Grindwalls In General

[low1991]

Token system. TOKEN SYSTEM! How many ways do we have to repeat ourselves?

 

It does not have be all one currency...it can be divided into tiers too....

While doing that.

Remove all specific mission from Tier  Key.

No more D/C/S/MD/I T1/2/3 key, now all T1/2/3 key which allow us to access any kinda of mission of that tier.

[Wereduck_of_Arrakis]

I suppose due to me being one who's bashed my skull repeatedly against Roguelikes I'm not always super bothered by the RNG.

 

Doesn't mean that even someone as deranged as me can't see that it's getting too bloated however.  Grindwalls are of course a sort of necessity, but having such a pure RNG does honestly remove the feeling of reward when you think about it.  You didn't finally acquire X because you are skilled, you got it because the dice allowed you to.  Oxium is an example of a mostly good grindwall, Argon is an example of a mostly bad one.

 

We definitely need some sort of shift to a pseudo RNG system (some have been mentioned already) that either rewards dedication or skill somehow.  The downside here is that such a system would need to cause our drops to be individualized, and that's not really a downside.

 

Edited because I typed Zephyr where I should've typed Oxium.

Not at all sure that would require individualized drops. It would probably be simpler to average the drop-biases of the team, even easier if the system simply used the drop-bias of whoever got the kill shot. Downside is that we'd still get useless junk if our teammates needed it but we'd also be able to stack the bonus, like with multiple deathmarks. Regardless, it would be an improvement.

[(PSN)Big_Rig_Brently]

Grind is good n all...

But playing the same dang missions over and over and over isn't.

THEN STOP, GO RUN ANOTHER MISSION TYPE. THEY ARE NO FORCEING YOU TO FARM ALL THE PARTS IN ONE DAY....YOU ARE AND THEN YOU COME ON HERE AND CRY ABOUT IT.

[Dalu__Ka]

THEN STOP, GO RUN ANOTHER MISSION TYPE. THEY ARE NO FORCEING YOU TO FARM ALL THE PARTS IN ONE DAY....YOU ARE AND THEN YOU COME ON HERE AND CRY ABOUT IT.

Haha, you made my day. Thanks :D

[(PSN)Pengu_Imperialus]

Haha, you made my day. Thanks :D

It's a curious strategy no one seems to try though lol

[(PSN)theelix]

As have been stated many times already, I just want to say something...

This grind wall is absolutely @(*()$ stupid. 

Why? Not because it makes things hard to get, no no... It's because it makes things IMPOSSIBLE to get. 

I just got a galatine. I know, pretty late now, huh? I know the stance mod for heavy axes (A.K.A A galatine), Cleaving Whirlwind, drops from Ancient Disruptors. 

I've been farming for this mod for four days straight with three others, two of which are nekros with natural talent and desecrating like their DJ'ing and a rhino. I farm from the hours of 3:00PM to 10:00PM... I have never received this mod. 

 

There is absolutely no reason at all in this world that something should take 28 hours, (24, being generous with breaks and intermission) or just about a day to get one thing. You shouldn't have to buy or trade for something that should drop from an enemy that's found commonly. It's quite ridiculous. 

 

For me, It's a game ruiner. I haven't gotten on warframe for more than 23 seconds a day since a week and a half ago, now. It's only to get the daily rewards and to make sure I gotten what was said to be received. If you're trying to make the game longer by making you strive for things for days (measured in active gameplay i.e. in a session of survival for an hour) there is honestly no point in doing it. Maybe instead of making it longer by making it impossible to get something, just add more junk. 

 

As stated before, yeah, some people have to go to college, we don't have the money to throw away nor the time. A.K.A Casual playing, which means for them, it's not even something they dream of. That's not cool. I mean, I'd be ok if I knew I had to grind for 10 hours in total to get this mod, I'd be ok with that. But there is literally no gaurantee nor any certainty that you'll ever get a mod that has less than a 5% chance of dropping, or at least that's how it's been for me. I'm saying that because of this and the fact that I hunted for Natural Talent for three weeks a few days after I started this game. I have never received it. I've spent quite a bit making those ODE keys and even got some rides from people and quite a bit more making all the dragon keys. It, to me, is unobtainable by normal means of obtaining it. I know trading is an option, (it shouldn't be mandatory) but It's not like there's much to do in order to get platinum, seeing as you either buy it, trade for it, or get it from a live stream which is a 1 to what? 5,000 chance? So, basically, there's two main ways to get platinum and taking the trading route, you only have so many trades a day. Unless you're selling some really rare mods which I've never obtained because they're unobtainable through regular means to me, you'll only average 70-150 plat a day. Assuming you're not MR 12+ and have more trades/day. 

