A Conversation About Warframe Ability Cooldowns

[GSDAkatsuki]

Cooldowns are uneeded, it's power efficiency and corrupt mods in general that's breaking the game and making abilities spammable.

[Tarille]

Normally the value would be "you can use it more often". But considering spammability is a thing, what other value could it have? It can't be as powerful, can it? Bladestorm is an ult after all.

 

Why can't it be as powerful?

 

What makes an "Ult" have to be the strongest ability you have?

 

I don't understand this reference to ability #4 being the "Ultimate" - There's nothing indicating that it needs to be so much stronger than other abilities. There's no cooldown (Yet) that makes it seem ultimate, the cost is would be pretty much on par if ability #1 did similar damage because of the AoE effect of most #4's.

 

The only thing that I can think of that makes #4 an "Ultimate" is that other games like MOBA's have ultimate abilities on skill #4 - But these are locked so they can't be skilled until certain levels, have fewer upgrades (For example, Dota has 3 levels to an ultimate rather than the 4 of other skills), has a significantly higher mana cost (For some) and has a very long cooldown.

 

If Shuriken and Bladestorm did equivalent damage (Or even if Bladestorm did less) then instead of feeling like you NEED to spam Bladestorm to be effective, you'd end up with that choice - Throw Shurikens for single target damage or Bladestorm to take out multiples.

 

Sure, there would be times when Bladestorm spamming is the way to go, but it wouldn't mean that in every situation the best thing to do is just Bladestorm because it's superior to every other ability in terms of direct damage.

 

Now, if #4 was locked so you couldn't get it until your frame was level X (Outside it's higher mod point cost, which is rendered moot with innate ability polarities and a single Aura providing more than enough mod points for it on an unranked frame), and it's power level was really far above anything else (Not every frame's #4's are their strongest ability - For example Ember's Fireball does better than WoF) then I could understand the label "Ultimate" and it's arbitrary power level advantage over other abilities - But until then, I don't understand why all 4 powers couldn't be at relatively equal power to energy requirement ratios

[LukeAura]

Why did you just focus on the example I gave. That was just supposed to show you how cooldowns could both limit spamming and make other abilities more valuable.  There's more that could come out of that idea.

 

 

Normally the value would be "you can use it more often". But considering spammability is a thing, what other value could it have? It can't be as powerful, can it? Bladestorm is an ult after all.

 

How about using my other abilities? Like the one that makes me invisible.

Oh, and that works too.

Ults shouldn't be spammable, but should be strong enough that you don't have to use it twice in a row if you used it correctly.

It's easiest to focus on tangible evidence. And no, limiting spam does not make other abilities better. Using what's left does not make it right. 

Also, if we're talking pure cooldown, that's already failed an ingame test. Half the game modes allow you to wait room to room drop ults, pick out stragglers, wait out the cooldown, and then proceed. 

'you can use it more often' does not necessarily mean using it is going to solve your problem. A dynamic energy system will encourage the right choice, even if that choice is the ultimate. If that ultimate needs to be toned down or the other skills buffed up then that is necessary. A gun will still outperform shuriken if bladestorm is unavailable. Bladestorm does things a gun can't, a gun does things bladestorm can't. Shuriken, even though it costs less should do things that bladestorm can't do, or things that bladestorm's effects can't cover. It doesn't have to be more powerful, only different.

Ultimates shouldn't even really be considered 'ultimates'. Yes, they can be high cost powerful skills. But that doesn't mean they need to be the be all, end all of abilities. 

 

[VentiGlondi]

And no, limiting spam does not make other abilities better.

I never said it did. We were talking about reducing spammability, right?

In my opinion it's the spammability (of ults) that should be nerfed instead of ults.

 

Also, if we're talking pure cooldown, that's already failed an ingame test.

I already expressed my opinion on that.

 

I don't understand this reference to ability #4 being the "Ultimate"

People agreed they're ultimates because they cost the most energy and because of how friggin powerful some of them are.

