We Have To Immediately Defend? Again?!

[OniDax]

Eh... I know that Americans are not so smart but please... Have u ever read any historical book? About defending towers/castles. USA is new country so u cant be compared to old European countries which knew much more about strategy and sieges.

 

Yeah, don't know about strategy? That's why we have the strongest military in the world, right? Plus, Blatantfool was right, and the comment had nothing to do with politics. Leave your jealous anti-US bias somewhere else. You don't see people here spouting off about Europeans.

[Blatantfool]

Is this a troll?

 

 Probably.

[Emeere]

There needs to be some kind of Median between Clan VS Clan combat and casual player

[Bakim0n0]

 This I understand. But still, that was a tad too far on the melodrama side. You've been around a long time. You know nothing launches picture perfect. Better to use the frustration as fuel for feedback on fixing it than being one of the hundred odd guys saying "I'll uninstall" or "I wont pay" without trying to actually express their needs, you know?

I am not giving some ultimatum about uninstalling, I was on the fence for months about giving up WF for good but I was hanging around for melee 2.0, and the "best" part of that is hidden behind a steep RNG curve... but ok, I can live with that.

Allowing for zero reward missions is beyond "not being picture perfect" it's flagrantly obvious that it's a horrible design. Low pay is one thing but ZERO pay? Are you kidding me? I wouldn't be nearly as pissed off that I've forked over hundreds (with an S) to this game if it was at least half as rewarding as a node next to it by default.

[ONiMETSU_Z]

Trust me, it's not going to last long. This 'free tax' mess isn't going to get anyone anywhere, and they'll all get smacked in the face with it soon for thinking it would work.

[RealityMachina]

People tend to want to be able to farm the new nodes with their awesome XP and resource rewards for more than a single day, you know? I know I do.

Heck, I was asleep or busy with this thing called "real life responsibilities" for most of the invasion. I'm quite willing to bet the rest of the alliance members have to deal with these things too, and the reasons the invasion was 16 hours long is probably a combination of there being members from around the globe, along with our size and someone making Sinai a priority once it looked like the other guys were actually concentrating themselves on that area.

 

Spending a good chunk of my Warframing time to defend a node so I can have maybe a few hours of the 24 available to be able to actually use those nodes is just not worth it. The attritional rail system is just a huge detriment if the actual rail invasions remain as unfun and unrewarding (no, better battle pay is not going to help unless it's something absolutely absurd like 10,000 per run, and I don't think there's any clan or alliance who can flaunt that much cash for long) as they are.

[Bakim0n0]

 Well, I wasn't really talking about the Credit angle.

 

 For one, I kinda think the Tenno enemies should be more common and generally a bit stronger - while leaving the Moas and Drones far less common to boot.

 

 And then load up the Tenno with an array of tasty Uncommon or Rare mods, stances included, so that killing them can reap valuable as hell rewards.

 

 Things like that.

I understood what you were getting at; I was commenting on what I believe to be DE's idea on how they would be rewarding... leave it up to the players to tax and then determine correct rewards.

The major problem with that is the players moved instantly for this "no tax" initiative which means there's no real benefit for the people who own the rails and no real extra income for holding them to incentivise pushing back attackers to maintain that income be it with actual manpower or by offering juicy rewards to entice players to defend for them.

Mods would be great, upping the difficulty and making it more about tenno specters and such would be good too... but the way the system is now is unbelievably flawed and should never have launched in this state.

[Ryme]

Heck, I was asleep or busy with this thing called "real life responsibilities" for most of the invasion. I'm quite willing to bet the rest of the alliance members have to deal with these things too, and the reasons the invasion was 16 hours long is probably a combination of there being members from around the globe, along with our size and someone making Sinai a priority once it looked like the other guys were actually concentrating themselves on that area.

