Hybridization Is Getting Out Of Hand Now (Melee)

[H0PE]

I know every parent is crazy when they say something bad toward their children, so is DE closes eyes and ears when we try and try and try telling them that something need to be fixed/changed...

 

Pushing us to do melee only because they think its awesome is getting really too much now for me with this shield and sword. Are we going to turn from ninjas to ninja-knight-paladins-assassin now?

 

Melee only is not viable, until:

-Animation speed is not exactly as fast and non-blocky as quick melee attacks

-Stacks go away way too fast. You can't use an ability then continue attacking enemies, let alone jump to another group of enemies without resetting the stacks. You are powerful for a second with your stacks... great. :S

-Melee combos are way too slow to be used efficiently. So far since u13 launched I didn't see one player doing combos in any of my games. Not one, ever!

-I won't even start on the mods, most of the melee mods now totally inefficient.

 

Replace quick melee with the normal melee system and then you make it a tiny bit more viable. But combos are failed as it is.

 

Making this shield and sword for animator and design standpoint is sure exciting. For us players using it is really sounds cool to developers in an environment with laser rifles and shotguns and flamethowers?!! X.x

[Mirriky]

The system still needs work, I think the biggest is the weapon switch speed

Adding more utility mods would be great

And making the combo chain last longer, I kill everything in the group and before I can take 2 steps to the next guy the combo is gone.

And possibly bigger hitboxes for some of the stranger aimed attacks (Scythe kick always misses)

[Somedude1000]

The current system is okay actually, but it isn't as rewarding as it can be, because players feel like ' why do i need to go down this combo path, when E E E lets me do just about the same thin g but quicker and easier? There isn't a good enough payoff to equip melee and then use combo paths when you have a rifle that does just about the same thing from far away. T

 

he combo counter is nice, but getting it high in the first place, then executing a combo makes it feel clunky, and thats not a good thing sometimes considering warframe is a fast paced game.

 

In addition, it would be handy to have 2 slots on melee weps that only work for channeling mods, so that players can keep their old mbuilds, and be encouraged to use their channel mods more often

Edited July 14, 2014 by Somedude1000

[Dtexas]

The sword and board was put into the game because it won a design contest, it was designed by a community member.

 

Yes melee has its issue, every game has its issues. That doesn't mean DE should just stop and re-think everything, thats not how game development works.

[Owmion]

Pushing us to do melee only because they think its awesome is getting really too much now for me with this shield and sword. Are we going to turn from ninjas to ninja-knight-paladins-assassin now?

What have you against  ninja-knight-paladins-assassin ?

[Ionus]

We stopped being ninjas when the fragor became a thing.

[vaugahn]

The problem I see with the sword and shield is it's identical in function to dual swords. From what we saw in the devstream, the combos are basically "hit with sword, hit with shield, hit with sword again." Unless it offers some advantage to blocking (maybe even a shield bash) I will be thoroughly disappointed.

[BrotherIcarus]

I actually see no reason for this thread.

[Alphafox]

What is the subject of that thread?

[Adaptor-Face]

you guys know you can do the combos while mashing E the whole time by just hold backwards (or block in machete stance for one of the combos)? this allows for attackspeed to not get in the way of the combos with 200% dmg boost

[D3ST]

Yep we know this Adaptor, but melee still feels way to slow and clunky compared to just shooting the mobs..

and have you tried to go melee only on Infested survival missions? its gets impossible around the 30 min mark..

(Poison clouds and toxic aincients everywhere..)

[StinkyPygmy]

Needs work. But I have no idea why some players seem to think melee only isn't viable. I have no problems going sword alone until I start hitting T4. Even then it is doable provided you use a bit of forethought. And I'm not talking about perma invis loki either.

I use combos all the time and when I actually have a chance to pay attention I see other players using them from time to time. In fact the biggest problem is everything is dead after one or two hits. 

 

I agree it needs work, but as far as it not being viable or enjoyable I have to call bullS#&$.

Just because something needs a bit if work or practice doesn't make it bad.

Sure I COULD walk into a room and spam 4 or take out everything in seconds with (insert weapon of choice here) but I could also charge in with my Ichors and take an extra 5 seconds to kill everything while looking badass.

