I don't mind the energy from popping spores with Toxic Lash, it just somehow feels ok, as meleeing should get all the incentivizing it can get. But Miasma's damageboosting from Viral/Toxic? No, sorry, it feels so insanely bland and forced to me. Sure, it works, but eh.

Thinking about it further, I guess I'd be ok with Soundquake autohitting Sonar weakpoints. It's a forced synergy, but I admit that it feels different enough to be seem ok. *shrugs*

As for Soundquake itself, I'd like it if it was more how Arch suggested it to be a long time ago: Instead of rooting Banshee in place, she puts a "soundmine" at her feet. If an enemy gets close to it, or if she triggers the ability herself by recasting it, the Soundquake starts, like now (with the same endable-at-anytime draining mechanic etc, but possibly with a max duration to compensate for her now having freedom to move). It keeps it almost entirely the same, but removes her rooted-in-place problem. Doing this though, would probably require a reduction in its range though.
This, I feel, would also fit her blend of stealthsniper and soundmage at once: You put down a trap, potentially with stealth in mind, AND it has a "nuke/CC"-effect.

Loki

SwitchTele can still keep its augment. After all, DE have said they want each ability to have multiple augments in the future. (And downright NO to giving it to Grineer Commanders, hehe. They have no counterplay as is, they need a complete revamp imo (or at least a removal of the stun)).

Haha, that Decoy augment sounds so OP :D

Sorry dude, but Radial Disarm's PERMANENT disarm is part of why it is so broken. The duration could still be decently long (Like 15 seconds at base on max rank?), but permanent effect is WAY too long, it's too much of the fire-and-forget design. He needs a reigning in, especially since it would more easily allow for his 2 weaker abilities, Decoy and ST, to get some minor buffs (like Decoy getting the uncastability + radial stagger on death/uncast (+ maybe making the Decoy have 2 seconds of the Snow Globe treatment?), while ST gets the innate Radiation-proc when cast on enemies + some DR for allied targets as well as for Loki regardless if he uses ST on a friend or foe)

Nekros

Doesn't Shield of Shadows already have a 90% DR cap though? Or you mean OP from the fact that you could keep the augment's benefits up too easily?
And for the evergrowing army problem, there could be a cap on max amount of Shadows out (say, 20 to 30?). And I meant NOT to replace, but to add further Shadows. Which, on afterthough, might be too much, I guess. If it replaced the old with new summons, I guess it'd be more balanced *shrugs*

" Does that mean if you kill an enemy and cast SotD immediately, you're likely to get two copies of that enemy? I dunno if I support that. I think SotD should prefer the soul cache, and scrounge up bodies as a stopgap. Shadows generated from corpses should be at a level penalty, which makes it fine to have 2x of a given enemy in corner cases where it happens. "

Good points. I guess all I can say to that part is: Ok, yeah, agreed :)

Saryn

Stealth multiplier? Wouldn't that be redundant if Molt gave you a brief invisibility?
Bonus armor from Miasma? That feels... like a buff out of nowhere.

Recasts/endcasts

For those that have castanimations, yeah, it's not a problem. But as you mentioned, stuff like Molt and Speed (Speed moreso) could need a TINY bit of a recastcooldown (even just 0,3 seconds could be enough) so you don't waste energy unnecessarily. I guess they could also be fine with no cooldown whatsoever. Players just have to be careful with their spamming then :P

Edited April 3, 2016 by Azamagon

[tnccs215]

1 hour ago, Azamagon said:

Well... umm... yeah? Because that is exactly what I suggested (along with the energydrain mechanic) xD

The explanation you gave (the dissonance between Pacify requiring to be close enemies (while Provoke close to allies) and Mend is about being close to allies), is one of many reasons I suggested its drainmechanics.

So, I'll repeat my suggestion, to clarify again:
With Provoke active, if allies cast an ability near Equinox, they get a Provoke-buff for 3 seconds, which boosts their power Strength (for the triggering ability too).
With Pacify active, if allies are hurt when near Equinox, they get a Pacify-buff for 3 seconds, which reduces their damage taken (from the triggering attack too).
Neither buff can be retriggered until they have expired first (this is not a problem due to the triggering event also benefitting anyway)

In fact, the point of my suggestion was fourfold, really:
1) It reduces the ridiculous energydrain, mainly for Pacify (but also for Provoke)
2) It makes both Pacify and Provoke abilities that react to actual events (casting / getting hurt), not one by an event (casting) and the other by mere presence
3) It makes both Pacify and Provoke function in a way that encourages Equinox to be close to allies.
4) It makes Pacify no longer fall off with distance

I firmly believe that is how it should function, because it becomes more intuitive and gives that feeling of "different sides of the same coin" which she ought to have.