 

Spending a good chunk of my Warframing time to defend a node so I can have maybe a few hours of the 24 available to be able to actually use those nodes is just not worth it. The attritional rail system is just a huge detriment if the actual rail invasions remain as unfun and unrewarding (no, better battle pay is not going to help unless it's something absolutely absurd like 10,000 per run, and I don't think there's any clan or alliance who can flaunt that much cash for long) as they are.

 

Wait, you need to own the rail to play the node? I don't remember that detail being in effect.

[roaddogz]

There needs to be some kind of Median between Clan VS Clan combat and casual player

Not Really This Clan"End Game" not Casual players'.

[Blatantfool]

Yes. They do. Any ideas how that'll happen? Because from where I'm standing it doesn't seem likely.

 

Honestly, if those missions were just fun then this wouldn't be an issue. If there was some variety there, and with some reasonable amount of reward from inside the mission, as opposed to just from the Clan then there wouldn't be much of a problem. It wouldn't be as awesome as Dark Zones but it would mean that regular players would see it as something that's worth their time. 

 

As it stands it would in fact be radically more productive for everyone if the player base at large drew the winner of every contest out of a hat, all picked that one side, ran one mission each for zero reward and ended the attack that way. Maybe that's not in the spirit of the system, but it would be in the player bases interests to do so - To keep attacks to the shortest possible time and the Dark Zones available. 

 

But alas. We must squabble over them, and as people get more and more bored of the rail wars the longer attacks will take and the less of the dark zones we'll be able to enjoy. 

 

 Well, I do have a few ideas.

 

  First of which will require some time - because it relies on a Game system we don't have.

 

 As you know, Dark Sectors are like 1/3rd of the 'Endgame' DE has mentioned. We got it first purely because it was done first.

 

 One of the other systems, the apparently PvE oriented Faction Reputation system (In which numerous Subfactions in the origin system who are not strictly loyal to the corpus or grineer can be allied with by the player on a personal level or his clan/alliance on an organizational level) would be a good system to tie into the Dark Sectors strictly on the Clan and Alliance level.

 

 How? Battle pay. Right now Battle pay is straight up Credits out of the Clans coffers. That should, of course, stay. But I think to add on to this clans should be able to offer certain very special types of Battle pay options that they actually unlock by reaching particularly high faction rep levels as an Alliance or Clan as a whole.

 

 So lets pretend there is a Faction of Orokin Researchers that your Alliance has sided with. Once you've gotten high enough rep with them you'll be able to pay that faction a lump sum to set the battle pay on a contest node to something like 1 or 2 Orokin Cells or an Argon Crystal that comes out of their imaginary coffers. So suddenly your battlepay becomes incredibly useful. To balance it out you'd make it so that there is a one or two days cooldown on setting your nodes battlepay in that manner. So you have two or three different Faction pay options, which require you to pay the faction up front and have separate cooldowns.

 

 

 And secondly, I think the Tenno enemies should become more prominent in the Rail Sabotage missions. The Moa and Drone count should come down. The Tenno count should go up. The XP should be excellent for taking them out. Above all, they should get a very valuable list of drops.

[Teljaxx]

 Well, I wasn't really talking about the Credit angle.

 

 For one, I kinda think the Tenno enemies should be more common and generally a bit stronger - while leaving the Moas and Drones far less common to boot.

 

 And then load up the Tenno with an array of tasty Uncommon or Rare mods, stances included, so that killing them can reap valuable as hell rewards.

 

 Things like that.

 

 

This would be really nice.

 

That, and adding something like an extra 24 hour period before another contesting rail can be deployed would be nice. That way, everyone gets at least two days to access the normal Dark Sector missions between battles, and the battles themselves will be more interesting and rewarding.

 

It may not make the system perfect, but it would be a big help.

[Emeere]

Not Really This Clan"End Game" not Casual players'.

 

Yes, because we should cut 70% of the player-base from the being able to access the content on any kind of regular basis so that the 30% of players that make up serious Alliances can wave their E-peens about.

Right?

[DJSmash]

Except with keeping 1-2 rails you will still be able to enjoy the 24 hour grace period after winning. Having 8 rails gives you no time to take a break.