 

Sometimes its about fun/choice over pure stats and efficiency. 

I don't understand how people obsessed with stats and perfect builds bordering on neurosis even bother with vidya games.

Edited July 14, 2014 by StinkyPygmy

[(PSN)CrimsonShinku]

going into melee mode is a nerf to gameplay is his point, and i agree. most combos have no use other than being flashy, some have their uses like guaranteed proc chance and such but those are pretty rare. going into a melee stance means that you're forfeiting all your long-range options. it's much better to just spam E on an enemy, and say something dangerous appears in the distance, you can do a quick kick to drop down what you're meleeing, unleash a barrage of bullets on the enemy in the distance, and inmediately get back to instant-melee.

 

this is what the melee system needs, or i'd say the whole weapon system, a way to make all weapons usable on reaction at fast speeds. have the limitation be the player's reflexes and not values set by the game.

 

another great example is when your character gets switch teleported by the grineer. i react fast to the teleport and know exactly where i'm standing before my avatar in the screen is done with the "where the hell am i" animation, and i just have to sit through it. what a ninja.

[Cesvela]

You do know there's rhino the tank, frost the Mage, trin the clertic, Oberon the paladin, ash the assassin, nekros obviously the necromancer, then aton of AOE classes, then did you realize something yet? This is a MMO not a shooter like cod. Of course it would have the variety the usual mmos have otherwise this wouldn't be as great and Diverse as it is now and we love it!

[paragasu]

-Melee combos are way too slow to be used efficiently. So far since u13 launched I didn't see one player doing combos in any of my games. Not one, ever!

-I won't even start on the mods, most of the melee mods now totally inefficient.

 

 

Are you saying people like me an my usual party didn't exist? >:O

You know what we use combo instead of those boring channeling...combo =fun...its like asian martial art....you have to properly master them to use them properly instead of just go near enemy, channel and press eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...or spry bullets

[Husbandry]

A ninja can't use [x].

 

Doesn't ninja use anything viable as weapons though?

[Rogue-Exsul-]

Pushing us to do melee only because they think its awesome is getting really too much now for me with this shield and sword. Are we going to turn from ninjas to ninja-knight-paladins-assassin now?

 

Because everyone knows ninjas prefer guns..........Heaven forbid they start favoring the blade.

[Shehriazad]

My 2 main griefs are how long weapon switching takes and how hard it is to keep up combos with some weapons.


Only maybe a quarter of the weapons can actually build up a combo effectively...."coincidentally" those weapons are the ones' that are strong ones' to begin with.


Speed up some animations, raise the combo count maximum time inbetween hits and half the weapon switch time accross all weapons. No one wants to use that S#&$ty aura...and it's not very ninja like that you need half an hour to switch between weapons that you prepared before a mission.

[StinkyPygmy]

My 2 main griefs are how long weapon switching takes and how hard it is to keep up combos with some weapons.

Only maybe a quarter of the weapons can actually build up a combo effectively...."coincidentally" those weapons are the ones' that are strong ones' to begin with.

Speed up some animations, raise the combo count maximum time inbetween hits and half the weapon switch time accross all weapons. No one wants to use that S#&$ty aura...and it's not very ninja like that you need half an hour to switch between weapons that you prepared before a mission.

I agree, a faster drawing speed would be great. Its a pain when I want to use melee wep at a moments notice but don't want to rely on quick strikes because I plan on using it for more then two seconds. Also speed holster doesn't even make much of a difference anyway.

[Kayobi]

I know every parent is crazy when they say something bad toward their children, so is DE closes eyes and ears when we try and try and try telling them that something need to be fixed/changed...

 

Pushing us to do melee only because they think its awesome is getting really too much now for me with this shield and sword. Are we going to turn from ninjas to ninja-knight-paladins-assassin now?

 

Melee only is not viable, until:

-Animation speed is not exactly as fast and non-blocky as quick melee attacks

-Stacks go away way too fast. You can't use an ability then continue attacking enemies, let alone jump to another group of enemies without resetting the stacks. You are powerful for a second with your stacks... great. :S

-Melee combos are way too slow to be used efficiently. So far since u13 launched I didn't see one player doing combos in any of my games. Not one, ever!

