Mutalist Ospreys: Obviously Not Challenging, Just Annoying.

[InForWar]

The only challenge they are to me is the challenge of shooting them with my angstrum. there's no challenge in those ospreys. only annoyance.

[Taranis49]

DE nerfed the Mutalist ospreys spawnrate and damage... No no no no no! That still doesn't change the fact that they create a huge cloud that bypasses shields.

 

Mutalist ospreys are supposed to be SUPPORT not MAIN DAMAGER DEALERS. I realize that the infested are supposed to be a very aggressive faction, but having a small flying enemy which is a potential threat due to shield bypassing is just not fun in any way.

 

The viral or Corrosion damage idea seems to be a good one. DE, if you are reading this, please considering making it viral or corrosive instead of Toxin. Anything that doesn't bypass shields or drain all our energy is more fun than something that does and spawns often..

 

This. Like I said, note the tooltip is "carries crawlers into battle", not "covers the map in clouds of green shield-bypassing nonsense".

 

As long as the latter remains the case, it undermines the stated design goal of the new enemies "synergizing" with their buddies, the Muta-Ospreys simply end up supplanting them rather than supporting them. Which is a shame, because the carrier-crawling aspect is the most interesting part of its concept... and it's rendered an irrelevant gimmick because the Osprey itself overshadows them, the crawlers themselves are just as irrelevant as they always were.

 

In short, the main threat should be from the Osprey's cargo, not the Osprey itself.

 

They're built from the Oxium Ospreys, which are INCREDIBLY tough.  But blow up if they hit a Tenno/Player after a charge.  And Oxium Ospreys are pretty much immune to most CC effects.

 

Actually, they don't use a single Osprey type, they're built from Mine and Shield ospreys too. The visible parts of the shell/wing on the right side can actually be blue (or even a combination thereof, e.g. an Oxium/Mine "wing" while the remaining visible parts of the original central body can be blue).

 

That being said, the whole idea is that they replace most of the metal and technological bits with Infested gribblies anyway, hence why the areas where the "tail" or guns of the thing were flop around like a dead fish. Chargers don't get credit for the remaining armor bits of their former Grineer self either (atleast not since Damage 2.0 :-P)

Edited June 23, 2014 by Taranis49

[LukeAura]

"Priority target that dies fairly quickly if you shoot it." 
Not exactly a challenge, 
"Becomes incredibly dangerous if you don't kill it or if you don't even know it's there when it's effect goes off."
That leans towards punishment. Especially when coupled with the rng nature of the Toxin Proc and there relative size and position compared to natural infested sightlines. 

That being said, I disagree with how they handled the damage nerf. The damage they dealt was fine for a surprise attack, and it forced you to relocate away from whatever fortified nest you were in or position you tend to like using. The rng proc of toxin was the real killer, quadrupling their potential damage output beyond any hope of player control. 
A true 'challenge' as opposed to a punishment is something that is challenging when you are actively engaging it and aware of its presence but still have difficulty taking it down. Juggernauts will be a challenge, a defensively oriented infested that even though you know how to kill it, it is easier said than done and you can't miss them either they're going to be pretty big.

[Hunter3.0]

Agreed, but one note, while doing some BG runs, enemies at level 2000+ , those clouds are an instant kill.. dhat's op

[Mak_Gohae]

This. Like I said, note the tooltip is "carries crawlers into battle", not "covers the map in clouds of green shield-bypassing nonsense".

 

As long as the latter remains the case, it undermines the stated design goal of the new enemies "synergizing" with their buddies, the Muta-Ospreys simply end up supplanting them rather than supporting them. Which is a shame, because the carrier-crawling aspect is the most interesting part of its concept... and it's rendered an irrelevant gimmick because the Osprey itself overshadows them, the crawlers themselves are just as irrelevant as they always were.

 

In short, the main threat should be from the Osprey's cargo, not the Osprey itself.

 

Just because in the 4 word description it says it carrier crawler that doesnt mean that's the only thing it should do.

Specially since DE took out the crawler's ability to attack while being carried.

An Osprey carrying a crawler does nothing, the crawlers can move just as well without being carried.

 

The unit started out as an unique combo that now has been tuned down destroying it's point.... which is something that happens constantly in this game.

