Balance 2.0 - The Cost Of Power

[Thelonious]

snip

 

 - Mastery locks you from buying even with Plat actually. But it's not something veterans would notice.

I guess if you'd buy a Prime Access pack as a rank 0, you wouldn't be able to claim/use your gear. That's just a guess, it's not much of an issue anyway, since achieving rank 2 is relatively fast and easy(like 10 hours maybe?).

 

But if a real tiering system was implemented, and some of the gear in Prime Acess required higher mastery, like say 6-7 (as some very powerful prime weapons should have been in the first place), it means you can't sell Prime Access packs to players lower than that.

That's a lot of potential customers lost. And a looooooooot of money.

 

 - Sorry if I sounded a bit pessimistic. I would love for DE to change their monetization strategy. And that's what they're trying to achieve by releasing less and less weapons, and more and more purely cosmetic items.

But the issue I wanted to underline is that a big chunk of the playerbase got used to that power creep trend. It doesn't bother them as much as the people discussing in this very thread.

I've read arguments saying that power creep is a natural process of any progression game, and that the game would lose most of its appeal without any of it. It's a very common argument.

They want Power Creep. More than that, they need Power Creep to keep playing the game. They want to feel powerful.

 

I'm gonna draw a raw stereotype here: The kind of players that have been abusing perma-invincibility with Trinity, or spamming M-Prime/Stomp with a five forma Boltor-P. They just like to blow stuff entire rooms with the press of a button, and they feel great about it. That's what fun means for them. It's a game about ninjas fighting armies of enemies, running and jumping around guns blazing after all, who could blame them when the whole game revolves around that? I certainly don't, I admit the game is very satisfying in that matter.

Balance and Challenge? psshhh, just synonyms of boredom. "Don't nerf my fun"

 

I don't see how that would change.

Maybe when DE finally gets tired of rebalancing the whole game every 3 or 4 months, which is much more work than releasing a few power creepy weapons/frames.

 

And would cosmetics be enough to keep such a playerbase anyway?

 

I'm just a bit skeptical, that's it.

Edited May 23, 2014 by Thelonious

[taiiat]

And would cosmetics be enough to keep such a playerbase anyway?

the fact that THE most successful Video Games on this planet utilize monetization strategies that don't involve Stat Creep and don't tie visuals to Stats - proves that there's more than enough customers to support a good Video Game.

 

in fact, i'd wager there's more customers for what i just described than what you just described. 

 

as much as i hate to use MOBA's as an example, supposedly they're very balanced (not that i believe it), but more importantly, each game often has atleast half a million active users EVERY SINGLE DAY. and purportedly there isn't higher stats every week to keep players hooked. 

 

compare that to Warframes' ~20,000 per day.

 

Edit:

f*cking autoformatting - sigh.

Edit2:

oh my god. autoformatting please stop breaking my posts.

Edited May 23, 2014 by taiiat

[Calayne]

I just had a small brain fart:

 

Why don't we tie this Tiering of weapons to our Mastery Rank?

 

I'm not sure if you've mentioned it, but I think this is a good opportunity to present a tiering system that works hand-in-hand with our Mastery Rank, and make it feel more like progression, rather than just plateauing at certain Mastery Ranks for phat lewt, and then becoming absolutely boring again. 

 

For example, Tier 0 weapons will be MR0 weapons, and Tier 1 weapons will be MR1 weapons, and so on, and all of the weapons in the game will have their own brackets, modified according to whatever is appropriate for that Mastery Rank. It's basically the same idea, but stretched out far more. Even if there's only six to nine weapons, two or three in each of Primary, Secondary and Melee, this will present at least some additional choices each Mastery Rank you grow. Of course, the total of the amount of prior Mastery weapons must still have a sizeable portion of weapons to allow you to proceed to the next Rank.

 

I think if this were the case, weapons should naturally tend towards having more traits, either positives or negatives, to further increase the need for skill, as you progress higher in Mastery Ranks. 

 

For example: MR0, Burston, a good all-round weapon that can basically be used anywhere. Almost no positive or negative traits. MR6, Lanka, a sniper rifle with benefits at long range, has no scope during hip-fire though accuracy is perfect, high damage, punchthrough, charging required.

