Ability Nerfs/changes: Radial Disarm, Hysteria, Shield Polarize, Tentacle Swarm

[FoxFX]

what I don't understand is that invisibility is fine but you want radial blind to be fixed so that ai can still shoot you. but when invisibility can move about undetected if moded right for about 60 seconds and can not be seen for any distance while radial blind you can still be shot from a distance

I was about to get on about that. Invisibility and Smoke Screen should not reduce the noise of gunfire either.

Edited May 1, 2014 by FoxFX

[Yopee]

Radial Blind

 

The skill's description merely states that its an AOE skill that temporarily removes the enemy's ability to see. With that in mind, it should NOT also render the enemy's ability to hear. Which is one of the reason Noise Reduction Mods and Banshee's Silence are there for, but as of now that is not the case. Radial Blind practically dumbs down the enemies.

 

If I were blinded by something, the first reaction would be to rely on other senses to fight. For that reason, I agree that the enemy AI should be adjusted to show some retaliation when blinded.

Completely agree with you here.

 

 

 

Radial Disarm

Loki is more of a stealth-control oriented frame, which is why his vitality is relatively weaker than Ash's. 

 

Invisibility

Invisibility should be the stealth skill that is used by a solo player.

Completely agree with this as well but that's exactly why I believe the current Invisibility needs to be changed.

Loki is the most fragile frame in terms of shield/health while Ash is tied with Saryn for highest health yet Loki and Ash can pretty much go through any mission without ever being attacked while standing in the enemy's face.

 

I'm fine with going through a mission without being attacked because that's stealth. You can do that even without using Loki/Ash.

 

Not being attacked while standing in the enemy's face is not stealth. This makes Loki's fragility and Ash's high health sort of meaningless because you no longer need to sneak around to avoid being hit. You won't be hit. At all.

The enemy doesn't even notice Loki/Ash if they walk into them. That's beyond being invisible.

 

Which also brings me to the point that I really like your idea for Smoke Screen as a team buff but only if it means the whole team can sneak around easier rather than standing in an enemy's face without being hit at all.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Yopee

[S7ORM]

The one thing I took from this though, was the idea that enemy leaders might have abilities to counter some warframe abilities.
I did really like the idea of SONAR leaders disabling invisibility buffs and some leaders (possibly with aura) being immune to blind/slow.

[Yopee]

Yeah, I like the enemy leader idea too but Nox-Lamina shot it down quite effectively as well by pointing out that in a team, it would be easy to just take down the enemy leader and continue playing as usual.

 

I still think it would work well for playing solo though especially for a stealth run.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Yopee

[holdenagincourt]

Today I learned that Mag's Shield Polarize and Ash's Smoke Screen are more urgent balance priorities than Nova's Molecular Prime or Rhino's overall level of power.

 

Ok.

Edited May 1, 2014 by holdenagincourt

[gnat6]

Today I learned that Mag's Shield Polarize and Ash's Smoke Screen are more urgent balance priorities than Nova's Molecular Prime or Rhino's overall level of power.

 

Ok.

No its more like there is nothing that has not been said about rhino and nova so adding them to the list would be redundant.

[tris1]

Today I learned that Mag's Shield Polarize and Ash's Smoke Screen are more urgent balance priorities than Nova's Molecular Prime or Rhino's overall level of power.

 

Ok.

in what way buff or nerf

[Yopee]

No its more like there is nothing that has not been said about rhino and nova so adding them to the list would be redundant.

Thank you.

 

I wonder when all these Rhino/Nova off topic posts will go away?

 

Just to clear it up, I intend for these ability changes to be a lower priority compared to Rhino/Nova and enemy AI.

I only made this thread because it seemed like nobody else actually pointed out how these abilities can be pushed to their limits to break solo or team play, stealth or run and gun.

 

edit: Just watched the recent livestream. Didn't realize Blessing was being looked at by DE now. Yay!

Edited May 1, 2014 by Yopee

[Cwierz]

I think instead of ability nerfing we could go with AI buffing for most of the things listed here.

 

Exempting a few key things in the game that I actually am visibly going after, I think everything in this game can be made appropriately powerful with attention given to AI.

Anything that needs buffs needs to be a bit more creative, but hopefully DE doesn't let old content submit to powercreep.

Whatever.

[Oleker]

Don't F&¨%$#g touch my Loki. Ò/_\Ó

[XRAY0128]

Thank you.

 

I wonder when all these Rhino/Nova off topic posts will go away?

 

Just to clear it up, I intend for these ability changes to be a lower priority compared to Rhino/Nova and enemy AI.

I only made this thread because it seemed like nobody else actually pointed out how these abilities can be pushed to their limits to break solo or team play, stealth or run and gun.

 

edit: Just watched the recent livestream. Didn't realize Blessing was being looked at by DE now. Yay!

 

I'll tell you why your suggestions are stupid. You are nerfing abilities based on their "maximum potential" which can only be achieved through mods. 

