Excalibur 2.0 - We Are Almost There!

[LordChronos]

would be nice if radial blind increased crit chance on affected targets!!! Please, this please. DE, please!

[CTanGod]

Good thing Super jump is going away (logical move tho) anyway I hope Radial Blind never goes away it and Prism are the ultimate melee ability in the game: Enemies don't fight back and you hack them to bits while still being godly good utility at any level.

[VanguardT-EN-]

r0ckwolf Man if someday there's a war i want to be on your side, very good job tenno.

[Burnthesteak87]

You made it guys. Nice work!

[(PSN)Fen_Integrum]

The replacement for Super Jump seems kind of boring to me. I think that, perhaps as something similar, he goes into a toggleable power where he is in full defensive, using a similar system to that of Peacemaker, where he has a perfect 100% chance to counter, and blocking ranged does not deplete Stamina, and each parry counts against his energy in a similar way as Absorb does. 

[r0ckwolf]

The replacement for Super Jump seems kind of boring to me. I think that, perhaps as something similar, he goes into a toggleable power where he is in full defensive, using a similar system to that of Peacemaker, where he has a perfect 100% chance to counter, and blocking ranged does not deplete Stamina, and each parry counts against his energy in a similar way as Absorb does. 

well, i don´t think it´s boring at all! :)

[(PSN)Fen_Integrum]

well, i don´t think it´s boring at all! :)

 

Well, congratulations on it being implemented in game, anyway. 

[(XBOX)BAMMM Lightning]

Now this is what I'm talking about. I'm a little skeptical on how they do the new ult, but here's hoping it puts Excalibur in line with the other frames. 

[Sashmaul]

I'm looking forward to the changes to excal. The only thing I would like is radial blinds LOS to be use in a different way. The way I would like is instead of the ability not affecting enemies in the area rather it would reduce the duration the ability lasts on the enemy's not in LOS. However so the ability is not OP the maximum range would be reduced or is a fixed range and not affected by range mods. This would also fit radial blinds description as it is in the game right now. But that is my preference.

[(PSN)xX-GunHound-Xx]

You have that backwards.

If they allowed it for all weapons they would not have to make any new animations. You'd be using an existing stance.

All they'd have to make is the energy waves that fly off of whatever weapon is equipped. Which is mostly animating some particle effects. The waves don't even have to vary in size or anything per weapons. The only thing to tweak between them would be the damage values to account for an equal damage output regardless of swing speed.

That is actually less work than making animations for a whole new stance like they are planning to do now.

Wait, so instead of adding a singular stance to fit for Ex, it's easier to add waves to EVERY stance in the game. I'm sorry to say but that sounds kind of backwards as well. And it just isn't adding particle effects, game design is far more difficult than that. There's coding, algorithms, and bugs to iron out to get the aforementioned affects for this energy wave ability to his sword. Not to mention they would have to sit through each and every stance just to do this. The amount of time it would take to implement this would be weeks or even months with the onslaught of others updates they have to add and fix together. Giving the stance solely to Ex is an easier move to pull, as opposed to trying to figure out the coding as to not to disrupt the weapons animation and damage values due to bugs from corrupt distribution of an algorithm.

It's almost as if you're adding animations to entirely different stances, now THAT sound harder. Just my $0.2

Edited April 11, 2015 by (PS4)xX-GunHound-Xx

[Ronyn]

Wait, so instead of adding a singular stance to fit for Ex, it's easier to add waves to EVERY stance in the game. I'm sorry to say but that sounds kind of backwards as well. And it just isn't adding particle effects, game design is far more difficult than that. There's coding, algorithms, and bugs to iron out to get the aforementioned affects for this energy wave ability to his sword. Not to mention they would have to sit through each and every stance just to do this. The amount of time it would take to implement this would be weeks or even months with the onslaught of others updates they have to add and fix together. Giving the stance solely to Ex is an easier move to pull, as opposed to trying to figure out the coding as to not to disrupt the weapons animation and damage values due to bugs from corrupt distribution of an algorithm.

