Devstream Overview 32 Part 2, Scaling, Balance And Mods

[DE_Adam]

While Part 1 of our Devstream Overview covered many of the changes that will be coming with Update 14 or in the near future thereafter one of the biggest subjects discussed was a matter of in game balance, and it’s something that really deserves its own spotlight to review and discuss from time to time.  Game difficulty and scaling is a constant subject of discussion in both Warframe’s player community and our development team, and it’s a conversation we want to keep as open as possible.

 

 

It’s certainly no secret that many of our events give us an opportunity to test tweaks to mission design and mechanics.  With the Star Chart seeing a complete overhaul and a quest system coming in to help better guide newer players U14 is the perfect opportunity for us to test out difficulty scaling.

 

In short the scaling will allow players to revisit Vor’s Prize (the first quest in game) at a higher level tier than the quest was originally designed for.  This means of course that players looking to experience the quest again can do so with a challenge rating more appropriate to their level, although whether or not this would provide additional quest rewards is still unknown at this time.

 

In game quests will not only be a way for us to provide new players with direction, but to potentially assist their progression with rewards as well.  Between that and being able to select from a few weapons, early game should not only be easier to understand but also a lot more fun to participate in.

 

 

A large portion of the Devstream was dedicated to talk of Mods, and while much of the discussion lay on the current state of Mods a lot of great points were made on the subject of approaching Mods in the near future.  There were no fancy pictures here, but in the meantime you can enjoy this screenshot of my Valkyr-In-Progress!

 

The Mod system currently in Warframe isn’t perfect, but it does represent the core of what we would like players to be able to accomplish in game through tweaks to their characters and weapons.  Mods are by structure a means of breaking the game in the players favor, adjusting mechanics, damage, and abilities to better suite a specific play style or purpose.  By having the design of each build allow players to make and/or break the rules of Warframe at the player’s whim we can create challenge players to approach scenarios in a wide variety of ways, and coupled with Warframe abilities themselves the potential strategy involved in Warframe is actually quite large.

 

The problem is finding an appropriate bell curve for mods, and that’s not an easy thing to find a solution for when you consider that weapons, Warframes, and Sentinels are all non-standard from player to player.  Bare ‘essential’ Mods like Serration can always be adjusted to provide less benefit in order to make secondary Mod choices more appealing, but the focus of our development team is not making continuous trial changes to the core gameplay of Warframe in an attempt to find what works.

 

We want to visit Mods and refine them at some point, and we have a lot of different ideas on where to go with that.  Looking at our existing Mods is just as important as making more Mods (or creating bandaid Mods), and tradeoff Mods do offer a greater variety on expanding various playstyles; but it’s important to remember that our goal with Mod cards is to make sure that builds can represent a wide variety of gameplay options for a wide range of game types.

 

 

The Liset is actually a great example of this, a core gameplay element that can be built upon but is not so mandatory that players are required to interact with the ship in a specific manner in order to accomplish any task.  With the completion of the Liset we can start to turn our heads toward docking hubs that allow for further player interaction, but that’s much further in the future.

 

While our Devstream’s always contains an element of speculation into the continued development of Warframe this we understand that this particular stream dove pretty far into core elements of the game that we’re not entirely ready to discuss our approach to.  Please keep in mind that when the time comes for us to prioritize any kind of changes to core game mechanics you Tenno will be the first to know.

[Kestral9999]

FIRST! sorry, just had to get it out there lol

 

Thanks for the update, I missed the devstream unfortunately. When will it be available to view on the media tab?

Edited July 14, 2014 by Kestral9999

[-Jaze-]

FIRST! sorry, just had to get it out there lol

 

Thanks for the update, I missed the devstream unfortunately. When will it be available to view on the media tab?

Oh stop!

[SirSlayer]

Well atleast tell us what your "core vision" is. Right now it seems that you don't know that yourself. Changing the "vision" every now and then.

[SoulEchelon]

Interesting stuff. It only makes me even more intrigued for the future.

[(PSN)jenax002]

First of all, This clears up little bit of the hate surrounding the mod system that has been going on forever on a separate forum topic (was discussed in devstream) where people for some odd reason want to make warframe the same as any other MMO game out there (a skill based progression system).

 

I love the current Mod system even though its not perfect at the moment. I love the freedom of choosing the way i want to play. For example my volt has a super rush build while my friend has an all around build with shock, overload and speed.

