June 13Th: Community Hot Topics!

[OniDax]

When you "get back to more big issues at the end of this week", be sure to address the numerous requests for Excalibur Prime and Frost Prime to get some rework (some asking for more gold, some for more pattern details, others like me for simply some body attachments/add-ons like the other primes).

[[DE]Drew]

After the recent update, the call for a token system alongside the RNG we have now has been getting louder and stronger.  Multiple threads have cropped up in General Feedback with well thought out suggestions.

 

The token system has been mentioned many times before. It just adds a new form of currency, but there has been a lot of demand for it. We had some info on it before. I'll try to dig it up. 

 

...enemy scaling into bullet sponges that only do slightly more damage (up from the next-to-zero damage that they do at level 15), ways to make the enemies better...

 

 

Did you watch Devstream 30?

 

 

Just to name a few "still smoldering" concerns:

1 - Veteran's concerns over the state of the game and its future. 

2 - Void dillution

3 - Balance issues

4 - Artificial difficulty vs. engaging enemies. 

5 - Strict NAT/networking issues

 

1. Could you narrow that down into more specific concerns? That's pretty broad. 

2. Changes were recently made based on feedback (look at the drop table rotations) and changes continue to be made, as I noted in my original post. 

3. Some significant balance changes have been made in the past few updates (those were covered in previous hot topics). Check them out and post feedback on what else needs to be changed/looked at (Nekros is a common balance topic still). 

4. Do you have thoughts on what was said in Devstream 30?

5. Can you link specific threads? 

 

 Its not the void dilution that people have a problem with its the overall system of obtaining loot and items. Its boring repetitive and grindy. Its not strictly limited to the void. The problem extends outside the void into the starchart with things like basic mods.

 

 

I know that many people have requested easier ways to acquire specific stance mods. Is that what you are referring to? 

 

DE, token system

 

I can't imagine when all the prime warframes are relased along with all the new prime weapons and sentinels;.....the drop table is gonna be hoorendous.

 

Request noted. As I said before, this is a common suggestion. 

 

I think this AI topic is hot enough :)

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/238581-forget-better-ai-we-need-better-dumb-enemies

We covered this a bit in Devstream 30, but I know notionphil would like some more discussion about it. 

 

A pity this wasn't up earlier. There was something of an outbreak of Nekros feedback threads last week - all essentially discussing where we stand on Desecrate - all of which have since died off.

Desecrate has been a common topic for awhile. I need to find out what's next on the agenda for Warframe balancing. 

 

Total avoidance of mentioning U14....haven't heard any news for 1 month now...and if this week is not U14 then you guys will actually be "behind" your usual release schedule.

We've still got a fair amount of ground to cover before Update 14, but I'm sure you'll hear more about U14 this week.

 

- solo players balance & beginners experience.

 

Have you been following the changes that are coming for the new player experience? 

[notionphil]

How about https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/242366-devstream-30-an-unexpectedly-large-blow-to-my-hopes-for-the-game/?

 

Yep I'm pretty sure the hottest topic in the community is currently:

 

"Does Warframe have a direction? What's up with balance, challenge/mechanics, progression, RNG reliance? We're frustrated with not knowing where this is heading.

 

Can you hear us and let us know?"

 

Yep, I think that's it.

[notionphil]

[RE: enemy AI/mechanics as hottopic?]

 

We covered this a bit in Devstream 30, but I know notionphil would like some more discussion about it. 

 

I had a small convo with [developer working on enemies] and I feel more optimistic than I did after watching Devstream 30.

 

I have no idea if T4 Vor had anything to do with that convo (prob not) but those were the sorts of mechanics in general that were discussed. I know Vor's power is a bit much for some ppl, but the overall concept of his mechanics are pretty solid IMO. Lots of telegraphs, announces his presence, weakspot. I'm a fan.

 

So, lets see what's next. I think the biggest issue right now is lack of 2 way communication with Devs and Players. Hard questions. Outlines. Plans. Drew is doing an awesome job with the back and forth, and even replying to the rough ones. Thank you for that. However, sometimes the answer is "noted" or "I passed it along" which is probably 100% honest, but doesn't let us know whether [issue] is intentional, mistaken, being worked on, being phased out, etc.