It's almost as if you're adding animations to entirely different stances, now THAT sound harder. Just my $0.2

When I say its adding particle effects i mean including the whole process that takes.

If we are going to talk about coding and potential bugs then obviously that applies to anything that gets made. Including the excalibur only stance.

Also worth noting that de was talking about creating a way in which it factored in the mods on the weapon you're using. Which will already mean things like adjustments for swing speed and damage per strike will come into play. Not to mention some animations are complex to create than others. They are going to be making energy waves either way.

And its not like the energy waves have to a different size or shape based on the weapon used. They can be the same size regardless of weapon and only vary in damage per strike and swing speed.

Adding energy wave projectiles onto existing weapons is in no way more work than creating a whole new stance. In fact depending on exactly how the coding for reach mods,elemental effects and channeling works right now they may already have some solid framework to build the waves themselves onto all weapons in a sort of blanket way.

For whatever its worth: I don't much code or animate my self these days as I'm in a different department.

However I am use to working with the people who do and working around the issues they bring to me.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Ronyn

[WolvenEdge]

I took a few coding and animation classes myself, and have personally worked on a few projects. Sorry, Ronyn. If you wish to add energy waves with the system they have in place right now, that means going through every frame of every existing stance to add in the energy wave emmission/instance generation frame, if they are using a solid energy wave model/particle, which I think they won't, as they actually want something that LOOKS GOOD... I mean, throwing an energy blast off of a hammer is going to look a lot different than energy waves from a pair of daggers.

 

To fit their current graphical style they have to design the energy wave (model or particle) flexible enough to have different parts instanciated at different frames of every swing they wish to add energy waves to. How many stances are there in this game? Wiki says 35, including the ones that aren't officially out yet... and they're working on more. That's how many frames average per attack that you have to dig through and add animations for, then adjust after interpolation to ensure graphical integrity, then fine-tune the bugs out of?

 

Scavenging a few animations from various stances, tweaking them enough to make them their own, adding a few new ones, and then adding the energy wave system to ONE stance is far fewer steps, far easier on the devs, it looks great, is quite functional, and is far less time-consuming.

Edited April 12, 2015 by WolvenEdge

[Hypernaut1]

I took a few coding and animation classes myself, and have personally worked on a few projects. Sorry, Ronyn. If you wish to add energy waves with the system they have in place right now, that means going through every frame of every existing stance to add in the energy wave emmission/instance generation frame, if they are using a solid energy wave model/particle, which I think they won't, as they actually want something that LOOKS GOOD... I mean, throwing an energy blast off of a hammer is going to look a lot different than energy waves from a pair of daggers.

 

To fit their current graphical style they have to design the energy wave (model or particle) flexible enough to have different parts instanciated at different frames of every swing they wish to add energy waves to. How many stances are there in this game? Wiki says 35, including the ones that aren't officially out yet... and they're working on more. That's how many frames average per attack that you have to dig through and add animations for, then adjust after interpolation to ensure graphical integrity, then fine-tune the bugs out of?

 

Scavenging a few animations from various stances, tweaking them enough to make them their own, adding a few new ones, and then adding the energy wave system to ONE stance is far fewer steps, far easier on the devs, it looks great, is quite functional, and is far less time-consuming.

-with the added bonus of still making sense!  There really is no reason for them to add energy blades to all weapons.

 

I like how Mesa feels like she has 2 secondaries. Excal will feel like the sword version of Mesa, carrying two melee weapons.

[Ronyn]

I took a few coding and animation classes myself, and have personally worked on a few projects. Sorry, Ronyn. 

I've worked on more than a few projects. My argument stands.

[WolvenEdge]

Yet you've given nothing to back your point up. Explain please? If I'm wrong I'll thank you for the lesson, and maybe even implement what I learn in a future project.

[Ronyn]

Yet you've given nothing to back your point up. Explain please? If I'm wrong I'll thank you for the lesson, and maybe even implement what I learn in a future project.

We are already into this in the other thread...I'll just continue it there.

[WolvenEdge]

Aye, I'll copy the discussion into this thread for reader reference later. If you don't mind, of course.

