Why Fleeting Expertise Needs To Be Changed

[(PSN)Bobtm0]

Can't quote people, so I'll just say stuff.

 

The whole balancing idea behind why FE is a minus to duration seems to have slipped past some people it would seem.  Since you have a 1-1 ratio of a loss in both cost and duration, it's a way to more or less allow more freedom of use in total number of deployments while actively reducing uptime by half-ish.  Combining this with Streamline then puts you in a positive place in terms of "true efficiency" for all duration timed powers.

 

Inherently, FE is perfectly balanced in and of itself at its current state, it's an absolute "lasts half and costs half" equation.  There are 1s that are not effected by duration that are fine as is, seeing as they provide benefit of little to moderate effect, the same can be said of many 2s and 3s.  However when the 4s aren't effected, an issue arises.

 

Tweaking and modifying the base duration of skills in question as well as applying duration modifiers to ones that by all means deserve it would retain the current equation and require less screwing up of the current balancing of Corrupted mods.  Possibly modifying the values of the corrupt mods themselves is another solution that doesn't basically break everything.

[RealPandemonium]

Can't quote people, so I'll just say stuff.

 

The whole balancing idea behind why FE is a minus to duration seems to have slipped past some people it would seem.  Since you have a 1-1 ratio of a loss in both cost and duration, it's a way to more or less allow more freedom of use in total number of deployments while actively reducing uptime by half-ish.  Combining this with Streamline then puts you in a positive place in terms of "true efficiency" for all duration timed powers.

 

Inherently, FE is perfectly balanced in and of itself at its current state, it's an absolute "lasts half and costs half" equation.  There are 1s that are not effected by duration that are fine as is, seeing as they provide benefit of little to moderate effect, the same can be said of many 2s and 3s.  However when the 4s aren't effected, an issue arises.

 

Tweaking and modifying the base duration of skills in question as well as applying duration modifiers to ones that by all means deserve it would retain the current equation and require less screwing up of the current balancing of Corrupted mods.  Possibly modifying the values of the corrupt mods themselves is another solution that doesn't basically break everything.

You are correct in your analysis but the fact that virtually every build includes two efficiency mods means that their effective purpose is to hog slots.  They might as well just remove FE, Streamline and Energy Siphon from the equation by natively providing both benefits in a controlled manner.

Edited May 11, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[(PSN)Bobtm0]

I completely agree with you on that point RealPandemonium, however I could see myself becoming the king of the cactus-folk before that would happen.  The game's current trend is to have nearly everything in terms of ability characteristics locked up in mods.  Same exact thing is present on weapons with Damage and Multishot mods which, outside of purposeful self-nerfing or from non attainment, are always on everything (Sans multi-shot on Castanas/Penta).

 

Having that trend go by the wayside and potentially allowing for greater real build diversity would be nothing short of amazing.

[taiiat]

If you're campaigning for zero exploitation you're going to have to broaden your scope to include all other corrupted mods.

i absolutely know. the more threads that discuss about this or that Mod and Power, the more insight i have for one day where i compile it all into a thread. hopefully 'fixing' all of the problems at once.

[Cwierz]

Why not have FE slow cast speed instead of shorten duration?

Make every other corrupted mod remove efficiency.

This removes all possible exploits if DE would fix cast speed on a select few cases.

[BloodArmoredApostle]

I think cooldowns would better reduce the spammability of abilities than changing the effects of Fleeting Expertise.

There would be a flaw in trying to prevent spammability of abilities. Customization.

[Azamagon]

TL;DR:

Power efficiency does not do what the numbers are telling you, but the other powermods do:

* Intensify. Increases strength by 30% (1.3x). You get 30% more power for each cast, as stated.

* Continuity. Increases duration by 30% (1.3x). You get 30% more duration for each cast, as stated.

* Stretch. Increases range by 45% (1.45x). You get 45% more range for each cast, as stated.

* Modding for the power efficiency hardcap at 75% however, does NOT give you 75% more casts. That grants you 300% more casts!

 

Thorough explanation:

The reason FE (in particular when combined with Streamline) is overpowered is simply because the power efficiency formula is wrong. As was said in the TL;DR, Intensify, Continuity and Stretch all do what they state they do.

 

But power efficiency mods don't.

 

Take Streamline. Increases power efficiency by 30%. That means it SHOULD give you 30% more casts, but it doesn't.

If it gave you 30% more casts, it would've kept its old formula (Powercost / (1 + (Efficiency/100))). It should be reducing the cost of an ultimate to something like this:

100 / 1,3 = 76,92 energycost

 

But the currrent formula that got implemented (due to math-idiots complaining on the forums) does this to an ultimate with Streamline:

100 * 0,7 = 70 energycost

 

This means you are not getting 30% more casts. You are getting 42,85% more casts ((100 / 70) - 1).

 

This was more or less ok when ONLY Streamline existed. With Fleeting Expertise added however, this newer formula (due to being an exponential one) is completely out of hand!

What Fleeting Expertise with the old formula would've done to an ultimate:

100 / 1,6 = 62,5 energycost. This grants 60% more casts.

 

But the new, current formula using Fleeting Expertise does this to an ultimate:

100 * 0,4 = 40 energycost

 

This means you are getting 150% more casts! ((100 / 40) - 1)

 

However, since the formula is exponential, it also means combining Streamline and Fleeting Expertise is INSANELY powerful! So strong that a hardcap on efficiency was necessary!

At the hardcap (75%), this is what they do together to an ultimate:

100 * 0,25 = 25 energycost

 

This means you actually get 300% more casts!!! ((100 / 25) - 1)

 

With the old formula, the balanced one, this is what a maxed Streamline (30%) and a maxed Fleeting Expertise (60%) would've done to an ultimate:

100 / (1,9) = 52,63 energycost. This is 90% more casts, as a maxed Streamline+Fleeting Expertise SHOULD be giving you.

 

So, if you read the spoiler, what needs changing is ONLY reverting back the power efficiency formula to what it used to be.

