My Take On The "new Direction" Of Stealth

[Vitras]

I'm not sure if the new rooms in the rescue missions are going to be what Stealth 2.0 will be all about, with more corners, cliffs, more than one route, but if that is what it will be this is my opinion.

 

This earlier post basically sums up my feelings which I will explain more:

 

"I actually got a bit mad when I played Rescue 2.0 for the first time. They were saying how you'll have to stealth for the mission, but the thing is...what the hell is stealth in this game? Killing the enemy before they see you and hope the enemy doesn't notice? This game is still too much like a shooter to be said we're ninjas. I want some AC spice in this game."

 

"They were saying how you'll have to stealth for the mission, but the thing is...what the hell is stealth in this game?"

Really, I didn't know there was anything that could actually be considered stealth besides crouching around a corner or Loki's/Ash's invisibility. But apparently other people have found it, as I've heard. Pretty sure that's not true, as I move on to the next part.

 

"Killing the enemy before they see you and hope the enemy doesn't notice?"

Sadly, this is what most people consider stealth in the game, which isn't true unless you really want to skew it that much. There isn't any part of this game where I feel stealthy when all I'm doing is sitting maybe 10 yards away from an enemy crouched in the wide open and shooting them with a bow. Others say this is stealth; that upsets me.

 

"This game is still too much like a shooter to be said we're ninjas."

This is the most truth about this game that I can be put in one sentence. It's so much easier to shoot an enemy to achieve "stealth" then to come up behind and stab them, especially if there are other enemies around. I just don't feel the ninja aspect this game except for its looks.

 

"I want some AC spice in this game."

What I mean by adding some Assassin's Creed, is to add more interactions with the environment for stealth instead of putting a crate there and calling it good. To better that, make the crate so you can crawl inside and hide. Or have platforms which only we can reach by wallrunning up and stake out the place. Another thing from AC I would love to be added is to "tease" enemies to you when you are hiding. Like when you are in a hay stack and "whistle" to fool the guard to come over and investigate so you can pull him in and stab.

 

I really don't want to have to rely on crouching around a corner or shooting enemies from 10 yards with an Ogris. I want stealth that feels genuine.

 

I know the new stealth isn't going to be exactly like how they are in the new rescue rooms. I know it's basically a kind of prototype. But it's the concept/precedent that I don't like. Changing the rooms instead of the mechanics isn't the way I'd like the way for stealth to go.

 

Now, come forth with your criticism. Flame on!

 

~Vitras

Edited May 3, 2014 by Vitras

[Pandoran_Stallion]

I really have no arguments with this. A ventilation/cover system would be great for Warframe stealth.

Edited May 3, 2014 by UpgradeInProgress

[7grims]

Just don't start assuming there's any stealth 1.0 in this game, cause many ppl already bought that.

Edited May 3, 2014 by 7grims

[Syzodia]

Now, come forth with your criticism. Flame on!

 

~Vitras

It's funny because your picture indicates you're a frost prime.

 

I agree with all that you've said, but........killing before notification is still stealth to me.

[Vitras]

 

Just don't start assuming there's any stealth 1.0 in this game, cause many ppl already bought that.

It's difficult to argue with that. 

 

It's funny because your picture indicates you're a frost prime.

 

I agree with all that you've said, but........killing before notification is still stealth to me.

I keep my cool in the heat.

 

And I would agree with you, although it's more like you kill them without notice...when there's another one not 3 feet from the one just killed and you used a gun that has a silencer mod slapped on. But besides that, it's not the technicality of what stealth is that I really have a problem with. It's that it doesn't feel at all like ninja stealth, which is one of the most respectful types stealth there is.

Edited May 3, 2014 by Vitras

[OptimumBow0]

You can't find the stealth?

 

Me neither. Guess it's hiding too darn well.

 

Jokes aside, I still have hope that DE will someday add some real stealth, and I like your suggestions. Edit: We may actually need AI 2.0 before Stealth 2.0 now that I think about it.

Edited May 3, 2014 by OptimumBow0

[Vitras]

You can't find the stealth?

 

Me neither. Guess it's hiding too darn well.

 

Jokes aside, I still have hope that DE will someday add some real stealth, and I like your suggestions. Edit: We may actually need AI 2.0 before Stealth 2.0 now that I think about it.

Good one chap.

 

That's quite a good point. I keep going back to AC whenever I think of how stealth in Warframe could be made better. So much about the hiding and the assassinating was done right in those games. Except for the part they don't let you crouch. That I don't get.

[Syzodia]

 It's that it doesn't feel at all like ninja stealth, which is one of the most respectful types stealth there is.

 

It'll only feel like ninja stealth if you actually attempt ninja stealth.

Just using an ogris casually for stealth purposes would still be stealth in-game, but obviously ain't ninja.