 

Most of the abilities themselves are fine, and only a problem when boosted by certain builds, and most of these builds aren't even accesible outside of serious grinding or luck.

 

On the point of Shield Polarize, I don't even know why you would nerf it. From what I've seen, even on venus, it barely does anything to Corpus, which it is strong against, never mind Grineer or Infested targets. Removing its shield restore effectively renders it useless

[Yopee]

You are nerfing abilities based on their "maximum potential" which can only be achieved through mods. 

 

Most of the abilities themselves are fine, and only a problem when boosted by certain builds, and most of these builds aren't even accesible outside of serious grinding or luck.

Exactly. Nobody would ever nerf an ability (or anything) based on their minimum potential because at minimum potential, it would not take away all difficulty in game.

If something was that strong at minimum potential, then it would not have been allowed by DE's design team (or whoever is responsible) in the first place. Mods are used by us to bring out this potential in everything in warframe.

I have no issue with a build requiring hard to find, pray to RNGesus grind mods.

I do have an issue with builds that remove all difficulty in the game, no matter what mods they use.

 

Just because I have rare mods should not mean that I can remove the difficulty in the game for everyone else in the team that I play with.

And I'm not the only one with these mods. I wasn't the first to come up with any of these builds. I played with others who used all of these builds.

 

My options would be to either:

1. Play solo.

2. Ignore every player using these builds.

3. Suggest changing some game mechanic so that these builds don't completely remove difficulty in the game.

 

I do option 1 all the time. Option 2 is still feasible now since Rhino/Nova/Trinity are currently the popular frames but what about after they have been balanced/changed/nerfed/whatever in the future?

And here I am because of option 3.

Edited May 2, 2014 by Yopee

[fatpig84]

Depending on the map, Decoy may work better. Radial Disarm can interfere with Decoy's effectiveness.

 

That's what I want to see. Melee should still work fine. Also, all of the silent weapon mods are completely useless right now. Banshee's Silence can also be useful here.

 

No RD won't interfere with Decoy.

In fact it makes it much more powerful against disarmed enemies since you can throw the decoy on top of inaccessible locations and funnel the enemy to that location.

This gives Loki synergy which a lot of frames lack.

 

And if you are bringing Loki to infested, an RD loki is just a knock down for chargers.

So don't bother with Loki unless you gonna be invisible all day.

[fatpig84]

Not true at all, he can use it all he wants and use noisy weapons. It does have a 5 second cooldown at max

 

Blinded enemies still respond to sound, And the 5 second stun doesn't do that much in all honesty.

It is his blind that makes him a huge force multiplier. 

 

Blinded ranged enemies can only throw nades or attempt to charge. But since infested only charge that means RB against Infested is pretty much not that great since Toxin ancients can charge you still and do damage.

 

Silent weapons (melee is always silent) leaves them standing there like idiots, which is why I use despair as the main part of my Excal's kit.

Edited May 2, 2014 by fatpig84

[Killerdude8]

 

For real.

 

 

 

Please leave, Don't return, This is such a Toxic thread it makes me sad face so super hard.

[Arunafeltz]

OK well I can't say that I blame the OP for feeling that some abilities make the game too easy, but as many people have said before- the problem comes from the use of Corrupted mods to create highly specialized builds that make said abilities shine.

[Yopee]

No RD won't interfere with Decoy.

In fact it makes it much more powerful against disarmed enemies since you can throw the decoy on top of inaccessible locations and funnel the enemy to that location.

This gives Loki synergy which a lot of frames lack.

 

And if you are bringing Loki to infested, an RD loki is just a knock down for chargers.

So don't bother with Loki unless you gonna be invisible all day.

RD interferes with Decoy if you play on defense. Disarmed/melee enemy AI dictates that a melee enemy will go for the target with highest threat first (Decoy).

If the target is inaccessible, move on to next target of highest threat (cryopod).

Ranged enemies remain hypnotized by the inaccessible Decoy forever.

 

But I definitely agree with the synergy of these abilities if playing solo.

And I really would want RD to be a bit more useful against infested just like Shield Polarize.

 

 

Blinded enemies still respond to sound, And the 5 second stun doesn't do that much in all honesty.

It is his blind that makes him a huge force multiplier. 

 

Blinded ranged enemies can only throw nades or attempt to charge. But since infested only charge that means RB against Infested is pretty much not that great since Toxin ancients can charge you still and do damage.

 

Silent weapons (melee is always silent) leaves them standing there like idiots, which is why I use despair as the main part of my Excal's kit.

The 5 second stun helps a lot with reviving a teammate or hitting life support in survival but yes, the blind makes it a lot stronger because it lasts so much longer.

 

Do keep in mind that even though the infested charge you, they don't actually attack you. They just hang out close to you so only toxic ancient is a danger in that case.

 

My main gripe is this. Not enough enemies respond to sound. Blinded attacks are only from the fusion/corrupted MOAs and the ranged enemy grenades. Could a blind infested charger not feel Excalibur's presence when right next to him?

