Balance 2.0 - The Cost Of Power

[taiiat]

Though looking at the more recent weapons I do have to agree that they are balanced by their mechanics in a way. While leveling up the Angstrum I couldn't help but think to myself "this is actually a pretty balanced explosive gun, slow as all hell and inaccurate but with a ton of damage". So it's nice to see they're at least attempting to make the newer stuff not completely outrank their predecessors

i'm not really sure i'd say so there.

 

425Damage per projectile, and the standard Triplex Shot - puts it higher than Penta or Ogris. sure, it's not that accurate, but Enemies are normally in groups anyways.

 

so in most cases it will probably outperform. if we only compare to Ogris, it does more Damage over a wider area (with less dropoff since the centerpoints of the Explosions is all over the place, rather than just one Explosion), and it charges faster than Ogris does, with just Lethal Torrent which is one of those Mods you 'just equip'.

 

it's not out of hand, but it does feel above the other two Explosive Weapons in most situations.

[Paradoxbomb]

i'm not really sure i'd say so there.

 

425Damage per projectile, and the standard Triplex Shot - puts it higher than Penta or Ogris. sure, it's not that accurate, but Enemies are normally in groups anyways.

 

so in most cases it will probably outperform. if we only compare to Ogris, it does more Damage over a wider area (with less dropoff since the centerpoints of the Explosions is all over the place, rather than just one Explosion), and it charges faster than Ogris does, with just Lethal Torrent which is one of those Mods you 'just equip'.

 

it's not out of hand, but it does feel above the other two Explosive Weapons in most situations.

 

Maybe, I'll be honest I'm not too big on the explosive weapons so I'm not an aficionado with them, although with the Angstrum there is a lot of time between shots considering both the reload and actually charging the shots, not to mention the fact that you can't hold the charge makes it much easier to blow yourself up. That and the lack of accuracy really can make a difference unless you have a good position.

 

Personally I found the Ogris and Penta to be more "comfortable" to use, so I guess you can argue that the Angstrum offers more damage at the cost of ease of use, which is a step in the right direction at the very least.

 

 

EDIT: I could also just be terrible with the Angstrum :|

Edited May 21, 2014 by Paradoxbomb

[notionphil]

Maybe, I'll be honest I'm not too big on the explosive weapons so I'm not an aficionado with them, although with the Angstrum there is a lot of time between shots considering both the reload and actually charging the shots, not to mention the fact that you can't hold the charge makes it much easier to blow yourself up. That and the lack of accuracy really can make a difference unless you have a good position.

 

Personally I found the Ogris and Penta to be more "comfortable" to use, so I guess you can argue that the Angstrum offers more damage at the cost of ease of use, which is a step in the right direction at the very least.

 

 

EDIT: I could also just be terrible with the Angstrum :|

 

I find that I'm pretty 'terrible' with the Ang also. The fact that I can't hold-charge it prior to an encounter (entering a room etc) means that I have to either take a gamble and hope I'll have a shot within the next second...or wait for a visual, meaning my rockets frequently strike newly-warm enemy corpses...killed by one of my allies.

 

In a panic situation, I also sometimes repeatedly click the trigger, attempting to charge which results in the charge repeatedly resetting!

 

Also, firing a full volley downrange (such as at the door of a T3 def from the pod) results in a very significant spread...you're not getting full potential for certain.

 

I'm sure you can 'get gud' at the Ang, but to me that's a sign of balance. The obvious shots are fewer and more far-between than the Ogris, which is much more straightforward to use, albeit less outright powerful.

 

I'm not saying the numbers are spot-on, but the Angstrum is "arguably as combat effective" as its peers....great attempt at challenge-of-use balance IMO. +1 DE

[taiiat]

Also, firing a full volley downrange (such as at the door of a T3 def from the pod) results in a very significant spread...you're not getting full potential for certain.

not per Enemy, but as i mentioned, it's like a mildly weaker cluster fire rocket - there's a lot more Explosions per shot, so any Enemy within range is probably taking a lot more Damage, since Damage Falloff won't be as large an issue. 