 

Lanka would then be a high DPS gun, but requiring much higher skill, but that's assumed, since you're using it at MR6. So the weirder the weapon, the more damage it does, and the higher the Mastery Rank required.

 

I do wonder about upgrading weapons, though. I wish that were an available mechanism, "Reforging" your gun with better equipment. It would need to be expensive, though, as notion previously mentioned. I imagine about a few hours worth of farming, a day or two of wait, and voila, a MR1 Burston would appropriately increased damage ratio. 

 

The Primes and upgraded versions will still have an advantage in that they already start off more powerful, and will still be more powerful, even if, say, there's a MR2 Burston Prime and MR2 Burston. It's basically a somewhat higher dps, higher skill-level requirement weapon.

 

The "Reforging" should be capped by your current Mastery Rank, and the damage increase should be logarithmic, meaning that the damage bonus would taper off at higher Mastery Ranks. This would somewhat hinder power creep, considering our already-messed-up, power-creeping-mods. But I feel this gives us the ability to bring low level weapons we love to high-end content. 

 

Alternatively, this could be a "Focus" system. Gain enough "Focus" points after you Rank 30 it, you can perhaps choose to sacrifice all that experience to bump it up a tier, or something. 

 

Cause to be frank, I really like the Gorgon. And the Grakata. And the Burston. And the Lato.

 

... And the Skana. 

[taiiat]

Alternatively, this could be a "Focus" system. Gain enough "Focus" points after you Rank 30 it, you can perhaps choose to sacrifice all that experience to bump it up a tier, or something. 

i like.

[WhisperByte]

While the Tenno ship looked awesome it's kinda sad that weapon balance wasn't adressed at all

[Aggh]

the fact that THE most successful Video Games on this planet utilize monetization strategies that don't involve Stat Creep and don't tie visuals to Stats - proves that there's more than enough customers to support a good Video Game.

 

in fact, i'd wager there's more customers for what i just described than what you just described. 

 

as much as i hate to use MOBA's as an example, supposedly they're very balanced (not that i believe it), but more importantly, each game often has atleast half a million active users EVERY SINGLE DAY. and purportedly there isn't higher stats every week to keep players hooked. 

 

compare that to Warframes' ~20,000 per day.

 

Edit:

f*cking autoformatting - sigh.

Edit2:

oh my god. autoformatting please stop breaking my posts.

You're conflating concurrent users (the amount of players playing at a specific time) with daily users, not that it matters since LOL peaks at 7.5 million concurrent players and averaged 27 million daily back in January :|

 

Mind you only a handful of games (of any kind) approach those kinds of numbers so it's not necessarily a safe assumption that their model will work for everyone.  For example, LOL has a huge esports scene that helps drive twitch viewership and interest in the game; warframe will never have that.

Edited May 23, 2014 by Aggh

[lautalocos]

love it. have a  +1

 

but, there is still a problem.

in the long run, high firerate weapons are better than slow firing rate weapons.

 

this is because in high level missions (im not speaking of wave defense 100, as some people do, i speak of saturn, or even earth in normal missions) there are way too many enemies.

as an example, the vectis will surely kill enemies in one shot, but before you reload, an automatic weapon will kill another 3 enemies. i don´t think that the trait system can balance this on it´s own.

 

i think warframe needs more powerfull but less enemies, but im not speaking only of health and damage, i speak too of synergies between them.

 

as an example, if infested where more resilient, infested healers would actually be a threat, but because the infested die in 1 or 2 shots, they are quite weak

[Calayne]

love it. have a +1

but, there is still a problem.

in the long run, high firerate weapons are better than slow firing rate weapons.

this is because in high level missions (im not speaking of wave defense 100, as some people do, i speak of saturn, or even earth in normal missions) there are way too many enemies.

as an example, the vectis will surely kill enemies in one shot, but before you reload, an automatic weapon will kill another 3 enemies. i don´t think that the trait system can balance this on it´s own.

i think warframe needs more powerfull but less enemies, but im not speaking only of health and damage, i speak too of synergies between them.

as an example, if infested where more resilient, infested healers would actually be a threat, but because the infested die in 1 or 2 shots, they are quite weak

Actually, I think we may soon be getting more of those beefcakes.