Edited May 11, 2014 by Azamagon

[sanj66]

TL;DR:

Power efficiency does not do what the numbers are telling you, but the other powermods do:

* Intensify. Increases strength by 30% (1.3x). You get 30% more power for each cast, as stated.

* Continuity. Increases duration by 30% (1.3x). You get 30% more duration for each cast, as stated.

* Stretch. Increases range by 45% (1.45x). You get 45% more range for each cast, as stated.

* Modding for the power efficiency hardcap at 75% however, does NOT give you 75% more casts. That grants you 300% more casts!

 

Thorough explanation:

The reason FE (in particular when combined with Streamline) is overpowered is simply because the power efficiency formula is wrong. As was said in the TL;DR, Intensify, Continuity and Stretch all do what they state they do.

 

But power efficiency mods don't.

 

Take Streamline. Increases power efficiency by 30%. That means it SHOULD give you 30% more casts, but it doesn't.

If it gave you 30% more casts, it would've kept its old formula (Powercost / (1 + (Efficiency/100))). It should be reducing the cost of an ultimate to something like this:

100 / 1,3 = 76,92 energycost

 

But the currrent formula that got implemented (due to math-idiots complaining on the forums) does this to an ultimate with Streamline:

100 * 0,7 = 70 energycost

 

This means you are not getting 30% more casts. You are getting 42,85% more casts ((100 / 70) - 1).

 

This was more or less ok when ONLY Streamline existed. With Fleeting Expertise added however, this newer formula (due to being an exponential one) is completely out of hand!

What Fleeting Expertise with the old formula would've done to an ultimate:

100 / 1,6 = 62,5 energycost. This grants 60% more casts.

 

But the new, current formula using Fleeting Expertise does this to an ultimate:

100 * 0,4 = 40 energycost

 

This means you are getting 150% more casts! ((100 / 40) - 1)

 

However, since the formula is exponential, it also means combining Streamline and Fleeting Expertise is INSANELY powerful! So strong that a hardcap on efficiency was necessary!

At the hardcap (75%), this is what they do together to an ultimate:

100 * 0,25 = 25 energycost

 

This means you actually get 300% more casts!!! ((100 / 25) - 1)

 

With the old formula, the balanced one, this is what a maxed Streamline (30%) and a maxed Fleeting Expertise (60%) would've done to an ultimate:

100 / (1,9) = 52,63 energycost. This is 90% more casts, as a maxed Streamline+Fleeting Expertise SHOULD be giving you.

 

So, if you read the spoiler, what needs changing is ONLY reverting back the power efficiency formula to what it used to be.

i read the spoiler but the formula you used does not represent an efficiency of 30%, 30% efficiency and 30% more cast are 2 different things, the efficiency is based on per skill cast cost, 30% more casts would need to be calculated based on cost per skill and energy pool, the actual english of it doesnt add up to the calculations you used, it could be typographical but it matches the effect as is, the previous equation is not what 30% efficiency means or equates to and the "math idiots" were correct in it didnt match the description.

[SquirmyBurrito]

your version of FE renders narrow minded pointless so your swapping out NM for OE, its a direct change so its not an extra slot used, you dont have to use a maxed nu-FE so you wont end at 24.8m, plus you still have the slot wherei put vigor in you can put stretch, put OE in the polarized slot and stretch in a non polarized slot, you still end up at over 30+m, even without it the point being all of loki's skill are still at + values, there is no negative or downside, he operates above base on all skills.

 

No, it doesn't. Narrow Minded's debuff would be changed (I already said the rest of the corrupted mods play 'musical debuff'). It's really not that hard to understand. No, not really. If you still want the 75% power efficiency and you're dead set on using Swindle, then you're going to need that nu-FE to be at least one from the top and you're going to need a streamline equipped. To keep the range you're going to need a full Overextended and a stretch, that plus Swindle brings your range to about 39m. Your invisibility will last 12 seconds. A current RD build can achieve 50Ms and 6 seconds for invisibility before duration mods and 13 seconds with a continuity and constitution all while maintaining your luscious 50m range on RD. Nu-FE wouldn't allow this.

 

And look at that, all values are in the positive AKA no negative or downsides, he operates about base on all skills.

 

Now, if you're done discussing Loki with me can we get to the part where you attempt to actually counter my proposed change? Please do not tell me that you've been bringing up Loki (one frame) this entire time in an attempt to make my proposal look bad... Because if that was your aim, you failed miserably.

 

i absolutely know. the more threads that discuss about this or that Mod and Power, the more insight i have for one day where i compile it all into a thread. hopefully 'fixing' all of the problems at once.

 

I wish you luck. You're going to need it given how this community is when it comes to anyone suggesting that a liked feature is unbalanced and needs to be changed.

 

Why not have FE slow cast speed instead of shorten duration?

Make every other corrupted mod remove efficiency.

This removes all possible exploits if DE would fix cast speed on a select few cases.

 

Slowing down cast speed by too much makes the mod's downside too much to be considered usable in most situations. Not slowing it down enough makes it exploitable. The problem with this is that different abilities have different cast speeds. What seems good and balanced for Vauban, might not be balanced for Nekros.

[sanj66]

No, it doesn't. Narrow Minded's debuff would be changed (I already said the rest of the corrupted mods play 'musical debuff'). It's really not that hard to understand. No, not really. If you still want the 75% power efficiency and you're dead set on using Swindle, then you're going to need that nu-FE to be at least one from the top and you're going to need a streamline equipped. To keep the range you're going to need a full Overextended and a stretch, that plus Swindle brings your range to about 39m. Your invisibility will last 12 seconds. A current RD build can achieve 50Ms and 6 seconds for invisibility before duration mods and 13 seconds with a continuity and constitution all while maintaining your luscious 50m range on RD. Nu-FE wouldn't allow this.

 

And look at that, all values are in the positive AKA no negative or downsides, he operates about base on all skills.

 

Now, if you're done discussing Loki with me can we get to the part where you attempt to actually counter my proposed change? Please do not tell me that you've been bringing up Loki (one frame) this entire time in an attempt to make my proposal look bad... Because if that was your aim, you failed miserably.

