The Crossbow To Come Feedback

[Vanhline]

so this is a new one for me.

 

i wanted to leave some damage output feedback based on the numbers presented in the livestream 26 for a weapon that isn't even out yet.....lol.

 

we could see the stats as you selected the weapon to show it off; with those numbers we can factor its DPS and to be honest when i ran them i was quite sad.

 

i understand that this weapon is still a work in progress and that the numbers we saw may not reflect the final product and thats exactly why im dropping this feedback now so that the weapon can be adjusted to be "on par" with similar weapons upon its release.

 

again i repeat: "on par" i dont want to advocate the power creep. this doesn't need to be the next best weapon. i just want to see it actually be useful, be comparable to its counterparts. because in its current state it doesn't stack up well at all.

 

 

we are going to compare this to the latron prime and paris prime. one, they are both accuracy-low rate of fire weapons just like the crossbow. two, comparing a crossbow to a bow.

 

latron prime DPS: 13k

paris prime DPS: 12k (little lower, higher per shot potential and innate punch through.)

 

crossbow DPS in its current state: 5363.616

 

the current state of the crossbow puts it less then half that of the main bows and latron.

 

the easiest way to fix this without making it outshine its counterparts is to simply give it the same base damage as the its bow brethren(200). i understand why you would lower it, it makes sense to lower it with its higher rate of fire. but, the significantly lower base damage and drastically reduced critical stats cripples the weapon. 

 

by increasing the weapons base damage to match that of the bows it brings the weapons DPS to: 11518.665

 

this puts it just under the others and still leaves room for improvement with a prime variant, making the weapon not only new and different but also makes it usable.

[Noble_Cactus]

Though it's too early to tell, I will say that I was a little let down by the raw stats shown on screen. It will likely never be able to compete with a bow due to its low crit and status chance, and while its base damage is ever so slightly higher than the Latron Prime's, its crit damage/crit chance/mag capacity/fire rate are all lower. Not to mention that despite it being an automatic repeating crossbow, its magazine only hold eight shots. Its arrow drop off also seems really fast, as in the arrow dipped very soon after firing.

 

My biggest concern is that it may use Sniper ammo. If it does, we may run into the same problem as the Miter. Which would be a shame. Many players have been waiting for a true crossbow for a long time now, and for it to be underwhelming would be a great disappointment.

Edited April 5, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[DrPandisimo]

Didnt Scott say a balance pass was needed anyways, why cant you just wait for it to be out, jesus....

[Noble_Cactus]

Because we're commenting on the current state of the weapon as seen in the video. There's no harm in trying to help along that balance pass, especially considering how DE has handled new gear in the past. Hence my qualifier of "Though it's too early to tell..."

 

Also, we don't know what type of ammo it uses because the dev cam was obscuring the ammo portion of the HUD. If the Attica uses Sniper ammo, that could be a big strike against it if it's truly a rapid-firing weapon.

Edited April 5, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[LascarCapable]

Why the hell is that thread here ?

 

The weapon isn't released yet.

Edited April 5, 2014 by Einde

[Ratisfaction]

stats were not final, just wait for the release

[Melkia]

Why the hell is that thread here ?

 

The weapon isn't released yet.

^this

 

stats were not final, just wait for the release

and this^ are my thoughts about this thread.

Seriously, what's wrong with you guys?

Edited April 5, 2014 by Melkia

[11.11.11]

Isn't the whole idea of a crossbow in the real world -  to be usable by those untrained in formal archery - have higher draw weights and armor penetration - but a slower firing rate? Just throwing that out there...

[Vanhline]

Didnt Scott say a balance pass was needed anyways, why cant you just wait for it to be out, jesus....

Why the hell is that thread here ?

 

The weapon isn't released yet.

stats were not final, just wait for the release

^this

 

and this^ are my thoughts about this thread.

Seriously, what's wrong with you guys?

 

you guys may not care how the weapon turns out, well i do. the current stats on the weapon may reflect the direction of were they looking to go with it and i, as a beta tester, am dropping some feedback based on that info. if we fix the issues before it comes out then we don't have to fix them after. so unless you have something constructive to add, move along.