 

Grinding is supposed to be fun in it's own way, yet challenging BUT ALSO aggravating. This is ONLY aggravating and not challenging or fun at all. You kill the same exact enemies, because you're looking for a specific one, on the same tiles, most likely(more so if you're a nekros) spamming the same ability, dying a lot, and not having fun. Me and my three friends ran out of things to talk about by the second day. So we sit there, bored out of our minds, quiet, doing our jobs and not enjoying it. 

 

As I've said before, The grind wall is absolutely @(*()$ stupid. They do have the saying there's a brick wall between you and what you're looking for, but no. For me, that wall is made of titanium and extends into space and as far as the eye can see on either side. And I'm not going to open that stupid freaking door that says "pay me {n} platinum to get this mod." 

[(PSN)theelix]

THEN STOP, GO RUN ANOTHER MISSION TYPE. THEY ARE NO FORCEING YOU TO FARM ALL THE PARTS IN ONE DAY....YOU ARE AND THEN YOU COME ON HERE AND CRY ABOUT IT.

Do you not realize that since he doesn't get it, he's going to have to come back and get it? Or do you think that he's going to go play another mission type and he's going to magically have the part that he needed to get before he played this other mission type? Or maybe this is the last part he needs to get. Or maybe he has OCD and wants to get this one part before he gets other parts... Or other reasons...

Edited June 13, 2014 by (PS4)theelix

[Fate_6]

Lets put it this way, even D3 on release with its terrible drop rates at least had INTERESTING grinds. Like, it was also long and somewhat soulcrushing, but at least I had to WORK HARD and USE MY BRAIN to get the drops

[Deidaku]

I had to WORK HARD 

There's the problem. It's making us enjoy the game so little it turns into tedious work

[ProfessorZero]

There's the problem. It's making us enjoy the game so little it turns into tedious work

When you have issues grinding particular pieces I always just go to trading, for example i traded a boar prime BP for a mod i was desperate for, so while individual grinds might be ever lasting, that's why you get a group and trade among it. people here are nice. Besides a little tediousness never killed anyone.

[MerelyARumor]

I personally believe grind walls are necessary no matter what anybody says. It's a grind game. Let it be.

grindgame+ weapon simulator

[(PSN)Pengu_Imperialus]

As have been stated many times already, I just want to say something...

This grind wall is absolutely @(*()$ stupid. 

Why? Not because it makes things hard to get, no no... It's because it makes things IMPOSSIBLE to get. 

I just got a galatine. I know, pretty late now, huh? I know the stance mod for heavy axes (A.K.A A galatine), Cleaving Whirlwind, drops from Ancient Disruptors. 

I've been farming for this mod for four days straight with three others, two of which are nekros with natural talent and desecrating like their DJ'ing and a rhino. I farm from the hours of 3:00PM to 10:00PM... I have never received this mod. 

 

There is absolutely no reason at all in this world that something should take 28 hours, (24, being generous with breaks and intermission) or just about a day to get one thing. You shouldn't have to buy or trade for something that should drop from an enemy that's found commonly. It's quite ridiculous. 

 

For me, It's a game ruiner. I haven't gotten on warframe for more than 23 seconds a day since a week and a half ago, now. It's only to get the daily rewards and to make sure I gotten what was said to be received. If you're trying to make the game longer by making you strive for things for days (measured in active gameplay i.e. in a session of survival for an hour) there is honestly no point in doing it. Maybe instead of making it longer by making it impossible to get something, just add more junk. 

 

As stated before, yeah, some people have to go to college, we don't have the money to throw away nor the time. A.K.A Casual playing, which means for them, it's not even something they dream of. That's not cool. I mean, I'd be ok if I knew I had to grind for 10 hours in total to get this mod, I'd be ok with that. But there is literally no gaurantee nor any certainty that you'll ever get a mod that has less than a 5% chance of dropping, or at least that's how it's been for me. I'm saying that because of this and the fact that I hunted for Natural Talent for three weeks a few days after I started this game. I have never received it. I've spent quite a bit making those ODE keys and even got some rides from people and quite a bit more making all the dragon keys. It, to me, is unobtainable by normal means of obtaining it. I know trading is an option, (it shouldn't be mandatory) but It's not like there's much to do in order to get platinum, seeing as you either buy it, trade for it, or get it from a live stream which is a 1 to what? 5,000 chance? So, basically, there's two main ways to get platinum and taking the trading route, you only have so many trades a day. Unless you're selling some really rare mods which I've never obtained because they're unobtainable through regular means to me, you'll only average 70-150 plat a day. Assuming you're not MR 12+ and have more trades/day. 