[bejuizb]

Well, you don't need to bell curve mods or give them readjustments in bonus values. Simply give them varying traits and make duplicates with different traits. Instant variety and choice. (A short adaptation of notionphil's idea)

[BlueSabre]

In short the scaling will allow players to revisit Vor’s Prize (the first quest in game) at a higher level tier than the quest was originally designed for.  This means of course that players looking to experience the quest again can do so with a challenge rating more appropriate to their level, although whether or not this would provide additional quest rewards is still unknown at this time.

 

Does this mean that after we complete Vor's prize we will be able to choose the difficulty after we complete it, or does this mean that it will get progerssively harder after each completion?

 

In game quests will not only be a way for us to provide new players with direction, but to potentially assist their progression with rewards as well.  Between that and being able to select from a few weapons, early game should not only be easier to understand but also a lot more fun to participate in.

 

I don't like the Corpus and i don't like the Grineer, so is there a way for me and others like me to remain neutral while still being able to experience this new content or should i just surrender myself to the infested now?

 

We want to visit Mods and refine them at some point, and we have a lot of different ideas on where to go with that.  Looking at our existing Mods is just as important as making more Mods (or creating bandaid Mods), and tradeoff Mods do offer a greater variety on expanding various playstyles; but it’s important to remember that our goal with Mod cards is to make sure that builds can represent a wide variety of gameplay options for a wide range of game types.

 

If this is truly your goal and you can't refine the mods that we have yet, then can we atleast get more slots ( the words escapes me its the a, b, c options that we can switch between missions) so that we can have more diverse builds readily availabe?

 

 

While our Devstream’s always contains an element of speculation into the continued development of Warframe this we understand that this particular stream dove pretty far into core elements of the game that we’re not entirely ready to discuss our approach to.  Please keep in mind that when the time comes for us to prioritize any kind of changes to core game mechanics you Tenno will be the first to know.

 

As long as you stay true to your word that's all we ask.

[Momoynator]

Well, you don't need to bell curve mods or give them readjustments in bonus values. Simply give them varying traits and make duplicates with different traits. Instant variety and choice. (A short adaptation of notionphil's idea)

 

Good in theory, terrible in practice...

 

That many more mods? Think RNG lol... You'll hardly ever get the mod from the bigger pool of mods that you want and if you DO get the mod you want, then its a matter of if it's the right type of mod of that mod that you want.

 

I'm sure there's more to the idea Notionphile suggested that I'm missing since I've never read the post, and perhaps even some cohesive idea in your short statement. I was just saying what immediately struck me as flawed with that idea.

[Psychen]

I'll keep waiting until Liset Racing comes along ;).

[MortalSage]

Thanks for the info on the carrier Adam, part 2 definitely clears some stuff up. Glad to know that balance will be taking center stage when it comes to U14

[TDS0Spoderman]

I don't understand the Valkyr pic , but all the rest is cool 

[Lynxh]

Good in theory, terrible in practice...

 

That many more mods? Think RNG lol... You'll hardly ever get the mod from the bigger pool of mods that you want and if you DO get the mod you want, then its a matter of if it's the right type of mod of that mod that you want.

 

I'm sure there's more to the idea Notionphile suggested that I'm missing since I've never read the post, and perhaps even some cohesive idea in your short statement. I was just saying what immediately struck me as flawed with that idea.

 

Not so much as you might think. Just try to think of it not so much as adding more mods to one giant pool, but segmenting the pool itself. Planets, levels, gametypes, enemy types, enemy levels are some examples. Ofcourse, this all depends on whether or not DE does any of this. Simply adding more mods to our current system(most being from enemy drops) would be rather.....unfavorable. But there is still lots of space to "refine" mod drops in itself. Same goes for mods in of themselves.

[JackBeloved]

... people for some odd reason want to make warframe the same as any other MMO game out there (a skill based progression system).

 

I second this, love the mod system, and oppose any skill trees related to unlocking skills by level/progression.

[dashashou]

except your bell curve is   straight x-  line with a couple of  sky scrapers  that are  all r-10 mods . And if U think that players will  stand for  a tone down  to balanced stated  of those r-10 mods, It 's just a disregard of the  all the work of  players did to get those  and i have no doubt  that players  will leave if these butter fly wings are touched .  

 

the problem isn't the mods  / or weapon balance It's MOB SCALING with no hard caps to armor or health 

 

I find it so very unlikey that you People at DE even care  about weapon balance , Look at any of the weapons from update 7 , any gun ,  are they balanced /  are they useful ? No 

 

I't been a very long time sense i have even seen  an  Furis  ,kraken  ,acrid , bolto , burston , braton prime,  karak, hind sobek, hek boar , and soo many others  , that people will level and trash and and will never forma   . 