 

Ultimates shouldn't even really be considered 'ultimates'. Yes, they can be high cost powerful skills. But that doesn't mean they need to be the be all, end all of abilities.

Well, that's a good point, but look how many people want them to be "ultimates" while keeping them spammable.

It should be one way or the other. Otherwise, no amount of better AI or buffs will help the enemy. Only Stalker will survive.

 

 

... Which reminds me - wasn't Stalker affected by abilities once? Didn't DE make him immune to abilities because it was too easy to just cheese him?

Edited June 15, 2014 by VentiGlondi

[LukeAura]

I never said it did. We were talking about reducing spammability, right?

In my opinion it's the spammability (of ults) that should be nerfed instead of ults.

You said limiting spam makes other abilities more valuable. It doesn't is my response.  Because you can consider every ability is a set of effects that cover a set of scenarios. When you limit the spammability of an ability you don't increase the others abilities to cover more scenarios or cover their scenarios better. If you face repeated scenarios where the ult is the only ability that covers the scenario then the logical situation is that you need to use your ult. 

 

 

Well, that's a good point, but look how many people want them to be "ultimates" while keeping them spammable.

It should be one way or the other. Otherwise, no amount of better AI or buffs will help the enemy. Only Stalker will survive.

They'd be the most powerful skill in the box, but they'd only cover a few specific and highly dangerous scenarios. They are spammable, but spamming them won't return as good results as using the right skill. 

Well, how about a buff that allows enemies to block pure/radial AoEs but not single targets or pseudo AoEs(ex. charge and dash. which hit multiple targets along the path but aren't technically AoE.) give it to enemy snowglobes. Now you've just limited most Ultimates from taking out that threatening eximus and his buddies but single target weaker or linear skills now sail on through.

[__Kanade__]

Then my 20 energy radial disarm spam build wont work then whats point of loki? NOTHING! Plus it would have wasted hundred of rare 5 cores i have used and hours and days to make that build.

^ Proves why there needs to be a balance for something like this, whether it's bringing back CDs or not.

 

It's all high reward with no risk.

[VentiGlondi]

You said limiting spam makes other abilities more valuable. It doesn't is my response.

It kind of does. With and emphasis on kind of.

Though, I'd agree that with my cooldown ideas a lot of abilities would need buffs, if not all of them.

 

At least we agree that currently things are not okay.

[Azawarau]

You are suggesting 3-4 minute long cool downs in a shooter....?

 

 

This isn't a @(*()$ MMORPG

Even if it were that long a CD would be ridiculous for many games...

 

i know the feeling

 

Ever try mabinogi?

 

Drop a meteor for some seriously ridiculous damage

 

CD 30 real minutes

 

Or use a skill that takes a bit more placement and does just as much dmg with a CD of 3 seconds most of which is taken by the animation that comes jam packed with an invincibility frame

 

Yeah

 

CD arent always a good idea in games...

[LukeAura]

At least we agree that currently things are not okay.

That's true.

Personally I would like to see ults become more like absorb. Situationally, incredibly, powerful. 

it doesn't always work because it requires heavy enemy fire to charge, and it is relatively close range compared to the distances coverable by Mind Control and Chaos. 

In fact, Chaos is pretty good balance to Absorb. Absorb has huge power when tightly surrounded by enemies. Chaos is better when enemies aren't clustered so tightly that they don't accidentally kill you in the, well, chaos. 

If anything I would say Chaos works too well at close range, and enemies should be more likely to continue to target you the closer they are to you.

Edit: And new blessing as well, although I haven't tested it yet it should probably have a much quicker cast time to make up for now being a snap skill it needs the speed of a snap skill. And I think is probably the best skill to illustrate the idea. It is still 100% spammable, but is reliant upon scenario to actually be an effective skill. You can't just hit 4 for invulnerability any more, but if used correctly it is still incredibly powerful. Now Well of Life can take over as general survivability buff. Each one covers a different scenario. Well of Life is preemptive healing. You tag one enemy, and then whenever someone is worried about their life they can top up on him. And then Blessing is emergency/reactive healing, but only works when it's an actual emergency.

