Tax Free Solar Rails & Why It's Bad

[Inquisitioner]

It's always funny to watch people complain about free stuff.

[Kitzun]

Fixed what? You didn't change anything.

I did, reread the guy's post.

[SolidSp33d]

I did, reread the guy's post.

 

his:

*sigh* I still think they shouldn't have even implemented dueling and conclaves. Every multiplayer games doesn't NEED PvP. PvP just brings out the worst in people.

 

yours:

*sigh* I still think they shouldn't have even implemented dueling and conclaves. Every multiplayer games doesn't NEED PvP. PvP just brings out the worst people

 

All you did was bold the words at the end.

[Kitzun]

his:

*sigh* I still think they shouldn't have even implemented dueling and conclaves. Every multiplayer games doesn't NEED PvP. PvP just brings out the worst in people.

 

yours:

*sigh* I still think they shouldn't have even implemented dueling and conclaves. Every multiplayer games doesn't NEED PvP. PvP just brings out the worst people

 

All you did was bold the words at the end.

Read again, I'm a magician, I made a word disappear.

[SolidSp33d]

Read again, I'm a magician, I made a word disappear.

 

....how the bloody hell did I miss that....so many times.

I need to lay down.

[Morec0]

....how the bloody hell did I miss that....so many times.

I need to lay down.

 

We've all been there, man, don't feel too bad about it.

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

If a large alliance wants to cover the upkeep out of pocket for the free advertising, who cares if they own a dark sector?  If they raise their tax rates then a challenger will come and if that challenger raises the tax rate, another will come until it finally rests at 0% again.  I know my clan can afford to cover the upkeep costs so will likely use a 0% tax rate and will gladly do it just to have the best farming grounds open to everyone.  Honestly, while this may not be the conflict we had hoped for it is far better for the community in the long run.

 

If DE wants to fix it they need to force incremental tax increases over time and that would just force alliances to work together rotating ownership.  Overall the dark sectors are just a temporary bandage to a far bigger problem.

[Kitzun]

If a large alliance wants to cover the upkeep out of pocket for the free advertising, who cares if they own a dark sector?  If they raise their tax rates then a challenger will come and if that challenger raises the tax rate, another will come until it finally rests at 0% again.  I know my clan can afford to cover the upkeep costs so will likely use a 0% tax rate and will gladly do it just to have the best farming grounds open to everyone.  Honestly, while this may not be the conflict we had hoped for it is far better for the community in the long run.

 

If DE wants to fix it they need to force incremental tax increases over time and that would just force alliances to work together rotating ownership.  Overall the dark sectors are just a temporary bandage to a far bigger problem.

But what problem ?

The lack of PvP ?

 

Warframe has ben sold since the very start as a PvE centric game, even the conclave were seen by many as an encroachment of PvP that should not have existed.

Why do you care so much about Players Versus Players while Warframe is supposed to be Coop game, it's not like we lack pvp shooters, CoD coming first to mind.

[Yazyflame]

So we're starting to see the first of the Solar Rails getting put up by those who most likely rushed the building of their Orokin Labs, no surprise there, and the thing we see advertised is Tax Free Solar Rails.

 

This is a bad thing.

 

Why? Those who have set up their Solar Rails into the Dark Sectors early get their fingers into those pies and are happy, but those who couldn't? They're going to launch their Solar Rails and watch as the incumbant clan/alliance just sit their with their tax frees, with no ability to truly influence the matter. This is an economics disaster in so far as the Solar Rail industry goes, that's a monopoly providing nobody else with the ability to compete.

 

Maybe I'm worrying over nothing, and the early birds will raise up their tribute levels at a later date, but I don't see that as a thing that will happen.

 

My personal believe is that the DE's should implement a minimum Tax level at the very least. 0% Taxes is bad for business, and that's what the Solar Rails are in the end. A Business.

 

EDIT: I'd also be quite happy to be proven wrong.

 

EDIT 2: I appear to have completely forgotten about the battle pay aspect, which is a valid point, but let's see what happens there.

You also forget about the Tax Rate INSIDE the clan/alliance, which charges ONLY the clan/alliance members. It makes Rails totally sustainable by themselves since most of them just go for EXP and not for another 990k Nanospores.

[2ply]

 

I had to do it...

[[DE]Momaw]

A key question is whether or not DE wants to force clans to compete with eachother. I think it's reasonably likely with the mechanics as they exist now, that many clans will simply leave the tax rate at 0% as a kindness and to cultivate recognition and goodwill. But DE could do any number of things to force more turnover in the rail ownership if they really felt like this is where the game needs to go.  I've always felt like their primary emphasis is on telling an evolving story more than anything else, but maybe that has changed or I just never understand their goals in the first place.

[Aggh]

There will always be some random Alliance of A******s who will decide to attack a dark sector just because.  No tax solar railways won't last long after people have to start paying battle pay and repairs out of their own pocket :|

 

 

But what problem ?

The lack of PvP ?

 

Warframe has ben sold since the very start as a PvE centric game, even the conclave were seen by many as an encroachment of PvP that should not have existed.

Why do you care so much about Players Versus Players while Warframe is supposed to be Coop game, it's not like we lack pvp shooters, CoD coming first to mind.

It's not like we lack coop shooters.  CoD comes to mind :|

Edited April 13, 2014 by Aggh

[Blatantfool]

 No tax rails. The great Carebear movement of Warframe.

[Altale]

Ideally people should aim for low taxes, but that's not fun and it leads to stagnation. TEAM CHAOS

[WildJuice]

bad lands have no point ...they just are more grounds to farm on....S#&$ty &#! endgame

[PoorCensored]

No tax rails. The great Carebear movement of Warframe.