Oh, I didn't got that from what you wrote, I thought you only tried to revamp the energy consumption :P 

In that case, I wholeheartedly  agree with the changes you propose. However:

1)Should we give it a range increase? base 16 meters is really, really low for a support ability, specially when you have to stay close to your allies for it to apply. Roar, for example, has a base 25 meters range, and doesn't demand friendlies to stay close to Rhino. Currently, the only powers that can fully enjoy Provoke's effect are channeled and duration based abilities, because they don't require you to stay close to Equinox.

2)I've read your thread about Mesa, and the feeling you have about shattershield, I always had for P&P. Yes, it fits, but it is so... general. Bland. Though I can't find a suitable replace, and I don't know if I should.

1 hour ago, Azamagon said:

A little extra thought occured to me: Now both sides of P&P requires proximity to allies, Mend also requires proximity to allies, but Maim requires proximity to enemies. Maybe that is why they gave opposite target-proximity-requirements to P&P, just like Mend and Maim?
That said, having Pacify and Mend both working better when being closer to allies fits the support nature of Nightform. What it made me think about though, is if Provoke should be more in line with Maim, also working better when she is close to enemies? That way Nightform is about supporting allies by being close to allies, and Dayform is about hurting enemies by being close to enemies.
*shrugs* Might just be me overthinking a non-issue, but keeping the theme up could possibly inspire new ideas.

 Actually no, you aren't over-thinking, I think. It is dissonant indeed, and I already had noticed it. I proposed in my thread to make Provoke's effect linguer after the ally leaves the field, though... maybe we should invert Pacify&Provokes current status. Maybe Provoke, instead giving extra power strength to allies, should increase damage against enemies in range? I don't know, because this alters the ability brutally: power strength doesn't always mean more damage. Maybe both effects?

1 hour ago, Azamagon said:

(...)Second, I hate it because it promotes sticking in one form for as long as possible, counter to her whole form-swapping design...

THANK YOU.

1 hour ago, Azamagon said:

Anyway, I don't think it needs to work with a "per capita" function. I think Peaceful Provocation could simply work like this:
Enemies that attack an ally with the Pacify-buff are slowed down by X%, which slows down more, the more allies are attacked. Buff's slowing power is retroactive to all allies.
Enemies that die in the aura fuels Provoke's buffingpower, and allies with the buff on gets the bonus retroactively.

Personally, I'd scrap that horribly designed augment and rethink it. The other 2 augments are fine though.

Mh... so, basically, the slow is only applied to the enemy that attacks? Honestly... the problem that comes with that is that either the teammate gets killed, or the enemy dies before it matters. I personally would make it give a base slow (20%) instantaneously, and make the rest being gained similarly like now (but at an increased rate. I think I have to die around 3 times to get it to full strength as the power is). Also, and this is non-negotiable:

Mend&Maim and Pacify&Provoke both change into the mirror version upon metamorphosis, instead of deactivating. Stored bonus or HP is maintained. 

Form changing would be Equinox's trump card if it wasn't so severely punished.

Also, I noticed that status resistance for teammates is something reserved for Oberon. I also think Shield Recharge increase and recharge delay reduction is, while nice, a bit "meh". What if we had status resistance to the equation? 

 

 

Also, changing the subject away from equinox: yes, there is a clear difference between "forced synergy" and "natural synergy". However, why is "forced" synergy bad? I personally really like how saryn gets bonus damage to enemies with toxin and viral status effects applied, and how Inaros 3 also creates sand shadows. I don't dislike forced hits on Sonar weakspots one bit. 

[Archwizard]

7 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

mh... Why not reduce the recharge delay (too)? That is usually the most problematic thing.

Basically what I decided on - the effect can continue to recharge your shields even when you're in combat. Something that doesn't need to be affected by Power Strength.

5 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

I hope you understand my idea, but it is basically this: maybe Pacify should, instead of applying to enemies, apply a damage resistance directly to allies and yourself.

Done.

I mean, I'd been considering it for a while - so only damage received procs the energy cost - but the slow augment basically cinches it.