Snipers and high single-damage weapons are good for big things. Your argument is right in that we have very, very few big things, and most of our enemies are small things in great number.

However, judging by the recent enemy submissions... let's just say we're going to see a whole different pound of beef.

Edited May 24, 2014 by Calayne

[WhisperByte]

Well according to Hot Topics mods are getting some balancing but still no sign of committing to weapon balancing. Still no clearly defined tiers...

[(PSN)Dan_The_Noob]

TL;DR  but the term "overpowered" is not usually used with its literal meaning in mind anymore... it's more the word used for "very powerful" because vocabularies and the art of conversation has declined in the last decade, roflcopterz

[notionphil]

Actually, I think we may soon be getting more of those beefcakes.

Snipers and high single-damage weapons are good for big things. Your argument is right in that we have very, very few big things, and most of our enemies are small things in great number.

However, judging by the recent enemy submissions... let's just say we're going to see a whole different pound of beef.

Yes and as a few such as xylia alluded to earlier in this thread, part of making metrics other than TTK valuable is creating gameplay situations where different weapons shine. While Traits could do this some on their own, more distinct enemy types + traits would be an incredibly effective way to add unique value to weapons.

[notionphil]

TL;DR  but the term "overpowered" is not usually used with its literal meaning in mind anymore... it's more the word used for "very powerful" because vocabularies and the art of conversation has declined in the last decade, roflcopterz

In my best estimation, (and I've been here a while), people in the WF community use the word overpowered to mean "too powerful, to the extent that it outclasses alternates or trivializes content".

[Feallike]

+1 very well DE i really think you should consider this.

[Calayne]

Yes and as a few such as xylia alluded to earlier in this thread, part of making metrics other than TTK valuable is creating gameplay situations where different weapons shine. While Traits could do this some on their own, more distinct enemy types + traits would be an incredibly effective way to add unique value to weapons.

 

Fortunately, we're definitely heading in the right direction when it comes to enemies. The Developers even specifically said that not only the winners will be implemented, and the other ideas that they like may be adopted as well. Perhaps it's just a matter of "When", that we vote.

 

Either way, I'm excited to see how we'll end the year in Warframe! :D

[notionphil]

I agree, however warframe simply needs to move away from the gear collection being the point of the game as well.

 

Look at a couple of other well known "gear collection" games.  Borderlands (1/2) and Diablo 2 (cant really comment on 3 as I never played it).  The gear collection in those games is ancilliary to playing the game for other reasons (though it can be the purpose too), typically quests or the story and the fun.  Even then if you find a good weapon in either eairly on, you basically throw away hundreds of other weapons before you really get any kind of actual 'upgrade'.  Warframe uses mods for this random aspect.

 

In this case less focus on gear collection is a good thing, as a focus on gear collection typically means a focus on farming (and excessive farming leading to grind).  Unfortunatly as it stands the gear treadmill is the crutch to keep us playing while we wait for the real story/purpose to play (other than to have fun).  Flatening out the curve actually means we need the actual story/quest/whatever purpose to keep us playing rather than the hunt for X or Y better/new weapon/mod/warframe.

 

Though I'd argue the gear collection is the entire game in the Diablo series (barring the first playthough), Borderlands does an excellent job of tying the story to gameplay.

 

It's worth mentioning that the randomized stats aspect of gear collection creates a different farming dynamic - when there is no 'perfect' item and everything has RNG tradeoffs, it makes the acqisition feel more constant and less "oh i need this one last thing then I'll be done". It also makes it so every drop has potential value, instead of an enemy having one scripted good drop and 99 drops you don't want.

 

6 or so livestreams ago, Steve expressed his frustration with losing the randomized stat aspect on mods/gear. The WF mod/gear leveling system really doesn't play well with RNG (which is surprising, bc the rest of the game literally kneels to it).

 

However, I feel like the Trait system I propose here provides a mechanic which could be used to introduced crafted/randomized stats in some way. For example, Serrations might RNG drop with various traits attached. Or a trait could be crafted onto a weapon with a series of rare, specialized drops (which would also raise the weapon one Tier - obviously wouldn't work on Endgame weapons).