[PsiWarp]

After the hotfix they are much easier to handle. Still hits hard, but more manageable.

 

Now, if only they can float near the ground after farting, so sword alone is viable... then that'd be wonderful.

[FlakAttack]

As I see it, there are several problems with the Mutalist Ospreys. DE likely doesn't need to nerf all of these, but nerfing at least some of them would make them far more manageable:

 

1- Obviously the hitbox. Sorry OP, I have to bring it up because jesus how do you hit these things?

2- Too much HP. After only a few BG runs I saw Ash shurikens hit for 750 and it didn't drop the Osprey. For something that small and that hard to hit, that seems off.

3- Charge ability is silent and Ospreys are often hard to see. You never know it's coming until you're already dying.

3- The toxin clouds do too much damage too fast, and the toxin proc is absolutely ridiculous.

4- The toxin cloud range is too big (and in fact farther than it looks).

5- Along with being horrifically annoying and even OP later on, they don't drop anything nice. This only adds to how annoying they are.

 

Overall I'd just like to say the Muties are not difficult to kill or challenging in any way: they are simply extremely annoying and feel really cheap, like insta-kill enemies designed to suck quarters out of kids in an arcade.

[cleverboots]

Most people here have made fair enough points about what is wrong/right with them, but I honestly think for a support type unit, it would make more sense for them to put down an entirely different cloud. Maybe a cloud of pheromones that any infected who walk through would become enraged, gaining some damage buff/speed/etc, and maybe doing minor ticks of damage to a tenno inside the cloud, but primarily an aoe buff for the infected as a whole.

 

Maybe make it not last too long, like 30 seconds or something unless they go back through the cloud, this would in my opinion make them a relatively interesting support unit.

 

That being said, I have heard from many people that the main problem they have with these little buggers, is when they go into ODD/infected defense and get a solid wave of them, and the entire map literally becomes a death field that is unavoidable through any means of skill/effort. I understand defense is a commonly farmed and not too difficult mode these days, as it has always been, and an enemy that forces you to move around could spice that up a bit, at the same time at least make them rare in those particular modes.

 

I personally can't attest to their power because when I ran the event I just slapped rhino prime on, ran through it till I got the vandal, and stopped, so any opinions I have on their damage in a normal mission means nothing.

 

random note, Have not experienced if the poison cloud damages the crypod either yet, but I feel like myself and any other players who were around way back when, can attest to how frustrating it was when a toxic ancient just died on the pod, and there was literally nothing you could do but wait to lose.

[Taranis49]

Just because in the 4 word description it says it carrier crawler that doesnt mean that's the only thing it should do.

Specially since DE took out the crawler's ability to attack while being carried.

An Osprey carrying a crawler does nothing, the crawlers can move just as well without being carried.

 

The unit started out as an unique combo that now has been tuned down destroying it's point.... which is something that happens constantly in this game.

 

No, but it should be the primary thing they do, considering that's the aspect that's actually advertised in its intended role as a support unit that synergizes with its buddies. To reiterate the point, the threat should primarily come from the Osprey's cargo, not the Osprey itself.

 

That's the hallmark of how a well-designed support unit works: It's not the support itself that's all that threatening, it's the units it's supporting. It's what's known as a force multiplier.

 

Each constituent part of a force should actually serve a purpose, if any part of it doesn't or is basically irrelevant, it's a failure in design and force composition. No if's, and's, or but's. As-is the case here, the Ospreys don't increase the threat posed by their cargo, they render it moot. Incidentally, it's why I've actually advocated for allowing crawlers to attack while being carried, so they can actually benefit from the increase in mobility.

[LukeAura]

Most people here have made fair enough points about what is wrong/right with them, but I honestly think for a support type unit, it would make more sense for them to put down an entirely different cloud. Maybe a cloud of pheromones that any infected who walk through would become enraged, gaining some damage buff/speed/etc, and maybe doing minor ticks of damage to a tenno inside the cloud, but primarily an aoe buff for the infected as a whole.

I feel that's a little passive/self supportive for the infested. I think it'd be better if it was a debuff that created those effects by being applied to the Tenno if they stay too long/get hit by the cloud. Any Infested with a range of the Tenno gets a speed buff and immediately charges for him. 

