Nikana Sheathing Animation Feedback

[N4Z0M3KU]

As many have already mentioned the edge-down position is most commonly associated with the tachi (predecessor of the katana) and wearing the katana stuck into your obi (belt) edge-up didn't really come into fashion until after the end of the Warring States period (1600) when the warriors no longer wore armour as often.

 

Speaking as a practitioner of kenjutsu my personal preferrence is for edge-up, however, the sword can technically be handled pretty much in the same way regardless of fitting assuming the scabbard is loose enough to turn sideways and upside-down (which is done in many kata regardless of which school you practice).

 

Humbly...

Edited March 28, 2014 by N4Z0M3KU

[Casardis]

snip

 

Thanks for your input. I'm definitely not as knowledgeable as you are so I'm happy to have a kenjutsu practitioner give their thoughts on the subject!

Edited March 28, 2014 by Casardis

[Pandoran_Stallion]

As a practitioner of sword arts (my family has done it for generations) we have traditionally done it blade-up, as that is the samurai way for a variety of reasons.

1) The high draw as shown in the video requires the sword to be blade-up.
2) A blade facing upward indicates a time of war or battle. A downward facing blade as shown earlier in the thread means that you are peaceful and unprepared for battle.
3) An upward facing blade is incredibly important to the sheathing of a blade. When sheathing, the scabbard shifts to the side and the blunt end is run across the scabbard until the blade locks into place. From there you rotate the blade facing upward (facing it downward could cause injury at this stage).
4) A blade at a time of peace is upside-down and tip facing right. During the Warring States period it was no longer the case so blades were constantly worn upward, indicating preparation for battle. A crouching was considered to be an insult, a hand on the hilt a challenge, and the two combined a call for a duel.

-UpgradeInProgress

Edited March 28, 2014 by UpgradeInProgress

[N4Z0M3KU]

3) An upward facing blade is incredibly important to the sheathing of a blade. When sheathing, the scabbard shifts to the side and the blunt end is run across the scabbard until the blade locks into place. From there you rotate the blade facing upward (facing it downward could cause injury at this stage).

 

Tried noto a few times (with a blunt iaito) after reading this, and I agree completely that the risk for injury is significantly increased. Thanks! One more thing to never try with a live blade...

 

Thanks for sharing some of the deeper symbolic meanings attributed to the orientation of the edge. Most traditions I'd heard of before only related to the direction of the tsuka when holding or displaying a sword, but since those were also based on states of "readyness" and "ease of use" the things you're saying make a lot of sense.

[JerZeyCJ]

Damn you, OP! I hadn't noticed until now, and I was so excited for it. Now all I'm going to be able to think is "He isn't holding that correctly!"

 

I hope they fix it.

Edited March 28, 2014 by JerZeyCJ

[AXCrusnik]

Ah... I new they would make this mistake hahaha.

 

Glad someone else remembered to look and make a thread about it.. because I forgot.

[Tveoh]

would be nice if they got it fixed in time for the update.  but may have to live with it for a bit.  Though do hope they change it to blade up.   

[StarInfinite]

Up voting and supporting this. It was bugging me seeing the blade facing down rather than upwards.

 

Also, Adding another reason why it should face upwards:
Having the blade face downwards would leave all the weight of the blade being supported on its sharpened edge, which would likely dull the sharpness of the blade and/or damage the underside of the sheath as you move around or draw/sheath the blade.

 

Please fix the position DE! Or at least give the weapon a 'stance' option to choose which you would prefer!

Edited March 30, 2014 by StarInfinite

[Casardis]

Please fix the position DE! Or at least give the weapon a 'stance' option to choose which you would prefer!

 

Even stances shouldn't dictate that, since it's arguably wrong for it to be facing down in the first place. I'd personally prefer if it's fixed outright for the whole moveset (except for quick draw moves, but idles should still be upward).

Edited March 30, 2014 by Casardis

[NovusNiveus]

+1. I definitely support this idea.

Jetstream Sam from Metal Gear Rising gets away with having the blade facing down because of his gun-sheath - the explosive charge behind the tsuba forces it forward and gives it enough momentum to follow through with a powerful strike immediately after drawing. Give us a gun-sheath and all is forgiven!