[ObviousLee]

told you that you'd get a lotta support for this phil, as it's a beautifully laid out design. Hopefully DE will take a serious look at this and give us some feedback.

 

 

i still maintain that we should have damage sliders in the arsenal that allows us to not so much boost damage as with mods, but adjust damage to our preference. I.E: s/p/i/ - 10/10/10 and then adjust it to say 5/15/10 or even 5/5/20. just give us a smidgeon of control over how our guns operate, maybe that can be tied into traits as well?

[notionphil]

told you that you'd get a lotta support for this phil, as it's a beautifully laid out design. Hopefully DE will take a serious look at this and give us some feedback.

 

 

i still maintain that we should have damage sliders in the arsenal that allows us to not so much boost damage as with mods, but adjust damage to our preference. I.E: s/p/i/ - 10/10/10 and then adjust it to say 5/15/10 or even 5/5/20. just give us a smidgeon of control over how our guns operate, maybe that can be tied into traits as well?

 

Thanks! I wish there were a bit more discussion on it but the support is still nice nonetheless.

 

I think those finer points of customization, such as damage type/proc split (and adding traits) should be added in a weapon crafting metagame...along with some randomized loot elements.

 

I'm still developing my thinking on crafting/randomized loot/customization...but I definitely sense another big post coming on :D

[CBAROG]

Well, usually people discuss things that need improvement, tweaks etc... But here.... It's so perfect there's nothing to add. Sorry, but discussing perfect things is pointless actually. Next time make mistakes or something and you will have discussion. :D

[taiiat]

Well, usually people discuss things that need improvement, tweaks etc... But here.... It's so perfect there's nothing to add. Sorry, but discussing perfect things is pointless actually. Next time make mistakes or something and you will have discussion. :D

lol'd

[TwoCrabs]

WHY ARE WE NOT FUNDING THIS!?

[Naphiro]

MK1 OP. Please nerf.

[TwoCrabs]

I think melees should have traits too
maybe when they are channelling?
some weapons could get a damage buff of 50%(like it is right now)and  some a speed/crit/status/range(?) buff :D
this would make many melees more viable and interesting for me
heavy melees would get the damage increase and things like the ichors a higher crit mulitplyer maybe?
dunno, just anything to make them different :D

[Lag_Killed_You_Not_Me]

I'll admit I didn't get past Section 2 (I should be working!) but so far I like what I've read.

An idea for Akimbo weapon traits: the guns lose right click aiming and get -> right click fires right gun / left click fires left gun.

They should also do that for the Tigris.

Left click/left barrel. Right click/right barrel.

Also wouldn't hurt to give it some buffs while they are at it.

[notionphil]

I think melees should have traits too

maybe when they are channelling?

some weapons could get a damage buff of 50%(like it is right now)and  some a speed/crit/status/range(?) buff :D

this would make many melees more viable and interesting for me

heavy melees would get the damage increase and things like the ichors a higher crit mulitplyer maybe?

dunno, just anything to make them different :D

 

This is a great point. I didn't add any melee traits because....well, because I actually wrote this before melee 2.0 and just sat on it for a while :D

 

There is an excellent thread on channeling modifiers for weapons floating around. I also think that each melee weapon should have its own 'gap closing' charge attack, unique to that weapon. Those and other trait like options could help balance melee weapons.

 

I'll think more on this, thanks for the feedback.

[Dwagon]

Excellent analysis and post, but given DE's needs and monetization schema; this is ultimately futile.

 

The problem is: DE is reliant on player investment to drive revenue, and most of that investment is in weapons.

 

Just the mere existence of the Orokin Catalyst throws a HUGE wrench into the neatly crafted system you've provided (one that I agree with on principle; one that would deserve a better game than Warframe IMO); it's an object that literally DOUBLES the potential of any weapon, and easily one of the most consistent sellers (for platinum) in the game.

 

There is no nice way to reconcile such sweeping changes.

Either the massive Nerf-Storm hits the arsenal, and devalues purchases/effort, or we continue along this merry ride of Power Creep Monotony.