 

even melee 2.0  where all charge attack weapons might as well have been removed , and daggers attack  the same speed or slower than great swords !!!  ( dark dagger's .9 vs the Galatine's 1.0 )

 

the problem is YOUR mob  scaling , and the  100% status  mobs , where in most cases high level  mob = no place for light frames mostly due to bleed / poison . The mobs have no hard armor cap or damage to them either THIS IS A LONG TIME ISSUE !!!! 

 

as to mod that we use  atm there's only room for 2 skills  on a frame no matter which frame if u want maxim effectiveness .  

 

the weapons mods are in the same boat , where   the main difference between guns is at most 3 mods

 

Mod dilution is more of a problem than ever i have 500+ fracturing winds and 2500 wells of life ,  

 

But as Scott said he'll work on weapon balance if he has time in 14  which pretty much translates to the boltor prime getting nerfed , for the new guns to shine . 

 

as to frames balence it still press 4 to ninja / win  always been that way at the very beginning   still is that way now .  Sooo  

 

SO with more of a year seeing your de-facto priorities  there is no vairity of solutions  there's the one mod loadout  that works for this type of gun , or this type of frame . 

 

How will the future be different than the past ? 

[SilverBones]

Some of us remember what the old Mod tree system was like.

 

Personally, I am glad that's gone and we have more choice.

 

Nice to hear the things going on in the background! Thanks!

[bejuizb]

Some of us remember what the old Mod tree system was like.

 

Personally, I am glad that's gone and we have more choice.

 

Nice to hear the things going on in the background! Thanks!

Indeed. I joined during U8, so the system was removed. No other game gives me so much costumization choice.

[ValhaHazred]

That mod tree was a nightmare. The new way has problems sure (Serration and Split chamber, I'm looking at you!) but it is much better.

[RawGritz]

Some of us remember what the old Mod tree system was like.

 

Personally, I am glad that's gone and we have more choice.

 

Nice to hear the things going on in the background! Thanks!

Here here!

 

There is definitely more choice and room for variation with the current design Vs. the old mod tree--even beyond the obvious increase in mods we have now. You had a finite number paths you could take with the old system. There was no mod leveling, either.

 

I remember telling fellow Tenno GenMaster, they were going to introduce the ability to modify mods. He was baffled "How the H*#|| do you modify a mod? The mod is the modifier" Classic!

 

No don't want to go back.

[SilverBones]

Here here!

 

There is definitely more choice and room for variation with the current design Vs. the old mod tree--even beyond the obvious increase in mods we have now. You had a finite number paths you could take with the old system. There was no mod leveling, either.

 

I remember telling fellow Tenno GenMaster, they were going to introduce the ability to modify mods. He was baffled "How the H*#|| do you modify a mod? The mod is the modifier" Classic!

 

No don't want to go back.

 

Although Loki with +300% sprint speed was just... beautiful.

 

Some things were fun, but ultimately, the system was borked.

[RawGritz]

Although Loki with +300% sprint speed was just... beautiful.

 

Some things were fun, but ultimately, the system was borked.

oh that reminds me of near the same w/ the Cronus sword. That thing could be turned into a lawnmower. It was insane. I guess...when in doubt, ask an OG Tenno. 

[IIISTIXIII]

With respect to challenge/difficulty I think its great that you are trying out different things in the events (suspicious shipments/breeding grounds) - where it was evidently more focus towards enemy types, their damage output, environment, etc - as opposed to their damage resistance. 

 

My impression is that those tweaks were pretty well received overall, perhaps with the exception of a few slightly too toxic ospreys, and I hope you will continue in that direction - as it seems like the key to not only more fun and interesting challenge, but also more depth to the mod system. Or should I say the use of the mod system.

 

I think a lot of the discussion around the mod system (required mods, band aids, balance, depth, etc) actually is a discussion about challenge. The mod system is just that. It doesn’t care. It is intrinsically open with many possible combinations. The game however, mainly through its challenge “system” as it is, WILL and DO force a certain use of this system - and that is the reason for all of these discussions.

 

In this light, I think it would pay to revise the challenge system before the mod system, as more diverse challenge should mean more diverse mod usage. And when you speak of mission ratings, I hope that you will be able to define that rating with more than enemy sponginess :-)

[REDACTED]

"but that’s much further in the future"

 

Is there going to be a future when DE is owned by Perfect World?

[GStonez]

"but that’s much further in the future"

 

Is there going to be a future when DE is owned by Perfect World?

DE is too awesome to be owned 

[Ediconum]

Thanks for Posting DE_Adam

 

Korean Translated post is here

 

http://cafe.naver.com/warframekr/69862