Kind of like being hit with Boomer Bile in Left 4 Dead. 

 

[cleverboots]

I feel that's a little passive/self supportive for the infested. I think it'd be better if it was a debuff that created those effects by being applied to the Tenno if they stay too long/get hit by the cloud. Any Infested with a range of the Tenno gets a speed buff and immediately charges for him. 

Kind of like being hit with Boomer Bile in Left 4 Dead. 

 

possibly, I was mostly just stating a potential, most likely DE will do neither, and they will just stay as they are forever, but we have to at least throw some ideas around, they might take one...sometimes...possibly.

[Mak_Gohae]

 

No, but it should be the primary thing they do, considering that's the aspect that's actually advertised in its intended role as a support unit that synergizes with its buddies. To reiterate the point, the threat should primarily come from the Osprey's cargo, not the Osprey itself.

 

That's the hallmark of how a well-designed support unit works: It's not the support itself that's all that threatening, it's the units it's supporting. It's what's known as a force multiplier.

 

Each constituent part of a force should actually serve a purpose, if any part of it doesn't or is basically irrelevant, it's a failure in design and force composition. No if's, and's, or but's. As-is the case here, the Ospreys don't increase the threat posed by their cargo, they render it moot. Incidentally, it's why I've actually advocated for allowing crawlers to attack while being carried, so they can actually benefit from the increase in mobility.

 

Again, your argument based on your own personal rule of law on how this unit should work which, of course, means nothing to anyone but you and whoever agrees with you. No one at DE has ever stated that what the words used to describe something are in fact all that certain thing can do. This is just your idea. Most of the Infested units perform one attack, i dont see why adding a unit that can do more than one thing is such a big deal. BTW, i dont care about the wording on the description, this is why i am saying this. 

 

Anyway, maybe they should break up the unit into two variations, the Mutalist Carrier that keeps the Crawler ability to attack while being carried and the Mutalist Rushers that comes in just to rush and leave poison all over the place. Is this better? One support type and one attack type.

 

And maybe they could bring back the Runner's ability to turn into a crawler when they take a certain amount of damage and when that happens the Carriers picks them up runs away form the battle to mutates them into one of the different crawler types then brings them back. How about that? This sounds interesting. 

[Loswaith]

Actually I dont mind them, but like a few others have mentioned the danger isnt the gas cloud itself, its the toxic proc staying with you that is the issue.  Much like Bleeding from evicerators this is just insane ticks of damage (75+ damage per tic) even after you leave the clouds.  I've been out of a cloud standing on 3 group heal pods and had he toxin proc still drop me (abet just) from level 35+ Mutalists, and thats from a single proc.

 

The clouds are fine IMO remove the ability for the proc, and I think they would actually be a somewhat interesting area denial unit (though damage at higher levels would still be an issue but thats an issue across the board not just to mutalists alone).

 

Alternativly just chuck the armouring Nanite clouds in them and that would make them interesting as well while being less deadly.

[Flamed]

They should have better hitboxes and less health similar to a regular osprey. I would also like to see their poison damage reduced. It should be a poison cloud that deals damage SLOWLY over time. Not a poison cloud that can kill a low hp frame with just a single status effect.

 

Ospreys should support other infested. They shouldn't have the killing power of an ancient. I would like to see their poison gas become something like a Spitter from left 4 dead. The initial damage they deal should warn people to get out of the gas. It shouldn't kill you unless you stay in there too long.

 

Also, I think its a good thing that DE nerfed them. Any new enemies or traps that required you to play rhino to counter them shouldn't be in the game.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Flamed

[Mak_Gohae]

They should have better hitboxes and less health similar to a regular osprey. I would also like to see their poison damage reduced. It should be a poison cloud that deals damage SLOWLY over time. Not a poison cloud that can kill a low hp frame with just a single status effect.

 

Ospreys should support other infested. They shouldn't have the killing power of an ancient. I would like to see their poison gas become something like a Spitter from left 4 dead. The initial damage they deal should warn people to get out of the gas. It shouldn't kill you unless you stay in there too long.