 

you certainly won't be shooting 21 Rockets into one Enemy, but you can wipe entire Rooms easier, i find.

 

and Warframe gets a large portion of it's 'difficulty' from Enemy Numbers, moreso than pure survivability stats. which is not a bad thing, as the Enemies of old which were brick walls with legs were not interesting to fight.

 

 

but i suppose it's okay enough to not make a big deal out of it. 

 

 

IMO though, Angstrum seemed a lot cooler before i put Multishot on. sure, Multishot is more Dapplage, and that Charging bonus is nice, but the Weapon was 'cooler' before that. it was an accurate Explosive Gyrojet Pistol. 

[Paradoxbomb]

IMO though, Angstrum seemed a lot cooler before i put Multishot on. sure, Multishot is more Dapplage, and that Charging bonus is nice, but the Weapon was 'cooler' before that. it was an accurate Explosive Gyrojet Pistol. 

 

Quick-firing it makes it feel a bit like a Torgue Hand Cannon, which makes me wish they would make another one with slightly better accuracy and magazine size, but without the ability to charge-fire.

 

But I don't want to derail this thread, so I digress.

[KittyDarkling]

For now... just... +1 such +1

[Nightange1]

I truly appreciate such a well thought out breakdown of what is wrong with this game and how to correct, so great job to you guys! My only concern is how would DE decide on what weapons go into what tier? There are many unique weapons that are considered being part of a lesser tier compared to others, while some simply prefer the feel of one over the other. 

[notionphil]

I truly appreciate such a well thought out breakdown of what is wrong with this game and how to correct, so great job to you guys! My only concern is how would DE decide on what weapons go into what tier? There are many unique weapons that are considered being part of a lesser tier compared to others, while some simply prefer the feel of one over the other. 

 

This is a great point, which I will address in a future add-on to the post. You should be able to upgrade a weapon from one tier to another, via some arcane/costly mechanism.

 

EDIT - and thank you!

Edited May 21, 2014 by notionphil

[zoboso]

what do you think about half tiering a weapon because it doesn't neatly fit into tiers? for those weapons that are to facilitate jumping between tiers.

[taiiat]

You should be able to upgrade a weapon from one tier to another, via some arcane/costly mechanism.

i like.

 

what do you think about half tiering a weapon because it doesn't neatly fit into tiers? for those weapons that are to facilitate jumping between tiers.

perhaps.

[WhisperByte]

It would be really great if DEvs address this during the livestream. And since Scott won't be there maybe they won't avoid balance related questions this time.

 

Pfft who am I kidding :D

[Ammolds]

Yes, yes and yes.

 

Power through Skill > Power through Set values

 

Would reinforce the concept the Devs themselves have brought up: Easy to Learn. Hard to Master.

[.Czern]

I love your ideas!

Warframe definitely needs more diversity, I hope this topic will not be buried.

[notionphil]

Yes, yes and yes.

 

Power through Skill > Power through Set values

 

Would reinforce the concept the Devs themselves have brought up: Easy to Learn. Hard to Master.

 

I think we're starting to see that a bit more in design choices with new weapons - hopefully DE will see that the other 100+ older weapons could be 'retrofitted' to mirror that with a Trait system :)

[Calayne]

Every time I reread the OP, I jizz in my pants.

 

What about you?

 

The best part is, these traits aren't even the end. You can add more of them for more variety, more weapons, more niche roles. A gun that has 5 negative traits and five positive traits, maybe? That would be crazy, but I'd like to see something as whacked as that.

[Loswaith]

Alot of good points made by the op and others, unfortunatly this only hits on one aspect of 3 parts that contribute

 

The inherant balance of weapons you hit on here, as there really is no current baseline to weapon balancing.

 

Secondly and possibly the bigger issue being mods as they can make tier 1 weapons get to the insane levels of damage.  When you are talking 5k-9k DPS for level 1-15 opponents you are talking damage thats equivlent to 10+ opponents.

