Pvp As An End-Game Option

[Boondorl]

"PvP? In my PvE game?"

 

Ahhh, player versus player. The concept of it in video games is as old as the games themselves. Even the very first game to see major publicity was nothing more than tennis. People love competition. Just look at how old sports is, and how long that's managed to stay around. There's a natural human instinct to compete with one another, even if it's for the sheer enjoyment of it. Even here, in this PvE game, you see people getting mad over "their kills being taken."

 

That said, the PvP in this game is very lackluster at the moment. I know DE was scared to add PvP, and I applaud them for at least tip toeing into PvP territory. However, PvP as it is (Conclaves, dueling) shows off a much bigger problem in Warframe: the awful balance.

 

"But it's a PvE game! Why do we need balance?"

 

Because, believe it or not, running around with nothing but OP weapons against dull AI gets tiring after a while. There's no point in actively gimping myself for the challenge when no one else will and will just destroy everything anyway. Playing solo is playing solo, and this game relies much more heavily on the experience than actual gameplay at the moment.

 

Balance helps make the game more challenging and fun. It no longer becomes a war of DPS and insta-gibbing; you now have the option to play however you like, and all those options are viable. Someone can still go damage on their rifle, while another person with the same weapon goes utility, and both work wonders. Enemies take more than 2 shots to the face, making them actually interesting. Believe it or not, the AI is pretty on par with other games. It just dies so quickly you don't even notice it.

 

Balance will help the gameplay experience overall, making the newcomer experience easier and the veteran experience more challenging. The way it should be. Releasing more OP weapons and mods isn't going to fuel your power-fantasy addiction. I suggest you play Doom with cheat codes if you want that.

 

"But this game was meant to be PvE! If they add PvP, I'll quit!"

 

Hate to break it to you, but PvP already exists on the star map in this game. No one mentions it because of that balance thing I mentioned up above. That's probably why DE thinks everyone hates it. If the game were more balanced, you'd probably see people using them more often for fun.

 

"But I don't want PvP as end-game!"

 

Do I care? How many people actually wanted Dark Sectors as end-game? See, that's the good thing about being optional, you don't have to do it. If you think anyone is forcing you, you're delusional.

 

"But it'll stop them from making PvE content!"

 

Uh, no, it won't. Guild Wars 2 has PvP and they still release PvE content all the time. They even give benefits in PvP that can be used in PvE. Arena Net has learned that if the two coincide with each other, it can work very well. DE can do the same. If they stop making PvE content, they need to manage their workload better.

 

"But why add PvP at all?"

 

Because shooting the same stale, boring AI in the face with my overpowered weaponry and frames for 900 hours gets old. Sometimes I'd like to take the challenge of someone who isn't operated by a computer with a fried motherboard.

 

You see, the good thing about PvP is you never really have to worry about it going stale. There's always new fun and challenges to be had in it. Even the most advanced game AI couldn't match that of a person. PvP games are fun because competition and challenge is, which proper PvP can offer both. At the moment, Warframe's PvP is neither.

 

4v4 matches on large-ish maps (imagine the outdoor Corpus defense maps) with Conquest and TDM or Free-for-All would be pretty fun. It keeps the size relatively small still while making it large enough to actually be enjoyable. The PvP could go a long way of extending the lifetime of this game.

 

Don't like PvP? Fine, like I mentioned earlier, it's optional. No one is hurting your precious PvE content, or forcing you to play PvP.

 

"But PvP will attract more as*holes!"

 

No, larger communities do. Regardless of game type, you'll see more as*holes the bigger your game gets. It's just how it works. More people = more chances for as*holes.

 

Overall, I think PvP has a lot of potential in this game. If DE fixed up the balance and made PvP more large and structured, I think it could be a very fun end-game option. Maybe they could add PvE rewards in it so the two can better connect with each other. For instance, playing PvP could get you rare fusion cores and special skins for weapons for doing certain things. For those with everything maxed, well, there's not really much you can do about that. There's only so much you can add to a game to keep players happy. At least PvP is replayable and enjoyable if done right.

[Retrikaethan]

NO.

[Deaths.Reap3r]

NO.

I really really do hate people like you.

Atleast explain why you think this...

These are like the most annoying posts ever.. annd Im willing to bet you didn't even read anything but the title.

Edited April 18, 2014 by Deaths.Reap3r

[Retrikaethan]

I hate people like you.

