An Idea For Rushers/door Heroes

[Cemges]

normal missions, place 4 players door bypass at the end.

defense and mobile defense, place invisible barrier to prevent players from passing past the room they need to be in, disable it between waves and next wave wont start untill everyone hit a ready button near defense objective.

Long live unreasonable fascist ideas

Hittinf ready button could be good however

Edited March 24, 2014 by Cemges

[Wahooo]

normal missions, place 4 players door bypass at the end.

 

defense and mobile defense, place invisible barrier to prevent players from passing past the room they need to be in, disable it between waves and next wave wont start untill everyone hit a ready button near defense objective.

There are better ways of doing this, but it is in sorta the right direction.

 

The OP has 1 point in in the right direction in that it is trying to make a benefit to team work.

 

1- rewarding good play

2- Punishing bad play

3- Forcing a play style with game mechanics

 

There is a combination of the three options, but really working on the reward system makes for a better game.

[DJ-7809]

Yes you do kind of sound like a elitist prick as you put it, but im not talking myself im talking about others. I myself dont have problem keeping up and go down only when im either overwhelmed by a insane force or act as a idiot.

Then why would you whine about it? I am confused.  I tried to tell you that there was no reason for whining in my first post, but you are a persistent little complainer.  Stop complaining about the game if you don't fit into the criteria for which your'e complaining!

Edited March 24, 2014 by DJ-7809

[CptWasea]

I don't think OP's idea would work. Consider this scenario: Mobile Defense, you are the only one defending the console while the others go on their merry way screwing spawns left and right, getting in each other's way while they do so. Who is punished? You.

Or this: people go on their killing spree or hunting down enemies far away from life support. They are not finding good spawns and the LS is failing; you go back to activate it. Who is punished? You.

 

For a few moments I thought a good idea might be to make the counter for the mission (MD) take longer depending on how many are defending it, or the pod to defend start losing health if the players are too far away from it, but then I realized the first case would not work at all.

 

Also, what ViLeDeth said.

[drMightyPotato]

Then why would you whine about it? I am confused.  I tried to tell you that there was no reason for whining in my first post, but you are a persistent little complainer.  Stop complaining about the game if you don't fit into the criteria for which your'e complaining!

im not whining about anything, i am simply trying to get at least a idea out to encourage teamplay, sure its not the best of ideas but its by far better in the sea of constant ''i dont like this/that'' posts that rarely give anything constructive.

Again, i dont mind fast gameplay, i do mind door heroes and people that don't give a single damn about their teammates. But do you see me whining about it anywhere in these 7 or so posts i made here?

[W00DSTER]

still gonna go fast

[(PSN)fingernageldreck]

I played today as loki while i had a door hero in the group. He died as rhino in wave 4(dont ask me how since he had iron skin on...).

So i was able to switch teleport him, while he was down, to the next cliff and send him flying.

So people will show and tell other people if they dont like certain game styles. But to reach more teamspirit it would be wrong to force players not to rush or anything like that, i read a great idea somewhere in the forum where it was suggested to add bosses here and there in the void mission for example. This could be a fun way make the group stick a bit more together, if it is added in the right way.

So its always better to offer rewards for certain things like team oriented gameplay instead of simple force like a blue wall comes out of the nowhere if you rush too fast. At least thats how i prefer games :D

[Ryme]

The problem with that is it requires an overhaul of enemy design such that player damage is meaningless as a statistic. Which means that weapons themselves are meaningless. It's possible to design enemies of greater complexity, but with the way the mod system works, how damages work. It's literally not possible to make an enemy that cannot be killed by one weapon. An enemy with 90% damage reduction to all areas until blast proccs blows off his armor, and then takes 50% more damage from Viral and Slashing damage? Vasto modded with Deep Freeze and Ice Storm, Pistol Pestilence and Heated Charge.

 

As long as one player is capable of bringing with him a gun for every problem that might appear in a mission (even if the problems vary from mission to mission), then it's not possible to build a game where teamwork is mandatory.

 

That's only if you try to implement it in terms of damage resistances and weapon procs. Taking your idea, it could just be a heavy armored unit with one randomly determined leg, arm, back, etc. piece that can be destroyed by normal damage, with the rest of them being immune to damage. This would be similar to boss encounters like Sargas Ruk and Lech Kril that promote team coordination or at the very least, indirect engagement tactics.