 

 

Thanks for the comment though. I'm glad someone else here does the inaccessible Decoy thing too rather than just throwing it out into the open to be chewed to bits by the mobs in a second.

Edited May 2, 2014 by Yopee

[fatpig84]

snip

 

But you know you can drop decoys inside boxes amirite ? :P

Because it is not considered inaccessible, enemies will hump the crate that anyone with an Ogris can usually just pick off them easily.

[XRAY0128]

Exactly. Nobody would ever nerf an ability (or anything) based on their minimum potential because at minimum potential, it would not take away all difficulty in game.

If something was that strong at minimum potential, then it would not have been allowed by DE's design team (or whoever is responsible) in the first place. Mods are used by us to bring out this potential in everything in warframe.

I have no issue with a build requiring hard to find, pray to RNGesus grind mods.

I do have an issue with builds that remove all difficulty in the game, no matter what mods they use.

 

Just because I have rare mods should not mean that I can remove the difficulty in the game for everyone else in the team that I play with.

And I'm not the only one with these mods. I wasn't the first to come up with any of these builds. I played with others who used all of these builds.

 

My options would be to either:

1. Play solo.

2. Ignore every player using these builds.

3. Suggest changing some game mechanic so that these builds don't completely remove difficulty in the game.

 

I do option 1 all the time. Option 2 is still feasible now since Rhino/Nova/Trinity are currently the popular frames but what about after they have been balanced/changed/nerfed/whatever in the future?

And here I am because of option 3.

 

Then the smart thing to do would be to NERF THE MODS THAT MAKE THEM BROKEN, not the abilities themselves

[Yopee]

But you know you can drop decoys inside boxes amirite ? :P

Because it is not considered inaccessible, enemies will hump the crate that anyone with an Ogris can usually just pick off them easily.

That is true but again, not every defense mission will have one such box nearby.

Definitely works for all other game modes though.

 

Any ideas for buffing RD? Would really want to hear any ideas from a Loki expert.

[Yopee]

Then the smart thing to do would be to NERF THE MODS THAT MAKE THEM BROKEN, not the abilities themselves

I considered that too but not every ability can be modded to become broken like the list in my OP which leads me to believe it's not completely the corrupted mods' fault for these abilities becoming broken.

 

The way I see it right now is that there are 3 factors involved:

1. Ability - what power stats (power efficiency/strength/range/duration) affect it? All four or just power eff?

2. Corrupted mods - which power stats does it affect? Does this hinder the ability?

3. Enemy - is the ability effective against all factions/melee vs range? Is the enemy AI able to cope with the new form of combat caused by the ability?

 

Nerfing corrupted mods may also nerf builds using other abilities that are not currently broken.

 

In all honesty, I would love enemy AI buff the most but some corrupted mod ability builds straight up kill the enemies before they have a chance to fight back (Shield Polarize) while some are only dependent on the frame (Energy Vampire, Blessing, Hysteria).

Edited May 2, 2014 by Yopee

[XRAY0128]

I considered that too but not every ability can be modded to become broken like the list in my OP which leads me to believe it's not completely the corrupted mods' fault for these abilities becoming broken.

 

The way I see it right now is that there are 3 factors involved:

1. Ability - what power stats (power efficiency/strength/range/duration) affect it? All four or just power eff?

2. Corrupted mods - which power stats does it affect? Does this hinder the ability?

3. Enemy - is the ability effective against all factions/melee vs range? Is the enemy AI able to cope with the new form of combat caused by the ability?

 

Nerfing corrupted mods may also nerf builds using other abilities that are not currently broken.

 

In all honesty, I would love enemy AI buff the most but some corrupted mod ability builds straight up kill the enemies before they have a chance to fight back (Shield Polarize) while some are only dependent on the frame (Energy Vampire, Blessing, Hysteria).

 

So instead, nerf the abilities, even though you previously said, at minimum level, they arent bad, thus resulting in them being useless at minimum level. Good idea... 

 

I bet having frames with even more useless abilities will improve the new player experience greatly.

 

Its like balancing Final Fantasy assuming that players will always be Level 99

Edited May 2, 2014 by XRAY0128

[sneakatone]

nope you wasted your time writing all of this

[Thirsty_Pickle]

So you want the abilities that make a particular frame useful nerfed so that they become useless crapframes that nobody plays?

 

Bravo.

[Tsukinoki]

@Thirsty_Pickle
That does seem to be the OPs goal.

He doesn't want to balance the frames, just ruin random frames that he doesn't seem to like for no reason in particular.

He complains "These frames are one trick ponies!" but does NOTHING to fix that other than nerf the one trick they have.  Which turns them into useless no trick ponies that no one will ever use.

He should have found ways to buff the rest of their kit.  That way they would no longer be one trick ponies.  Then they could nerf any "op" abilities they have (which, out of the frames he listed is none of them).