 

Also, I think its a good thing that DE nerfed them. Any new enemies or traps that required you to play rhino to counter them shouldn't be in the game.

 

You werent required to play Rhino, all you had to do is put up a few mods to help yourself if you had that much trouble.

cause some folks were saying that Mutalists in the 20s rank were taking down up to 1k health from the 8 second proc.

[Taranis49]

Again, your argument based on your own personal rule of law on how this unit should work which, of course, means nothing to anyone but you and whoever agrees with you. No one at DE has ever stated that what the words used to describe something are in fact all that certain thing can do. This is just your idea. Most of the Infested units perform one attack, i dont see why adding a unit that can do more than one thing is such a big deal. BTW, i dont care about the wording on the description, this is why i am saying this. 

 

Anyway, maybe they should break up the unit into two variations, the Mutalist Carrier that keeps the Crawler ability to attack while being carried and the Mutalist Rushers that comes in just to rush and leave poison all over the place. Is this better? One support type and one attack type.

 

And maybe they could bring back the Runner's ability to turn into a crawler when they take a certain amount of damage and when that happens the Carriers picks them up runs away form the battle to mutates them into one of the different crawler types then brings them back. How about that? This sounds interesting. 

 

Um... no, it's based on DE's own stated design goal of the units supporting and synergizing with one another, the tooltip description merely illustrates the point. Nice strawman though. Fact is, supplanting is not synergizing or supporting. This is holding them to their stated goals for the unit, and the unit doesn't fulfill those parameters.

 

Hint, I was involved in this stuff for a living - these are the (very) basic fundamental facts of how a properly designed force functions. It's true of pretty much any military force. Each constituent part has a role and serves a purpose, if it doesn't, then there's no reason to have it because it's superfluous. That's not opinion, it's objective fact - note that we don't send formations of dudes on horseback charging into enemies anymore.

 

In game terms, that means if one unit (particularly one that's meant to be supporting its buddies) ends up simply overshadowing them, it's broken - it's not fulfilling its intended purpose and it's rendering the units it should be supporting irrelevant. Again, fact - you don't even bother denying as much. It's also why simply making a version that only attacks (lol, way to miss the point, incidentally) does absolutely nothing to actually fix the problem.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Taranis49

[Mak_Gohae]

Um... no, it's based on DE's own stated design goal of the units supporting and synergizing with one another, the tooltip description merely illustrates the point. Nice strawman though. Fact is, supplanting is not synergizing or supporting. This is holding them to their stated goals for the unit, and the unit doesn't fulfill those parameters.

 

 

Do you want to tell exactly where DE said that this unit will only lift things and not do anything else?

Was it a Dev Stream? I didnt see 30 yet, was it there?

Because if DE said no such thing this is all your theories that do not need to be followed by DE.

[Taranis49]

Do you want to tell exactly where DE said that this unit will only lift things and not do anything else?

Was it a Dev Stream? I didnt see 30 yet, was it there?

Because if DE said no such thing this is all your theories that do not need to be followed by DE.

 

Again, not theory, fact. I'll note that you didn't even try to contest the main point (because you clearly can't), though you do a lackluster job of dancing around it.

 

Does the unit support its buddies and multiply their impact? Yes or no. because this is something a support unit must to do, by definition. I'll save you the trouble, you've already admitted the units it's supposed to be supporting don't gain anything from its presence. Ergo, by DE's own standards the unit's a failed design.

 

The fact that it actually renders the units it's supposed to be supporting with no discernable purpose is simply the cherry on the poor design cake, (again, a point you try to dance around and apparently hope I won't notice or call you out on).

 

Seriously, in your rush to be the contrarian White-Knighter, you do an absolutely wonderful job of undermining your own "points" for me. ;-)

Edited June 24, 2014 by Taranis49

[Mak_Gohae]

Again, not theory, fact.

 

If it's fact would you mind showing where DE stated so?

I have been asking for a while and you have not provided info on this fact.

 

I'll note that you didn't even try to contest the main point (because you clearly can't), though you do a lackluster job of dancing around it.

 

My point is to show that your view of the unit is not DE's view. I am not here to disprove your view in you mind because your view is obvious and it's unlikely to change.

 

Does the unit support its buddies and multiply their impact? Yes or no. because this is something a support unit must to do, by definition.