[Cohee]

https://giant.gfycat.com/TestyCourageousAssassinbug.webm

 

pretty much that xD

[WolvenEdge]

Yes, pretty much that Meismarc. But that game uses very predictable attacks and only two sprites (at different angles) to cover the needs of energy wave launch, so it can use the simple system of launching the energy wave at the hit frame and only using the two sprites, it's predictablle. There are only two attack animations that launch an energy wave, and they are at those specific angles, nothing more. We're talking WarFrame here, where every stance has different attacks at different angles and a constant hitframe scenario... it's almost cliptest, but not. That's the basic idea, yes, but WarFrame's melee combat animations aren't so simplistic as to be able to pull that off. Imagining that energy wave flying off of a spinning pair of daggers almost has me unable to breathe for laughing. X3

[Cohee]

Yes, pretty much that Meismarc. But that game uses very predictable attacks and only two sprites (at different angles) to cover the needs of energy wave launch, so it can use the simple system of launching the energy wave at the hit frame and only using the two sprites, it's predictablle. There are only two attack animations that launch an energy wave, and they are at those specific angles, nothing more. We're talking WarFrame here, where every stance has different attacks at different angles and a constant hitframe scenario... it's almost cliptest, but not. That's the basic idea, yes, but WarFrame's melee combat animations aren't so simplistic as to be able to pull that off. Imagining that energy wave flying off of a spinning pair of daggers almost has me unable to breathe for laughing. X3

We will never know <3 till the trailer... never the less I'm still excited!

[WolvenEdge]

Breaking something down with experiments is a major F*** up to begin with. Something you would loose your job over in any other buisness. And now they attempt to fix something they broke themselfes after ignoring us for a couple months.

 

Uhm... this game is still openly under development? Have you noticed that the version hasn't even reached 1.0 yet? This is NOT the game in its final form in any case at all, such is the way with beta software. Trick is not to get used to anything and expect things to change. Things WILL be experimented with to see whether it makes them better or worse for the playerbase, and DE can and does listen to our feedback. As the title said; they have now said that they will be giving Excalibur's abilities another look now that the mechanics of the game have changed. This isn't something breaking and being hastily glued back together, this plate hasn't even been fired yet, so stop being a rock in the clay and let the game try to change into something better.

[WolvenEdge]

Well... I said I'd copy the conversation between myself and Ronyn over to this thread as well for any who wished to read it. So... here goes.

I don't know how to quote in this thread from another thread... so I'll have to do it the old fashioned way. :P

 

 

Me;

Uhm, excuse me? It isn't a 'locked melee mode'. Locked; likely not, it's probably going to be a toggle. Melee... pardon, that's what the energy waves are for? Range? Sure, it's a melee weapon, but we're pulling Master Sword Laser Getsuga Tenshou things here, that's nowhere near melee-restrictive, their entire purpose is to hit things farther away than you can smack with your sword.

 

And some of you seem to be vastly underestimating the amount of work that goes into changing animations. The energy wave will be one of two things; a particle, or a model. In either case, they can't do a one-size-fits all thing if they were going to make it open for use with any weapon. But for the purpose of making my point, I'll go with the 'one wave fits all weapons' scenario.

 

They have to go through the animations frame by frame to see which ones would make the most sense for calling the instance of the energy wave, so that when you swing your sword it's convincing that the wave is coming off of the blade. Suspension of disbelief.

Then they have to decide the emission point and orientation for those same animations, so that when you swing your sword downward you don't end up with a horizontal energy wave flying out from your sword.

On top of that, they have to instanciate the sprite/particle/model for the energy slash in such a way as not to cause too many graphical oddities when you launch it... such as your frame being pointed one way, your aimer pointed another, and watching the energy wave fly backwards off your sword, through Excalibur's poor face, to where your aimer is pointing.

Then they have to run the animations through the game's interpolation engine, making sure that the slight changes wrought by animation smoothing don't wreak havok with the visuals... because we as fans WILL notice, and many WILL complain.