8 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Nekros
I prefer those SotD, Siphon Life and Despoil ideas over Arch's (no offense Arch).

None taken, I never claimed to be the end-all-be-all on frame suggestion. (I still haven't caught up with all of the recent discussions in this thread, between my concept work, real life and my ADD shutting down my comprehension of long texts - which is all the thread has been lately.)

I just want to question... why attach Despoil to Siphon Life? Okay yes, it removes the energy penalty from the ability... but Siphon Life also deals damage and applies a Viral proc, so not only would it be a free party heal at no interaction (so long as you could siphon off at least 50 health per cast - I didn't intend for the siphoning to be so low that would seem like a risk), but it's free area damage to boot. We're concerned with balance here, not to just submitting to power creep.
(If anything, I would say have the Soul Punch augment transfer most of your health instead of costing all of your energy, now that we're making it more precious.)
Despoil presently exists to turn Desecrate into purely a way of regenerating energy, focusing on energy orb drops and creating an opportunity for bonus synergy with Equilibrium - an interaction that we've gone out of the way to try to eliminate, since Nekros' base kit is innately designed not to benefit from health orbs.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Archwizard

[tnccs215]

1 hour ago, Archwizard said:

Basically what I decided on - the effect can continue to recharge your shields even when you're in combat. Something that doesn't need to be affected by Power Strenght.

Oh, I like that. I really like that. Now Fast Deflection actually has a viable use. Still think that status resistance would be cool but this is much more unique and interesting.

Edited April 3, 2016 by tnccs215

[taiiat]

2 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Basically what I decided on - the effect can continue to recharge your shields even when you're in combat. Something that doesn't need to be affected by Power Strength.

the sort of stuff that Shield Polarize should be working with on the friendly buff side.... but Equinox... IS one of those Warframes that has some of everything, so i guess it probably won't step on anyones' toes.

[Archwizard]

Since we discussed making energy less available not too long ago, I made a reddit thread to see about player reactions to this kind of idea, on top of additional suggestions to pile onto it.

So far it's just getting a lot of downvotes, because anything that says "I want to nerf your Warframe" is going to receive tension.

[tnccs215]

7 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Since we discussed making energy less available not too long ago, I made a reddit thread to see about player reactions to this kind of idea, on top of additional suggestions to pile onto it.

So far it's just getting a lot of downvotes, because anything that says "I want to nerf your Warframe" is going to receive tension.

I don't have a reddit account and I don't plan to get one so, if you'd indulge me on this, I'll share my opinion on that thread here:

When you said it was getting a lot of downvotes, I expected that you had committed the "mistake" of mentioning removal of energy orbs before mentioning the natural regeneration (and inciting those who have yet to understand that something should be read completely before making judgments to comment negatively and downvote), yet you didn't even mention it directly. The fact that it still received downvotes without even mentioning nerfing measures proves how much this community has accepted powercreep as a pleasant matter of fact, and are incapable to think beyond the paradigm.

The Mitter augment embodies the vicious cicle of cheese this game has become: Cheese is introduced in order to combat the cheese that was created to prevent cheese. A new "loot increase" band-aid was created, one that does substantially more harm than good. And many will accept it, with joy and open arms, and than they will get back to the forums and complain how Warframe "no longer satisfies me".

I'm starting to believe the devs had the idea to make Inaros when they looked at the game and saw how it looked like a mummy due to all the wraps and bandages.

I hate to say it, but sometimes I wish DE gave less importance to players general opinion, and more to actually creating a balanced game. Yes, pleasing players is good, but when too many of your player base are power-crazy megalomaniacs (that you created when you pumped their veins with 3 gallons of steroids in the form of corrupted mods and exploitative mechanics) that fail to comprehend that the solution to feeling bored by crunching ants all day usually is becoming less than a behemoth yourself, than you should really stop back and analyze your priorities.

The enormous backlash suffered due to Saryn's rework is a tremendous proof of that. She is now deemed useless due to not be able to clear whole missions at the press of a button. Even though she has much more utility, is much more engaging, and still effective. I'm honestly happy DE stood their ground and refused to shamelessly buff her again due to the enormous volume of people that couldn't understand they now have to use all of her abilities instead of one. Yes, she has problems. Her health didn't require reduction, energy efficient became a substantial problem. But she is, by no means, the trash too many claim her to be.