 

 

I wish you luck. You're going to need it given how this community is when it comes to anyone suggesting that a liked feature is unbalanced and needs to be changed.

 

 

Slowing down cast speed by too much makes the mod's downside too much to be considered usable in most situations. Not slowing it down enough makes it exploitable. The problem with this is that different abilities have different cast speeds. What seems good and balanced for Vauban, might not be balanced for Nekros.

max streamline, 2 from the top FE, max overextended, stretch, continuity, those alone give you:

70% efficiency, 95% range. 30% duration.

where is the down side? your rd will be 39-40m, the point of corupt builds is to have a downside, its a choice build, you sacrifice one for the other, yet here is no downside and these returns are great, even the best attainable by any frame, and guess what because of the mods and stats for a build like this you need no forma. 

39m range on rd at 30 energy, 15 energy to cast invis lasting 15.6 sec, the corrupted build having no downside, every skill is operating at a + % better than max base and other than just saying that its not like a minor %. the point of a corrupted build is for a player to make a choice, this has no choice as you augment every skill positively. like i told you, you must consider the actual effect on frames and skills and no the statistic that it affects each frame you MUST look at HOW it affects them. also you have to take every skill and frame into consideration to juggle each -ve effect, the same way you cant rely on just raw statistical data. to add its rather coincidental that the frame that gets no downside is your main, yes other frames would be similar, trinity, nyx etc but loki stands out as the one being the best to benefit out of all this.

 

though i do agree with you on the cast speeds as there are already frames where you basically need natural talent, making it -ve cast speed would just create that problem all over again.

Edited May 11, 2014 by sanj66

[SquirmyBurrito]

max streamline, 2 from the top FE, max overextended, stretch, continuity, those alone give you:

70% efficiency, 95% range. 30% duration.

where is the down side? your rd will be 39-40m, the point of corupt builds is to have a downside, its a choice build, you sacrifice one for the other, yet here is no downside and these returns are great, even the best attainable by any frame, and guess what because of the mods and stats for a build like this you need no forma. 

39m range on rd at 30 energy, 15 energy to cast invis lasting 15.6 sec, the corrupted build having no downside, every skill is operating at a + % better than max base and other than just saying that its not like a minor %. the point of a corrupted build is for a player to make a choice, this has no choice as you augment every skill positively. like i told you, you must consider the actual effect on frames and skills and no the statistic that it affects each frame you MUST look at HOW it affects them. also you have to take every skill and frame into consideration to juggle each -ve effect, the same way you cant rely on just raw statistical data. to add its rather coincidental that the frame that gets no downside is your main, yes other frames would be similar, trinity, nyx etc but loki stands out as the one being the best to benefit out of all this.

 

though i do agree with you on the cast speeds as there are already frames where you basically need natural talent, making it -ve cast speed would just create that problem all over again.

 

The first bit I 'd is the same irrelevant stuff you've been repeating for a while now. Did you not see this: 

 

"A current RD build can achieve 50Ms and 6 seconds for invisibility before duration mods and 13 seconds with a continuity and constitution all while maintaining your luscious 50m range on RD. Nu-FE wouldn't allow this."

 

Being better than base is not inherently a problem nor is it guaranteed with ANY corrupted build where you are adding in mods to counter it's downside. WTH are you even arguing anymore? That adding a second corrupted mod can counter the negative of the first? 

 

The point of corrupted mods was to grant great power at a great/moderate price. This SHOULD force players to choose. Current FE really fails to do that in most cases. There are few frames that won't benefit from having FE and Streamline slotted. 

 

The underlined bit- No, my stats are perfectly fine and reliable. If you want to claim that they aren't useable in this then you must prove it. I am NOT going to go through all 76 abilities and see how much they are affected by -duration vs -range. If you think it is relevant YOU do the work, I am not your slave nor is it my job to prove/disprove your unsubstantiated claims.

 

The second thing I 'd was your thinly veiled ad hominem. Keep that s*** to yourself. I do not take kindly to people trying to devalue my posts by implying that I have an ulterior motive ESPECIALLY when you have no proof. Loki benefits more from current FE than Nu-FE. I have already proven this several times. 

 

If you can not come up with something to counter my proposal and instead insist on using ad hominems and arguing Loki with me I will simply ignore you. You are contributing NOTHING constructive to this thread anymore. You seem to be disagreeing just to disagree.

[Cwierz]

 

 

Slowing down cast speed by too much makes the mod's downside too much to be considered usable in most situations. Not slowing it down enough makes it exploitable. The problem with this is that different abilities have different cast speeds. What seems good and balanced for Vauban, might not be balanced for Nekros.

Then perhaps people will actually have to make a choice about whether to use that mod or not instead of it being an "instapick" as it were. The problem with instapicks in corrupted mods is that if it doesn't affect a frame at all, then you get problems. But as long as there IS a noticeable affect its a lot less of a problem.

Casting speed affects nearly every frame equally exempting vauban (which can be fixed). Anybody who likes fast gameplay will now have to choose if the lower cost is worth the clunkiness.

[taiiat]

Why not have FE slow cast speed

hm... that would be interesting.

 

Casting Speed would be an interesting stat to start integrating with these Mods.

i hadn't thought of that, but i'll keep it in mind now for the future.

[SquirmyBurrito]

Then perhaps people will actually have to make a choice about whether to use that mod or not instead of it being an "instapick" as it were. The problem with instapicks in corrupted mods is that if it doesn't affect a frame at all, then you get problems. But as long as there IS a noticeable affect its a lot less of a problem.

Casting speed affects nearly every frame equally exempting vauban (which can be fixed). Anybody who likes fast gameplay will now have to choose if the lower cost is worth the clunkiness.