[Xylia]

Have you been following the changes that are coming for the new player experience?

 

What changes, exactly, other than the Player Ship?

 

Player Ship won't suddenly turn MK1-Braton into Boltor Prime, you know. Player Ship won't suddenly let Newbies do more than 5% of the total damage in an online game when put into a group with veterans (and no, blocking veterans from joining their matches is NOT the answer; that only roadblocks them like Eurasia Interception earlier this year).

 

The biggest challenges Newbies Face (that Devs have been absolutely silent about):

 

1). You CANNOT make anything other than a Cronus, or Orthos until you clear Earth. It is 100% literally impossible unless you get carried (which breaks the progression of the game through the star chart).

 

2). Grineer are too stinking powerful for newbies, especially on Earth. Come on, Hellions? Karak-wielding Lancers? How are Excaliburs supposed to fight THOSE with their almost modless Bratons and heavily nerfed Latos? Oh, and the Kubrows too. lol. I bet that's fun for a newbie who's only got Ammo Drum on their Braton...

 

3). Captain Vor is a pain in the butt with no damage mods. I managed to do it in my newbie account test, but I'm a veteran with veteran skills and knowledge of the game. I've heard of multiple newbies quitting when they couldn't get him down, even with 2-3 people.

 

Player Ships are NOT going to solve any of the above unless it allows you to go where you want on the star chart (which will only lead the newbies getting creamed on Saturn, Mars or Jupiter rather than Earth) or they can push a button and get Hornet Strikes and Serrations... oh wait, they won't have enough money to rank them up, since getting Rank5 takes at least 50k credits.

 

EDIT: My Captain Vor Fight was Pre-Lato Nerf. And it took ALL of my Braton (not MK1) ammo and half of my Lato ammo.

Edited June 16, 2014 by Xylia

[Metalarcher]

Did you watch Devstream 30?

Yeah but...at what time did they talk about enemy scaling?  Does anyone know?  I suppose it's possible I missed something...

[Xylia]

Yeah but...at what time did they talk about enemy scaling?  Does anyone know?  I suppose it's possible I missed something...

 

IIRC, they ONLY talked about New Enemies and "synergy" between some new enemy units.

 

The only thing about enemy scaling was DE_Glen talking about how he'd rather see Horizontal Expansion (adding more T3) rather than Vertical Expansion (T4) because Tower 3 Defense starts getting ridiculous near the end.

 

.......and what did DE do? They added T4.

 

You know? I want someone from DE.... to tell us..... WHY.......WHY........did they add T4 when they sat on that couch and told us DURING A LIVESTREAM that they were hesitant about adding T4 and one of them (Glen) flat out said he was against it.

 

I wanna hear just how that happens, where we're told one thing, and the complete opposite happens a week later, and why his idea was dismissed in favor of adding this T4 mess. And I'd love to know..........why Interception? Because people didn't play it enough?

 

Protip, DE: If not enough people are playing content, maybe you should look at why people aren't doing it enough, rather than trying to force people to play it.

 

We need MORE OPTIONS to get our rewards. We need more ways to get keys than Survival, Defense, or Interception. We're tired of a lot of Prime Weapons/Warframes/etc almost always having a part in Defense or Survival.

[TheThreadWeaver]

I don't know if this is presumptuous of me, but I'd really like some idea of when the game will be out of its current "beta" state.

 

I don't mean "finished", per se. What I basically want to know is at what point feature- and update-wise would you all at DE term the game a "Full Release"? Introduction of the Focus system? Final inclusion of end-bosses? Whatever the feature is, I feel that some kind of concise parameter would really do a lot to help give the community an idea of where the game's going. an overall sense of focus to the whole continued updates, and something to point to when people say that the game is just "hiding behind the beta tag".

[CarrotSalad]

I know that many people have requested easier ways to acquire specific stance mods. Is that what you are referring to?

Re-hi drew,

The threads are about RNG / resources / Vay Hek / all mods not just stance Mods. Vay Hek, Argon resources is the main focus of these threads but Orokin Cells, Neurodes, Oxium also make appearances in thier own threads aswell as in the big RNG ones. Many players are having terrible experiences with the RNG and view its current operation as failing and unsatisfactory.