I firmly believe videogames are an art form. And pities me how it has to become a service attending to the desires of an already established player base because, art or not, it is what brings the food to the table. So I can understand DE's caution with nerfs and their insistance on band aid fixes over reworks or nerfs. But there are limits,and while a band aid fix seems a good solution at the short term, in the long term we have... This. Overpowered weapons, overpowered frames, overpowered enemies. And lots of cheese to satisfy the rats.

 

ugh. I apologize for the tremendous amount of salt that I put on this post. I understand how the difference between people who crave for a balanced game and people who crave for a balanced game that doesn't take away their status quo of deities can almost be reduced to whether they like Dynasty Warriors'esque games or not. Whether they think that a warframe should be able to single handedly held against 10 enemies, or a thousand. But power creep must stop, balancing is required if this game is to survive at the long term. And if the status quo is toxic, you surely have to ignore those who appreciate it.

 

 

@Archwizard , have you already been told you have very good redactive and argumentation skills?

 

Edited April 4, 2016 by tnccs215
Refrained on the pointless and wrongful generalizations.

[--Q--uaint]

19 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Equinox

This rabbit-hole is too deep for me; I don’t actually play Equinox ^^;

19 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Ash (and Saryn)

What I worry about is
a) Enemies will just kill you in or after the cast animation since their currently-in-the-air shots don’t care whether they can see your or not
b) MOAs will literally just keep shooting at a wall, so that’s not helpful against them at all
c) Both Smoke Bomb and Miasma have pretty small ranges. You'd have to be really savvy to make good use of the LOS-blocking, and I don’t think I want to expect that of a WF-player… especially with the ridiculous variance in tilesets. Ceres and Phobos would see you git rekt since the enemies are surrounding you in a great big area, while popping them in a Corpus Ship would be basically invulnerability most of the time.

19 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Hmmm… but her theme is a mix of Stealth Sniper and a Soundbased “Mage” of sorts… this added beam would embody BOTH of those themes at once!

I agree, but I still don’t like it. Call me silly, call me unreasonable, it just seems really out of place. I would support making it an option to hold-cast to do a strong, ranged damage-beam instead of her current Sonic Boom.

19 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Soundquake

I saw that earlier in the thread, but Soundquake would still be basically useless for anything but CC… and giving Banshee a mine seems kind of… off. It would certainly help (and make it no longer actually counterproductive), but I don’t know that it would make Soundquake actually good.

19 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Sorry dude, but Radial Disarm’s PERMANENT disarm is part of why it is so broken. The duration could still be decently long (Like 15 seconds at base on max rank?), but permanent effect is WAY too long, it’s too much of the fire-and-forget design.

…..I know, I know…

I don’t think Radial Disarm is as OP as it seems. This isn’t PvP, this is a horde game where you slaughter large groups of enemies very quickly. Radial Disarm has no lasting effects, and locks you in a decently-long animation. Radial Disarm has a duration limited by the lives of its victims… and most of those aren’t very long.

19 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Doesn’t Shield of Shadows already have a 90% DR cap though?

I've not tested myself, but somebody I know has told me there’s no such thing. Since they removed the cap on the number of shadows you can spawn in a cast, you can apparently get over 100% damage reduction. He hadn’t been able to test it when I last spoke to him, because the Simulacrum apparently wipes your soulcache when you get back on the platform and the build’s not at all practical.

19 hours ago, Azamagon said:

And for the evergrowing army problem, there could be a cap on max amount of Shadows out (say, 20 to 30?)

IDEA GET. Institute an unmoddable cap on the number of Shadows you can have, enough to give you ~95% DR with the augment. Recasting SotD will only add shadows up to the cap, but the cost is prorated if the cap restricts you.

This means high power strength builds will have a sort of efficiency their own: You summon shadows once, and from there you only have to maintain your army. One or two shadows will be a pretty low casting cost, and the shadows' improved health bonus means you're very unlikely to lose a lot of them in combat.

At the same time, low power strength builds aren’t totally destroyed since they'll be able to build their army (and therefore DR if augmented) up through successive casts of SotD.

19 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Stealth multiplier? Wouldn’t that be redundant if Molt gave you a brief invisibility?
Bonus armor from Miasma? That feels… like a buff out of nowhere.

No. Invisibility doesn’t force a stealth multiplier. It’s dumb, but it doesn’t.