 

See, the problem is that it would become a frame specific choice. Are you using Nekros? Then do not use FE because your animations are already super long. Are you using a speed build on Volt? FE is an insta-pick. Cast speed is NOT something that all frames would be affected by equally. Each power has its own cast speed. The fast ones can take the hit to their speed, the slow ones can not. FE in its current state (on builds were it isn't exploitable) the upside is good enough to justify the hit to your duration (Ash being an example). A casting speed debuff of too much suddenly eliminates an ability's use in anything but the slowest (preemptive) gameplay. To make this work DE would need to go through and tweak its effects for EVERY ability.

[(PSN)Bobtm0]

Since I'm bored I'm gonna do something stupid while blaming it on the Nikana research still being a few solid minutes out till it'll be purchasable for me;  I'm honestly against your suggested change of having FE go from -Duration to -Range.  From my standpoint it's just inherently flawed, but that's something that's been over and discussed so instead I'm just gonna go on a lengthy breakdown on how much so things are changed by said change on a frame by frame and power by power basis.  For the record, I already definitely agree that the change would cause a greater negative effect across all frames, but overall I feel that the change in and of itself is flawed in basis.  Since not everyone has every frame, this post'll help people get a bit more of a grasp on what all would potentially occur.

 

I'm going to attempt to use spoiler tags... even though I'm not sure if they work the same on this forum as they did on the others I've been on.  I'm also going to do my absolute best to try and look at each individually and make a judgement upon which negative would provide a harsher effect upon that frame.  Any skill proceeded by an asterisk is one that I have little to no knowledge of due to simply not using it much at all.  If anyone has something to add and clarify on such skills I'll gladly edit the list to note the correct impact of each negative.

 

Excalibur

Slash Dash: -Duration causes a loss in distance traveled

-Range causes a loss in horizontal striking width along the path traveled

 

Radial Blind: -Duration causes a loss in the blinding effect's duration

-Range causes a loss in range

 

Super Jump: -Duration has no drawback

-Range has no drawback

 

*Radial Javelin: -Duration has no drawbacks.

-Range interferes with targeting range?

On ol' Excal I feel that a hit to duration and range are nearly equal in terms of drawbacks.  Overall I would give the slight edge to -Duration in terms of negatives as per the way each minus effects his 1s prowess as a mobility tool.

 

Loki

Decoy: -Duration means your decoy will last for a shorter period

-Range means your effective choices in decoy placement are more limited at any given moment

 

Invisibility: -Duration is self explainitory

-Range has no drawbacks

 

Switch Teleport: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range limits your effective targeting range

 

Radial Disarm: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range decreases enemies disarmed per cast by proxy

With Loki I feel that a -Range is overall drastically more detrimental to his level of power in any given situation that isn't permanent invisibility.

 

Mag

Pull: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range limits your range

 

Shield Polarize: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range limits your range

 

*Bullet Attractor: -Duration shortens the time that the foe is effected

-Range shrinks the size of the area of magnetism?

 

Crush: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range limits the range

As far as Mag goes, a minus to range is a clear cut winner in terms of which hurts her more.

 

Rhino

*Rhino Charge: -Duration shortens the distance traveled

-Range negatively effects the skills width?

 

Iron Skin: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range has no drawbacks

 

*Roar: -Duration shortens the time which you and allies are buffed

-Range forces you to stay nearer to teammates to assist their damaging capabilities

 

*Rhino Stomp: -Duration does nothing?

-Range shortens the skills radial reach

Without a doubt, a reduction in range hits Rhino harder than a reduction to duration.

 

Oberon

*Smite: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range has... no drawbacks?

 

Hallowed Ground: -Duration cuts the uptime of each cast

-Range reduces the skill's size

 

*Rejuvenation: -Duration does something to it.

-Range has no drawbacks?

 

*Skill4: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range reduces the distance at which targets are effected radially

Another contender who is stricken greater by a loss in range.  Honestly he's one of the problem outliers in my opinion as he is hit far too hard by this change, while he's in no way problematic with FE's current state.

 

Trinity

*Well of Life: -Duration shortens how long the skill's effect lasts

-Range does something?

 

*Energy Vampire: -Duration shortens how long it lasts

-Range decreases the size of the restorative pulses?

 

*Link: -Duration shortens its duration

-Range decreases the distance at which foes can be effected by the damage transfer

 

*Blessing: -Duration shortens the buff's uptime

-Range has no drawbacks

While Trinity is indeed hit by both, her kit is overall more reliant on duration in its current state and is thusly more harmed by its loss.  However she's one of the next up for balancing changes, so there's no major reason to focus much on her at the moment.

 

Frost

*Freeze: -Duration decreases the length at which foes are frozen

-Range has no drawbacks?

 

Ice Wave: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range decreases the skills travel length

 

Snow Globe: -Duration lowers the each cast's duration

-Range decreases the skill's physical size

 

*Avalanche: -Duration has no drawbacks?

-Range shortens its range

I'd say its a bit of a toss up on Frost overall between which would impact him worse.  Overall I feel that a hit to range is further detrimental to his power, but that's easily debatable.

 

Ash

*Shuriken: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range has no drawbacks?

 

*Smoke Bomb: -Duration decreases the buff's uptime

-Range reduces the initial stun range?

 

*Teleport: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range decreases the distance at which targets can be chosen

 

*Bladestorm: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range decreases the radially targeted area around the initial mark as well as shortening the range at which the initial mark can be chosen?

And another frame which is doubtlessly hit harder by a loss in range overall.  I personally think he's lumped in with Oberon in this given field in that the hit would be too hard on him if this hypothetical change took place.

 

Nova

Null Star: -Duration reduces the total number of particles summoned per cast

-Range reduces the targeting range of the skill

 

Antimatter Drop: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range decreases the blast radius upon the orb's detonation

 

Wormhole: -Duration has no drawbacks?

-Range shortens the travel distance per hole

 

Molecular Prime: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range decreaces both the radius at which targets are initially effected at cast, as well as reducing the size of the explosion of killed foes?

Lowering range would be a greater hit to Nova's power without a shadow of a doubt.

