Should We Keep The Design Council Out Community Event?

[RyojinOrion]

I don't usually use 'lol' but I am actually lol-ing. The DC is full of short fused morons. We are plenty...as you say it...crude. 

 

If the posts I see around the forums by founders of the appropriate rank are any indication, then yeah, I can believe that one.

 

 

I never really liked the idea of a 'Design Council'. If you're gonna give players a say, then give all players a say.

[PsychedelicSnake]

If the posts I see around the forums by founders of the appropriate rank are any indication, then yeah, I can believe that one.

 

 

I never really liked the idea of a 'Design Council'. If you're gonna give players a say, then give all players a say.

I'd prefer if they are going to give players a say, it should be players that actually know the tricks of the trade and know what they are talking about.

[Hyperius]

I'd prefer if they are going to give players a say, it should be players that actually know the tricks of the trade and know what they are talking about.

 

I can see that being more of intern status, which I'd gladly apply for.

 

NDA, game credit, access to test servers...the works.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Hyperius

[OniDax]

I'd prefer if they are going to give players a say, it should be players that actually know the tricks of the trade and know what they are talking about.

 

And you judge that how exactly?

[PsychedelicSnake]

And you judge that how exactly?

No idea. Just an idea. At least preferable, in my opinion. If I were to think of something off the top of my head...

 

I can see that being more of intern status, which I'd gladly apply for.

 

NDA, game credit, access to test servers...the works.

[CrimsonPorpoise]

And you judge that how exactly?

 

Forum users with active contributions and provides good feedback on the aspects of the game. Or artists whom have provided good concepts for DE to work with. Just my two cents.

[notlamprey]

In the early days of my community membership, I definitely made the mistake of thinking that Players' opinions weren't valued highly enough.

As time goes by, I find myself thinking "DE should really just go with what they want on this one; forget the community" more and more often.

Granted, I won't always agree with the choices DE makes (Argon Crystals feel SO badly handled), but I'm beginning to feel that community suggestions require more work from DE to polish and iterate on than their own original ideas.

[OniDax]

Forum users with active contributions and provides good feedback on the aspects of the game. Or artists whom have provided good concepts for DE to work with. Just my two cents.

 

Good feedback? But what determines whether that feedback is based on "knowing what they're talking about"? Should you have a degree in whatever you want to help make a decision on? Should you have to prove you know how to create elaborate 3d models or draw to give feedback on artistic decisions? Because that's what happens when you limit it to people who "know what they're talking about". And when you have some separate beta testing group that makes the decisions, at the end of the day it's no different than the Design Council. It's another rather exclusive group that may or may not be making the "best" decisions.

 

notlamprey, I'm kinda of the same thought that DE should just do what they want to do.

[RyojinOrion]

Good feedback? But what determines whether that feedback is based on "knowing what they're talking about"? Should you have a degree in whatever you want to help make a decision on? Should you have to prove you know how to create elaborate 3d models or draw to give feedback on artistic decisions? Because that's what happens when you limit it to people who "know what they're talking about". And when you have some separate beta testing group that makes the decisions, at the end of the day it's no different than the Design Council. It's another rather exclusive group that may or may not be making the "best" decisions.

 

This is more or less what I was gonna say, but said a bit better than I was gonna say it.

[Zachles]

I can see why we're not involved more though. There are a lot of people in design council that really shouldn't be making decisions that impact the game.

Truer words have never been said, like, ever.

[RahuHordika]

The add to the point of DC.... well, incompetence at making choices... most folks here surely didn't know of the whole Cargo MOA bs that happened during the Corpus voting. If there isn't a more prime example of why DE shouldn't leave crucial design choices in the hands of players then I don't know what is.

Edited June 6, 2014 by RahuStalker

[inthephonebox]

I'd prefer if they are going to give players a say, it should be players that actually know the tricks of the trade and know what they are talking about.