 

I wish i could go into more detail for you as im leaving things out like the brakk, detron,stalker, serration, redirection, toxic status mods for weapons etc. I havent even touched on the primes, void and derelict in this post.

 

There are other posters who are much more knowledgeable and can expand in detail on the problem than me. The RNG's problems blew up last week with the t4 void and Loki Prime. Whats sad is the wider issue is seemed to be being ignored and its being treated like its a problem only with Loki and not with allot of the other things the threads bring up.

Appreciate your reply thankyou

Edited June 17, 2014 by CarrotSalad

[Nightange1]

The token system has been mentioned many times before. It just adds a new form of currency, but there has been a lot of demand for it. We had some info on it before. I'll try to dig it up. 

 

 

Did you watch Devstream 30?

 

1. Could you narrow that down into more specific concerns? That's pretty broad. 

2. Changes were recently made based on feedback (look at the drop table rotations) and changes continue to be made, as I noted in my original post. 

3. Some significant balance changes have been made in the past few updates (those were covered in previous hot topics). Check them out and post feedback on what else needs to be changed/looked at (Nekros is a common balance topic still). 

4. Do you have thoughts on what was said in Devstream 30?

5. Can you link specific threads? 

 

 

I know that many people have requested easier ways to acquire specific stance mods. Is that what you are referring to? 

 

 

Request noted. As I said before, this is a common suggestion. 

 

We covered this a bit in Devstream 30, but I know notionphil would like some more discussion about it. 

 

Desecrate has been a common topic for awhile. I need to find out what's next on the agenda for Warframe balancing. 

 

We've still got a fair amount of ground to cover before Update 14, but I'm sure you'll hear more about U14 this week.

 

I'm sorry it bothers you, but I'm going to continue to respond to PS4 players as best I can.

 

Have you been following the changes that are coming for the new player experience? 

 

 

Regarding Strict Nat I can say for certain algonquin college is locked behind strict nat and I can't find a work around at all. It is a tad odd that several of DE's employees went there and if they were to go they wouldn't be able to enjoy their own game.

[Magnagar]

What changes, exactly, other than the Player Ship?

 

Player Ship won't suddenly turn MK1-Braton into Boltor Prime, you know. Player Ship won't suddenly let Newbies do more than 5% of the total damage in an online game when put into a group with veterans (and no, blocking veterans from joining their matches is NOT the answer; that only roadblocks them like Eurasia Interception earlier this year).

 

The biggest challenges Newbies Face (that Devs have been absolutely silent about):

 

1). You CANNOT make anything other than a Cronus, or Orthos until you clear Earth. It is 100% literally impossible unless you get carried (which breaks the progression of the game through the star chart).

 

2). Grineer are too stinking powerful for newbies, especially on Earth. Come on, Hellions? Karak-wielding Lancers? How are Excaliburs supposed to fight THOSE with their almost modless Bratons and heavily nerfed Latos? Oh, and the Kubrows too. lol. I bet that's fun for a newbie who's only got Ammo Drum on their Braton...

 

3). Captain Vor is a pain in the butt with no damage mods. I managed to do it in my newbie account test, but I'm a veteran with veteran skills and knowledge of the game. I've heard of multiple newbies quitting when they couldn't get him down, even with 2-3 people.

 

Player Ships are NOT going to solve any of the above unless it allows you to go where you want on the star chart (which will only lead the newbies getting creamed on Saturn, Mars or Jupiter rather than Earth) or they can push a button and get Hornet Strikes and Serrations... oh wait, they won't have enough money to rank them up, since getting Rank5 takes at least 50k credits.

 

EDIT: My Captain Vor Fight was Pre-Lato Nerf. And it took ALL of my Braton (not MK1) ammo and half of my Lato ammo.

Well said

[OniDax]

What changes, exactly, other than the Player Ship?

 

Player Ship won't suddenly turn MK1-Braton into Boltor Prime, you know. Player Ship won't suddenly let Newbies do more than 5% of the total damage in an online game when put into a group with veterans (and no, blocking veterans from joining their matches is NOT the answer; that only roadblocks them like Eurasia Interception earlier this year).