 

Nekros

*Soul Punch: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range decreases the targeting distance

 

Terrify: -Duration decreases the skill's uptime (this can be a positive)

-Range lowers the range at which targets are effected

 

Desecrate: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range shortens the distance at which corpses can be harvested

 

Shadows of the Dead: -Duration shortens the length of time that the summons are up

-Range has no drawbacks

Overall Nekros doesn't seem to be hit too hard either way on paper.  That being said, shortening the range on his skills seems to pose a potentially greater negative to him in theory.  He is another frame which I feel that this change would hit far too hard.

 

Nyx

*Mind Control: -Duration shortens the time of which the target is controlled (can be positive)

-Range decreases targeting distance?

 

Psychic Bolts: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range effects the targeting range of the bolts

 

Chaos: -Duration shortens the debuff's duration (almost always positive)

-Range decreases the skill's range

 

*Absorb: -Duration decreases the length of time you'll absorb damage (can be positive)

-Range decreases the AoE damage burst's range?

 

*Sayrn

*Venom: -Duration shortens the length of time the spores stay?

-Range decreases targeting range?

 

*Molt: -Duration shortens the decoy's duration

-Range reduces the AoE's range?

 

*Contagion: -Duration shortens the buff's uptime

-Range has no drawbacks

 

*Miasma: -Duration increases the skill's damage?

-Range decreases targeting range

Sayrn is by a long shot my least used frame, haven't used her since Molt was given an AoE.  Anyways it's pretty straightforward that decreased range would be of a greater detriment to her kit overall.

 

Zephyr

Tailwind: -Duration shortens the distance traveled

-Range decreases the horizontal width along which foes can be harmed

 

Divebomb: -Duration has no drawback

-Range decreases the radius of the shockwave emanated upon landing

 

Turbulence: -Duration shortens the buff's duration

-Range messes with enemy targeting?

 

Tornadoes: -Duration decreases the attacks duration

-Range alters the targeting functionality (can be positive)

Without a doubt, Zephyr is afflicted more by a loss in duration.

 

Vauban

Tesla: -Duration has no drawback

-Range decreases each the targeting range of each orb placed

 

Bounce: -Duration has no drawback?

-Range has no drawback

 

Bastille: -Duration shortens the uptime the trap

-Range decreases the trap's radius

 

Vortex: -Duration shortens the trap's uptime

-Range has no drawback

Vauban is my main by a longshot so this is an area where the change jumps out at me the largest.  Overall, he's hit by both negatives reasonably.  However the change would effectively break the balance that exists between his 3 and 4, making the latter 100% better in every scenario and easier to build for simultaneously.  Basically the change wouldn't really impact him in terms of power much, but it would make him into a one trick pony.

 

*Hydroid

I literally don't have Hydroid yet, so I'll do this one later.

Edited May 12, 2014 by Bobtm0

[SquirmyBurrito]

Since I'm bored I'm gonna do something stupid while blaming it on the Nikana research still being a few solid minutes out till it'll be purchasable for me;  I'm honestly against your suggested change of having FE go from -Duration to -Range.  From my standpoint it's just inherently flawed, but that's something that's been over and discussed so instead I'm just gonna go on a lengthy breakdown on how much so things are changed by said change on a frame by frame and power by power basis.  For the record, I already definitely agree that the change would cause a greater negative effect across all frames, but overall I feel that the change in and of itself is flawed in basis.  Since not everyone has every frame, this post'll help people get a bit more of a grasp on what all would potentially occur.

 

I'm going to attempt to use spoiler tags... even though I'm not sure if they work the same on this forum as they did on the others I've been on.  I'm also going to do my absolute best to try and look at each individually and make a judgement upon which negative would provide a harsher effect upon that frame.  Any skill proceeded by an asterisk is one that I have little to no knowledge of due to simply not using it much at all.  If anyone has something to add and clarify on such skills I'll gladly edit the list to note the correct impact of each negative.

 

Excalibur

Slash Dash: -Duration causes a loss in distance traveled

-Range causes a loss in horizontal striking width along the path traveled

 

Radial Blind: -Duration causes a loss in the blinding effect's duration

-Range causes a loss in range

 

Super Jump: -Duration has no drawback

-Range has no drawback

 

*Radial Javelin: -Duration ... doesn't duration play into the number of javelins?  Not really sure.

-Range has no drawback that I know of

On ol' Excal I feel that a hit to duration and range are nearly equal in terms of drawbacks.  Overall I would give the slight edge to -Duration in terms of negatives as per the way each minus effects his 1s prowess as a mobility tool.

 

Loki

Decoy: -Duration means your decoy will last for a shorter period

-Range means your effective choices in decoy placement are more limited at any given moment

 

Invisibility: -Duration is self explainitory

-Range has no drawbacks

 

Switch Teleport: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range limits your effective targeting range

 

Radial Disarm: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range decreases enemies disarmed per cast by proxy

With Loki I feel that a -Range is overall drastically more detrimental to his level of power in any given situation that isn't permanent invisibility.

 

Mag

Pull: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range limits your range

 

Shield Polarize: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range limits your range

 

*Bullet Attractor: -Duration shortens the time that the foe is effected

-Range shrinks the size of the area of magnetism?

 

Crush: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range limits the range

As far as Mag goes, a minus to range is a clear cut winner in terms of which hurts her more.

 

Rhino

*Rhino Charge: -Duration shortens the distance traveled

-Range negatively effects the skills width?

 

Iron Skin: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range has no drawbacks

 

*Roar: -Duration shortens the time which you and allies are buffed

-Range forces you to stay nearer to teammates to assist their damaging capabilities

 

*Rhino Stomp: -Duration does nothing?

-Range shortens the skills radial reach

Without a doubt, a reduction in range hits Rhino harder than a reduction to duration.

 

Oberon

*Smite: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range has... no drawbacks?

 

Hallowed Ground: -Duration cuts the uptime of each cast

-Range reduces the skill's size

 

*Rejuvenation: -Duration does something to it.

-Range has no drawbacks?

 

*Skill4: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range reduces the distance at which targets are effected radially

Another contender who is stricken greater by a loss in range.  Honestly he's one of the problem outliers in my opinion as he is hit far too hard by this change, while he's in no way problematic with FE's current state.