 

 

Edited June 15, 2014 by LukeAura

[Azawarau]

That's true.

Personally I would like to see ults become more like absorb. Situationally, incredibly, powerful. 

it doesn't always work because it requires heavy enemy fire to charge, and it is relatively close range compared to the distances coverable by Mind Control and Chaos. 

In fact, Chaos is pretty good balance to Absorb. Absorb has huge power when tightly surrounded by enemies. Chaos is better when enemies aren't clustered so tightly that they don't accidentally kill you in the, well, chaos. 

If anything I would say Chaos works too well at close range, and enemies should be more likely to continue to target you the closer they are to you.

Edit: And new blessing as well, although I haven't tested it yet it should probably have a much quicker cast time to make up for now being a snap skill it needs the speed of a snap skill. And I think is probably the best skill to illustrate the idea. It is still 100% spammable, but is reliant upon scenario to actually be an effective skill. You can't just hit 4 for invulnerability any more, but if used correctly it is still incredibly powerful. Now Well of Life can take over as general survivability buff. Each one covers a different scenario. Well of Life is preemptive healing. You tag one enemy, and then whenever someone is worried about their life they can top up on him. And then Blessing is emergency/reactive healing, but only works when it's an actual emergency.

 

 

But absorb can be used in any situation effectively against near any enemy and gain ridiculous wipeout potential on an extreme range...

 

It used to be situational but now its a spam ability

 

EDIT

 

Blessing is much faster

 

You must see for yourself

Edited June 16, 2014 by Azawarau

[LukeAura]

EDIT

 

Blessing is much faster

 

You must see for yourself

Oh thank the heavens. 

 

[IfritKajiTora]

Cooldowns is needed. But first skill should not: Attacking enemeis will load a new bar that is first skill power, maxing this bar will give us enough to use first skill 4 times.
Other skills just cooldowns
2nd skill 15 seconds
3rd skill 25 seconds
4th skill 45 seconds
 

Efficiency mods as cooldown reduction but 30% mod to max 15% and fleeting expertise from 60% to 30%. so max it will give 45% cooldown reduction.

So the 4th skill will have colldown 25 seconds.

[VentiGlondi]

Cooldowns is needed. But first skill should not: Attacking enemeis will load a new bar that is first skill power, maxing this bar will give us enough to use first skill 4 times.

Other skills just cooldowns

2nd skill 15 seconds

3rd skill 25 seconds

4th skill 45 seconds

 

Efficiency mods as cooldown reduction but 30% mod to max 15% and fleeting expertise from 60% to 30%. so max it will give 45% cooldown reduction.

So the 4th skill will have colldown 25 seconds.

Each warframe has different abilities with different purposes.

If cooldowns were a thing, each warframe should have its own cooldowns.

[IfritKajiTora]

Each warframe has different abilities with different purposes.

If cooldowns were a thing, each warframe should have its own cooldowns.

Yep but devs dont know how to balance, so they will give nova molecular prime cooldown 10 seconds -_- so spam again.

If Warframe will have cooldowns then no more, this skill is the best so only I will use this for example NOVA molecular prime. If cooldown were on then all players will use all skills.

[Tsukinoki]

@IfritKajiTora
The statement:

If cooldown were on then all players will use all skills.

Is completely FALSE.

Take my Nova.
I dont equip Null star.
Its a useless ability and I dont even slot it into my frame.  i polorized its ability slot and use it for far more useful mods.
Even with a CD system I would never use it slot it in.
Or take Frosts Freeze.
Even if it had a .5 second CD I wouldn't ever slot it in or use it because its still a horribly bad skill.
Or Ashes teleport.
Even if it had no CD and cost zero energy I wouldn't use it or slot it in because its a waste of mod points.