Atleast explain why you think this...

These are like the most annoying posts ever.. annd Im willing to bet you didn't even read anything but the title.

its pretty simple. he said pvp as endgame, i deny him. not going to bother reading/responding to the post because of the fact that so many people have made similar arguments which of course only amounts to "I WANA PVP!" and of course i have to point out how many other pvp games there are, why try to ruin one of the only PVE oriented games? if you want to fight people, go play something else. don't try to get the devs to waste their resources balancing everything just so you can fight people. hell, theres already conclaves and the dojo sparring room thing, if your hardon wont go away, use those.

 

edit: i can write, but S#&$ like this doesn't really merit more than a  "no."

Edited April 18, 2014 by Retrikaethan

[Renathy]

I really really do hate people like you.

Atleast explain why you think this...

These are like the most annoying posts ever.. annd Im willing to bet you didn't even read anything but the title.

 

Because if DE focus on PvP, then there will be little time to focus on PvE. This is a PvE game, therefore they should fix on what's strictly necessary, and not a small piece of content that half the community doesn't want, and the other wants. Not to mention that PvP is not lacking in mostly any existing game until today. - I don't mind PvP, though.

[optyk]

"But I don't want PvP as end-game!"

 

Do I care? How many people actually wanted Dark Sectors as end-game? See, that's the good thing about being optional, you don't have to do it. If you think anyone is forcing you, you're delusional.

 

"But it'll stop them from making PvE content!"

 

Uh, no, it won't. Guild Wars 2 has PvP and they still release PvE content all the time. They even give benefits in PvP that can be used in PvE. Arena Net has learned that if the two coincide with each other, it can work very well. DE can do the same. If they stop making PvE content, they need to manage their workload better.

 

 

Good thing GW2 is 'Buy Once Play Forever' then eh? See ya there Tenno!

 

No one cares about Yet Another PvP Thread. How many people actually wanted Conclaves? See, that's the good thing about "running around with nothing but OP weapons" being optional here, you don't have to do it. If you think anyone is forcing you, you're delusional.

 

Don't like PvE? Fine, like I mentioned earlier, it's optional. No one is forcing you to play.

 

Cheers.

 

ps - please reference an older more established PvP system when trying to post anti-care bear threads. Show some experience...

 

I wrote this whilst listening to Justin Timberlake - What goes around comes back around

[Silraed]

As long as the game is running a peer to peer system for hosting then PvP should never be a focus point of any content, in my opinion.

[Deaths.Reap3r]

i deny him. not going to bother reading/responding to the post 

Wow. That was the best reason ever...

Seriously dont respond to a topic without reading it first. Its very annoying

[Boondorl]

Holy sh*t, can you people even read?

 

Because if DE focus on PvP, then there will be little time to focus on PvE.

 

I literally addressed this issue. If DE can't do PvP and PvE content at the same time, I don't think they should be making a game to begin with.

 

 

hell, theres already conclaves and the dojo sparring room thing, if your hardon wont go away, use those.

 

I already mentioned this. No one uses them because of how unbalanced the game is.

 

No one cares about Yet Another PvP Thread. How many people actually wanted Conclaves? See, that's the good thing about "running around with nothing but OP weapons" being optional here, you don't have to do it. If you think anyone is forcing you, you're delusional.

 

I actually mentioned this issue as well. Perhaps you should learn how to read and stop being snarky for two seconds.

 

 

ps - please reference an older more established PvP system when trying to post anti-care bear threads. Show some experience...

 

Like? Would you like me to mention Doom? The age has nothing to do with it.

[Retrikaethan]

Wow. That was the best reason ever...

Seriously dont respond to a topic without reading it first. Its very annoying

jeez, follow your own logic and read the rest of mine.

 

edit: time for class!

Edited April 18, 2014 by Retrikaethan

[Monolake]

There is PvP, congratulations, you have your 'end game' go play it.

BTW PvP is more balanced than PvE belive it or not, all the broken exploits are not functioning in PvP, again, congratulations!

Now can PvE players get more balance, DE, please?

 

 

PvP is not being expanded because most WF players actually dont play PvP and DE focuses on other more important things instead, they dont have unlimited resources to work on both PvE and PvP. Maybe they will hire more designers.

 

also lol @"Do I care?"