 

The third factor is the descrepency of the mod points a weapon can call on, a rank 30 weapon can have an effective mod point pool, starting at 30 and going up to 100 or more with catalysts and forma. (this could be seen as part of the second issue but even with balanced mods this would be an issue).

Edited May 22, 2014 by Loswaith

[notionphil]

Alot of good points made by the op and others, unfortunatly this only hits on one aspect of 3 parts that contribute

 

The inherant balance of weapons you hit on here, as there really is no current baseline to weapon balancing.

 

Secondly and possibly the bigger issue being mods as they can make tier 1 weapons get to the insane levels of damage.  When you are talking 5k-9k DPS for level 1-15 opponents you are talking damage thats equivlent to 10+ opponents.

 

The third factor is the descrepency of the mod points a weapon can call on, a rank 30 weapon can have an effective mod point pool, starting at 30 and going up to 100 or more with catalysts and forma. (this could be seen as part of the second issue but even with balanced mods this would be an issue).

 

Thanks for your comments.

 

My thinking is still evolving on Points 2 and 3. I see many positive outcomes from tightening the power curve, and reducing the disparities between a 'weaker' player and a 'stronger' player. It will make the game more skill based, etc.

 

However, one significant potential negative of flattening the curve for DE, and possibly many players, is that removing such gear dependance/gear checks may result in LESS focus on gear collection - that's pretty much what WF is all about right now. Gear checks force players into a gear acquisition mindset, which is central to DE's current revenue/retention model, especially for new players.

 

There are certainly ways of reconciling this model with a flatter progression curve - and when I figure one out that causes as little disruption to WF's ecosystem as possible, I will post it for feedback.

 

For now, I'd just say that I think it's OK to have large variance between players of different gear strengths as long as players are sufficiently motivated to seek out appropriately challenging content.

 

Currently, they are not, and my balance suggestion does not do enough to fully resolve that issue.

Edited May 22, 2014 by notionphil

[VDeorsum]

amazing, i love it!

[taiiat]

However, one significant potential negative of flattening the curve for DE, and possibly many players, is that removing such gear dependance/gear checks may result in LESS focus on gear collection - that's pretty much what WF is all about right now. Gear checks force players into a gear acquisition mindset, which is central to DE's current revenue/retention model, especially for new players.

 

 

For now, I'd just say that I think it's OK to have large variance between players of different gear strengths as long as players are sufficiently motivated to seek out appropriately challenging content.

 

Currently, they are not, and my balance suggestion does not do enough to fully resolve that issue.

- ye. Gear Checks are demonspawn. and makes a game less fun for everyone.

 

- i'm sketchy about letting players have large disparities between each other, but if they are incentivized to aim towards appropriate content for them, it can work.

that being said, i'd really rather players just be able to play almost all content without ever feeling over or under 'geared'. 

 

having new players move along kind've linearly through the solar map, exploring and finding bits of story here and there - but if a veteran does the same, preferably that player would also have a reasonable experience as well. 

 

scaling content to players is good in theory.... but i know there's a lot of danger there, and how badly it played out in Borderlands 2. it was great if you were solo - but if you were with a player even ONE level above or below you, whoever was the lower level would severely struggle in that match, while the other would be fine.

 

so idunno.

[BloodArmoredApostle]

their balance...this is a good thought i must admit. Great suggestion overall, but turning weapons into a detriment to use is like a FF way of doing things. Where equipping one weapon causes a status affect on user or less damage. Don't like the idea. I doubt a weapon's issues relying on that many factors to be effective. 

 

Maybe adding some innate attributes to some weapons is a cool idea, but negative affects for using something Tenno Crafted/Waith/Primed has no justification in parts of your post. I see what your bringing up is nice, but the game will turn into previous game sets like FF. Starting to get sort of a your suggesting negative effects as well as positives for using weapons. Simplicity is the key. I'm not too keen on your idea, but Good Work with your proposed suggestion though.