Edited April 5, 2014 by Vanhline

[DoomsDayDan]

The crossbow isn't even out and people are already comparing it to Latron and Paris Prime

[Vanhline]

The crossbow isn't even out and people are already comparing it to Latron and Paris Prime

 

am comparing to them because they are all low fire rate high accuracy weapons. but if you read my post i say multiple times im not trying and am not saying it should be more powerful then they are. increasing fire rate or increasing base damage could be done to bring the weapon up to par without overshadowing other weapons. 

[MoyuTheTrinity]

am comparing to them because they are all low fire rate high accuracy weapons. but if you read my post i say multiple times im not trying and am not saying it should be more powerful then they are. increasing fire rate or increasing base damage could be done to bring the weapon up to par without overshadowing other weapons. 

I also would not like another countless level and trash weapon especialy one with such a cool theme I am game for anything that will mix up the normal and currently with the tester stats it isnt gona be usable

 

Its our job as beta testers and warframe FANS we are all fans here guys to give feed back on ajnythign given to us if it looks like it might be heading in a bad direction

 

yes a balance sweep has to be done, so?

a balance sweep of just this content wont promis it will turn out usable without abit of help from people who play more then the developers

just look at :

the balistica

the snipers

the marelok and grinlok

the detron and the brakk

the soma and the paris prime

the rhino prime

nova ignore this

 

Imagen all the possible things that could have been averted if they showed the stats in a livestream leting players get a sneak peak and then feedback was put on the forums to warn them about a travasty that could be usless or damage the game further into power creep

 

it also never hurts to give someone running out of ideas more ideas

Edited April 5, 2014 by MoyuTheMedic

[Noble_Cactus]

Okay, look at it this way.

 

Typically, when a big name company releases a fighting game - let's say it's Capcom with the next Street Fighter, or ArcSys with the next Guilty Gear - they do what are called "location tests." At major tournaments or conventions, they'll set up a couple arcade cabinets with their beta game on it. Players play the beta and can give feedback to the developers or company representatives/PR folks. People will also record and upload these matches to the Internet, where the vast playerbase can speculate on which character is going to be good, what move looks bad, what looks like it should be tweaked. Both the players on the Internet and the players actually at the venue are providing feedback. And sometimes, developers listen and make changes.

 

Granted, Warframe is not a fighting game. And granted, DE can more easily change their game than one of these companies can since WF is an endless beta (though they often choose not to, or simply cannot do that due to time constraints and meeting priorities). But the point still stands. Even if we only got a tiny glimpse at a weapon and have no idea how it will perform against endgame content, players are still entitled to speculate on a weapon. Giving exact stats that need to be changed is probably a bit much, but we can at least bring up key points for the developers to take heed.

 

Maybe they'll listen. Who knows. In the end, they're the judges of what gets into the final game. But we can help them make that decision by giving them ideas, even if it's based on pure speculation.

Edited April 5, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[MoyuTheTrinity]

Okay, look at it this way.

 

Typically, when a big name company releases a fighting game - let's say it's Capcom with the next Street Fighter, or ArcSys witht he next Guilty Gear - they do what are called "location tests." At major tournaments or conventions, they'll set up a couple arcade cabinets with their beta game on it. Players play the beta and can give feedback to the developers or company representatives/PR folks. People will also record and upload these matches to the Internet, where the vast playerbase can speculate on which character is going to be good, what move looks bad, what looks like it should be tweaked. Both the players on the Internet and the players actually at the venue are providing feedback. And sometimes, developers listen and make changes.

 

Granted, Warframe is not a fighting game. But the point still stands. Even if we only got a tiny glimpse at a weapon and have no idea how it will perform against endgame content, players are still entitled to speculate on a weapon. Giving exact stats that need to be changed is probably a bit much, but we can at least bring up key points for the developers to take heed.

 

Maybe they'll listen. Who knows. In the end, they're the judges of what gets into the final game. But we can help them make that decision by giving them ideas, even if it's based on pure speculation.