 

One change to an existing unit I can think of is to convert Shield Osprey from recharging shield meters, to deploying Volt's Electric Shield. That way, rather than just pour on more bullets to overpower the shield regen rate, players would have to take out the Osprey generating it or maneuver around it to shoot the guys behind. For that matter, the Grineer Shield Lancers are an excellent support unit whose shortcoming is only that the other Grineer units lack the AI to properly exploit the cover they provide.

 

They can also mix in enemies that dispel or shield allies against abilities. And with the new melee system, they could even add in enemies that can reflect ranged fire, and need to be engaged in melee.

 

If the only change in the way a player engages an new encounter is that blue bullets require 2 less shots to kill than green bullets, then that's a poor encounter. Rather than "mash button harder" they should at least be asked to "mash" a different button.

[topfoxrider]

I do not like the idea.

 

I am all for promoting team play but not by forcing you into it by punishing any other play style.

^

[drMightyPotato]

While my idea perhaps was not a good one, let alone the silver bullet some ideas in this topic are very nice perhaps if we give enough suggestion DE might come up with something concrete that they want to use. I hope, keep it up. 

Maybe a suggestion that might get some ideas here off the ground.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Alinna

[Synthua]

So... 3 people will camp the hallway and the one person that sticks to the objective will get punished? Nothing changes.

 

It is really not that complicated to make people want to stay near a certain object. All it needs is harder enemies and a benefitial aura around the objective. It doesn't help that we can push spawn all across the map, either.

 

IMHO, mod and ressource collection should be automatic no matter where on the map everyone is. Rig something up to exclude afks to appease the whiners for all I care, but I have had quite enough of wondering whether that one mod my carrier spat out due to host lag was something rare or just another pressure point.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Synthua

[Zeful]

That's only if you try to implement it in terms of damage resistances and weapon procs. Taking your idea, it could just be a heavy armored unit with one randomly determined leg, arm, back, etc. piece that can be destroyed by normal damage, with the rest of them being immune to damage. This would be similar to boss encounters like Sargas Ruk and Lech Kril that promote team coordination or at the very least, indirect engagement tactics.

 

One change to an existing unit I can think of is to convert Shield Osprey from recharging shield meters, to deploying Volt's Electric Shield. That way, rather than just pour on more bullets to overpower the shield regen rate, players would have to take out the Osprey generating it or maneuver around it to shoot the guys behind. For that matter, the Grineer Shield Lancers are an excellent support unit whose shortcoming is only that the other Grineer units lack the AI to properly exploit the cover they provide.

 

They can also mix in enemies that dispel or shield allies against abilities. And with the new melee system, they could even add in enemies that can reflect ranged fire, and need to be engaged in melee.

 

If the only change in the way a player engages an new encounter is that blue bullets require 2 less shots to kill than green bullets, then that's a poor encounter. Rather than "mash button harder" they should at least be asked to "mash" a different button.

Except none of it works to reward teamwork. The stuff you're talking about only encourages loadout variety, or more specifically utilization of the existing loadout variety. Which in and of itself is an important positive step in designing encounters. But part of designing encounters so that teamwork is incentivised is to either make rewards that everyone participates in better (like for example increasing the drop rates of rare mods if all players in a mission are killing enemies within 50-100 meters of each other) or making progress without the other players more annoying and difficult if not outright impossible and make it optimal or required

 

For example, two possible changes to the Sabotage mission type.

 

1: Rather than just walking up to the reactor and hitting "activate" you have to activate two consoles on opposite sides of the room within a short time of each other. With two people this challenge isn't, but alone or having rushed ahead, this should be something that requires precision on the part of moving between the consoles (which don't have to be on the other side of the room, one can be on a raised walkway from the other and require utilizing parkour to reach the other in time.

 

2: Rather than having multiple sabotage targets right next to each other. Put them in separate rooms, with many rooms separating them and then have the destruction of the objective create a bad situation (like no atmosphere, or fires, door lock downs, or even containment holding infested) or lock down the other objective. If in the case of a bad situation, make the other sabotage target make things worse, or in the case of lockdown, either lock the players out from completing the other objective, or force them to take a more circuitous route to accomplish the same goals.