 

But that's the combat side - parkour is still in need of improvement (and environmental navigation/interaction)

[Vitras]

It'll only feel like ninja stealth if you actually attempt ninja stealth.

Just using an ogris casually for stealth purposes would still be stealth in-game, but obviously ain't ninja.

 

But that's the combat side - parkour is still in need of improvement (and environmental navigation/interaction)

That's kind of my point. In this game you can achieve stealth by shooting a gun way easier than with a sword or anything else. And it's ridiculous if you try stalking around corners waiting for enemies without them seeing you when you're too close in front of them.

 

And true, the environmental part is something that I had brought up as a solution.

[Syzodia]

That's kind of my point. In this game you can achieve stealth by shooting a gun way easier than with a sword or anything else. And it's ridiculous if you try stalking around corners waiting for enemies without them seeing you when you're too close in front of them.

Well, if you think of bows and sniper rifles and the like, that would make sense, right?

 

I still stalk around corners because stealth attacks feel awesome

[OblivionNecroninja]

Honestly, I agree. The way the game is set up right now doesn't facilitate proper stealth. We'd need more complex levels with multiple paths, and that just doesn't work with the Warframe's 'procedurally slap tiles together' level generation.

[neKroMancer]

The problem with stealth concept is the fact that there should be a way to avoid combat entirely, not just killing everything silently.

 

Warframe's basic design doesn't support stealth in the slightest, imo. Stealth games are designed with stealth first with multiple ways to avoid or silently dispose and distract the enemies, including a non-lethal way to do so. Metal gear Solid and Splinter Cell are two good examples of this genre for 3D game. They offer choices to achieve objectives unseen and unheard using detection mechanics like smell, sound, and sight combined multiple routes.

 

Warframe, on the other hand, doesn't have that kind of mechanic. We have multiple routes into the Red Veil holding cell but we don't know what kind of senses the enemy used to detect us. Many missions that I tried to stealth through it failed simply because the AI in the next room aware of me without actually been alerted. Moreover, stealth attack doesn't kill/disable the target in one hit which makes it looks ridiculous when you have to slit the target's throat for a second time.

 

However, I think Specter of Liberty is particularly well-made in Warframe's standard. The holding cell has separate system and AI that vulnerable to stealth attack plus additional paths in and out of the holding cell without sounding any alarm.

[Vitras]

The problem with stealth concept is the fact that there should be a way to avoid combat entirely, not just killing everything silently.

 

Warframe's basic design doesn't support stealth in the slightest, imo. Stealth games are designed with stealth first with multiple ways to avoid or silently dispose and distract the enemies, including a non-lethal way to do so. Metal gear Solid and Splinter Cell are two good examples of this genre for 3D game. They offer choices to achieve objectives unseen and unheard using detection mechanics like smell, sound, and sight combined multiple routes.

 

Warframe, on the other hand, doesn't have that kind of mechanic. We have multiple routes into the Red Veil holding cell but we don't know what kind of senses the enemy used to detect us. Many missions that I tried to stealth through it failed simply because the AI in the next room aware of me without actually been alerted. Moreover, stealth attack doesn't kill/disable the target in one hit which makes it looks ridiculous when you have to slit the target's throat for a second time.

 

However, I think Specter of Liberty is particularly well-made in Warframe's standard. The holding cell has separate system and AI that vulnerable to stealth attack plus additional paths in and out of the holding cell without sounding any alarm.

You said it better than I did. Well done.

[Drejzer]

Yea... trying to cut off head twice in a row to the same enemy feels quite weird... Or when two enemies are standing in front of each other and you "stealth" kill one of those (pin him to the wall with an arrow) and the other one don't notice THAT.

[XRAY0128]

Pfft, Obviously, Grineer have so much armor, that you have to break their necks twice to kill them. 

 

I also love it when you kill one of the guys apparently having a conversation and the other doesn't notice.. 

 

Bonus points if he screams bloody murder when he dies...

[Guest Tehnoobshow]

More assassination options would be great too. For example, you should be able to stealth kill an enemy while you are in the air or pull an enemy off a ledge.

Edited May 3, 2014 by Tehnoobshow

[LGear]

 Changing the rooms instead of the mechanics isn't the way I'd like the way for stealth to go.

 

 

Changing the rooms though is the first step to having a viable stealth system though. The secret of many stealth games when it comes to being able to sneak around undetected is that you have a large number of options on how to approach a particular location, whether it be through a broken window, shimmying from a pipe, or finding hidden tunnels and vents. The front door is the most obvious approach, but having large rooms with lots of alternate paths and cover makes stealth gameplay possible, without sacrificing the ability to simply gun it. In fact, rooms built for stealth gameplay are also nicely suited to noisy gunplay, which means everyone wins. One of Warframe's major problems against Stealthy gameplay is the fact that so many of the map tiles and connecting tiles are narrow corridors or large spaces funneling into small ones, which means limited options to avoid the masses of patrolling enemies.