 

I cant argue about having 8 solar rail and not having the break but what I want to point out is that  If you really think that the 24 hour grace period is to be enjoyed..you are clearly mistaken. How long did it took for a Solar rail to be "defeated"? 1 hours? 4 hour? 6 hours? 12 hours? 20? 30 maybe? After that bam. You have someone at your doorstep. No.. the term "enjoy" is not applicable.

 

This part, I am just saying:

4k players putting up a 12hour++ straight fight for 1 rail, goes to sleep, wake ups and there's another 12 hour long of fight incoming.

 

#Edit1:

I didnt have the right words to explain it but this gentle tenno explained what I was trying to say:

 

Not exactly, you can only play the node when it's not being actively contested.

 

With how cheap solar rails are and the fact that you can try contesting a node right after your attempt (or another group's) fails, it pretty much means nodes are going have a max life of 24 hours before it goes back into an actively contested state, for a long while, anyway.

Edited April 14, 2014 by DJSmash

[Tograk]

My last reply, cause I dont want to waste time on you

 

 Probably.

 

Nope not exacly, I'm just talking about battles.

 

Regarding Dark Sectors:

1. We need to change time between battles

2. Defenders should have more advantage

Edited April 17, 2014 by Letter13
Let's not do the political thing, ok?

[PsychedelicSnake]

 Well, I wasn't really talking about the Credit angle.

 

 For one, I kinda think the Tenno enemies should be more common and generally a bit stronger - while leaving the Moas and Drones far less common to boot.

 

 And then load up the Tenno with an array of tasty Uncommon or Rare mods, stances included, so that killing them can reap valuable as hell rewards.

 

 Things like that.

You had me at stances.

[RealityMachina]

Wait, you need to own the rail to play the node? I don't remember that detail being in effect.

Not exactly, you can only play the node when it's not being actively contested.

 

With how cheap solar rails are and the fact that you can try contesting a node right after your attempt (or another group's) fails, it pretty much means nodes are going have a max life of 24 hours before it goes back into an actively contested state, for a long while, anyway.

 

EDIT: And blatantfool's suggestions on how to make rail invasions worthwhile to do would go a long way towards making rail invasions actually rewarding (possibly fun as well? Might depend on how well the Tenno AI are balanced when in greater number) to do (and thus by extension making the attritional rail system much less of a terrible system)

Edited April 14, 2014 by RealityMachina

[roaddogz]

Yes, because we should cut 70% of the player-base from the being able to access the content on any kind of regular basis so that the 30% of players that make up serious Alliances can wave their E-peens about.

Right?

Exactly. Casual player have their own end game coming... just be patient .

[Emeere]

Exactly. Casual player have their own end game coming... just be patient .

Or they could not segregate the player bases and let all players enjoy all the content equally.

Also: Source? I'd love to see where DE said that Solar Rails would be exclusive to players with ego issues. I'd also love to see where they said they'd add two, separate End Games

Edited April 14, 2014 by Emeere

[Blatantfool]

This would be really nice.

 

That, and adding something like an extra 24 hour period before another contesting rail can be deployed would be nice. That way, everyone gets at least two days to access the normal Dark Sector missions between battles, and the battles themselves will be more interesting and rewarding.

 

It may not make the system perfect, but it would be a big help.

 

 I'm not going to be entirely sold on the forced peacetime cooldown until DE works on the costs of all this a little more and we really know for sure how necessary it'll be.

 

 I'm willing to keep an open mind, but I'm not particularly interesting in seeing defending become too easy, because then attacking will become silly and the whole system stagnates and becomes useless.. 

 

You had me at stances.

 

 I'm glad. Check out my other slightly longer post. Tell me if I'm still on the right track. I'm very interested in talking proper rewards. I think it is time for the community to start talking about and agreeing on solutions. The easiest topic will be what people want to be rewarded for.