They have to do the code, modeling, tagging and any other processes for EVERY SINGLE FRAME that they want to emit an energy blade... it's not a one-size-fits-all system like they have for blade reach or swing speed, those are mathematical calculations based on the blade draw function and the animation speed function (which relies on interpolation).

There are about 35 stances in the game, and more coming out as the game develops further. If you want every single weapon to be able to be used with Excal's proposed new ability, you will be asking DE to do what they are currently developing for one stance, which isn't easy as is the point of my post, and make that for at least one frame per attack animation in every single stance that already exists or will exist.

 

TL,TT;DR

Sorry, but from someone who has taken classes and worked on a few projects involving animation, modeling, and coding, making one stance with a unique system for energy waves is much, much easier, much, much less time consuming, and overall likely a better system (quality vs. quantity) than trying to add energy waves to every single attack for every single stance. Excal will be getting his own weapon for it. Maybe they'll eventually make 'stances' for Excalibur (and maybe Valkyr as well) so that their abilities can have more than one form, but that is way down the line, and they have many other things to work on, what with Parkour/Movement 2.0 coming up, the new orbiter compartment being worked on, an entirely new faction in the works with unique units that need to be modeled, rigged, animated, coded....

 

TL;DR 2

It's far more efficient and doesn't demand nearly as much resources at crunch time to give Excal his own stance and weapon. Trying to put the energy wave ability in every stance would be a long, tough process. Not that making an entirely new stance isn't, but this shortens and aleviates the work load considerably.

 

 

Ronyn;

Respectfully, I am not uninitiated into the industry or unfamiliar with what it takes to get things done.

You're both misrepresenting what "some of us" think as well as adding several assumptions to how it has to be done.

 

Again-it really depends on how they approach it, what framework is already in place, and what they feel is necessary.

 

 

Me;

What framework is already in place? If you're going to edit animations to launch projectiles, there's really only two or three ways to go about it, and only one of them will actually develop a framework that works, at the cost of sacrificing most of the visual quality of the result and destroying suspension of disbelief.

Please, tell me. I wanna hear this, if I can learn something new, you'll get my most profound thanks.

 

Again; even if you were only using a single sprite, you would have to work out the timings to make sense, the emission point to make sense for the animations, and the orientation of the slash. You can't do that at runtime without causing some major lag, and WarFrame is rather well known for being well streamlined.

 

 

Ronyn;

This is a long conversation to really delve into it. 

Let me just ask you a few questions-

How does the reach mod work with all the different weapons? Is it set by hand for each weapon or is there a system in place that inherently allows a weapons reach to be altered? Same question for the elemental effects and channeling effects.

 

 

Me;

From what I can observe, it works much the same way as the blade length system in the Jedi Outcast or Jedi Academy games; every blade has a draw length from a specific point(s) on the weapon that is used in the actual calculation to determine hit/not hit. As a result, telling the game to use a different value for length of blade draw is a simple enough calculation.

 

 

Ronyn;

And if you have a system that automatically calculates effects such as length and placement....

then adding on a system that creates a wave and releases it form those points dynamically would be...

 

 

Me;

Well, there's one flaw there; it doesn't determine placement at runtime, the animation decides placement via a 'tag bone' in the model... at least in JKA. (Converting from blender to the free version of 3dStudio to run the tags then playing with the config files to get the blade lengths right was a pain in the arse.)

 

Building the sprite in sections, and using mathematics to generate the wave segments at different points in the weapon's swing based on percent of swing overall length would work but... again; more calculations at runtime than necessary, and would make some pretty messy-looking waves when done with a slow weapon, or when done while moving.

 

E.G; the Galatine's swing would be generating the slash wave at intervals around the hit frame, let's say 25% of the swing either way from it. Divide that length up into four, six, or more likely eight pieces, and have each piece launch the linkage for its section of the energy wave. That would be a workable system at runtime... but if one is coptering? If one is moving sideways while launching it? The energy wave is stretched and deformed beyond recognition, turning into lovely S-bends and wierd squiggles instead of an actual shear projection as suggested.