I agree with this, and I'll address the concerns that followed this remark. An exclusive community that interacts with the development team is a wonderful idea that more game developers should acknowledge. Game developers at times get too wrapped up in their own ideas, thinking their way is perfect, and do not consider the ideas of the community which plays the game. But basing opinions simply on the vocal minority leads to poorly thought out concepts, a lack of balance, and decisions made on glam factor; all of which we've seen in the design council. Rather that choosing that exclusive community based on the amount of money players spend, or even the sheer number of posts players have on the forums, a development team that truly wants to interact with it's gaming community should form a design council of sorts based on well written and thoroughly thought out responses and suggestions. They of course would make the determination as to what is 'thoroughly thought out' and 'well written' but that is their right as the game designers to form a council of players that consistently vocalize ideas and criticisms both in line with the development team while challenging their choices in a manner that is presented with the games welfare in mind. In my opinion, simply being able to draw, or even render 3d models, isn't enough to make informed decisions on gameplay mechanics. The DC has seen plenty of great visual concepts ruined by a lack of gameplay insight. Players' art suggestions should certainly be kept in mind, but their skill at drawing does not necessarily mean they can think critically about game design and balance. On the other hand, players that have 7000 posts also don't necessarily have the critical thinking skills and gaming experience to make design decisions. I've seen plenty of great ideas from players with only a couple hundred posts and plenty of terrible ideas from players with several thousand posts. And finally, I think the select few players who make it on this 'council', and I do mean few, should be compensated as outsider consultants, whether as interns or simply with game credits. A good development team should not be afraid of expanding on that team. Its been said on here that the more people working on a game the less cohesive that game becomes, but I disagree, as long as each person in the growing development team understands the original development team's overall ideas. 

/4am. hope this makes as much sense as it does in my head.

[Aggh]

Personally I don't think it should have been left to the design council at all.  I've seen some of the discussion from some design council threads.  It's embarrassing to see how few people actually understood what they were talking about and how far incredibly bad designs made it in the voting process.  Opening the voting process would have at least produced more intelligent discussion, if only because the discussion and voting would have been open to more people.

 

What would be hilarious would be if they had banned players that posted nonsense like "WOOO [insert submission name]" from voting in future design events.

 

Also, if it is kept to design council again, imo all people whose submissions are chosen should at least be temporarily (though I don't see why it shouldn't be permanent) added to the design council.  The fact that some players could defend their designs in discussion (and did so vehemently) and others could not didn't seem very fair.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Aggh

[YashiroSora]

I for one am hand-picked, and the more recent topics in there are more... civilised. It would be fine, if DE sent links to random people to select on the final polls, so it is not biased, and can be anybody. Say, pick 1000 people to vote.(Of course randomized by the RNG-selector)

Edited June 6, 2014 by YashiroSora

[Mirriky]

I have found the value of comments in the DC is a lot richer that the public posts.

They are keeping it active by inviting forum posters who contribute a lot in to help out too.

[Mirriky]

Personally I don't think it should have been left to the design council at all.  I've seen some of the discussion from some design council threads.  It's embarrassing to see how few people actually understood what they were talking about and how far incredibly bad designs made it in the voting process.

Admittedly there are still a lot of dumb users.

 

 

I like the Design Council idea, but I don't trust their decisions. I'm sorry, but currently my impression of the DC is that they are mostly made up of Founders, whom might not know what is best for the game. I do understand that DE is inviting players with active contributions to the forums into the DC, but they might not be well versed enough in game design to make the right decision too. I would like DE to take their votes and suggestions as suggestions. If a popular idea is a bad one, DE should reject it and not go ahead simply beacuse the DC voted on it. 

 

I agree here. Such as the infested voting, there were a lot of amazing mechanics voted out early because they didn't have artwork to go with them.

Edited June 6, 2014 by cam-o-flage20

[Aggh]

Admittedly there are still a lot of dumb users.

True, that's why I'd rather just brute force the process in the hope that we'll at least get some more intelligent discussion via the sheer force of numbers.  From what I've seen there were at best a handful of people in each thread that had even the slightest clue about what they were talking about.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Aggh

[Mirriky]

True, that's why I'd rather just brute force the process in the hope that we'll at least get some more intelligent discussion via the sheer force of numbers.  From what I've seen there were at best a handful of people in each thread that had even the slightest clue about what they were talking about.

 

Less polls, more discussion. I think this would help improve things when people have to back up their opinions beyond a click of a button.