[zerossu]

[Casardis]

snip

 

Read above your post. There's a clear difference between Jetstream Sam and a more traditional scabbard.

Edited March 31, 2014 by Casardis

[Shin]

Read above your post. There's a clear difference between Jetstream Sam and a more traditional scabbard.

Well dont be so hard on him. Another katana can have a scabbard like that. That rifle-like scabbard is not unique, time to time people uses that idea. It wouldnt be too bad to have but yeah for now we need normal scabbards.

[zerossu]

Read above your post. There's a clear difference between Jetstream Sam and a more traditional scabbard.

tachi(太刀) edge-down

uchigatana(打刀) edge-up

http://www.katanayasan.com/tousougu.meisho.html#

[Casardis]

tachi(太刀) edge-down

uchigatana(打刀) edge-up

http://www.katanayasan.com/tousougu.meisho.html#

 

I assume you haven't read through the topic, because we did already talk about that. 

 

The Tenno's sword that's shown is much closer to what would be a katana than a tachi (and DE refers to it as the Tenno Katana), so it would be more correct if the edge was facing up. It would also be better if DE's planning to do quick draw techniques with the sword.

 

There's a reason why there was transformation from tachi to katana in the past, and one of the main reasons is the quick draw technique considered to be more effective with what we call today the "katana-style" (edge facing up).

 

 

Well dont be so hard on him. Another katana can have a scabbard like that. That rifle-like scabbard is not unique, time to time people uses that idea. It wouldnt be too bad to have but yeah for now we need normal scabbards.

 

I wasn't being hard on him. I was simply being direct and blunt. What zerossu's suggesting from their posts seem to show that they might have ignored most of the discussion. All of his points have already been said. There's also people practicing Japanese sword arts giving reasonable arguments in this thread.

 

There's no need to sugarcoat it in this context if they're going to overlook these.

Edited March 31, 2014 by Casardis

[Calayne]

It's true, what Casardis says. But one reason why they may have overlooked it would be cause the Tenno don't wear sashes, and the fact that they never need to worry about cutting their own fingers and their scabbards being able to freely rotate may be a reason they kept it blade-side down. The presence of a sash would really affect the way swords are drawn, I think. The blade-up style certainly is very natural given the entire Japanese attire.

 

I personally am partial to blade-side up, as I certainly find it more natural to sheath it after drawing the sword. It's much, much harder to put it back when the blade faces down, as pointed out by UpgradeinProgress and N4Z. Not to mention, it looks really badass.

 

Hopefully, they've considered both views and chose the blade-side down approach for a reason. Or it could simply be an oversight. 

 

One reason why I might consider blade-down in this approach as a ninja would be because crouching with a blade-up sheath may lead to me tapping on the floor with the tip of the scabbard. And if we assume that the sheath is flexible in its ability to detach from the waist, it makes sense that this style would change, since it's quite a natural, flowing movement to "Throw" the scabbard aside as you draw your sword.

 

If it's attached rigidly to the waist... I see a lot of scabbard-cutting and frustrating draws. Especially in the heat of battle, when we need to do so many quick-draws and rapid follow up attacks.

[Casardis]

Yeah pretty much. The main reason I'm arguing over this is simply for the sword drawing technique, since it's much more effective if it was upward by default (and can be turned sideways for horizontal/diagonal quick draws).

[Calayne]

Haha, if you have a katana, you can try the different styles, and even if you were untrained, just going through the motions will show you the difference of it. If it's set on the hips with a sash, it really is very natural to have it blade-side up, as evidenced.

 

There's a lot of conditions for using both, but it's been pretty exhaustively explained why the Japanese traditionally go for the blade-up approach. 

 

Anyways, here's to hoping it's slightly altered! Would be pretty pleasant to see some real-life katana techniques in Warframe, to be honest! We've been waiting for a katana for so darn long! <3

 

 

Edit: Looking at the video Zerossu posted, it seems Jetstream Sam's katana is detachable from his hips! He draws it not from his hips exactly, but detaches the scabbard before drawing it with both arms. Looks plausible, even if it's not used in real life. Good for dual wielding with the scabbard though, as some schools in chinese martial arts may do, though I'm unsure if the Japanese do so as well.