Socialism and civic responsibility and not bad words. 0% tax rails are provided by individuals for the common good. Those doing so should be commended, not criticized.

To the person who responded to me earlier, this comment partially addresses you. Not every enterprise is driven by, or run at, a profit. I've known people who have owned businesses (restaurants, comic book shops, arcade) who ran their businesses as a loss, because they loved what they sold; and we're OK with having a different, primary job.

Clans can keep up 0% tax as long as they can get adequate income to cover their expenses from other venues in game.

[MushrooMars]

Quite frankly most big clans don't need to put taxes on their Solar Rails, even if they do have an upkeep cost. Most members of a moderately successful clans (I won't say Warbros... But Warbros) have so many excess resources that a monthly upkeep that an entire new clan would find absolutely outrageous wouldn't even be noticeable to a single member. It doesn't help that now we also have alliances which can pool their already outrageously excessive resources. 

 

I mean, you could say 0% tax rates are generous of the clans running the rails, but they *aren't*. You can't have an economy if the entire market is so heavily saturated that possible sources of income are ignored. The idea behind Dark Sectors is to provide an endgame for clans to fight over, but making *resources* the goal to be fought over is completely pointless. Everyone who has "reached" the endgame has enough resources to provide all of Warframe's new recruits with shiny new weapons for a day. The only way to actually simulate competition, possibly even *use of strategy* would be to have Dark Sectors provide access to some unique resource, mod or other... Valuable object that couldn't be acquired otherwise.

[Blatantfool]

Socialism and civic responsibility and not bad words. 0% tax rails are provided by individuals for the common good. Those doing so should be commended, not criticized.

 

 

 Enjoy your multiple million credit repair bills after every battle I guess. I mean, that'd just be the luck of all these clans banking on being able to make 0% work, right?

 

 It isn't a question of whether or not 0% tax settings are good for people. It is a question of whether your clan will be able to thrive while keeping it alive.

 

 Not just that, how long before the entire point of Dark Sectors has been utterly crushed because everyone is equally scared to go on the offensive and everyone wants to avoid having to defend as well? The 'excellent competitive clan endgame' rendered a joke by clans with their tail stuck firmly between their legs. Clans who want power but not conflict in a mode meant for earning power through conflict.

[ZephyrAM]

 Enjoy your multiple million credit repair bills after every battle I guess. I mean, that'd just be the luck of all these clans banking on being able to make 0% work, right?

 

 It isn't a question of whether or not 0% tax settings are good for people. It is a question of whether your clan will be able to thrive while keeping it alive.

 

 Not just that, how long before the entire point of Dark Sectors has been utterly crushed because everyone is equally scared to go on the offensive and everyone wants to avoid having to defend as well? The 'excellent competitive clan endgame' rendered a joke by clans with their tail stuck firmly between their legs. Clans who want power but not conflict in a mode meant for earning power through conflict.

 

So the entire point of the first endgame addition is competition in a cooperative game?

 

Well then, if it does get crushed, I'll be looking forward to seeing what DE does to modify it appropriately. Your terminology makes it clear what you think of the anti-competition/PvP players, and it's insulting. 

 

If we can work together and succeed at shutting out those that would cause fighting amongst ourselves, then the fighting was never really necessary. Time will tell which is true though.

Edited April 13, 2014 by ZephyrAM

[IronWolfSaber]

If you dont like it break it. 

 

This goes for DE as well; there may come to a point in Clans creating what is commonly known as the 'blue donut' where everyone is friends and neighbors with everyone else. 

Edited April 13, 2014 by IronWolfSaber

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

@Blatantfool

 

I guess the namesake rings true.  As for repair bills, who would attack a 0% tax rate dark sector?  It has nothing to do with cowardice and has everything to do with a win/win scenario.  Besides, the entire point of dark sectors was crushed the moment DE made such a poor design decision by not forcing a fixed tax rate of 20-40% for non-alliance players and 0% for being part of the alliance that owns it; then there would be a reason for clans/alliances to fight over the dark sectors as owning them would actually matter.  Don't blame the clans for being smart, blame DE for making a mistake.

[[DE]Momaw]

 

fixed tax rate of 20-40% for non-alliance players and 0% for being part of the alliance that owns it

So your plan is to punish or exclude everybody who doesn't want to deal with the political bullS#&$ of being in an alliance.

[PoorCensored]

Oh jesus I think we actually just agreed on something.

Well... My position shouldn't be a surprise. I do try to be ethically consistent. :)

[Tiqalicious]

 No tax rails. The great Carebear movement of Warframe.

It honestly baffles me that a community moderator on this forum is all too happy to toss that word around on a game built first and foremost around PvE and cooperation. You ought to be bloody ashamed of yourself.

[holdenagincourt]

My personal believe is that the DE's should implement a minimum Tax level at the very least. 0% Taxes is bad for business, and that's what the Solar Rails are in the end. A Business.

 

I don't think you've followed your reasoning through. If they implement a minimum tax rate, then the same clans/alliances (or different ones) will simply set their tax rates to the minimum allowed, while competitors wouldn't be any more able to set different prices. This wouldn't produce competition.

 

In fact, it would be detrimental to competition because those already in control of the solar rails to the dark sectors would be accruing credits and resources from those using them, while currently those with tribute set to zero are gaining nothing. This would produce the lock-in effect of clans/alliances already in control of dark sectors becoming more likely to maintain control of those locations in direct relation to both the minimum tax rate set by DE and the time elapsed since those tax rates were set.