 

In both cases, teamwork results in completing the mission faster than one guy rushing ahead and ignoring everything but the objective. Thus it's optimal to work together, where it's not required. Of course if teamwork becomes more efficient, then rushing must become less so, as it as a playstyle revolves around the anemic mission and enemy structure to do things as quickly as possible.

[Ryme]

Except none of it works to reward teamwork. The stuff you're talking about only encourages loadout variety, or more specifically utilization of the existing loadout variety. Which in and of itself is an important positive step in designing encounters. But part of designing encounters so that teamwork is incentivised is to either make rewards that everyone participates in better (like for example increasing the drop rates of rare mods if all players in a mission are killing enemies within 50-100 meters of each other) or making progress without the other players more annoying and difficult if not outright impossible and make it optimal or required

 

For example, two possible changes to the Sabotage mission type.

 

1: Rather than just walking up to the reactor and hitting "activate" you have to activate two consoles on opposite sides of the room within a short time of each other. With two people this challenge isn't, but alone or having rushed ahead, this should be something that requires precision on the part of moving between the consoles (which don't have to be on the other side of the room, one can be on a raised walkway from the other and require utilizing parkour to reach the other in time.

 

2: Rather than having multiple sabotage targets right next to each other. Put them in separate rooms, with many rooms separating them and then have the destruction of the objective create a bad situation (like no atmosphere, or fires, door lock downs, or even containment holding infested) or lock down the other objective. If in the case of a bad situation, make the other sabotage target make things worse, or in the case of lockdown, either lock the players out from completing the other objective, or force them to take a more circuitous route to accomplish the same goals.

 

In both cases, teamwork results in completing the mission faster than one guy rushing ahead and ignoring everything but the objective. Thus it's optimal to work together, where it's not required. Of course if teamwork becomes more efficient, then rushing must become less so, as it as a playstyle revolves around the anemic mission and enemy structure to do things as quickly as possible.

 

Ease of the encounter would be incentive. Using Lech Kril as an example. The easiest way to get at the weakspot on his back is to have someone else draw attention. In solo engagements, you would have to either use a CC ability (decoy) or lure him into committing to an attack that allows you to reposition yourself behind him.

 

Your suggestions would also work, but are more akin to the dual panel doors that try to "enforce" rather than "promote" teamwork. by gating progression at specific points. I think what would work better is to find a way to pace engagements throughout a whole mission, so that people are more likely to progress together, as opposed to just rushing to a door/panel/terminal and then waiting for others to catch up.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Ryme

[Zeful]

Ease of the encounter would be incentive. Using Lech Kril as an example. The easiest way to get at the weakspot on his back is to have someone else draw attention. In solo engagements, you would have to either use a CC ability (decoy) or lure him into committing to an attack that allows you to reposition yourself behind him.

 

Your suggestions would also work, but are more akin to the dual panel doors that try to "enforce" rather than "promote" teamwork. by gating progression at specific points. I think what would work better is to find a way to pace engagements throughout a whole mission, so that people are more likely to progress together, as opposed to just rushing to a door/panel/terminal and then waiting for others to catch up.

The thing is, that kind of play has to be the norm for all levels of play. A good potential example of incentivising teamwork through rewards at all levels of play is Captain Vor. If for example when he pulls out his void key laser, a player could block it to bounce it to another player and make him stronger during the fight. That kind of design gives the team a way to positively interact in more ways than just revives and heals that are independent of the frame of the players. But those elements need to exist from Mercury to Pluto, to the Void in order to be something the players respond to.

 

And the only difference between "promoting" teamwork and "enforcing" teamwork is the player being aware of the limits being placed on the world. Everything in my post was how I would design the in-game environments within the fiction of the world to stop the Tenno from breaking my stuff.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Zeful

[Wahooo]

, i am simply trying to get at least a idea out to encourage teamplay,

The problem is the game.

The game just doesn't require any team work for the most part.  It can help, make things easier or faster but it just isn't needed.  The fundamentals of the game would need to change.  Enemy scaling, better healing and consequences that make using abilities in some way strategic. 