Or Nyx's Psychic Bolts.
Or Excal's Super Jump.

And there are a lot more but I think you get the point.

Just slapping a CD on abilities doesn't make them useful or wanted or good by any stretch.  It would just slow down people using the useful skill that a warframe has.

Why waste mod points and a slot on a bad ability?
And no matter how low the CD is, bad abilities are still bad and will not be used.

@OP
We had a CD before.  It slowed the game to a crawl of "Run into the room, pop all abilities, wait at door till your abilities are ready and then repeat" because otherwise you were actively hurting your survivability.
Further, 3 to 5 minutes is about 1 to 2 minutes longer than it takes me to finish a mission with a Thrak Rhino.  Its FAR too long a CD for a game like this.

A CD system doesn't do anything but frustrate the player and slow down gameplay with absolutely no positives.

Especially when you consider that some abilities (Such as vaubans Tesla) are built for and require spamming them in order to have any use what-so-ever.

Edited June 16, 2014 by Tsukinoki

[Otaiken]

The advantage of CDs is that you are encouraged to use the ability every time it's available as you are not getting much out not doing so. This makes for more active playstyle. I find that I tend to "hoard" the energy.. forgoing my abilities in favor of weapons. Unless I'my trying to get out of trouble.

 

So advantages of energy: Makes abilities into Joker cards, to be used tactically or when in trouble. Players might tend to use them less though and forgo the more spammy ones completely. This can be bypassed by specing for efficiency though. Everything that is subpar in efficiency is not gonna be used though... many 1s fall into this category.

 

Advantages of CDs: More encouraging to spam and use abilities often.. you can't "hoard" CDs so you might as well use it. Or keep it in case you need it.. especially when it comes to survivability powers (so there's still some tactical element). You also have to commit to your decisions. 

 

Energy + CD: Bad idea imho, weaknesses of both systems advantages of none. Maybe at most some CDs at hard hitting 4s could be introduced to reduce the spam. You should essentially be encouraged to spam the weaker abilities while making the stronger ones tactical choices.

 

 

My oppinion: I like CDs better. I don't like having to worry about energy while I fly around with Zephyr.. I don't like to make a choice between fun and mobility and keeping that energy up in case I need it for Turbulence. It would be better to free those spammy weak damage and utility from energy.. maybe give them low (or no) CD and put CD on the hard hitters so they are more of a tactical choice.

 

Anyway it comes down to preference, both system can be exploited though.. the energy one is a little bit easier to exploit for maximum spam though. CDs in a nutshell: Spam the weaker "fun" abilities (you might as well, they don't cost you).. it wouldn't be OP and it make the game more fun and dynamic, while reducing spam on the hard hitting and important abilities (more thinking in using them, aka burning your CDs).

Again, max efficiency trivializes this completely as you can spam everything... that is one major flaw of the energy system. You either don't have efficiency.. so you don't use the lesser abilities at all.. to conserve... or you build efficiency and spam all day.. even the most powerful stuff. CDs would create some kind of middle ground.

 

Or you know... change how energy efficiency works. Actually.. I would like CDs, would make things simpler.

 

I kinda like the Mass Effect 3 system to be honest. You can either be a powerhouse with serious gunpower.. but have terrible CDs or you can go in light but get to spam your abilities. Maybe now that we can unequip our weapons? You can spam with Nova.. as long as you're fine with using just Lato though :D

Edited June 16, 2014 by LocoWithGun

[VentiGlondi]

@OP

We had a CD before.  It slowed the game to a crawl of "Run into the room, pop all abilities, wait at door till your abilities are ready and then repeat" because otherwise you were actively hurting your survivability.

Further, 3 to 5 minutes is about 1 to 2 minutes longer than it takes me to finish a mission with a Thrak Rhino.  Its FAR too long a CD for a game like this.