 

With that, changing the rooms for Rescue 2.0 is pretty much a first step in the right direction, and I applaud DE's efforts to actually provide maps that support stealthy gameplay via having hidden tunnels and raised catwalks that provide alternate routes to the objective while hiding you from enemy sight. If every map tile in the game had the path complexity of the Prison Complex tiles, then Warframe would be a step closer to making stealth a truly viable gameplay option.

 

Obviously Stealth requires more than just map changes though, and would require stuff like better AI programming and behaviors that support stealthy gameplay, not to mention the addition of tools like threat and detection indicators. But they are progressing in a very nice direction for Stealth gameplay in Warframe, which I very much like.

 

Also, as proof that Stealth does in fact work in Rescue 2.0:

 

Edited May 4, 2014 by LGear

[Pendragon1951]

IMHO I think what they are trying to do is keep the play balance in the sense of giving a option to play stealth in one area rather than the whole area, because if they did the whole area that you had to be stealthy I think it would take too long for each mission. For me I like it this way, I know it makes no sense to be able to blast your way to the Prison compound without alerting the wardens, but I have come to the conclusion Warframe has it's own type of logic.

[Koloricsi]

Just don't start assuming there's any stealth 1.0 in this game, cause many ppl already bought that.

I lol'd :D

[LGear]

IMHO I think what they are trying to do is keep the play balance in the sense of giving a option to play stealth in one area rather than the whole area, because if they did the whole area that you had to be stealthy I think it would take too long for each mission. For me I like it this way, I know it makes no sense to be able to blast your way to the Prison compound without alerting the wardens, but I have come to the conclusion Warframe has it's own type of logic.

 

That's only the case now because the rest of the map tiles don't really support stealthy play all that well. I think there was a DE post recently where they recognized the problem and thus implemented the Prison Complex as it is so that it supported stealth gameplay, including having a more rigid spawn and patrol system for that map tile alone.

[Quiet_Time1]

 

This might explain why Warframe, a game about space ninjas killing everything has some....not so great stealth sections

 

Edited May 4, 2014 by Amethyst.zero

[Methanoid]

stealth for rescue missions just means using loki/ash, run past everything until the locked door before the wardens, enter wardens room, take a left, go up the stairs to 1st warden, kill him with silent wpn or any wpn with hush mod, jump over the gap on top of the clear dome/glass corridor, kill the other warden, then move to the end of the walkway and kill the last warden in the middle, destroy camera's etc.

 

Rescue prisoner then bolt it to the extraction, if theres stuff to kill do so, if not or not much is around just copter past everything and extract, hostage doesnt need to be at extraction only you.  its easier to solo the whole thing rather than team play by a massive margin.

[PookieNumnums]

i cant see true stealth happening in anything other than a specific stealth game mode, where enemies have reduced visual range...

 

reason is, in anything that isnt exterminate, enemies can come from anywhere. so even if youre hiding behind something, an enemy can spawn somewhere youve already cleared, come up behind you like 'BROH! *rataatatatta* and alert your unsuspecting victim.

 

we need some sort of lure trap, like tossing rocks or credits out to bait enemies.  we need more dedicated stealth kill mechanics. maybe less animation / more dmg. so we can chain stealth kills on minimobs instead of killing one guy and being seen by two more... or NOT killing him, but only alerting him to your presence with the attempted stealth kill

[Vitras]

i cant see true stealth happening in anything other than a specific stealth game mode, where enemies have reduced visual range...

 

reason is, in anything that isnt exterminate, enemies can come from anywhere. so even if youre hiding behind something, an enemy can spawn somewhere youve already cleared, come up behind you like 'BROH! *rataatatatta* and alert your unsuspecting victim.

 

we need some sort of lure trap, like tossing rocks or credits out to bait enemies.  we need more dedicated stealth kill mechanics. maybe less animation / more dmg. so we can chain stealth kills on minimobs instead of killing one guy and being seen by two more... or NOT killing him, but only alerting him to your presence with the attempted stealth kill

Yeah, I think we have the same mindset here...

 

' "I want some AC spice in this game."

What I mean by adding some Assassin's Creed, is to add more interactions with the environment for stealth instead of putting a crate there and calling it good. To better that, make the crate so you can crawl inside and hide. Or have platforms which only we can reach by wallrunning up and stake out the place. Another thing from AC I would love to be added is to "tease" enemies to you when you are hiding. Like when you are in a hay stack and "whistle" to fool the guard to come over and investigate so you can pull him in and stab. '

 

Also, another thing that could be added (once again taken from AC) is a progressive type of alert, where enemies take time realizing it's a Tenno instead of right away.