 

Trinity

*Well of Life: -Duration shortens how long the skill's effect lasts

-Range does something?

 

*Energy Vampire: -Duration shortens how long it lasts

-Range decreases the size of the restorative pulses?

 

*Link: -Duration shortens its duration

-Range decreases the distance at which foes can be effected by the damage transfer

 

*Blessing: -Duration shortens the buff's uptime

-Range has no drawbacks

While Trinity is indeed hit by both, her kit is overall more reliant on duration in its current state and is thusly more harmed by its loss.  However she's one of the next up for balancing changes, so there's no major reason to focus much on her at the moment.

 

Frost

*Freeze: -Duration decreases the length at which foes are frozen

-Range has no drawbacks?

 

Ice Wave: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range decreases the skills travel length

 

Snow Globe: -Duration lowers the each cast's duration

-Range decreases the skill's physical size

 

*Avalanche: -Duration has no drawbacks?

-Range shortens its range

I'd say its a bit of a toss up on Frost overall between which would impact him worse.  Overall I feel that a hit to range is further detrimental to his power, but that's easily debatable.

 

Ash

*Shuriken: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range has no drawbacks?

 

*Smoke Bomb: -Duration decreases the buff's uptime

-Range reduces the initial stun range?

 

*Teleport: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range decreases the distance at which targets can be chosen

 

*Bladestorm: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range decreases the radially targeted area around the initial mark as well as shortening the range at which the initial mark can be chosen?

And another frame which is doubtlessly hit harder by a loss in range overall.  I personally think he's lumped in with Oberon in this given field in that the hit would be too hard on him if this hypothetical change took place.

 

Nova

Null Star: -Duration reduces the total number of particles summoned per cast

-Range reduces the targeting range of the skill

 

Antimatter Drop: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range decreases the blast radius upon the orb's detonation

 

Wormhole: -Duration has no drawbacks?

-Range shortens the travel distance per hole

 

Molecular Prime: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range decreaces both the radius at which targets are initially effected at cast, as well as reducing the size of the explosion of killed foes?

Lowering range would be a greater hit to Nova's power without a shadow of a doubt.

 

Nekros

*Soul Punch: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range decreases the targeting distance

 

Terrify: -Duration decreases the skill's uptime (this can be a positive)

-Range lowers the range at which targets are effected

 

Desecrate: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range shortens the distance at which corpses can be harvested

 

Shadows of the Dead: -Duration shortens the length of time that the summons are up

-Range has no drawbacks

Overall Nekros doesn't seem to be hit too hard either way on paper.  That being said, shortening the range on his skills seems to pose a potentially greater negative to him in theory.  He is another frame which I feel that this change would hit far too hard.

 

______________________________

I'll finish the rest later... this is taking longer than I had anticipated.

 

Nyx

 

Zephyr

 

Vauban

 

*Hydroid

 

You have my respect for going through the trouble of doing this.

 

One quick thing, wiki says Radial Javelin is affected by range and that duration has no affect.

So far my frame of mine leads me to believe that my proposal is a lot more effective than others were admitting. The situations where a frame is hit too hard come down to a phrase I absolutely hate "just don't use it". I hate that phrase because it has been used against me EVERY time I propose a change in the name of balance or declare that something isn't balanced.

 

I definitely agree that Ash and Oberon are both hit pretty hard by my proposed change (Ash was one of the 4/4s). I didn't pay much attention to Oberon either. I think (this is me speculating) that should my change be implemented, Overextended might be able to help them somewhat. 

 

The biggest flaw I see in my proposed change (and the majority of the proposed changes) is that they disrupt the names of the corrupted mods. Fleeting Expertise doesn't make a whole lot of sense when it is +efficiency-range (narrow minded would fit the description better imo), overextended doesn't make a whole lot of sense with +range-duration, Narrow Minded doesn't make a whole lot of sense with +duration-efficiency.

 

[-CM-Crazy]

How about all corrupted mods add a cool down once an ability ends?

[(PSN)Bobtm0]

Thanks for the heads up on Radial Javelin Squirmy, I edited that in and wrapped up the post for now.

 

Given that U13 just hit us over on PS4 I don't have Hydroid quite yet, but I'll have him here in just a few days and get a brief analysis on him added to that list when I've had a bit of time to mess with him.

 

At the end of the day, the change you suggest for FE could indeed work out.  I still vehemently disagree with it though :p  To me it just goes against the fundamental idea of what the mod does.  Cut the cost by the same rate that it cuts the duration.

 

Plus it breaks Vauban... so maybe I'm just being a smidge biased.

[SquirmyBurrito]

Thanks for the heads up on Radial Javelin Squirmy, I edited that in and wrapped up the post for now.

 

Given that U13 just hit us over on PS4 I don't have Hydroid quite yet, but I'll have him here in just a few days and get a brief analysis on him added to that list when I've had a bit of time to mess with him.

 

At the end of the day, the change you suggest for FE could indeed work out.  I still vehemently disagree with it though :p  To me it just goes against the fundamental idea of what the mod does.  Cut the cost by the same rate that it cuts the duration.

 

Plus it breaks Vauban... so maybe I'm just being a smidge biased.

 

I don't have Hydroid and really do not plan on getting him. I am just far too lazy to bother with that. *shrugs* maybe I'll buy him.

 

Yeah... now that the name thing finally popped into my head I kinda want FE to remain as is. Kinda sad that the mismatched names is more important to me than the balance I was advocating for... lol

[sanj66]

Since I'm bored I'm gonna do something stupid while blaming it on the Nikana research still being a few solid minutes out till it'll be purchasable for me;  I'm honestly against your suggested change of having FE go from -Duration to -Range.  From my standpoint it's just inherently flawed, but that's something that's been over and discussed so instead I'm just gonna go on a lengthy breakdown on how much so things are changed by said change on a frame by frame and power by power basis.  For the record, I already definitely agree that the change would cause a greater negative effect across all frames, but overall I feel that the change in and of itself is flawed in basis.  Since not everyone has every frame, this post'll help people get a bit more of a grasp on what all would potentially occur.