Edited March 31, 2014 by Calayne

[LGear]

Well, https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/204442-the-katana-in-the-warframe-the-sword-alone-video/#entry2381412'>DE Megan just replied in another thread that the issue will in fact be fixed by the time the update rolls out. Here's the presented WIP image:

 

[Llyssa]

The thing I'm not getting here is that if it's blade down, and attached as shown, the act of drawing the blade can be a very natural forward, horizontal slice, while if the blade is facing upward, it has to point towards your body until it's brought to bear.

[Athros]

The thing I'm not getting here is that if it's blade down, and attached as shown, the act of drawing the blade can be a very natural forward, horizontal slice, while if the blade is facing upward, it has to point towards your body until it's brought to bear.

 

The horizontal slice (iai, I presume) you meant is probably not from blade-down position, but from sideways, which is quite easy to rotate from blade-up position.

[Calayne]

Hell yeah. DE wins. Big time.

[Noogums]

I was about to link that thread here. Too slow, I guess. Locking this thread, because it got fixed before the update even went live!

[Casardis]

Bumping this for new discussion feedback that continues the line of previous discussion. You can read the feedback on the OP (changed completely), but I'll also quote here for convenience:

 

 

Now that Geoff fixed the idle position of the blade to be face up like a katana usually would, it seems another problem has surfaced. It does look more like an oversight to me due to the kinda-last minute changes from the katana sheathing position after the team has taken notice of it.

 

After a Tenno throws an attack with the sword, they will do a quick sheathing animation. THAT animation is still flawed as it uses the previous “blade down” position. It’s only after sheathing completely that they turn their sword around, which doesn’t make sense in practice.

 

You can see it from the images below the break:

GIFS inside

Right after an attack, the Tenno sheaths with blades down instead of up, but immediately readjust it at the end of the animation, as if they were thinking “oops, right it’s blades up…” after each and every single strike.

 

 

The reason I believe it’s an oversight from kinda-last minute changes is because the Tenno is almost sheathing it right when they do their katana idle animation. See below for sort-of better sheathing animation than above:

 

 

Even so, the second animation is still slightly wonky. It doesn’t feel as smooth as it could be, and I think it would be moreso if DE considers that the blade needs to be up if they want to sheath it in that scabbard (since they’re holding their scabbard right anyway, as opposed to angled like their sword).

 

I’ve linked it before but you can still watch this video again if you want to see how to properly sheath the katana with the blade faced up:

(Side note: when you do a downward stab, you stab with blade sup as well, as shown in the counter technique at 1:53. Current ground stabbing finisher has blades downward).

 

And here’s another one in video game context: Mitsurugi (<3) from Soul Calibur:

http://youtu.be/q_Oi-4EM7ek?t=42s

(go to 0:42 for badass sheathing)

 

Since they’ve already gone their way to change it blades up, they should do it all the way. Below are some more knowledgeable Tenno in the arts of kenjutsu that gave their inputs on the matter before, which are still valid points in the current context:

 

 

Thank you for your time and for fixing most of the animations, but there’s still work to be done!

 

 

Previous discussion, for those interested:

After watching the latest U13 teaser, I have to post this as a PSA, so that DE can choose to make the changes sooner, if they want.

From what I see in the trailer, the katana is sheathed wrong. The blade is facing downward instead of upward, and the Tenno takes it out with the wrong hand posture as a result. Though it's true the tachi blade (predecessor of the katana) is wielded downward, the katana isn't. They also have different shapes, and what the Tenno's holding is much closer to a katana than a tachi (DE even refers to it as the "Tenno Katana" after all).

 

Quotes from the wiki explaining the changes from tachi (edge down) to katana (edge up):

The rise in popularity of katana by samurai is believed to have been due to the changing nature of close-combat warfare. The quicker draw of the sword was well suited to combat where victory depended heavily on fast response times.