[Loswaith]

Thanks for your comments.

 

My thinking is still evolving on Points 2 and 3. I see many positive outcomes from tightening the power curve, and reducing the disparities between a 'weaker' player and a 'stronger' player. It will make the game more skill based, etc.

 

However, one significant potential negative of flattening the curve for DE, and possibly many players, is that removing such gear dependance/gear checks may result in LESS focus on gear collection - that's pretty much what WF is all about right now. Gear checks force players into a gear acquisition mindset, which is central to DE's current revenue/retention model, especially for new players.

 

There are certainly ways of reconciling this model with a flatter progression curve - and when I figure one out that causes as little disruption to WF's ecosystem as possible, I will post it for feedback.

 

For now, I'd just say that I think it's OK to have large variance between players of different gear strengths as long as players are sufficiently motivated to seek out appropriately challenging content.

 

Currently, they are not, and my balance suggestion does not do enough to fully resolve that issue.

I agree, however warframe simply needs to move away from the gear collection being the point of the game as well.

 

Look at a couple of other well known "gear collection" games.  Borderlands (1/2) and Diablo 2 (cant really comment on 3 as I never played it).  The gear collection in those games is ancilliary to playing the game for other reasons (though it can be the purpose too), typically quests or the story and the fun.  Even then if you find a good weapon in either eairly on, you basically throw away hundreds of other weapons before you really get any kind of actual 'upgrade'.  Warframe uses mods for this random aspect.

 

In this case less focus on gear collection is a good thing, as a focus on gear collection typically means a focus on farming (and excessive farming leading to grind).  Unfortunatly as it stands the gear treadmill is the crutch to keep us playing while we wait for the real story/purpose to play (other than to have fun).  Flatening out the curve actually means we need the actual story/quest/whatever purpose to keep us playing rather than the hunt for X or Y better/new weapon/mod/warframe.

Edited May 23, 2014 by Loswaith

[Thelonious]

As long as DE uses self-empowerement as a selling argument, any balancing process is pointless.

 

I mean, there are lots of weapon balancing variables to work with already: base phyiscal damage type distribution (slash/puncture/impact), damage per bullet, fire rate, reload speed, mag size, max ammo, accuracy, recoil, range, crit chance, crit damage, status chance, projectile type, trigger type, base elemental damage...

(I'm probably forgetting some here)

 

You can laready create an almost infinite variance of weapons with very close performance/efficiency and very different playstyle/niche, and that's what DE has been doing so far.

 

Except sometimes they don't, they screw up and release a weapon waaaaaaaaay over/under the "balanced" spectrum. 

 

And sometimes my tinfoil hat whispers me it's not totally unintentionnal...

 

 - Last Prime access: Boltor Prime twice the damage of the normal boltor, no drawback.

Rhino Prime 25% faster, no drawback.

And those were obtainable with real money...and because of that, you can't make them High MR requirement gear (I think they're both rank 2) without hurting the sale numbers. 

And the huge upgrade they represent is such a powerful selling argument to boost your sales at the same time. Not to mention skipping the horrible rng-dependant grind...

In short, Prime access gear wouldn't fit well in a tiering system, as long as they're straight upgrades. And if they're not straight upgrades, fewer players would buy.

 

Other examples that come to mind: Soma, or Brakk, or Marelok . They were toned down a bit afterwise, but still, the gross imbalance at release was obvious.

How they came to be released in the first place is still a mystery for anyone any good at theorycrafting.

That's just pure Power Creep. Period. You can find all the excuses in the world (they're hard to get, they're high-MR...), it still doesn't change the fact that they're way over the top.

 

And meanwhile you have the opposite kind of weapons: weapons that suck, no matter how hard you try and mod them. The weapon feedback is filled with those, won't even bother to find examples.

 

Problem is, with a playerbase founded on principles of self-empowerement through progression, gear-based gameplay, etc, etc, that now the community is split between those who crave for moar, and those who realized after a while that progression is a pointless, endless, vicious circle, and crave for depth. 