It is, but it makes it much less likely that Saryn or her allies will die due to enemies being outside of her range or having fired a missile before she cast. Seeing as Miasma is her only CC and is very limited in a lot of ways for that purpose, I think it’s probably fair. I feel like you could justify Miasma interfering with ranged attacks in some way, and melee won’t happen at all since the enemy would be CC'd by miasma.

19 hours ago, Azamagon said:

I guess they could also be fine with no cooldown whatsoever. Players just have to be careful with their spamming then :P

This pleases me.

18 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

What if we had status resistance to the equation? 

That sounds like a great idea. The shield regen thing has a potential to kind-of run into the end heal and vice-versa… but status resistance doesn’t have that problem at all.

My only worry is that it might be a little too OP.

17 hours ago, Archwizard said:

I just want to question… why attach Despoil to Siphon Life? Okay yes, it removes the energy penalty from the ability… but Siphon Life also deals damage and applies a Viral proc, so not only would it be a free party heal at no interaction (so long as you could siphon off at least 50 health per cast - I didn’t intend for the siphoning to be so low that would seem like a risk), but it’s free area damage to boot.

Fair points. How about this: Siphon Life causes Viral damage with a guaranteed proc… and gives Nekros a healing aura for ~5% of the damage he dealt per second. Recasting would refresh, not stack. In this way, Despoil becomes a viable but not OP augment: you no longer have to pay energy to heal yourself and allies, but you can’t spam it without consequence.

17 hours ago, Archwizard said:

(If anything, I would say have the Soul Punch augment transfer most of your health instead of costing all of your energy, now that we're making it more precious.)

That’s an interesting alternative, but that leaves the question of what to do with Despoil. Having two health-sapping augments would be rather bad, IMO. Siphon Life has your Stolen Time idea basically rolled into it already, since the SotD lifetime is based on their health.

A thought: Despoil is renamed to Imposing Intimidation, and is switched to augmenting Terrify. Instead of simply terrifying enemies, the skill now ragdolls them away from you and applies a slow.

18 hours ago, Archwizard said:

(I still haven’t caught up with all of the recent discussions in this thread, between my concept work, real life and my ADD shutting down my comprehension of long texts - which is all the thread has been lately.)

I've been kind-of wondering why you've not been responding much lol… That definitely explains it.

I just think saying you have a hard time with long posts is funny since your OP is crazy huge and your recent Reddit post is also pretty monstrous.
With regards to that said post, it seems that the reactions are actually pretty positive atm.

[Azamagon]

23 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

1) Should we give it a range increase? base 16 meters is really, really low for a support ability, specially when you have to stay close to your allies for it to apply. Roar, for example, has a base 25 meters range, and doesn't demand friendlies to stay close to Rhino. Currently, the only powers that can fully enjoy Provoke's effect are channeled and duration based abilities, because they don't require you to stay close to Equinox.

2)I've read your thread about Mesa, and the feeling you have about shattershield, I always had for P&P. Yes, it fits, but it is so... general. Bland. Though I can't find a suitable replace, and I don't know if I should.

3) Actually no, you aren't over-thinking, I think. It is dissonant indeed, and I already had noticed it. I proposed in my thread to make Provoke's effect linguer after the ally leaves the field, though... maybe we should invert Pacify&Provokes current status. Maybe Provoke, instead giving extra power strength to allies, should increase damage against enemies in range? I don't know, because this alters the ability brutally: power strength doesn't always mean more damage. Maybe both effects?

4) THANK YOU.

5) Mh... so, basically, the slow is only applied to the enemy that attacks? Honestly... the problem that comes with that is that either the teammate gets killed, or the enemy dies before it matters. I personally would make it give a base slow (20%) instantaneously, and make the rest being gained similarly like now (but at an increased rate. I think I have to die around 3 times to get it to full strength as the power is). Also, and this is non-negotiable:

6) Mend&Maim and Pacify&Provoke both change into the mirror version upon metamorphosis, instead of deactivating. Stored bonus or HP is maintained. 

Form changing would be Equinox's trump card if it wasn't so severely punished.

-minisnip-

7) Also, changing the subject away from equinox: yes, there is a clear difference between "forced synergy" and "natural synergy". However, why is "forced" synergy bad? I personally really like how saryn gets bonus damage to enemies with toxin and viral status effects applied, and how Inaros 3 also creates sand shadows. I don't dislike forced hits on Sonar weakspots one bit. 

1) Couldn't hurt. Short range support tends to suck a bit in Warframe's quick and rather spacey combat situations.