 

The biggest challenges Newbies Face (that Devs have been absolutely silent about):

 

1). You CANNOT make anything other than a Cronus, or Orthos until you clear Earth. It is 100% literally impossible unless you get carried (which breaks the progression of the game through the star chart).

 

2). Grineer are too stinking powerful for newbies, especially on Earth. Come on, Hellions? Karak-wielding Lancers? How are Excaliburs supposed to fight THOSE with their almost modless Bratons and heavily nerfed Latos? Oh, and the Kubrows too. lol. I bet that's fun for a newbie who's only got Ammo Drum on their Braton...

 

3). Captain Vor is a pain in the butt with no damage mods. I managed to do it in my newbie account test, but I'm a veteran with veteran skills and knowledge of the game. I've heard of multiple newbies quitting when they couldn't get him down, even with 2-3 people.

 

Player Ships are NOT going to solve any of the above unless it allows you to go where you want on the star chart (which will only lead the newbies getting creamed on Saturn, Mars or Jupiter rather than Earth) or they can push a button and get Hornet Strikes and Serrations... oh wait, they won't have enough money to rank them up, since getting Rank5 takes at least 50k credits.

 

EDIT: My Captain Vor Fight was Pre-Lato Nerf. And it took ALL of my Braton (not MK1) ammo and half of my Lato ammo.

 

Waste of breath. Earth's difficulty has been mentioned ever since Tethra's Doom was released and Earth Interception insanely buffed. But DE never did anything about it then, and it's still rather difficult for newbies now. Don't expect them to even address it. DE adds great content to the game, but when it comes to actually fixing the things that need fixing, they don't deliver.

Edited June 17, 2014 by AntoineFlemming

[Xylia]

Waste of breath. Earth's difficulty has been mentioned ever since Tethra's Doom was released and Earth Interception insanely buffed. But DE never did anything about it then, and it's still rather difficult for newbies now. Don't expect them to even address it.

 

With that mentality (that too many people seem to have), it is no wonder we can't raise enough Hell to get them to respond...

 

Most people forget about the newbies except the newbies themselves. Someone has to speak up for them; they don't have (Grand)Master badges (nor will they ever), so they're not likely to be heard.

 

"Waste of Breath"? I dunno. They swear up and down that they read what we say. So surely, one of these days, they have to sit down with us and actually explain their thoughts and feelings and some of their philosophy.

 

I'd LOVE to know how they justify making Earth _harder_ when it was already too hard for newbies before the Kubrows. Now they add Kubrows and it is even harder.

 

One of these days, they're going to have to answer the questions. Or, they won't, and everybody will know they're sticking their heads in the sands. I'd like to think that they'll do the former and actually level with us and tell us what is going on.

[Mak_Gohae]

Void drops are fine. If you want a rare item to be rare let it be rare.

Maybe you should give people that option to op out of getting rewards that are not what they are looking for since they think that the number of rewards on the table is the only thing that determines the drop rate.

 

So instead of getting stuff that they dont want if they opt out they get a pic of happy loki prime if they got the part or they get a pic of sad loki prime if they dont. That way they get to see the true drop percentage and.... i guess complain about that instead of other complains.

[Xylia]

Void drops are fine. If you want a rare item to be rare let it be rare.

Maybe you should give people that option to op out of getting rewards that are not what they are looking for since they think that the number of rewards on the table is the only thing that determines the drop rate.

 

So instead of getting stuff that they dont want if they opt out they get a pic of happy loki prime if they got the part or they get a pic of sad loki prime if they dont. That way they get to see the true drop percentage and.... i guess complain about that instead of other complains.

 

Doing the same thing over and over and over and over gets old.

 

I could accept something being more rare if I didn't have to do the same thing 30+ times to get it. Right now, I'm stuck on Rhino Chassis that WILL NOT DROP period.

 

The ONLY way to get it? Survival 3 or Survival 4.

 

Now..... if it were like other pieces... and had 2-3 different mission types it could come from, I could do a variety of missions and maybe one day I might actually see that thing drop.

 

But I am SO sick of Survival right now... it is seriously pushing me to quit playing Warframe altogether.

[TheSeannachaidh]

The token system has been mentioned many times before. It just adds a new form of currency, but there has been a lot of demand for it. We had some info on it before. I'll try to dig it up. 