[SilentCynic]

I think we can summarize this discussion thus:

A. Just because you spent money doesn't mean you know jack S#&$ about game design.

B. The open community, as a whole, isn't necessarily much better. As an eloquent individual said previously, game design shouldn't be a democracy, at least not when you take into account the amount of individuals who'd be voting without real experience and thought.

 

Logic would dictate that the best solution, if DE was bent on some manner of community interaction in the design process, would be to cherry-pick a few individuals as consultants, for lack of a better term. That, however, has its own consequences and pitfalls that I won't delve into now.

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

I think we can summarize this discussion thus:

A. Just because you spent money doesn't mean you know jack S#&$ about game design.

B. The open community, as a whole, isn't necessarily much better. As an eloquent individual said previously, game design shouldn't be a democracy, at least not when you take into account the amount of individuals who'd be voting without real experience and thought.

 

Logic would dictate that the best solution, if DE was bent on some manner of community interaction in the design process, would be to cherry-pick a few individuals as consultants, for lack of a better term....

Nicely done, my line of thinking exactly and what I've been saying for awhile now.

Edited June 6, 2014 by -SLX-J3tAc3

[Aggh]

Less polls, more discussion. I think this would help improve things when people have to back up their opinions beyond a click of a button.

I like that. If people want to make their opinion count towards building a consensus, they should be willing to actually discuss the topic at hand. This would clean out a lot of the brain dead "pretty picture" and "woot" votes. It would take more work on DE's part compared to just having a poll, but imo it'd be worth it. Edited June 6, 2014 by Aggh

[Wiegraf]

The end decision should remain with DE and DE alone. At best, the Design Council is more like a "Preview Council" in seeing a few of the things that'll make it to the game first (and then leaked to Tumbler like 5 minutes later).

 

Most of the votes for a while have been on minor things like new sound/voice sets for the Infested Ancient. Really, it's more like DE gets to build a car from the ground up then the DC gets to pick what color the fluffy dice will be.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Wiegraf

[Joyfulmama]

The Design Council isn't just made up of Founders

[inthephonebox]

The problem I have with DE's approach to community involvement is that it's kind of half-assed, for lack of a better term. They claim to want our input but yet there is very little DE presence on the forums, especially in the DC. Throughout the recent Enemies of the Tenno polls, and I made sure to read most to all of the pages of each thread, I don't recall ever seeing a DE address any of the concerns brought up within them; and there were many. I suppose that can be attributed to them no wanting to bias the votes, but a developers insight is just what is needed when weighing voting decisions. And frankly, most people don't bother to read the comments before they vote. Either they are set on their own and vote accordingly, or they are open to persuasion and read the thread, in which case every side should be heard, including that of DE. In fact, I think it would be good policy to post a sandbox thread, with DE members participating in the discussion, days before opening the polls, to give players time to digest the decision they need to make and listen to reasoning, by players and developers alike, before making decisions. 

All in all, If DE really wants to make their game design a collaborative effort, they need to be more collaborative. In the DC and general forums, and even in in-game chats, DE should have a team of developers/interns/community outreach personnel/etc. engaging with players, offering their own insights and suggestions, answering questions, and attempting to correct non-constructive remarks (like 'WOOT's)

Right now the community involvement feels insincere and half-baked. I personally think DE should decide to either to proceed like every other game developer and make their own game on their own (albeit while staying aware of player concerns) or create a true community collaboration team which actively engages in the discussions, especially in the DC; before, during, and after polls. 

[inthephonebox]

The end decision should remain with DE and DE alone. At best, the Design Council is more like a "Preview Council" in seeing a few of the things that'll make it to the game first (and then leaked to Tumbler like 5 minutes later).

 

Most of the votes for a while have been on minor things like new sound/voice sets for the Infested Ancient. Really, it's more like DE gets to build a car from the ground up then the DC gets to pick what color the fluffy dice will be.

I would have to disagree with this. That is how it should be, but it's not how it is currently. And really, sounds and animations are a lot more to a game than fuzzy dice are to a car. They are rather important features. And throughout the game's lifespan, especially recently, the DC has been given authority over core game essentials, like frames, abilities, weapons, enemies, and names. Those are huge parts of the game left up to 'rich kids' to decide, with what feels like little oversight from DE. Honestly, I often question DE's judgement when it comes to what even makes it to the polls.