-I won't even start on the mods, most of the melee mods now totally inefficient.

 

Replace quick melee with the normal melee system and then you make it a tiny bit more viable. But combos are failed as it is.

 

Making this shield and sword for animator and design standpoint is sure exciting. For us players using it is really sounds cool to developers in an environment with laser rifles and shotguns and flamethowers?!! X.x

 

Having not seen a response from you over these last couple hours, I presume you don't care about the thread anymore. But, out of extreme boredom and my want to elaborate, I'll break down what you're saying and try to make discussion!

 

I don't really see how the Silva & Aegis is "pushing us to do melee only" any more than other weapon types are. Cursory searches on the weapon doesn't bring up any information that would cause such a reaction. As for "Hybridization", it being out of hand or not is purely personal preference. Additionally, if we're going to critique Tenno "Ninja" technique, we haven't been very close to it at all every since the beginning.

 

Addressing your points one at a time:

-Quick Melee is supposed to be a... Well, quick attack. Going into your Melee Stance is supposed to serve as a more interesting, interactive method of using Melee. The animations won't mesh quite as well due to it having a combo system, which Quick Melee lacks. That comes up with virtually any game with something akin to Combos.

-Whilst I agree that your Combo Counter fades rather quickly, if memory serves, that mechanic was introduced as a way to make less powerful and/or multi-hit-centric weapons feasible when it comes to bigger foes. Instead of chipping away at, say, a Grineer Scorch for 20 blows, it's there so that you can kill it in a dozen or so. It isn't meant to be a consistent thing that you can build throughout a room. Assuming my memory from Prime Time/DevStreams is correct.

-Some Combos are rather slow, but most have an added benefit, such as affecting multiple foes in the swing's arc, acting as if you just did a Mid-Air attack, or having greater lateral movement. As for your observation of no one using it, that is likely to be a symptom of gun-play being easier and, ussualy, more efficient.

-I find them quite the contrary. Reflex Coil, Killing Blow, and Pressure Point can make or break a weapon. Nearly any weapon with those mods can pump out quite a lot of damage in a very short time, and with minimal energy cost. Killing Blow alone makes Channeling cost a single point of Energy per strike that lands, making it efficient in multiple ways.

 

Replacing Quick Melee with the combo system isn't a miracle solution, as you may think. Some combos require other inputs (such as holding Parry (Right Mouse by default) or holding S (or whatever you ave set to move backwards)). Additionally, Channeling requires you to hold down Left Mouse by default, which could, at the least, result in wasted ammo with improper execution, and at the worst, result in damaging yourself with explosive weaponry.

 

In regards to the weapon fitting the setting, what does it really matter? Warframe runs off of "Rule of Cool" as one of its primary Tropes (check out tvtropes.com for an explanation of it. It's pretty obvious, but it's a lovely website all the same) so having something that you think doesn't fit in is entirely irrelevant.

 

 

Now, should you decide to respond, take note that I'm not attempting to be patronizing. I am adding counterpoints to your argument in an attempt to add some proper discussion. Please excuse any potentially "hostile" sounding wording. As we all know, text makes intent very difficult to portray.

[LascarCapable]

Moved to a better section.

 

Title edited for clarity.

[StinkyPygmy]

Having not seen a response from you over these last couple hours, I presume you don't care about the thread anymore. But, out of extreme boredom and my want to elaborate, I'll break down what you're saying and try to make discussion!

 

I don't really see how the Silva & Aegis is "pushing us to do melee only" any more than other weapon types are. Cursory searches on the weapon doesn't bring up any information that would cause such a reaction. As for "Hybridization", it being out of hand or not is purely personal preference. Additionally, if we're going to critique Tenno "Ninja" technique, we haven't been very close to it at all every since the beginning.

 

Addressing your points one at a time:

-Quick Melee is supposed to be a... Well, quick attack. Going into your Melee Stance is supposed to serve as a more interesting, interactive method of using Melee. The animations won't mesh quite as well due to it having a combo system, which Quick Melee lacks. That comes up with virtually any game with something akin to Combos.