Right now there is very little difference between solo and team play on almost every map.  More numbers get more numbers, but there are ways of running 99% of the games content with limited selections of frames.

Now DE has gone in a direction where they don't want a couple things, they wanted to avoid the standard DPS/Healer/Tank combination that is standard in so many PVE games.  They also wanted to avoid making any single frame 100% needed for any given run. 

I think they've succeeded on those goals, but they seem to have also sacrificed the need to have team work... like a Tank to draw fire for the squishy DPS to take down the enemies while the healer ignores doing damage and scrambles to keep the team up.

Instead all frames are viable, therefor no frames need anyone else and the game caters to solo play in a group.

Just like the ideas that came out when the issue of rushers flying to the boss not seeing the drop they wanted and abandoning the match were brought up that were trying to punish the players who were basically just playing the game the way it was made, maybe not the way it was intended, but the way it was made.

 

Now, as far as hallway heroes in MD/D/Surv  they are not actually playing the game the way it was made, due to the spawn mechanics, BUT they are playing the game the way they are conditioned.  There really isn't an easy answer to fix that without a game overhaul or training session to get people to group up.  But grouping up isn't even team play is it?  It is still solo play, just solo play in close proximity to others.

[Stormandreas]

Rushing is an essential dynamic of game. I dont get why everybody thinks it is wrong. People who think game should be slow are wrong imo.

Yes, it should be fast paced, but not in the sense to bypass everything and just head right to the end.

[DeadX65]

until DE has some way not to lose your loot due to host issues or client crashes, rushing is the most guaranteed way to complete a mission with the loot you pick up.

 

if you want to take your time, do it solo, or with a team of clanmates/friends/associates who want to slowboat it with you.

 

so no, you have options without asking for a change to the game into a play style you prefer

Edited March 25, 2014 by DeadX65

[Sloan441]

Normalizing movement speed would solve most of these issues.

 

Just sayin'...

[drMightyPotato]

Normalizing movement speed would solve most of these issues.

 

Just sayin'...

Or removing weaponcoptering, witch is probably what melee 2.0 will do. 

[ThePoopHunter]

I will tell you all my super secret ability I use to fight off door heros/Rushers. Trust me it works 100% of the time, it's extremely complicated so I highly doubt anyone else has tried this insanity.... but just in case you have, let me ask.

HAVE YOU EVER TRIED ASKING THEM TO NOT run off? -crowd gasps-

yes I know, the thought that other people are actually decent guys/girls who zoned out and wandered away from the group (or that you're just too @(*()$ slow) is CRAZY.... I too assumed everyone was an idiotic douchebag who wasn't interested in sharing exp, but apparently that isn't the case??!?!?!

 

I KNOW! I CAN HARDLY BELIEVE IT MYSELF.

For the first time in my life, I decided to be a brave pioneer and use the chat function that everyone in this game forgot existed...... I...... talked with squad.........

-edit- IF PEOPLE ARE HAVING TROUBLE WITH THIS COMPLICATED METHOD, JUST ASK AND I WILL MAKE A GUIDE THREAD OR SOMETHING

Edited March 25, 2014 by ThePoopHunter

[Motakshi]

Ellion and Lares are the first Defense/Mobile Defenses, the fourth and fifth missions a new player will do.

 

While not an actual fix to door heroes, I think a Lotus message ("Tenno, you need to stay close to the objective to ensure it's safety." or something Lotus-y like that) prompting players to head back closer to the pod if they stray too close to the spawn zones would be an eloquent way to kind give newbies a push in the right direction. It doesn't do much for players who understand what they're doing and do it anyways, but I know I used to do it until someone said not to. Having the Lotus say this would probably do a little good at least to stop more from being made out of ignorance.

 

Rushing comes from the monotony that is farming for a lot of stuff. I do enjoy going slower and "stealthing", but if I've spent a while unsuccessfully farming for a part (today for example, I killed Phorid about 15 times and got no Nyx Systems) you'll bet I'm going to be speeding through.

[Lickity-Split]

I will tell you all my super secret ability I use to fight off door heros/Rushers. Trust me it works 100% of the time, it's extremely complicated so I highly doubt anyone else has tried this insanity.... but just in case you have, let me ask.