That is precisely the point, though. Having a way to literally earn new gear is better than just relying on chance. The problem with RNG is that some people get new gear right away and others won't have it for months. I still haven't finished farming stuff from the Rhino Prime era releases for example. I do believe in working for rewards, so it shouldn't be cheap to earn Prime gear, but it should be an equal chance for everyone.

[KrAyZy]

Thank you!

[CreepinDeath]

What changes, exactly, other than the Player Ship?

 

Player Ship won't suddenly turn MK1-Braton into Boltor Prime, you know. Player Ship won't suddenly let Newbies do more than 5% of the total damage in an online game when put into a group with veterans (and no, blocking veterans from joining their matches is NOT the answer; that only roadblocks them like Eurasia Interception earlier this year).

 

The biggest challenges Newbies Face (that Devs have been absolutely silent about):

 

1). You CANNOT make anything other than a Cronus, or Orthos until you clear Earth. It is 100% literally impossible unless you get carried (which breaks the progression of the game through the star chart).

 

2). Grineer are too stinking powerful for newbies, especially on Earth. Come on, Hellions? Karak-wielding Lancers? How are Excaliburs supposed to fight THOSE with their almost modless Bratons and heavily nerfed Latos? Oh, and the Kubrows too. lol. I bet that's fun for a newbie who's only got Ammo Drum on their Braton...

 

3). Captain Vor is a pain in the butt with no damage mods. I managed to do it in my newbie account test, but I'm a veteran with veteran skills and knowledge of the game. I've heard of multiple newbies quitting when they couldn't get him down, even with 2-3 people.

 

Player Ships are NOT going to solve any of the above unless it allows you to go where you want on the star chart (which will only lead the newbies getting creamed on Saturn, Mars or Jupiter rather than Earth) or they can push a button and get Hornet Strikes and Serrations... oh wait, they won't have enough money to rank them up, since getting Rank5 takes at least 50k credits.

 

EDIT: My Captain Vor Fight was Pre-Lato Nerf. And it took ALL of my Braton (not MK1) ammo and half of my Lato ammo.

 

Agree 100%. I did the same with a newbie account and went through the same scenario as you (Pre-Lato nerf) and what got me through it was the hundreds of hours of experience playing Warframe.

 

On your idea about player ships and letting players go where they want to go, I think it would be neat idea. With the player ships implemented the first node on every planet should be unlocked and scaling should be done by conclave (not sure if this is best but i'm sure others can chime in). Here is what I think:

 

1. First node on each planet is unlocked after completing Terminus, Mercury (I honestly think this level should be used to extend the tutorial).

2. The first node will require a minimum conclave of 0.

3. Each node unlocked on each planet will have it's conclave increased based on the difficulty of the planet (second node on Pluto has a much higher conclave than Mercury).

4. Scaling on each mission is based on the average conclave of the group and the difficulty of the planet.

 

There is probably a better idea but this would at least allow new players to have access to all materials in the system so they can build weapons that their MR allows but still require a somewhat linear progression through the planets as they would require a certain minimum conclave to go through certain nodes. If having all planets unlocked is too many then at least Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, and Europa should be unlocked. This should provide all the materials new players need to build weapons within their MR.

[XxSeether1992xX]

That is precisely the point, though. Having a way to literally earn new gear is better than just relying on chance. The problem with RNG is that some people get new gear right away and others won't have it for months. I still haven't finished farming stuff from the Rhino Prime era releases for example. I do believe in working for rewards, so it shouldn't be cheap to earn Prime gear, but it should be an equal chance for everyone.

I have to agree. Some people literally got all of Loki Primes pieces DAY ONE. Others continue to run on bad luck and keep receiving things they already have or don't need. Quite honestly at this point having it be equal for everyone would be much better for the health of the game. Instead of having folks get discouraged / burnt out and deciding to quit.

[Amazerath]

Yep I'm pretty sure the hottest topic in the community is currently:

 

"Does Warframe have a direction? What's up with balance, challenge/mechanics, progression, RNG reliance? We're frustrated with not knowing where this is heading.

 

Can you hear us and let us know?"

 

Yep, I think that's it.