 

I'm going to attempt to use spoiler tags... even though I'm not sure if they work the same on this forum as they did on the others I've been on.  I'm also going to do my absolute best to try and look at each individually and make a judgement upon which negative would provide a harsher effect upon that frame.  Any skill proceeded by an asterisk is one that I have little to no knowledge of due to simply not using it much at all.  If anyone has something to add and clarify on such skills I'll gladly edit the list to note the correct impact of each negative.

 

Excalibur

Slash Dash: -Duration causes a loss in distance traveled

-Range causes a loss in horizontal striking width along the path traveled

 

Radial Blind: -Duration causes a loss in the blinding effect's duration

-Range causes a loss in range

 

Super Jump: -Duration has no drawback

-Range has no drawback

 

*Radial Javelin: -Duration has no drawbacks.

-Range interferes with targeting range?

On ol' Excal I feel that a hit to duration and range are nearly equal in terms of drawbacks.  Overall I would give the slight edge to -Duration in terms of negatives as per the way each minus effects his 1s prowess as a mobility tool.

 

Loki

Decoy: -Duration means your decoy will last for a shorter period

-Range means your effective choices in decoy placement are more limited at any given moment

 

Invisibility: -Duration is self explainitory

-Range has no drawbacks

 

Switch Teleport: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range limits your effective targeting range

 

Radial Disarm: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range decreases enemies disarmed per cast by proxy

With Loki I feel that a -Range is overall drastically more detrimental to his level of power in any given situation that isn't permanent invisibility.

 

Mag

Pull: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range limits your range

 

Shield Polarize: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range limits your range

 

*Bullet Attractor: -Duration shortens the time that the foe is effected

-Range shrinks the size of the area of magnetism?

 

Crush: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range limits the range

As far as Mag goes, a minus to range is a clear cut winner in terms of which hurts her more.

 

Rhino

*Rhino Charge: -Duration shortens the distance traveled

-Range negatively effects the skills width?

 

Iron Skin: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range has no drawbacks

 

*Roar: -Duration shortens the time which you and allies are buffed

-Range forces you to stay nearer to teammates to assist their damaging capabilities

 

*Rhino Stomp: -Duration does nothing?

-Range shortens the skills radial reach

Without a doubt, a reduction in range hits Rhino harder than a reduction to duration.

 

Oberon

*Smite: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range has... no drawbacks?

 

Hallowed Ground: -Duration cuts the uptime of each cast

-Range reduces the skill's size

 

*Rejuvenation: -Duration does something to it.

-Range has no drawbacks?

 

*Skill4: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range reduces the distance at which targets are effected radially

Another contender who is stricken greater by a loss in range.  Honestly he's one of the problem outliers in my opinion as he is hit far too hard by this change, while he's in no way problematic with FE's current state.

 

Trinity

*Well of Life: -Duration shortens how long the skill's effect lasts

-Range does something?

 

*Energy Vampire: -Duration shortens how long it lasts

-Range decreases the size of the restorative pulses?

 

*Link: -Duration shortens its duration

-Range decreases the distance at which foes can be effected by the damage transfer

 

*Blessing: -Duration shortens the buff's uptime

-Range has no drawbacks

While Trinity is indeed hit by both, her kit is overall more reliant on duration in its current state and is thusly more harmed by its loss.  However she's one of the next up for balancing changes, so there's no major reason to focus much on her at the moment.

 

Frost

*Freeze: -Duration decreases the length at which foes are frozen

-Range has no drawbacks?

 

Ice Wave: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range decreases the skills travel length

 

Snow Globe: -Duration lowers the each cast's duration

-Range decreases the skill's physical size

 

*Avalanche: -Duration has no drawbacks?

-Range shortens its range

I'd say its a bit of a toss up on Frost overall between which would impact him worse.  Overall I feel that a hit to range is further detrimental to his power, but that's easily debatable.

 

Ash

*Shuriken: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range has no drawbacks?

 

*Smoke Bomb: -Duration decreases the buff's uptime

-Range reduces the initial stun range?

 

*Teleport: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range decreases the distance at which targets can be chosen

 

*Bladestorm: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range decreases the radially targeted area around the initial mark as well as shortening the range at which the initial mark can be chosen?

And another frame which is doubtlessly hit harder by a loss in range overall.  I personally think he's lumped in with Oberon in this given field in that the hit would be too hard on him if this hypothetical change took place.

 

Nova

Null Star: -Duration reduces the total number of particles summoned per cast

-Range reduces the targeting range of the skill

 

Antimatter Drop: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range decreases the blast radius upon the orb's detonation

 

Wormhole: -Duration has no drawbacks?

-Range shortens the travel distance per hole

 

Molecular Prime: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range decreaces both the radius at which targets are initially effected at cast, as well as reducing the size of the explosion of killed foes?

Lowering range would be a greater hit to Nova's power without a shadow of a doubt.

 

Nekros

*Soul Punch: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range decreases the targeting distance

 

Terrify: -Duration decreases the skill's uptime (this can be a positive)

-Range lowers the range at which targets are effected

 

Desecrate: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range shortens the distance at which corpses can be harvested

 

Shadows of the Dead: -Duration shortens the length of time that the summons are up

-Range has no drawbacks

Overall Nekros doesn't seem to be hit too hard either way on paper.  That being said, shortening the range on his skills seems to pose a potentially greater negative to him in theory.  He is another frame which I feel that this change would hit far too hard.

 

Nyx

*Mind Control: -Duration shortens the time of which the target is controlled (can be positive)

-Range decreases targeting distance?

 

Psychic Bolts: -Duration has no drawbacks

-Range effects the targeting range of the bolts

 

Chaos: -Duration shortens the debuff's duration (almost always positive)

-Range decreases the skill's range

 

*Absorb: -Duration decreases the length of time you'll absorb damage (can be positive)

-Range decreases the AoE damage burst's range?

 

*Sayrn

*Venom: -Duration shortens the length of time the spores stay?