HAVE YOU EVER TRIED ASKING THEM TO NOT run off? -crowd gasps-

yes I know, the thought that other people are actually decent guys/girls who zoned out and wandered away from the group (or that you're just too @(*()$ slow) is CRAZY.... I too assumed everyone was an idiotic douchebag who wasn't interested in sharing exp, but apparently that isn't the case??!?!?!

 

I KNOW! I CAN HARDLY BELIEVE IT MYSELF.

For the first time in my life, I decided to be a brave pioneer and use the chat function that everyone in this game forgot existed...... I...... talked with squad.........

-edit- IF PEOPLE ARE HAVING TROUBLE WITH THIS COMPLICATED METHOD, JUST ASK AND I WILL MAKE A GUIDE THREAD OR SOMETHING

</rant>

 

Most don't listen. Like the much larger percentage of Door Hero's in Defense & MD just laugh you off and call out noob etc.

My reply to them is standing dead center with Nova or Volt and blowing the entire defense map up as they spawn... Most Door hero's leave at this point (No kidding the actually abort because of this).

Thing is you get the stubborn ones that just go closer to spawn and end up dead (I never ever under any circumstance revive a door hero) or they afk at which point I leave the objective to die with my last chat message being "From the way you guys were playing I didnt think we needed to protect the objective".

 

I feel my method has created at least 1 or 2 team players out of the door hero's.

 

Rushers I have no problem with at all... Its their playstyle on a map that doesnt require teamplay so who am I to tell them not too.

They dont care if you lag behind and do your own thing.

[ThePoopHunter]

</rant>

 

Most don't listen.

that's exactly what I mean tho. Everybody says this, can you see the problem with that? A small stupid piece of bullS#&amp;&#036; that 90% of the game thinks is true (where the F*** did this come from anyways??). I was in a defense run earlier where some guy called this loki with a penta who was just destroying everything a door hero. Then he rage d.c'd. The Loki then asked me wtf was a door hero. He doesn't read the forums, he had no clue it was even a thing. He was mastery rank 9!

A lot of people on the game don't know the forums exists, don't see all these people complaining about it, HECK THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW THERE'S AN EXP RANGE MOST OF THE TIME. Instead of people just doing the obvious (or what I thought was obvious) and asking them not to rush/split up/door hero, everyone just rushes off to the forum to make some ridiculous rage post over nothing (most of the time at least).

Y'all should just try asking them, THEY WON'T BITE JESUS.

[(NSW)LilVanu]

Don't play with them. If you don't like them just leave the group and form a party without publics. Right? Simple?

If that's how they want to play the game let them play it their way. 

 

If you have an issue with bad players and you choose to do a public mission I'm actually going to say this: Expect it and find a way to avoid missions with the player in the future. Or you could communicate because a a while back I used to do this without realizing it was a &#036;&amp;*^ move. A lot of the time people like to jump to the wrong conclusions, and assume the worst in everybody. That's just plain wrong.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Sutherland

[Lickity-Split]

that's exactly what I mean tho. Everybody says this, can you see the problem with that? A small stupid piece of bullS#&$ that 90% of the game thinks is true (where the F*** did this come from anyways??). I was in a defense run earlier where some guy called this loki with a penta who was just destroying everything a door hero. Then he rage d.c'd. The Loki then asked me wtf was a door hero. He doesn't read the forums, he had no clue it was even a thing. He was mastery rank 9!

A lot of people on the game don't know the forums exists, don't see all these people complaining about it, HECK THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW THERE'S AN EXP RANGE MOST OF THE TIME. Instead of people just doing the obvious (or what I thought was obvious) and asking them not to rush/split up/door hero, everyone just rushes off to the forum to make some ridiculous rage post over nothing (most of the time at least).

Y'all should just try asking them, THEY WON'T BITE JESUS.

Maybe, just maybe in the time that this game has been around the people that say this have actually tried talking to them and are sick and tired of the "lol shuddup noob go play another game if you dont like this" answers that you get from them.

 

Yes you get the 1 or 2 nice people that listen, hell Ive even had full pug groups where we sit and chat about random junk while doing our thing.

But yes, most of them dont.

 

Please don't fall under the delusion that you are the only person that has ever used the chat function.

The people talking here might just have a little bit of experience on this fact.