A CD system doesn't do anything but frustrate the player and slow down gameplay with absolutely no positives.

Especially when you consider that some abilities (Such as vaubans Tesla) are built for and require spamming them in order to have any use what-so-ever.

That's because a game like this needs to encourage player to do something while the abilities are cooling off.

Take Borderlands for example. Those games even give you bonus stats while your ability is on cooldown.

 

It's not that CD system is bad, it's that DE implemented it in the laziest way possible.

Edited June 16, 2014 by VentiGlondi

[TheGuy08]

Some times I wonder what game some of you are playing? This game simply is not designed for long CDs. You are basically promoting weapon based play which is already the standard for higher level play. I understand some players hate the spam but after a certain point abilities fall off and you are forced to rely on strong weapons as it is.

 

Given the current density in the void, investment in frames, and the quick combat a move like this could kill the game on resentment alone. 

Edited June 16, 2014 by TheGuy08

[IfritKajiTora]

Some times I wonder what game some of you are playing? This game simply is not designed for long CDs. You are basically promoting weapon based play which is already the standard for higher level play. I understand some players hate the spam but after a certain point abilities fall off and you are forced to rely on strong weapons as it is.

 

Given the current density in the void, investment in frames, and the quick combat a move like this could kill the game on resentment alone. 

Da, Loki said it -_- when all his skills are usefull at all levels.

Skills that make only DMG are useless on higher levels. Example Frost have only Ice wave that slow down enemies others are useless Snow Globe will take fire to 5 seconds a lot :/.

If Lokis skills will stop work at level 40+ he will be weak like some other warframes and talk in different way.

[Irreverent]

@IfritKajiTora

The statement:

Is completely FALSE.

Take my Nova.

I dont equip Null star.

Its a useless ability and I dont even slot it into my frame.  i polorized its ability slot and use it for far more useful mods.

Even with a CD system I would never use it slot it in.

Or take Frosts Freeze.

Even if it had a .5 second CD I wouldn't ever slot it in or use it because its still a horribly bad skill.

Or Ashes teleport.

Even if it had no CD and cost zero energy I wouldn't use it or slot it in because its a waste of mod points.

Or Nyx's Psychic Bolts.

Or Excal's Super Jump.

And there are a lot more but I think you get the point.

 

Same here. Threw out Nova's Nullstar, Nyx Psychic Bolts, Mag's Pull etc

Yay for slots freed for something actually useful.

[SableSonata]

Yes to cooldowns, remove energy altogether. 

Power efficiency mods now adjust cooldowns. (probably including slight nerfs to Fleeting Expertise and/or Streamline, or capping the reduction at 60% or so instead of 75%)

Cooldowns between 1s and 30s (base) depending on the skill.

Remove ability mod cards. Abilities scale with warframe level and all four are always available.

Cooldowns begin when the skill's effects end, in most cases.

 

Can't just spam ults constantly anymore, but you can still use them regularly, and it's now worth it to use things other than ults because now using other skills doesn't restrict you from using your ult. 

 

Now you need to know when is the best time to use each of your four powers, and how to mix them into melee and gunfighting, rather than just run into a room, press 4, repeat. 

 

So take Loki's invisibility build. Effectively, it would be exactly the same, except that when you de-cloak, you can't just immediately re-cloack, and have to survive for 7-10 seconds. Or you can throw Fleeting in and only be exposed for only a couple seconds, but you will be exposed more often.

 

The keys to cooldowns being viable are: 

1. No energy cost ('Efficiency' would adjust the cooldown times).

2. Reasonable cooldowns (30-40s at most, and all tied to the specific skill).

3. All powers tied to the frame and not to mods.

4. Cooldowns are tied to each individual skill, and are not global.

 

If these are done, cooldowns would be far superior to the current system. Players would still be able to spam powers, but they would be spamming four different powers instead of one, and they would be mixed naturally into their combat, rather than being almost exclusively used as an opener.