 

The katana further facilitated this by being worn thrust through a belt-like sash (obi) with the sharpened edge facing up. Ideally, samurai could draw the sword and strike the enemy in a single motion. Previously, the curved tachi had been worn with the edge of the blade facing down and suspended from a belt.

If you want to be more accurate to the form of katana wielding, I would suggest looking at some references such as this video.

Or other video game characters even, such as Mitsurugi in Soulcalibur who's holding it more accurately.


I'm not looking for complete realism. That's besides the point. I'm suggesting this because DE obviously based it on existing arts and forms, just like many other media like Soulcalibur, so I think it's a good idea to make these changes.

It's great to get inspired and go crazy with an idea, but when its source is obvious, some appeal comes from being accurate to certain source elements, because it's also acknowledging all the history and wisdom that these traditional art encompass. Simply dismissing these can make the subject lose its appeal as it tries hard to be unique.

And I'll keep on being picky about this detail until it's fixed (if it isn't when it's released) because the Tenno Katana is the one weapon I'm looking forward to the most :V

Edited April 15, 2014 by Casardis

[Pandoran_Stallion]

Hello, Tenno, I'm back (with new info!)

After playing around in my dojo (thank goodness I have a key (also, not my Warframe Dojo)), and rolling with some Kendo guys (who kicked my a$$ with this draw time and time again since I always trained to defend from top draws), I found the downward draw has its advantages. It is very defensive and allows for lower strikes which the enemy may not be expecting.

I also asked my father (who was incredibly happy I asked, it was almost scary), and it turns out that the sword down draw is done in Kenjutsu (which is a lot of slicing) while sword up is Iaijutsu (which is a lot of stabbing attacks). Sheathing is done from the side, as mentioned before. There also happens to be a far less common horizontal draw (and it's a ton of fun)! If/when DE introduces more stances I hope these other draws are demonstrated.

This aside, I've come to a conclusion: The blade must face up when sheathed while the draw may be from any direction (save blade facing you, which is outright suicidal). This means that while the draw is correct in the teaser video, the sheath needs to be turned to face down before it is drawn.

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vThis is all just me being a picky swordsman. DE did an AWESOME job and the Katana is getting the attention it deserves.v

In addition, the katana cuts are rather odd. They have a very Iaijutsu style to it but the footwork is horrendous, so much so that I have to look above the waist when carrying my Nikana. Rather than flowing, balanced footwork, their balance is heavy to the right side, they lean when cutting (a HUGE no-no, lest you lose your appendages), and on top of that they make it a single-handed swing (which is NOT the case, unless drawing). The katana is a two-handed weapon regardless of style unless you use Nitojutsu (the style that uses the wakazashi). In any style, hips are the primary source of energy (the sword tip should be almost directly in front of your navel, granted, it needs to be quite a distance away.). Footwork is also more flowing (a lot more shuffling and sliding, particularly one-foot pivots). One does not simply keep their hand on their hip (sheath?) when swinging a katana. It takes hip movement, not arm strength. We're not fencers.

Another thing: There should be a Kenjutsu style. That means turning the blade and doing uppercut draws, defensive draws, etc. It also means two-handed deliberate cuts (almost RESTING the blade before slicing). This would add variety to the playstyles. It would also give some long-overdue respect to the lower draw that I've changed my mind about (I am now attempting it myself, it's quite fun honestly).

Finally, the sheath needs fixing. It seems to be bonded to the player's left hand whenever he swings and it looks like he's using a sword of a different color.

^This is all just me being a picky swordsman. DE did an AWESOME job and the Katana is getting the attention it deserves^.

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On the bright side, DE did a great job with feedback, and I hope they continue to improve upon it since the Katana is a pillar of the culture they based this game upon.

Respectfully,

-UpgradeInProgress

Edit: GINORMOUS derp. I was thinking of jujitsu (not even sword art, woe is my brain) when I said daitoryuu, ignore that. Changed to reflect proper style, Nitojutsu, and please edit the OP accordingly as I do not wish to give misleading information.

Edited April 15, 2014 by UpgradeInProgress