I wish more people where sensical like you

 

we can only hope they do pay attention to the players who care to give feedback and ignore the ones who want to wait till its to late

because once a weapon gets into the game it is subject to change BUT the team in DE incharge of fixing old content is wary of changing ANYTHING incase they change something into somethign even one person might not like because they put alot of forma into it to get it a certen way

the earlier they get feedback the better

I reckon after 2 weeks a weapon has been in the game it instantly gets thrown into the back of the line waiting for its turn to be fixed

Edited April 5, 2014 by MoyuTheMedic

[Melkia]

you guys may not care how the weapon turns out, well i do. the current stats on the weapon may reflect the direction of were they looking to go with it and i, as a beta tester, am dropping some feedback based on that info. if we fix the issues before it comes out then we don't have to fix them after. so unless you have something constructive to add, move along.

 

The thing is you can still submit your feedback after release, so that you can test it when it's finished and after a good amount of experimenting with it, instead of supposing or arguing over a few frame and stats showed from a dev build.

[Vanhline]

The thing is you can still submit your feedback after release, so that you can test it when it's finished and after a good amount of experimenting with it, instead of supposing or arguing over a few frame and stats showed from a dev build.

 

there is no reason whatsoever to wait, like at all. im giving them my feedback based off the info we've received thus far. mine and everyone elses feedback is info they can use in their "balancing pass" if they disregard it then they disregard it, in the end they will do what they feel needs to be done but offering up my input on the situation does not hinder the process or the progress in any way. in fact, when trying to make an impact on something the sooner you get involved in the project the better chance you have to make a real difference. 

[[DE]Momaw]

Stats as shown in devstream 26 - work in progress

================

Impact 5

Puncture 75

Slash 20

(Total 100)

 

Rate of fire: 1.8

Magazine: 8

Reload: 2.8

Critical 1.5x/20%

Status: 10%

================

 

 

I would be okay with an ammo-inefficient weapon that uses sniper ammo.  We already have machine pistols and assault rifles and shotguns that throw away ammo efficiency in favor of spray power.  Game has ammo mutation and ammo scavenger for sniper, it wouldn't be an issue.  More the problem is that Attica stats as shown do not have spray power. It's pretty much worse than the Grinlok, which has higher damage, 3.5x the status chance, better magazine:reload ratio, and is hitscan.... And Grinlok is, itself, not a popular weapon and completely outclassed by its sidearm version.

 

Attica needs much higher base damage, or much better rate of fire and magazine:reload ratio, or really strong critical hit performance, to be interesting to an endgame player. :(

 

That said it is gorgeous.

[LukeAura]

I'm not sure you can really have valid feedback on the Attica. 
It's stats aren't final, it's still going under balance tweaks.
And it's a regular weapon, and you're comparing it to two primes. Comparing it to the Braton/Boltor/Latron regular/Cernos would make a lot more sense, as it's likely supposed to be balanced at their tier of power. 

Edited April 5, 2014 by LukeAura

[[DE]Momaw]

Comparing it to the Braton/Boltor/Latron regular would make a lot more sense, as it's likely supposed to be balanced at their tier of power. 

 

Not competitive with Latron.  Latron has twice the magazine size, twice the rate of fire, with about half the damage. Which means it has similar burst DPS with more granularity / less overkill.  Attica crits more often, Latron crits harder, but neither weapon is really suitable for a crits build so it's kind of pointless. Latron has faster reload and is hitscan.

[Vanhline]

Stats as shown in devstream 26 - work in progress

================

Impact 5

Puncture 75

Slash 20

(Total 100)

 

Rate of fire: 1.8

Magazine: 8

Reload: 2.8

Critical 1.5x/20%

Status: 10%

================

 

 

I would be okay with an ammo-inefficient weapon that uses sniper ammo.  We already have machine pistols and assault rifles and shotguns that throw away ammo efficiency in favor of spray power.  Game has ammo mutation and ammo scavenger for sniper, it wouldn't be an issue.  More the problem is that Attica stats as shown do not have spray power. It's pretty much worse than the Grinlok, which has higher damage, 3.5x the status chance, better magazine:reload ratio, and is hitscan.... And Grinlok is, itself, not a popular weapon and completely outclassed by its sidearm version.

 

Attica needs much higher base damage, or much better rate of fire and magazine:reload ratio, or really strong critical hit performance, to be interesting to an endgame player. :(

 

That said it is gorgeous.