 

Grinding is supposed to be fun in it's own way, yet challenging BUT ALSO aggravating. This is ONLY aggravating and not challenging or fun at all. You kill the same exact enemies, because you're looking for a specific one, on the same tiles, most likely(more so if you're a nekros) spamming the same ability, dying a lot, and not having fun. Me and my three friends ran out of things to talk about by the second day. So we sit there, bored out of our minds, quiet, doing our jobs and not enjoying it. 

 

As I've said before, The grind wall is absolutely @(*()$ stupid. They do have the saying there's a brick wall between you and what you're looking for, but no. For me, that wall is made of titanium and extends into space and as far as the eye can see on either side. And I'm not going to open that stupid freaking door that says "pay me {n} platinum to get this mod."

Your definition of impossible needs work. Got almost everything so far, and yeah I put some time in but ya know I sorta enjoy the game so it's not tortuous. If you want it now that's what the cash options are for. If you want it now for free, trade or you can play till ya get it like every other game I have ever played.

[(PSN)theelix]

When you have issues grinding particular pieces I always just go to trading, for example i traded a boar prime BP for a mod i was desperate for, so while individual grinds might be ever lasting, that's why you get a group and trade among it. people here are nice. Besides a little tediousness never killed anyone.

But the problem is there are so few people who do have it. The people who do have it usually have one and if they want to use it, that just means there's less people to trade it from. 

 

I think of it this way: Why take it from someone else if I can get it myself and not have to worry about having taken it from someone who may need it later? 

 

Also, yeah, a little tediousness never killed anyone... Weeks worth of tediousness does. 

Edited June 13, 2014 by (PS4)theelix

[Deidaku]

 

Also, yeah, a little tediousness never killed anyone... weeks worth of tediousness does. 

Fixed it for you 

 

 

<snip>

If I give up , what's the point of playing this game.

 

we're beta testers. It's our job to call DE out on their shenanigans X) No matter how long it takes

I don't want future players to suffer like us the horrid dilution that is the void.

[SmokinDevil]

Well that's just like, your opinion bro.

[(PSN)theelix]

Your definition of impossible needs work. Got almost everything so far, and yeah I put some time in but ya know I sorta enjoy the game so it's not tortuous. If you want it now that's what the cash options are for. If you want it now for free, trade or you can play till ya get it like every other game I have ever played.

Then you, sir, must have sacrificed much more to the RNG gods than I. I've farmed and farmed and farmed for hours which turned into a full day's worth of active gameplay. I'm not farming anymore. It's too boring and it's not rewarding at all when I get it because that just means I'll have to go farm the @(*()&#036; cores or polar duplicates to rank it up. I farmed for Tranquil Cleave for 14 hours, two nekros, one rhino, me and it was suppposed to be so rewarding, yeah? Got this new mod, gives me extra damage, gives me a slightly higher DPS and it'll look so much cooler killing stuff, yeah? Yeah! ... No. You have three main combos and only two of them are worth anything. Melee 2.0 is nice, but when the attack that's supposed to slice through enemies like they're butter just stops on one person, without even damaging them because the attack is supposed to be on either side of you, not in front of you, you realize just how pointless that combo is. 

 

BecomeLikeWater, on 12 Jun 2014 - 6:09 PM, said:

I personally believe grind walls are necessary no matter what anybody says. It's a grind game. Let it be.

 

That's true and all but if grinds are taking days of active gameplay, it's excessive and kills the point. I'd only understand if it was something that was really rewarding. Like... Oh look, I just put in two days worth of gameplay for ONE MOD. VS. I just put in two days worth of gameplay for a full frame that's leveled up to 10. OR I just got a mod that's already ranked to (6/10) for staying on survival for two hours/ defense for 70 waves. 

[AlchemistMute]

If I remember correctly, it was something along the lines of this. I'll use the Void as an example.

 

With the Pure RNG we have right now, you get what you get. It is completely random.

 

With what I read (again, if I remember correctly), Void Drops will become more likely to drop the more you don't get it. So if you are looking for, say, a Braton Prime Receiver but all you ever get is a Burston Prime BP, the more you don't get what you are looking for the more likely you are to get it. Basically, the more unlucky you get, the higher your chances of eventually getting what you want. It increases the chance of finding what you are grinding for but also reducing the grind, but not enough to trivialize it.

So, in other words, it's a reverse Desire Sensor. If you get one item, the chance of getting that item is decreased, and the chance of getting other items is increased by an equal amount. It will be decreased only slightly each time so you still have to do a bit of grinding, but at least you will be likely to get an item after enough grinding.

