immolator1001 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Even going by the conservative measure of the arrow being able to boost the grineer to 125Ns that would mean the arrow is flying at 5495 m/s using OP's mass of the arrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odadda Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Maybe it's just me but when I shoot a Grineer with a bow his body seems to fly faster than then speed of the hitting arrow. Just an hint, but enought for me to think that real physics belong to real word, not warframe :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)da-link-went-1 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 (edited) Even going by the conservative measure of the arrow being able to boost the grineer to 125Ns that would mean the arrow is flying at 5495 m/s using OP's mass of the arrow. So Paris is hitscan? Awesome!!!! Edit: I love mathing. and spelling. Edited July 16, 2014 by (PS4)da-link-went-1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tengu-musume Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Hitscan... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElHefe Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 (edited) Hmm ... so far I'd have to say is: Where's the beef? @ EunGiGhim ... have to give you credit for tackling ambitious subject BUT the OP states neither a general or a specific goal Are you trying to systematically analyze game mechanics or conducting an ad hoc survey of weapon ballistics? Without in-game coding, the former is a hopeless task. Example: Take something fundamental like DISTANCE - what are the actual dimensions of ANY object in the game? As far as the latter, even after getting an estimate of the base characteristics of a projectile - say the Paris "arrow" - wouldn't weapon Mods immediately render that calculation MEANINGLESS? As much as it pains me to say this, neither endeavor provides much in the way of a payoff - and certainly not for all the work that would go into even a semi-rigorous analysis @ immolator1001 ... honestly you lost me with the Paris Arrow - Grineer collision experiment If I understand your terms correctly, 50 m is the distance the ARROW travels and 2 s is the flight time Doesn't the speed (25 m/s) reflect the ARROW - the projectile - and not the target - the Grineer? As an aside, implicitly you are assuming that the collision between the arrow and the Grineer is inelastic - that is there is no energy dissipated by the collision itself - which applies only if the arrow simply bounces OFF the Grineer rather than piercing them All in all, maybe others brighter than myself can help out here ... EDIT: Correction 1 - Must make public admission of silly mistake of confusing the principle of conservation of MOMENTUM which immolator1001 CORRECTLY applied and the principle of conservation of energy EDIT: Correction 2 - The word "inelastic" should read "perfectly elastic". Once again, this is not relevant to immolator1001's calculation PS: Thanks to immolator1001 for pointing my error out in such a respectful manner Edited July 17, 2014 by ElHefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r110platinum Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Hmm I dunno. I wouldn't really talk about real physics in a game like this where a tiny little bolt from a Boltor or Bolto turns a Heavily Armored Grimmer into a 2 pound ragdoll that flies across the map. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McTaz Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 LOL, I LAUGHED MORE THAN I SHOULD OF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
immolator1001 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 @ immolator1001 ... honestly you lost me with the Paris Arrow - Grineer collision experiment If I understand your terms correctly, 50 m is the distance the ARROW travels and 2 s is the flight time Doesn't the speed (25 m/s) reflect the ARROW - the projectile - and not the target - the Grineer? As an aside, implicitly you are assuming that the collision between the arrow and the Grineer is inelastic - that is there is no energy dissipated by the collision itself - which applies only if the arrow simply bounces OFF the Grineer rather than piercing them All in all, maybe others brighter than myself can help out here ... Its conservation of momentum. 50m is the max distance and impaled enemy could travel and I estimated that would take 2 seconds 25m/s is the velocity of the impaled grineer. And we aren't doing energy its conservation of momentum where no matter what nothing is lost. Not energy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McTaz Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 btw this is very interesting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llyssa Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 There's too many unknowns to really learn anything. We don't know how big Tenno are. We don't know how dense arrows are. We know nothing. You can't guess F*M=A when you don't know M or F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade343 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 @ immolator1001 ... honestly you lost me with the Paris Arrow - Grineer collision experiment If I understand your terms correctly, 50 m is the distance the ARROW travels and 2 s is the flight time Doesn't the speed (25 m/s) reflect the ARROW - the projectile - and not the target - the Grineer? As an aside, implicitly you are assuming that the collision between the arrow and the Grineer is inelastic - that is there is no energy dissipated by the collision itself - which applies only if the arrow simply bounces OFF the Grineer rather than piercing them First off, that calculation assumes the collision is elastic (inelastic is where there is energy dissipated). Second, I think his calculations may be a bit off. Here is mine: p (Arrow) = mv The mass of an average arrow is around 20 or so grams (give or take ±20%). Assuming the arrow travels at constant speed (25 m/s), p (Arrow) = 25 m/s * 0.02 kg = 0.5 kg*m/s Arrow hits Grineer, who has a mass of 100kg Due to the Law of Conservation of Momentum, p (Arrow) = p (Arrow + Grineer) 0.5 kg*m/s = 100.02kg * v v = 0.005 m/s Change of momentum (For arrow): 0.5 kg*m/s - (0.005m/s * 0.02 kg) = 0.4999 kg*m/s Assuming time of the force of impact is 0.1s Then F = 4.999 kg*m/s^2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