[Vlayde]

I cant argue about having 8 solar rail and not having the break but what I want to point out is that  If you really think that the 24 hour grace period is to be enjoyed..you are clearly mistaken. How long did it took for a Solar rail to be "defeated"? 1 hours? 4 hour? 6 hours? 12 hours? 20? 30 maybe? After that bam. You have someone at your doorstep. No.. the term "enjoy" is not applicable.

 

This part, I am just saying:

4k players putting up a 12hour++ straight fight for 1 rail, goes to sleep, wake up another 12 hour long of fight incoming.

It takes 75k runs to kill a rail. Assuming all 4k players are focusing on 1 rail, and takes around 3 mins to finish a run, they can kill a rail in an hour. Even less if they're able to persuade the public to fight for them.

 

And 24 hours of "peace" is not what I'll call "Bam you have someone at your doorstep".

Edited April 14, 2014 by Vlayde

[achromos]

Or they could not segregate the player bases and let all players enjoy all the content equally.

Also: Source? I'd love to see where DE said that Solar Rails would be exclusive to players with ego issues. I'd also love to see where they said they'd add two, separate End Games

 

There wouldn't have to be 'segregation' between casual and 'hard core' if the casuals would get up to the hard core standard.  Then everyone would be the same instead of watering down YET ANOTHER game.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

EDIT: And blatantfool's suggestions on how to make rail invasions worthwhile to do would go a long way towards making rail invasions actually rewarding (possibly fun as well? Might depend on how well the Tenno AI are balanced when in greater number) to do (and thus by extension making the attritional rail system much less of a terrible system)

Yes.

Thing is though, making the tower missions fun is only one half of the solution. You have to do something about spammability of rails, lest you end up with the situation we're in now: Every rail contested more than it's open.

[OniDax]

Or they could not segregate the player bases and let all players enjoy all the content equally.

 

They could separate Dark Sectors and the infested defense/survival nodes.

 

Make the Dark Sectors all about the towers. Make them essentially public Void nodes that are taxed (unable to tax at 0%, maybe 5% minimum). Add a leaderboard to it, where it tracks Alliances' successes and failures. Add in some great Prime rewards, maybe stances as well. Diversify the enemy types. Create some special Tenno guardian enemies that have their own unique color set, and have enemies for each warframe. Change the missions to various different ones each time you join a conflict lobby (exterminate, 15 wave defense, sabotage, assassination). Have Prime Tenno bosses for your Dark Sector assassination missions. Have endless defense and survival missions for the uncontested Dark Sectors. Instead of having a 24 hour period to deploy the rail where you're just waiting for a countdown, make the deployment an invasion mission against the Infested in the tower. Only the members of the alliance can play these. Once you've completed the invasion missions (the same as any other invasion mission), then your rail is complete and you're ready to contest the defending rail.

 

Make infested nodes a true permanent part of the star chart, adding two, free, untaxed Infested nodes (one defense, one survival) to every planet. That's your solution to this crap.

Edited April 14, 2014 by AntoineFlemming

[Emeere]

There wouldn't have to be 'segregation' between casual and 'hard core' if the casuals would get up to the hard core standard.  Then everyone would be the same instead of watering down YET ANOTHER game.

 

Lmao. You're playing the wrong game if you're looking for the 'Hardcore' scene, my friend.

There is nothing 'Hardcore' about the Alliance Players, they're just playing an endless tug of war over who's name and tiny image shows up on the board, that only they care about/notice. If that's what defines 'hardcore' I don't want to stoop to that level

[Cpl_Facehugger]

It takes 75k runs to kill a rail. Assuming all 4k players are focusing on 1 rail, and takes around 3 mins to finish a run, they can kill a rail in an hour. Even less if they're able to persuade the public to fight for them.

That's a bunch of really bad assumptions to make. That all 4k players are focusing on one rail rather than, say, sleeping, that even if they are playing, they're playing the defense mission instead of other missions...

 

And 24 hours of "peace" is not what I'll call "Bam. You have someone at your doorstep

I would. A single day grace period is nothing in the scheme of things.