[TheJiggliestPoo]

I play Warframe because it is a PvE game. I have loads of PvP games and quite frankly I'm tired of PvP. I much prefer content focused around what it is right now, a PvE-centric game that hopefully will promote much more COOP than it currently does. There is not enough good quality coop games out right now.

[OniDarkClown]

No thanks.  You can give whatever reason you think PVP should be added.  In the end it's just opinion.

 

I am Speaking for myself:  I never use the PVP We have now.  I never liked E-peen Measuring contests. and that's All PVP is and why I just flat out do not like it.  Other games can have their PVP and all the Tebagging hacking 12 year old Trash mouths that they attract. and cheers to them for it. but I wish to keep that FAR away from Warframe.

so no thanks.  the PVP in Warframe right now could be Removed. I could care less, since i never acknowledged them being added in the first place.

 

So, For me, it is a Vary Loud and Clear.  "NO THANK YOU,  PLEASE NO MORE PVP CRAP., GOOD DAY!"

[optyk]

Holy sh*t, can you people even read?

 

 

I literally addressed this issue. If DE can't do PvP and PvE content at the same time, I don't think they should be making a game to begin with.

 

 

 

I already mentioned this. No one uses them because of how unbalanced the game is.

 

 

I actually mentioned this issue as well. Perhaps you should learn how to read and stop being snarky for two seconds.

 

 

 

Like? Would you like me to mention Doom? The age has nothing to do with it.

 

You're OP was 'snarky'.

 

Age has tons to do with it; Doom does not. GW2 was not the best reference to use fas far as 'good pvp'. You lack experience, sorry man.

 

But please continue, I have made popcorn.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

As long as the game is running a peer to peer system for hosting then PvP should never be a focus point of any content, in my opinion.

This. We struggle to keep 4 tenno in a mission without lag with the current peer-peer connection system. Appreciable PvP needs more than that, at least 8.

I literally addressed this issue. If DE can't do PvP and PvE content at the same time, I don't think they should be making a game to begin with.

It's less a matter of "can't" and more a matter of "I'd rather dev resources go to more PvE content instead."

Most of us would rather have more pure PvE content than have the devs splitting their attention giving a small vocal subset of the playerbase something that the rest of us won't really use.

Edited April 18, 2014 by Cpl_Facehugger

[Narvask]

Why play a PvE game if you want PvP?  Go play guild wars if you want it.

Edited April 18, 2014 by Narvask

[Boondorl]

PvP is not being expanded because most WF players actually dont play PvP and DE focuses on other more important things instead, they dont have unlimited resources to work on both PvE and PvP. Maybe they will hire more designers.

 

Like? Dark Sectors and new tilesets? I have yet to see any sort of major gameplay change since starting all the way back in U7. Perhaps you should direct them since you seem to have an idea of how to actually lead them somewhere in this game.

 

also lol @"Do I care?"

 

 

I lol at people who think their preference is an actual argument. "I don't want PvP therefore it shouldn't exist!" You could at least try to give an argument that isn't the sh*tty fallacious "but they'll stop making PvE content!" argument.

 

I play Warframe because it is a PvE game. I have loads of PvP games and quite frankly I'm tired of PvP. I much prefer content focused around what it is right now, a PvE-centric game that hopefully will promote much more COOP than it currently does. There is not enough good quality coop games out right now.

 

How would adding PvP affect this? At all? L4D is still a solid PvE game despite having PvP. The two don't have to be against each other. Once again, the idea is to make them coincide. Give players reasons to play both PvP and PvE.

[Grrbacca]

Only an utter 'tool' would come on to the forums of a game they play and claim to like and say that DE doesn't know how to make a game if the can't add PvP to a PvE game.  Not to mention why do people think that a Developer has to change their game in order to make a small group of people happy.  And just so you know of all the games that have PvP in them that I have played, it is not easy to balance them.  Unless you are going to have totally different stats for powers for PvE and PvP it is extremely hard to get it right.  EQ2 got it right by doing that, Age of Conan got it extremely wrong.

 

You need to play more PvP games in order to understand how hard it is to get PvP done right.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Like? Dark Sectors and new tilesets? I have yet to see any sort of major gameplay change since starting all the way back in U7.

...

You didn't see Damage 2.0 then and how it completely changed the way we build our loadouts? :|

Even melee 2.0 is a huge gameplay change since melee is actually a viable alternative to guns.

Just how big a gameplay change does something have to be for it to be 'major' in your mind, if the two 2.0s wasn't?