 

When did DE clearly state this is a support unit?

It hasn't as far as i know, this if your definition of the unit.

And it's pretty obvious that your definition of the unit is not the standard.

 

I'll save you the trouble, you've already admitted the units it's supposed to be supporting don't gain anything from its presence. Ergo, by DE's own standards the unit's a failed design.

 

Never did admit this was a support unit.

 

The fact that it actually renders the units it's supposed to be supporting with no discernable purpose is simply the cherry on the poor design cake, (again, a point you try to dance around and apparently hope I won't notice or call you out on).

 

The mutalist is a two stage unit like the Fusion MOA, or the Tech, or the Seer.

DE is bringing back a two stage unit the Infested had at one point but was taken out and has lacked for a long time.

 

Seriously, in your rush to be the contrarian White-Knighter, you do an absolutely wonderful job of undermining your own "points" for me. ;-)

 

Of course, a different view than your must meant a white-knight has appeared.

That is the only reason a person can have a different view.

[Sarmon]

Something just crossed my mind.

 

When Kubrows are released, will they know not to stay in that toxic cloud? No AI has any intellgence about not-standing in deadly areas, so probably not. That's gonna be awful.

[Semshol]

Sorry, I'm new but I just wanted to say, I've had 0 problems with the Ospreys. I feel like they're a game mechanic. The only ones who die to them are those who can't quickly identify and recognize them. Seriously some dudes run INTO the clouds and die and then I revive them and they just do it over and over like they've got learning problems. Depending on the frame you're running there are several ways to counter the Ospreys.

 

1) Bring a weapon that doesn't fire a travel-time projectile - Seriously, why do people bring bows to find infested? Just...why...my rifle with punch through does way better and there is no charge time and I can respond to the situation. I hate having to carry the bowbies (bow wielding newbies). It's not tough to kill the Ospreys if you've modded your weapon well...Even at the much higher levels

 

2) Know your Warframe's capability - If you're fighting infested...bring a frame that ISN'T a horrible choice. Nova is excellent, I love having those. I personally run a Mag against the infested. Some people like Rhinos, those are good. A couple like to bring Embers. Try not to bring Excalipoor or Joki (because decoy is a joke sometimes seriously).

 

3) Orthos, orthos, orthos - Reach, Furry (yes I meant to say that), Pressure Point, Fire, Rending Strike? (The one with the slashy and punctury), Southwest Voodoo. I more or less melee the Ospreys when they come into choke areas. Maybe it doesn't work like that when they're level 35+ but by that time you should have the health regening mod (it's what I'm searching for right now). Either way, the Orthos is a useful warpon for Ospreying.

 

Hope this helps anyone having trouble with them!

[Twilight053]

It's okay. I understand that you people hate challenge. Not everyone is hardcore.

[Nagisawa]

Actually, they don't use a single Osprey type, they're built from Mine and Shield ospreys too. The visible parts of the shell/wing on the right side can actually be blue (or even a combination thereof, e.g. an Oxium/Mine "wing" while the remaining visible parts of the original central body can be blue).

I meant coding wise, they use the same base as the Oxium one.  The Mine and Shield Ospreys are much weaker and can be taken down with a few blasts from any weapon.

[Nagisawa]

It's okay. I understand that you people hate challenge. Not everyone is hardcore.

You think these things are a 'challenge'?  Really? You've obviously never played truly hard game, like Megaman (the original one on NES.).  That game is a challenge.  This?  This is easy.  Damage sponges and massive damage per hit/tick isn't difficulty, it's lazy, it's a cheap trick to apparently fool people like you.into thinking they're a challenge.

 

The issue is that this isn't fun, this is an annoyance.  We want a challenge.  Something you evidently never had.

 

The cloud of poison is a cheap tactic, especially if you're in a mission in which things spawn in enclosed rooms.  (Seriously, there was a room with only one way out, we cleaned it out and then they started spawning directly from that room, which had no entrance.  Constant spawn is also not a challenge, it's a tedium.)

Edited June 24, 2014 by Nagisawa

[Little-Cunny]

When I did the event, I never died to these guys.... But playing defense... Good thing they took them out of defense FOR NOW.