2) I feel the same. Many of the later Warframes tend ot have these "bland" near-passive abilities: P&P, Shatter Shield, Defy, Eclipse (to a lesser degree) and such, which to me feel very uninspired.

3) It is a bit tough to fix without changing the ability entirely. I mean, the current situation is like this:
Nightform has: Pacify = Enemy prox and then Mend = Enemy prox (to fuel) and Ally prox (to release)
Dayform has: Provoke = Ally prox and then Maim = Enemy prox (to duel and Enemy prox (to release).
Dayform is easier to position yourself, but Nightform, mainly due to Mend, is annoying. I need to think some more on how the to change the abilities to positioning is more streamlined (Say, all abilities from Dayform is about being close to enemies, while Nightform is about being close to allies. Something like that.)

4) I know right?

5) *shrugs* I don't like that augment anyway :P

6) Heh, indeed, those things sound like stuff that should've been there from the start

7) Well, I just have a personal dislike for forced synergy, since if it is added, it feels like the kit wasn't thought out all too well from the start. I'm just a sucker for natural synergy I guess *shrugs*

22 hours ago, Archwizard said:

1) Basically what I decided on - the effect can continue to recharge your shields even when you're in combat. Something that doesn't need to be affected by Power Strength.

2) None taken, I never claimed to be the end-all-be-all on frame suggestion. (I still haven't caught up with all of the recent discussions in this thread, between my concept work, real life and my ADD shutting down my comprehension of long texts - which is all the thread has been lately.)

I just want to question... why attach Despoil to Siphon Life? Okay yes, it removes the energy penalty from the ability... but Siphon Life also deals damage and applies a Viral proc, so not only would it be a free party heal at no interaction (so long as you could siphon off at least 50 health per cast - I didn't intend for the siphoning to be so low that would seem like a risk), but it's free area damage to boot. We're concerned with balance here, not to just submitting to power creep.
(If anything, I would say have the Soul Punch augment transfer most of your health instead of costing all of your energy, now that we're making it more precious.)
Despoil presently exists to turn Desecrate into purely a way of regenerating energy, focusing on energy orb drops and creating an opportunity for bonus synergy with Equilibrium - an interaction that we've gone out of the way to try to eliminate, since Nekros' base kit is innately designed not to benefit from health orbs.

1) While it could incentivize Fast Deflection (a very underused mod), I feel it could easily become a tad too strong. I really like the idea though, but if it WOULD be too strong, an similar alternative could be that she restores shields as a SEPERATE instance from the natural shieldregen. Say, restoring X (or X%) amount of shields every second. Just a thought.

2) Very, very good points. I can tend to forget the balance part sometimes (considering the current state of the game :P ) and focus more on cool synergies instead, heh. @ChronoEclipse had a good counterproposal though (making the healingpart a heal over time that only refreshes on recast, still continuing to be a sidegrade augment: If handled with care, it is selfsustaining. If handled poorly, as in, being spammed to much, Nekros could easily kill himself instead)

4 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

1) What I worry about is
a) Enemies will just kill you in or after the cast animation since their currently-in-the-air shots don’t care whether they can see your or not
b) MOAs will literally just keep shooting at a wall, so that’s not helpful against them at all
c) Both Smoke Bomb and Miasma have pretty small ranges. You'd have to be really savvy to make good use of the LOS-blocking, and I don’t think I want to expect that of a WF-player… especially with the ridiculous variance in tilesets. Ceres and Phobos would see you git rekt since the enemies are surrounding you in a great big area, while popping them in a Corpus Ship would be basically invulnerability most of the time.

2) I agree, but I still don’t like it. Call me silly, call me unreasonable, it just seems really out of place. I would support making it an option to hold-cast to do a strong, ranged damage-beam instead of her current Sonic Boom.

3) I saw that earlier in the thread, but Soundquake would still be basically useless for anything but CC… and giving Banshee a mine seems kind of… off. It would certainly help (and make it no longer actually counterproductive), but I don’t know that it would make Soundquake actually good.

-snip-

4) I've not tested myself, but somebody I know has told me there’s no such thing. Since they removed the cap on the number of shadows you can spawn in a cast, you can apparently get over 100% damage reduction. He hadn’t been able to test it when I last spoke to him, because the Simulacrum apparently wipes your soulcache when you get back on the platform and the build’s not at all practical.