[koolen]

I don't want future players to suffer like us the horrid dilution that is the void.

DE won't have future players if they continue like that

[Yezzik]

Grind is always superior to RNG, because with grind you're always making progress.

Back when I used to play WoW, I got myself the Insane title. Ravenholdt was the best part of that grind, as no matter if I did one lap of Searing Gorge or twenty each day, I could look at my growing collection of Junkboxes and know that I was always making progress toward my goal.

[Deidaku]

DE won't have future players if they continue like that

Exactly

[Fate_6]

There's the problem. It's making us enjoy the game so little it turns into tedious work

No you miss my point. In D3 it was a challenge to get through runs, like you had to use teamwork and kite enemies and communicate and every elite mob pack was harder than a boss fight. In Warframe it's just a ton of time spent killing trash mobs. I'd rather spend a little less time but actually have to try. My brain is off when I turn on Warframe right now.

[Fate_6]

And to all you who defend this with the usual "IT'S A BETA!", I'll tell you this. Do not be fooled, the only things being tested here are the playerbase's patience and naivety.

I agree with most of what you said unfortunately, but this part in particular.

 

Open Betas like this one do not lead to a different game on release. It will be the same game. Just look at MWO, you can see their playerbase burning from here. Devs slowly milked us for every dime we were willing to give until we finally just went yaaaaaa this game isn't actually going to improve they'd rather sell us trash before actually coding gameplay.

Now, DE is a good studio don't get me wrong. They communicate and they constantly improve. I just don't think they're headed in the right direction right now. We need some grind, not RNG layers upon RNG layers. Farming keys to farm the void is mindless. Give us some challenge, and not because the enemies gradually become bullet sponges. Sure, I don't want to oneshot enemies, but I'd rather face 10 equally challenging enemies than 20 trash mobs and 1 sponge.

[DoomFruit]

If I give up , what's the point of playing this game.

 

we're beta testers. It's our job to call DE out on their shenanigans X) No matter how long it takes

I don't want future players to suffer like us the horrid dilution that is the void.

We've been calling out shenanigans for a very long time. Quite some time ago, players found that the rate of Forma drops from the Void was unusually low. Asking on the forums got a response of "no, everything is fine". Someone extracted the drop chances directly from the data files and showed that it was actually a 0.25% drop chance. When presented to the Powers that Be, they quickly back-pedalled and mumbled something about "an intern did it". Then they encrypted the drop tables in the very next patch with some ridiculous flimsy excuse about "intellectual property".

 

So, the last time we called out shenanigans, we got lied to. When we exposed the lies with hard proof, they deliberately went to great pains to ensure that we couldn't get that proof again. And despite all the continual flow of threads coming up about the ever-increasing grind, dilution of the drop tables and potential solutions thereof, it keeps getting worse. This last patch being a brilliant example. There was a perfect opportunity to start afresh and remove all the duplicate items. Nope. We're now at 85 unique and 69 duplicate non-Forma items in the Void drop tables. T4 was not necessary if you take out all the crap like cores, resources and keys.

 

It's not worth attempting to improve things now. They don't listen. The only solution is to just leave before it gets too bad.

[(PSN)MoriartyHaaaiii]

Grindwalls are okay if implemented correctly. DE has started getting out of hand with these things though.

[Argenex]

If I remember correctly, it was something along the lines of this. I'll use the Void as an example.

 

With the Pure RNG we have right now, you get what you get. It is completely random.

 

With what I read (again, if I remember correctly), Void Drops will become more likely to drop the more you don't get it. So if you are looking for, say, a Braton Prime Receiver but all you ever get is a Burston Prime BP, the more you don't get what you are looking for the more likely you are to get it. Basically, the more unlucky you get, the higher your chances of eventually getting what you want. It increases the chance of finding what you are grinding for but also reducing the grind, but not enough to trivialize it.

 

This is actually similar to the "shufflebag" method of obtaining something that is dropped.

 

In the bag are A, B, & C.

If a player gets A, the next time they will not get A, either B or C.

If they next get B, their third attempt will absolutely be a C.

Then it resets.

 

The shufflebag programming concept was created because RNG is unreliable, it's not fun, and truly not random, (at least never perceived as random because, for example, Latron Prime Stock). Inevitably you get players experiencing more of not getting what they expected to get or want, the outliers if you will and you also have those that "always get what they want". This creates a lopsided scale; half of your players are happy and content while the other half are driven away by unreachable goals.

Alot of MMOs woke up to this several years ago and implemented similar systems.