 

it is a vary gorgeous weapon, and i too like the ammo efficient weapons. problem is we already have ammo efficient weapons and no matter how gorgeous it is if it can stack up to the damage of its counterparts then its nothing more then mastery.....

 

 

I'm not sure you can really have valid feedback on the Attica. 

It's stats aren't final, it's still going under balance tweaks.

And it's a regular weapon, and you're comparing it to two primes. Comparing it to the Braton/Boltor/Latron regular would make a lot more sense, as it's likely supposed to be balanced at their tier of power. 

 

i would agree that when comparing to the non-primes then its not bad off but we dont know for sure that there will ever be a prime crossbow so i dont feel safe in comparing in prime vs non-prime standards. 

 

as for the stats your right they aren't final and that's what time trying to address, i just want to make sure this gets talked about and not just released and lost to the pile of worthless weapons used just for mastery.

[Vanhline]

Not competitive with Latron.  Latron has twice the magazine size, twice the rate of fire, with about half the damage. Which means it has similar burst DPS with more granularity / less overkill.  Attica crits more often, Latron crits harder, but neither weapon is really suitable for a crits build so it's kind of pointless. Latron has faster reload and is hitscan.

 

standard latron DPS: 6000, almost 20% more powerful then the crossbow, wile also being hitscan.

 

(on a side note, both the latron and the crossbows highest DPS builds are with crit mods.)

[Terrornaut]

Underwhelming indeed. The projectile speed, drop off, low critical rate and damage, and possibly other factors made it unattractive statwise.

There is still time. I hope they don't ballistica/Tigris this.

[Vanhline]

Underwhelming indeed. The projectile speed, drop off, low critical rate and damage, and possibly other factors made it unattractive statwise.

There is still time. I hope they don't ballistica/Tigris this.

this^

all of this^

[Eyeless]

Didnt Scott say a balance pass was needed anyways, why cant you just wait for it to be out, jesus....

 

 

^this

 

and this^ are my thoughts about this thread.

Seriously, what's wrong with you guys?

 

 

The thing is you can still submit your feedback after release, so that you can test it when it's finished and after a good amount of experimenting with it, instead of supposing or arguing over a few frame and stats showed from a dev build.

 

I'd like to point out...

 

That there's been plenty of times DE has said nothing is final and then it's exactly what we get. Everyone is underwhelmed and disappointed and it never gets fixed.

 

For instance...Valkyr.

 

They teased her claw-attack animations in a stream before she was released. They assured us it was just a work in progress and would be touched on before her release. Just some very basic punch-like attacks with her floating around off the ground doing them.

 

Scott hyped her up and said she was in a really good place right before U11 hit.

 

What'd we get? A lackluster frame with lackluster abilities and an ultimate that only used those exact animations shown in that one stream with no variation added. She still floated off the ground, she still used punchy-jabs that don't at all reflect how one slashes with claws...

 

Even now, she's hardly been touched and when she has been tweaked, it's been in all the wrong ways. Remember how they buffed Warframe armor? Yeah, that was pretty great too wasn't it?...

[Vanhline]

I'd like to point out...

 

That there's been plenty of times DE has said nothing is final and then it's exactly what we get. Everyone is underwhelmed and disappointed and it never gets fixed.

 

For instance...Valkyr.

 

They teased her claw-attack animations in a stream before she was released. They assured us it was just a work in progress and would be touched on before her release. Just some very basic punch-like attacks with her floating around off the ground doing them.

 

Scott hyped her up and said she was in a really good place right before U11 hit.

 

What'd we get? A lackluster frame with lackluster abilities and an ultimate that only used those exact animations shown in that one stream with no variation added. She still floated off the ground, she still used punchy-jabs that don't at all reflect how one slashes with claws...

 

Even now, she's hardly been touched and when she has been tweaked, it's been in all the wrong ways. Remember how they buffed Warframe armor? Yeah, that was pretty great too wasn't it?...

 

this is what im afraid of. this is why im throwing my feedback out to them so quickly and openly in hopes they will pay note to this in their "balancing." there is no harm in offering up your thoughts and idea, even on a project that is still in early development.