-SotD snip-

5) No. Invisibility doesn’t force a stealth multiplier. It’s dumb, but it doesn’t.

6) I just think saying you have a hard time with long posts is funny since your OP is crazy huge and your recent Reddit post is also pretty monstrous.

1a) That is a matter of timing though. That it doesn't protect against in-the-air shots is a good thing. Positioning and timing should matter.
b) That is an AI flaw though (I guess?)
c) Wether most WF players are bad players or not doesn't matter to me as a counterpoint to not implement it. If even just one player could get good use out of it, I feel it is a worthwhile addition. And that the tliesets could matter... well that's PERFECT! Making the environment and positioning matter means that we are reducing brainless gameplay! :D

2) Ok, you just have a different opinion, which is fine :) But I disagreed with a holdcast for the longrange beam though, especially if it were to be Sonarspot-hittable, as precisionand holdcast don't mesh well with one another.

3) Does it HAVE to be something other than CC though? (With your Sonar synergy idea, it would be better for damage though) As for the mine-idea, it doesn't have to be a regular, physical one, I was actually thinking it could be a more energylike one (think: A ball of sound/air/pressure, compressed with voidpowers).

4) Oh ok. And your ideas sound good too. Frankly, ANY QoL improvement to SotD would be fine by me. It just needs SOMETHING

5) Huh, i was certain that going invis causes your first melee strike on an enemy got the stealth multiplier. Need to check that out more thoroughly then.

6) I find that amusing too :)

[--Q--uaint]

11 years ago, Azamagon said:

b) That is an AI flaw though (I guess?)

Nah. It’s been a thing for MOAs and only MOAs for quite a while now. I think it’s intended. It certainly discourages you from casting Invisibility while standing still….

13 years ago, Azamagon said:

reducing brainless gameplay! :D

I suppose I can’t argue with that.

Though, TBH, it’s only a teamplay thing (since Ash himself is invisible), and most anyone running a Duration Ash will be running Smoke Shadow. So it seems kinda pointless? I dunno.
I suppose it could go along with a rework to Smoke Bomb itself: The cloud lasts ~4–5x current Smoke Bomb duration, but Ash’s invisibility only lasts ~75% of the current duration. Ash may re-enter the cloud to renew his invisibility duration.

16 years ago, Azamagon said:

But I disagreed with a holdcast for the longrange beam though, especially if it were to be Sonarspot-hittable, as precisionand holdcast don’t mesh well with one another.

Fair point. I guess we just agree to disagree here?

17 years ago, Azamagon said:

Does it HAVE to be something other than CC though?

I suppose not. If she is getting the ability to recast Silence, though, she'll want something else out of her #4. Giving her the ability to do damage with it seems like a good plan.

18 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

As for the mine-idea, it doesn’t have to be a regular, physical one,

Obviously. Doesn’t really mesh with the rest of her abilities' aesthetics, though, I think. *shrug*

20 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Huh, i was certain that going invis causes your first melee strike on an enemy got the stealth multiplier. Need to check that out more thoroughly then.

It’s really weird lol. The stealth multiplier does seem to apply after a few seconds or whatever… but the invisibility from Molt would already be over by then. Letting Miasma act as a blind would be a nice little melee-Toxic-Lash-synergy-perk-thing.

[JFK_Had_No_Revives]

 "Energy generation changes: In order to reduce "spiky" energy generation and ability spam in lootcaves -
1) Enemies now drop health orbs in place of energy orbs, and energy orbs now drop from lockers and crates at the frequency of health orbs.
2) Power Efficiency on all abilities mimics the manner in which Power Duration scales on toggled skills - instead of +50% Efficiency reducing the cost by 50%, it now increases the number of casts you can fire on the same amount of energy by 50%. (Combo effects, ie Landslide, still function as normal.)
3) All frames now have a base amount of energy regeneration. As with Energy Siphon, these effects are disabled while hard-toggled abilities are active.
4) Consumables now have a cooldown per player."

I have 1500+ hours played on Warframe, this is by far the best F2P and one of the best game i've played overall.

This game is amazing because the Dev team is amazing.

But after 1500 hours i have to 100% agree with this. Ability spam needs to be removed. It will improve gameplay a lot and be so much more rewarding if we have to do clever usage of our abilities.

Because you know, everyday i see Ash using Bladestorm on 2 enemies.

ps: i'm french, don't be mad if i made mistakes.