[Boondorl]

-snip-

 

Given DE's history, I'd say you could call them incompetent at best. But that's not what this thread is about. At all.

 

PvP doesn't have to be perfect, but it should at least be reasonable. At the moment, there's zero point to it. I'd rather they remove the current iteration than keep it there as the bastard child of 5 minutes of labor.

[Phatose]

As a feedback forum, player expressing their opinion and preferences is the actual purpose of being here.  Arguements and reasons are window dressing and rationale, which may be useful, but aren't actually necessary.

 

Anyway, I'd prefer not to see this.  Not because they'd stop making PVE content, but simply because they'd be sharing resources with PVP which will lower the either the quality or the rate of new PVE content.  "They'll still make PVE content" is not equivalent to "They'll still make PVE content of the same quality at the same rate as if they didn't divide their resources", in that the first is true and the other is obviously false.  Since PVP content is of no interest to me, it's of no value, and losing even a little bit of something I do value for a lot of something I don't is a terrible trade. 

[LukeAura]

Setting up PvE awards in a PvP system is highly abusable in Warframe. 
A lot of games that do both keep PvP to PvP. Or, split the PvP in to factions so if you and a friend want to take turns boosting rewards off each other, you have to be separated by faction to do so.

PvP is also not the primary draw for people to come here. Until we have PvE endgame, PvP endgame is off the table. So it's not, "I don't want it." It's a case of what must come first.

Also, Warframe is a game about facing hordes of enemies, and earning power. Maybe, yes, that power needs to be toned down and made more engaging. But certain parts of the balance as they are now will have to remain, as they are what allow for horde mode combat.
To Balance for PvP and keep everyone satisfied you can't deny the balance for Horde mode style gameplay, and you can't deny them the power they've amassed. It's not really endgame if they've amassed all this power and told they can't use it. It's near impossible to make a system balanced for both when you also can't deny the horde mode PvE power that's been collected.
This is why conclaves and dueling work, but aren't Endgame. You have to set limits on your power and make predefined rules before engaging in it. 
Games that do Both PvP and PvE tend to control horde scenarios more and focus PvE battles on smaller skirmishes. Because smaller skirmishes can translate better to PvP combat.

If you want to create a PvP endgame system go ahead, but it'd be very complicated to design. 
You can't balance anything for PvP is the first rule, stupid as it sounds. It all must be balanced by PvE, then determine a system that translates that PvE balance in to PvP.
 

 

...

You didn't see Damage 2.0 then and how it completely changed the way we build our loadouts? :|

Even melee 2.0 is a huge gameplay change since melee is actually a viable alternative to guns.

 

I swapped elements a and c around so they would combine in the correct order with elements b and d, other than that builds didn't change. Rainbows are still widespread standards If Warframe was a puzzle game this would be major change.

That's an opinion. A lot of people still don't feel melee compares to gunplay. 

[Narvask]

Given DE's history, I'd say you could call them incompetent at best. But that's not what this thread is about. At all.

 

 

So why are you playing this game if you think that?  At least the DE Dev talk to their players.

[Boondorl]

You didn't see Damage 2.0 then and how it completely changed the way we build our loadouts? :|

 

Oh, you mean how I literally still do nothing but stack damage? Damage 2.0 was a step in the right direction, but changed absolutely nothing. Anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional.

 

Even melee 2.0 is a huge gameplay change since melee is actually a viable alternative to guns.

 

I'll admit, it was a nice change, but buffing weapons shouldn't be considered a major change. Melee weapons got buffs. Woohoo. This is something that was brought up about 6 months ago. The game has had awful melee weapons for the longest time, and it took DE this long just to buff them. The combo counter is nothing special, and the stances are all useless aside from Rule of Cool. This isn't exactly a major change in the way the game is played.

[Grrbacca]

Given DE's history, I'd say you could call them incompetent at best. But that's not what this thread is about. At all.

 

PvP doesn't have to be perfect, but it should at least be reasonable. At the moment, there's zero point to it. I'd rather they remove the current iteration than keep it there as the bastard child of 5 minutes of labor.

If you think they are incompetent, then why are you even playing the game...I know you must have years of experience making games, so you can tell the incompetent devs how easy it is to make a PvP game.  DE had a vision for this game, and PvP was not a part of it, you are lucky that they even put any PvP in it.  They are sticking to what they had planned, and for that I applaud them.