And DE has to catter to both those sides of the spectrum, while anything they do for one side will deplease the other:

Buff stuff? the community cries that everything is OP and the game is to easy

Nerf stuff? the community cries the everything is weak and fun is gone.

Balance everything on an even ground? the community cries that everything is the same and the game is blend.

 

Tough work they have. But they only have to blame themselves for that imo. They gave us OPness in the first place. And now they can't take it back.

[taiiat]

And those were obtainable with real money...and because of that, you can't make them High MR requirement gear (I think they're both rank 2) without hurting the sale numbers.

 

Tough work they have. But they only have to blame themselves for that imo. They gave us OPness in the first place. And now they can't take it back.

- any item you purchase 'with platinum', you don't need to think about the Mastery Requirement of. you just get it. so this is not relevant for Prime Access. or any monetary purchases. (unless Prime Access is not applicable to this, but i have no reason to think it isn't)

 

- no. Digital Extremes is not required to stick with those bad decisions. i don't want this to turn into another Dungeon Defenders. Digital Extremes always has the choice to fix their mistakes. saying they can't because some players won't like it is in other words saying you'd rather see your game die, than fix your game to be proud of your own product.

Dungeon Defenders did just this. huge Power Creep was released accidentally. the answer was to just Stat Creep from then on in Dungeon Defenders, instead of just deleting the accidental items and keeping a game that had a progression trend.

 

Dungeon Defenders ended up becoming a stat grinding simulator, and the game ended up drowning under it's own weight. players got bored of nothing to do but grind nested RNG walls (hah, Warframe players complaining about random drops, that's cute), rather than content that fit into the games' story and gameplay up until that point.

 

that wasn't the first or last game that will make this fundamental mistake, and drown itself. 

 

Warframe doesn't need to. if Digital Extremes chooses to, it's their fault they didn't intervene.

Edited May 23, 2014 by taiiat

[CBAROG]

- any item you purchase 'with platinum', you don't need to think about the Mastery Requirement of. you just get it. so this is not relevant for Prime Access. or any monetary purchases. (unless Prime Access is not applicable to this, but i have no reason to think it isn't)

 

- no. Digital Extremes is not required to stick with those bad decisions. i don't want this to turn into another Dungeon Defenders. Digital Extremes always has the choice to fix their mistakes. saying they can't because some players won't like it is in other words saying you'd rather see your game die, than fix your game to be proud of your own product.

Dungeon Defenders did just this. huge Power Creep was released accidentally. the answer was to just Stat Creep from then on in Dungeon Defenders, instead of just deleting the accidental items and keeping a game that had a progression trend.

 

Dungeon Defenders ended up becoming a stat grinding simulator, and the game ended up drowning under it's own weight. players got bored of nothing to do but grind nested RNG walls (hah, Warframe players complaining about random drops, that's cute), rather than content that fit into the games' story and gameplay up until that point.

 

that wasn't the first or last game that will make this fundamental mistake, and drown itself. 

 

Warframe doesn't need to. if Digital Extremes chooses to, it's their fault they didn't intervene.

This so much.

[LukeAura]

You can laready create an almost infinite variance of weapons with very close performance/efficiency and very different playstyle/niche, and that's what DE has been doing so far.

 

And sometimes my tinfoil hat whispers me it's not totally unintentionnal...

They have been. But this basically standardizes, streamlines and makes the process of infinite variance retroactively applicable. And even allows for more variance by being able to create the exact same weapon and then swapping around some of the flags so that it can function entirely differently. Because 90% of weapons up until now basically had the same role as many other guns, regardless of stat variations. The latest 10% that don't, aren't really going to make up for it unless they do something to fix them all.

One day, we will be able to cast off our tinfoil hats, and our luxurious golden locks will spill forth like an ocean of gold unafraid of the hats of tin that have squashed their radiance. -whatamieventalkingabout-