-Range decreases targeting range?

 

*Molt: -Duration shortens the decoy's duration

-Range reduces the AoE's range?

 

*Contagion: -Duration shortens the buff's uptime

-Range has no drawbacks

 

*Miasma: -Duration increases the skill's damage?

-Range decreases targeting range

Sayrn is by a long shot my least used frame, haven't used her since Molt was given an AoE.  Anyways it's pretty straightforward that decreased range would be of a greater detriment to her kit overall.

 

Zephyr

Tailwind: -Duration shortens the distance traveled

-Range decreases the horizontal width along which foes can be harmed

 

Divebomb: -Duration has no drawback

-Range decreases the radius of the shockwave emanated upon landing

 

Turbulence: -Duration shortens the buff's duration

-Range messes with enemy targeting?

 

Tornadoes: -Duration decreases the attacks duration

-Range alters the targeting functionality (can be positive)

Without a doubt, Zephyr is afflicted more by a loss in duration.

 

Vauban

Tesla: -Duration has no drawback

-Range decreases each the targeting range of each orb placed

 

Bounce: -Duration has no drawback?

-Range has no drawback

 

Bastille: -Duration shortens the uptime the trap

-Range decreases the trap's radius

 

Vortex: -Duration shortens the trap's uptime

-Range has no drawback

Vauban is my main by a longshot so this is an area where the change jumps out at me the largest.  Overall, he's hit by both negatives reasonably.  However the change would effectively break the balance that exists between his 3 and 4, making the latter 100% better in every scenario and easier to build for simultaneously.  Basically the change wouldn't really impact him in terms of power much, but it would make him into a one trick pony.

 

*Hydroid

I literally don't have Hydroid yet, so I'll do this one later.

hydroid's tidal, undertow and ult is duration based , his #3 and 4 is also range based, his #1 is str based i dont use that skill much and just leveled him,it may be ranged as well based on how far you can launch the barrage. now this is what i meant to squirmy you cant just look at statistics and say hey x frames are affected or y amount of skills, you must look at each skill and see how this change affects them and how it affects the frame overall. yes it affects all frames but look at how many frames have the balance of skills almost destroy.

[Seele]

I appreciate how respectful most of the discussion has been, and great ideas all around, but man you guys need to start snipping your quotes.

[HansJurgen]

Not a day passes without someone asking for some kind of nerf to suit his preferred weapon, frame and ability setup.

[Seele]

Not a day passes without someone asking for some kind of nerf to suit his preferred weapon, frame and ability setup.

If you'd read the discussion you'd see that none of this is to cater to any one of our builds. There are people who use FE here in this thread that agree it needs a nerf because they feel they have to use it to do well.

 

This is for the good of a game which we all care about but clearly needs some second and third opinions in terms of balance.

[HansJurgen]

If you'd read the discussion you'd see that none of this is to cater to any one of our builds. There are people who use FE here in this thread that agree it needs a nerf because they feel they have to use it to do well.

 

This is for the good of a game which we all care about but clearly needs some second and third opinions in terms of balance.

 

The best way to correct this issue is to have FE removed altogether, or have it remade in such a way that it does the following:

 

- it has 3 ranks (0 to 2), each rank reduces the casting cost by 25%. Each rank however downgrades all of your abilities by one rank. In essence, a maxed FE would downgrade all your abilities to rank 0, while their casting cost would be just 25% of their standard casting cost.

 

rank 0 FE = -25% casting cost, -1 ability rank

rank 1 FE = -50% casting cost, -2 ability rank

rank 2 FE = -75% casting cost, -3 ability rank

 

In essence, it enables you to spam your abilities at reduced overall effectiveness. Alternatively, get rid of FE altogether and make it so unranked abilities cost less to cast (as it should have been from the get go).

Edited May 12, 2014 by HansJurgen

[SquirmyBurrito]

hydroid's tidal, undertow and ult is duration based , his #3 and 4 is also range based, his #1 is str based i dont use that skill much and just leveled him,it may be ranged as well based on how far you can launch the barrage. now this is what i meant to squirmy you cant just look at statistics and say hey x frames are affected or y amount of skills, you must look at each skill and see how this change affects them and how it affects the frame overall. yes it affects all frames but look at how many frames have the balance of skills almost destroy.

 

Y'know, none of the frames were destroyed by this change. Some were hurt more (Oberon and Ash being the only real examples) and neither of them HAVE to use a full Nu-FE. Your argument has so many holes in it that I'm not even sure why you continue to clothe yourself in it. His post only served to reinforce my opinion. My change statistically affects more frames, and even on an ability-by-ability basis it works for most frames and most abilities. No frame is completely destroyed by this change primarily because this isn't a proposed FRAME nerf, its a mod change. You do not have to equip the mod, you do not have to max it. That's like saying Blind Rage destroys frames because at max rank it makes freely using your powers impossible without a Trinity backing you or a ton of consumables. Just stop, you've failed.

 

Not a day passes without someone asking for some kind of nerf to suit his preferred weapon, frame and ability setup.

 

You really shouldn't trust Sanj's ad hominems. Read through the thread to understand what this thread is actually about.

 

The best way to correct this issue is to have FE removed altogether, or have it remade in such a way that it does the following:

 

- it has 3 ranks (0 to 2), each rank reduces the casting cost by 25%. Each rank however downgrades all of your abilities by one rank. In essence, a maxed FE would downgrade all your abilities to rank 0, while their casting cost would be just 25% of their standard casting cost.

 

rank 0 FE = -25% casting cost, -1 ability rank

rank 1 FE = -50% casting cost, -2 ability rank

rank 2 FE = -75% casting cost, -3 ability rank

 

In essence, it enables you to spam your abilities at reduced overall effectiveness. Alternatively, get rid of FE altogether and make it so unranked abilities cost less to cast (as it should have been from the get go).

 

Are there any abilities that are actually worth using at their lowest rank? I can't think of any. And if that ends up being the case the downside would be far to much to justify the positive. This also becomes another heavy caliber in that its debuff can't be countered in any capacity.