Edited June 17, 2014 by SableSonata

[Azawarau]

Yes to cooldowns, remove energy altogether. 

Power efficiency mods now adjust cooldowns. (probably including slight nerfs to Fleeting Expertise and/or Streamline, or capping the reduction at 60% or so instead of 75%)

Cooldowns between 1s and 30s (base) depending on the skill.

Remove ability mod cards. Abilities scale with warframe level and all four are always available.

Cooldowns begin when the skill's effects end, in most cases.

 

Can't just spam ults constantly anymore, but you can still use them regularly, and it's now worth it to use things other than ults because now using other skills doesn't restrict you from using your ult. 

 

Now you need to know when is the best time to use each of your four powers, and how to mix them into melee and gunfighting, rather than just run into a room, press 4, repeat. 

 

So take Loki's invisibility build. Effectively, it would be exactly the same, except that when you de-cloak, you can't just immediately re-cloack, and have to survive for 7-10 seconds. Or you can throw Fleeting in and only be exposed for only a couple seconds, but you will be exposed more often.

 

The keys to cooldowns being viable are: 

1. No energy cost ('Efficiency' would adjust the cooldown times).

2. Reasonable cooldowns (30-40s at most, and all tied to the specific skill).

3. All powers tied to the frame and not to mods.

4. Cooldowns are tied to each individual skill, and are not global.

 

If these are done, cooldowns would be far superior to the current system. Players would still be able to spam powers, but they would be spamming four different powers instead of one, and they would be mixed naturally into their combat, rather than being almost exclusively used as an opener.

The only thing adding CD will do is change warframe powers from being a feature to being a gimmick

[Tsukinoki]

So take Loki's invisibility build. Effectively, it would be exactly the same, except that when you de-cloak, you can't just immediately re-cloack, and have to survive for 7-10 seconds. Or you can throw Fleeting in and only be exposed for only a couple seconds, but you will be exposed more often.

So you want to make Loki's have to cast invis, do what they can, and then hide in a corner for 7 to 10 seconds until their invis is off CD so that they can continue and survive the enemies looking in their direction with how squishy he is?

How would that not ruin the flow of gameplay?

How would that be fun?  Having to duck behind a crate or a wall constantly and sit their until your CD was done would turn Loki into a boring slog.

Especially at levels where Loki *needs* to be invisible to be able to survive and revive players.

Further, removing the abilities as mods would just grant players 4 extra mod slots + 18 mod points.  That would be a horrible idea.  We dont need even more mod slots and points to get even more OP.  Yet if you get rid of those 4 mod slots you are now ruining quite a few builds where people have formaed away a power slot or two.

And again, we had those "reasonable" CDs early on in CBT.  It didnt work because it led to playing like the Loki example above.  And people still only used one or two abilities because again:

Why would I ever bother to hit 1 as a frost to use freeze?  Its just a *horrible* ability that is basically worthless and would just interupt my shooting.  Why would I ever want to use it?

People would still only use the good abilities and never touch the bad ones, even if they are free.  Just slapping a CD on the abilities does NOT make the useful, good, or worth the interruption to your firing that they would cause.

[CY13ERPUNK]

Then my 20 energy radial disarm spam build wont work then whats point of loki? NOTHING! Plus it would have wasted hundred of rare 5 cores i have used and hours and days to make that build.

 

different ults would have different CD's, obviously spamming an AOE dmg nuke ult is different than something like radial disarm

 

but having CD's on ability powers (most specifically the #4's/ULTS) could open up another set of mods that affected the cooldown timers, giving DE one more aspect to tweak (yes this would make builds even more of a squeeze, but we're already going to be getting a frame mod slot revamp to deal with the underused utility mods at some point, so this could just work into that revamp somewhere, and more choices with less room makes builds more diverse, and that is a good thing)

[Joyfulmama]

Hell no! 

 

 

Hell yes.

 

Did you two ninja-planned your replies to make an effective poll.