 

 

Edit; I just realized that this system would make some interesting waves off of several weapon/stance combos... good God that first spin with the Tempo Royale stance... circular energy wave of destruction anyone? XwX

 

 

Ronyn;

You don't think this is the kind of issue they could overcome the placement at runtime issue with some smart coding? Would the waves even be literal projectiles or just visual effects to provide visual feedback where something like a beam effect took place.
I happen to know of an example where some folks did something very similar to what we are discussing. Unfortunately I'm not allowed to be specific as to who and what project.

Admittedly I haven't animated myself in some time as I am in a different department these days but I am use to working those who do. Imo this is a reasonable aproach.

But I'm willing to agree to disagree because I've got other stuff to do. Heh

Side question: Did your teacher have you animate bubbles to emulate elastic motion too? This was a long time ago....lol

 

 

Me;

Not bubbles, per se... but he did have us animate a rubber ball and make it squash and wobble realistically enough while bouncing. Took me three tries because I just HAD to be the overachiever and make the ball roll as well as bounce. TwT

 

All this conversation, and we both admit that DE has more experience than we do on such matters. X3 I have to say I'm looking forward to seeing how they pull this off.

 

 

Ronyn;

ha. right on. The reason I brought up bubbles is because of how it forced us to deal with the issues in question.

Was some fun times despite all the stress. :-)

 

 

Me;

He didn't ask us to cause the animation at runtime... ActionScript doesn't really lend itself to that very well. He showed a script that would do it... and it was about the size of smaller games that we programmed later in the course. >w< Was really something else to see... this is why I'll admit I'm kind of biased against forcing runtime generation of this kind of thing rather than having the cues in the animation itself, which would make the sprite part of the animation until launch. Generally a bit less stress on the computer, and less overall code. But that's just me.

Kind of have to wonder what you had to do with bubbles.

 

 

Ronyn;

I do totally see where you are coming from. Its not without merit.

 

Had to make a system where there was one of those wire shapes that you could move around the screen and it would make bubbles.

When done right if you changed the shape of the wire shape it would inherently change the shape of the bubble.

So long ago though...I don't even remember half the technical terms these days...and I have long since placed my personal focus on other things.

There is a reason I didn't pursue animation as my chosen path. :-)

I prefer the class design and narrative design more.

 

 

Me;

Pretty awesome sounding, that. Almost makes me wish I could go into video game design as my major... but no, I'm nowhere near ready for that kind of competitive atmosphere. I'll stick with making mods in my spare time while I study wildlife biology. :P

 

Good talking to you when you actually put the time in to explain your position, thanks. Most of the people I meet online in forums like this don't take the time or effort, thank you. -short bow-

 

 

 

And I'm done. -phew-

Don't ever tell me I dun' stick to my word. TwT

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Uhm... this game is still openly under development? Have you noticed that the version hasn't even reached 1.0 yet? This is NOT the game in its final form in any case at all, such is the way with beta software. Trick is not to get used to anything and expect things to change. Things WILL be experimented with to see whether it makes them better or worse for the playerbase, and DE can and does listen to our feedback. As the title said; they have now said that they will be giving Excalibur's abilities another look now that the mechanics of the game have changed. This isn't something breaking and being hastily glued back together, this plate hasn't even been fired yet, so stop being a rock in the clay and let the game try to change into something better.

For what? 5 years now?...

Sry man but they allready made more money then most producers with theyr game and mostly use the beta status as cheap excuse in my oppinion.

[Rexlars]

in my oppinion.

 

End of conversation.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Rexlars

[WolvenEdge]

For what? 5 years now?...

Sry man but they allready made more money then most producers with theyr game and mostly use the beta status as cheap excuse in my oppinion.

 

So a business is determined to be complete by the amount of money it makes, rather than the comepleteness status of the product? Pardon me for disagreeing, but a product is considered complete when it's not still being worked on in a major scale and having many of the core mechanics under construction and review.

 

Poor excuse? No, an excuse is an answer that only barely covers the situation, and has the connotation of being false and the tool of conniving little schemers. The game IS in beta, and as the game's core mechanics are under constant revision, this renders the beta state as a reason rather than an excuse.