-Whilst I agree that your Combo Counter fades rather quickly, if memory serves, that mechanic was introduced as a way to make less powerful and/or multi-hit-centric weapons feasible when it comes to bigger foes. Instead of chipping away at, say, a Grineer Scorch for 20 blows, it's there so that you can kill it in a dozen or so. It isn't meant to be a consistent thing that you can build throughout a room. Assuming my memory from Prime Time/DevStreams is correct.

-Some Combos are rather slow, but most have an added benefit, such as affecting multiple foes in the swing's arc, acting as if you just did a Mid-Air attack, or having greater lateral movement. As for your observation of no one using it, that is likely to be a symptom of gun-play being easier and, ussualy, more efficient.

-I find them quite the contrary. Reflex Coil, Killing Blow, and Pressure Point can make or break a weapon. Nearly any weapon with those mods can pump out quite a lot of damage in a very short time, and with minimal energy cost. Killing Blow alone makes Channeling cost a single point of Energy per strike that lands, making it efficient in multiple ways.

 

Replacing Quick Melee with the combo system isn't a miracle solution, as you may think. Some combos require other inputs (such as holding Parry (Right Mouse by default) or holding S (or whatever you ave set to move backwards)). Additionally, Channeling requires you to hold down Left Mouse by default, which could, at the least, result in wasted ammo with improper execution, and at the worst, result in damaging yourself with explosive weaponry.

 

In regards to the weapon fitting the setting, what does it really matter? Warframe runs off of "Rule of Cool" as one of its primary Tropes (check out tvtropes.com for an explanation of it. It's pretty obvious, but it's a lovely website all the same) so having something that you think doesn't fit in is entirely irrelevant.

 

 

Now, should you decide to respond, take note that I'm not attempting to be patronizing. I am adding counterpoints to your argument in an attempt to add some proper discussion. Please excuse any potentially "hostile" sounding wording. As we all know, text makes intent very difficult to portray.

^^^ Pretty much this. Somewhere along the line WF became about 'efficiency' over fun for a lot of players.

Melee is entirely optional and hopefully more changes to make it happen still come.

 

In the mean time I'm going to continue hacking and slashing my way to victory when the urge tickles me.

[Warriorrogue]

^^^ Pretty much this. Somewhere along the line WF became about 'efficiency' over fun for a lot of players.

Melee is entirely optional and hopefully more changes to make it happen still come.

 

In the mean time I'm going to continue hacking and slashing my way to victory when the urge tickles me.

Yeah. I did go for efficiency for a bit, then then thought "Screw this". The end result is that I'm now pushing 1.5K hours on steam.

Hopefully, though, they do do more work on melee 2.0, improving the combos, and more importantly, adding to stances with few combos.

[Tar_Spit_Fire]

all we need is:
*longer combo counter fade time
*faster attack speed while melee is equipped/revert the fury attack speed enhancement back to 60%
*add aerial attack combo 
*add spammable quick dash animation by double tapping direction key while eqquipng melee to:1)  avoid ancient slap, ground punch and etc etc 2)chain combo to nearby 5m+ enemy faster

[Kayobi]

Yeah. I did go for efficiency for a bit, then then thought "Screw this". The end result is that I'm now pushing 1.5K hours on steam.

Hopefully, though, they do do more work on melee 2.0, improving the combos, and more importantly, adding to stances with few combos.

DE has actually added some combos to older Stances already. I'm expecting all of the stances to have at least three full combos sooner or later.

 

all we need is:

*longer combo counter fade time

*faster attack speed while melee is equipped/revert the fury attack speed enhancement back to 60%

*add aerial attack combo 

*add spammable quick dash animation by double tapping direction key while eqquipng melee to:1)  avoid ancient slap, ground punch and etc etc 2)chain combo to nearby 5m+ enemy faster

Remember, faster attack speeds also means that combo inputs will be more difficult. As for the quick dash, I think avoiding that silly K-Styling hullabaloo from GUNZ would be best for the game, but what do I know?