immolator1001 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 (edited) First off, that calculation assumes the collision is elastic (inelastic is where there is energy dissipated). Second, I think his calculations may be a bit off. Here is mine: p (Arrow) = mv The mass of an average arrow is around 20 or so grams (give or take ±20%). Assuming the arrow travels at constant speed (25 m/s), p (Arrow) = 25 m/s * 0.02 kg = 0.5 kg*m/s Arrow hits Grineer, who has a mass of 100kg Due to the Law of Conservation of Momentum, p (Arrow) = p (Arrow + Grineer) 0.5 kg*m/s = 100.02kg * v v = 0.005 m/s Change of momentum (For arrow): 0.5 kg*m/s - (0.005m/s * 0.02 kg) = 0.4999 kg*m/s Assuming time of the force of impact is 0.1s Then F = 4.999 kg*m/s^2 I'm talking about when the air IMPALES A GRINEER TO A WALL. Like how it make 100 kg go flying? 5 newtons isn't gunna do that, people can punch that hard... I'm assuming that the grineer goes 50m at 25m/s once impaled by the air and is flying towards the wall. We're talking about the amount of force it takes to quickly accelerate a 100kg thing to 25m/s in a fraction of a second. My numbers are spot on. We can't assume the arrows speed since its really fast, but can estimate how long it would take an impaled enemy to fly accross the map (50 m max) and I guessed about 2 seconds. I didn't assume anything about collisions or energy because No Matter what momentum is conserved. Even a force of 100 newtons will only accelerate a grineer to 1 m/s. And the paris can make them go flying into a wall. Edited July 17, 2014 by immolator1001 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade343 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 I'm talking about when the air IMPALES A GRINEER TO A WALL. Like how it make 100 kg go flying? 5 newtons isn't gunna do that, people can punch that hard... What? In which point did the air come into play into your calculations? All I did was use your given values, and then from my knowledge of the mass of an average arrow, then calculated. In fact, I have not calculated the pressure of the tip of the arrow, which would mean the arrow can pierce flesh (and maybe armour) simply due to the large force compared to the surface area of the tip of the arrow. But it should not have flown a Grineer that far from my calculations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
immolator1001 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 (edited) What? In which point did the air come into play into your calculations? All I did was use your given values, and then from my knowledge of the mass of an average arrow, then calculated. In fact, I have not calculated the pressure of the tip of the arrow, which would mean the arrow can pierce flesh (and maybe armour) simply due to the large force compared to the surface area of the tip of the arrow. But it should not have flown a Grineer that far from my calculations. No. the velocity given (25m/s) is the velocity of the grineer after being impaled. You know when you shoot an enemy and they fly back and hit a wall? Since that tells us the max the paris is capable of. I don't give the velocity of the arrow since that would be too hard to estimate, while estimating the corpse flies at 25m/s probably isn't too far off. Edited July 17, 2014 by immolator1001 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade343 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 No. the velocity given (25m/s) is the velocity of the grineer after being impaled. You know when you shoot an enemy and they fly back and hit a wall? SInce that tells us the max the paris is capable of. I don't give the velocity of the arrow since that would be too hard to estimate. Video, waypoints, then record and shoot at waypoint. Do three trials and take the average velocity of the arrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
immolator1001 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 (edited) Video, waypoints, then record and shoot at waypoint. Do three trials and take the average velocity of the arrow. You know i'm talking about when you shoot and enemy and the enemy keeps going until they hit a wall right? So clearly the force would need to be well over 100 newtons to make a 100 kg grineer do that. I don't need the velocity of the arrow I can easily estimate the velocity of the corpse and use that to find its momentum. Infact 25m/s is probably slower than it actually moves meaning it would need more force. People who are estimating 5 newtons. The grineer probably weigh 100 kg. That's like someone pushed them. That's not enough to send them flying and be impaled to a wall. Edited July 17, 2014 by immolator1001 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toppien Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 http://youtu.be/gENVB6tjq_M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
immolator1001 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 (edited) http://youtu.be/gENVB6tjq_M%5Dhttp://youtu.be/gENVB6tjq_M%5B/url%5D'>http://youtu.be/gENVB6tjq_Mhttp://youtu.be/gENVB6tjq_M[/url I did and 5 newtons isn't going to send a grineer trooper flying and impaled to a wall. It's more like being hit by a truck.Edit: for 5 newtons to accelerate a 100kg mass to 25m/s it would would need to be applied for 8 minutes and 20 seconds. People finish missions in that time. Edited July 17, 2014 by immolator1001 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.ToastForPresident Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Lasers do not go at the speed of light, so this topic is irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
immolator1001 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Lasers do not go at the speed of light, so this topic is irrelevant. That's my point. If you try to do video game physics you just end up with huge numbers that don't make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZenroZephon Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Lasers do not go at the speed of light, so this topic is irrelevant. laser is light, so yes they do go the same speed as light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditsydoo Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 laser is light, so yes they do go the same speed as light. But we don't really have lasers. They seem closer to plasma n junk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loswaith Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Your talking more about balistics than physics in general. Its a very missleading title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoboDoge Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Your talking more about balistics than physics in general. Its a very missleading title. Ballistic is mechanic that is related to physics. Affected by gravitation, acceleration, starting kinetic energy ( blast in most cases ) etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loswaith Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 (edited) Ballistic is mechanic that is related to physics. Affected by gravitation, acceleration, starting kinetic energy ( blast in most cases ) etc. Also flight, behavior and effects of projectiles. Clearly what the discussion is actually about (ie. weapons), because you cant really discuss these aspects accurately without including their physics now can we. The OP discusses nothing about frames, powers, ragdolling and many other aspects that relate to physics as well. Edited July 17, 2014 by Loswaith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now