 

I think they don't answer that question because they don't have a real answer to give. The feeling I get from devstreams and updates is that they are trying to push the game in one direction but the game keeps refusing to go in any particular direction for longer then a single month. So instead of moving from point A to point B, the development seems to be moving from point A to point B, C, D, E, F and G all at the same time. The overall progress gets really slow and priorities constantly shift.

 

This, of course, is simply my own interpretation of what's happening. But if this is indeed what's going on then it becomes really hard to just point and say "that's where we want to go". Actually, saying that is not hard, but what good would it be to tell that to the community if they end up changing their minds next month? I think that's the real problem.

[CarrotSalad]

A 2nd currency wont hurt the game will it? I doubt it would do any more damage than what Argon and oxium have done.

 

I never saw it hurt any other game its just how you implement it. MMO's do it succesfully by giving players daily and weekly quests. Completing the quest gives you a token. Normally in a few weeks/months you can exchange those tokens you've saved up for the item you were hunting for if you havent received the item. Or if you got that item while you were doing daily quests allow the token to be exchanged for something else.

 

Put some quests on a few void missions a day make a rewards shop and viola. People have a reason to spread out the frequency they repeat doing missions and burn through content slower. Thats not the only solution though. I read 1 thread a few weeks ago in player concepts detailed a awesome challenge vs reward idea really unique and creative.

 

At the moment the only full proof way to get what you want is to rush rush rush and burn yourself out if rushing goes unrewarded. Thats not healthy for any games future.

Edited June 17, 2014 by CarrotSalad

[R34LM]

A Token system would work out fine. If it's so sketchy, have the tokens only be recieved from mission completions and make them unavailable for purchase or trading. That way they go directly into working towards a prime part or simiar reward and nothing else.

[(PSN)StoneRevolver]

Soon enough I will have my precious Prime Master Race! (Evil laughter)

[Nighttide77]

Guys, I'm just curious...and skeptical...if the token system is basically another form of currency that people have to earn, how would that make getting Prime parts or BPs or anything any bit faster?

 

For instance, if you get 10 Void Tokens (VT) every T3 Capture mission, and it takes 500 VT just to get a Boltor Prime BP, that's 50 T3 Captures...and just the BP.  I'm not saying this would be the price given, but...how does the Token system solve the grind issue?  If DE sets the VT price too high for different parts, people will just complain about that, too.  It seems more like a band-aid for the actual problem, rather than solving the problem, itself.  Unless I'm wrong about how this Token system is supposed to work.

 

And, sure, the RNG system doesn't make getting a Boltor Prime BP a 100% guarantee even with 50 T3/T4 MD runs, but given the statistics, there's a good chance someone else has, and that they're looking to trade or sell it.

 

If the problem is grinding, then the solution has to involve something outside of grinding.  If people just want VT just to feel like they're actually working/grinding towards something...then it might actually be more 'evil' of DE to do so; they'd be reinforcing the excessive grinding, rather than moving from it.

 

On another topic...

 

I totally agree that the newbie experience needs some work.  Players are definitely not prepared to face Vor as early as they do, and as a result are stuck grinding early missions.  I'm sure I missed it, but does anyone know if DE addressed how they're going to help new players get a better start than they've got, now?  Player ships and changing progression is one thing, but unless you've got the equipment and mods, you're stuck.  I'm almost certain that new players see that as a terrible first impression.

[Mak_Gohae]

 

Doing the same thing over and over and over and over gets old.

 

I could accept something being more rare if I didn't have to do the same thing 30+ times to get it. Right now, I'm stuck on Rhino Chassis that WILL NOT DROP period.

 

The ONLY way to get it? Survival 3 or Survival 4.

 

Now..... if it were like other pieces... and had 2-3 different mission types it could come from, I could do a variety of missions and maybe one day I might actually see that thing drop.

 

But I am SO sick of Survival right now... it is seriously pushing me to quit playing Warframe altogether.

 

How about this, since there is a rotation of reward how about if we get a rotation of enemies?

There are different sets of corrupted armies that are made up of different enemy types defending the tower.

So each fight it's a little bit different than the last.

 

Since we are not going to get different missions types pop out of nowhere they could change the fight up. 

What i do right now is pick different weapons and frames once i get tired of doing the missions again and again.