MeduSalem Posted July 30, 2014 Author Share Posted July 30, 2014 (edited) Changed the thread-title a little bit. Edited July 30, 2014 by MeduSalem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeduSalem Posted July 31, 2014 Author Share Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) *bump* Edited July 31, 2014 by MeduSalem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eraze93 Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 (edited) lol all that i can see is KUBROW 2.0 IS ON DEMAND NOW. Edited August 1, 2014 by eraze93 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryouhi Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 lol all that i can see is KUBROW 2.0 IS ON DEMAND NOW. I won't waste any nerves, time or plat on this RNG-based Breeding. So yeah, until they makes some drastic changes i'll just stay with my Sahasa and Raksa ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eraze93 Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 I won't waste any nerves, time or plat on this RNG-based Breeding. So yeah, until they makes some drastic changes i'll just stay with my Sahasa and Raksa ;) lol same! i have sahasa and now i'll wait 2 days to get my new kubrow, Raksa. hahahah. amazing support these 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeduSalem Posted August 2, 2014 Author Share Posted August 2, 2014 (edited) lol all that i can see is KUBROW 2.0 IS ON DEMAND NOW. Yupp pretty much... I think some parts of the current system weren't thought through to well by DE... at least not for Quality of Life on longterm. The massive amount of threads and feedback concerning Kubrows shows it pretty well. My thread isn't about all the upkeep, switching times and whatnot... Even they are clearly problems on their own as well... but my thread is more about that we have to make too many excess Kubrows in the first place, creating the problem that people have a high demand to get rid of all their ugly Kubrows. The major problem is that DE started off too high with monetarizing the Kubrows by adding in a massive layer of RNG and/or Platinum-wall for creating Kubrows you like to keep. Kubrows are different from grinding for new Prime Parts for example where all you need to do is to have patience until the prime part drops that you want. It doesn't require you to invest any resources and platinum, it only requires you invest time. And trading parts for Platinum is paying for convenience. But with Kubrows it is pretty much IMPOSSIBLE to do anything reliable without Platinum and massive amounts of resources. You get only 2 stasis slots, which makes it impossible to breed on your own because the chances that you get a nice Kubrow in 2 turns are... well... just say not good. I have more than a dozen Kubrows now and only one is somewhat tolerable in my opinion. So you eventually need more Kubrows to get more variety and maybe some traits that you like and with them you can start breeding on your own... So you either have to invest Platinum in dozens of Stasis slots to breed enough random eggs until you get some Kubrows with desired type/pattern/colors/build/height and then start crossbreeding... That or you have to invest Platinum in ridiculously overprized Imprints at the trade channel that don't gurantee anything as well. And with both methods you end up with even more excess Kubrows that you can't get humanly rid off other than let them die on purpose, which most of us don't think is a good longterm solution so we have to get even more Stasis slots to continue experiments... a circle that never ends. Even if we could release the Kubrows to the wild already, which would be much appreciated... this would only be a short-term bandaid that doesn't really fix the root of the problem of creating too many Kubrows you can't bond with in the first place. So take your poison. It is impossible to do anything reliable without Plat. That is sort of pay to win because you can't win against this system with just investing more time, somewhere down the road you have to invest Platinum to advance. And even that doesn't gurantee you get the result you want... and that's why I call that mechanic a Platinum sink. Edited August 2, 2014 by MeduSalem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyv001 Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 I won't waste any nerves, time or plat on this RNG-based Breeding. So yeah, until they makes some drastic changes i'll just stay with my Sahasa and Raksa ;) I'm sadly on the same boat. I have two sunikas at the moment, and until a solid customization and disposal system is implemented, I'm going to stick with my very first sunika. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mak_Gohae Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 You may be right about the stripes being second to the Lotus pattern, but that is also because we only have 4 basic patterns to choose from currently. If there would be more variety then people would be more differing/disperse from each other, creating a market for nearly everything. No, there are at least double the amount. I think i got more than 4 pattern in the prints that i have. Has anyone cataloged the different patterns? Still I think not everyone favors all the rare stuff. If people would be all like that we would only see people running around with rare event weapons like Snipetrons Vandals, specific Arcane Helmets and Proto-Armor and whatnot. But this is not the case because people all have their unique preferences which will on longterm override any "rarity" most of the time just because people dislike playing with an item that they feel doesn't look nice to them. Yes, there might be people who don't care about looks and rather take stuff because they do nice DPS... but breeding Kubrows isn't something for them anyways. Bad example using limited time availability weapons. Not everyone had the ability to obtain those weapons which is why not everyone is running around with them But guess what? They are EXTREMELY valuable and are in high demand. And you cant really tell which helmets are arcane or not. The better example would be prime frames. Those are things EVERYONE is currently trying to acquire and when they do they usually run instead of the standard version. Also another problem concerning the patterns and other traits is that once DE starts expanding on the possible features Kubrows can develop it will be increasingly harder to get better results out of the box for your Kubrows because people will eventually have to breed new Kubrows to make those new features appear which will randomly have all existing features thrown into the mix thanks to RNG. Isolating some traits you like will be nearly impossible the more feature factors play into the current breeding system. That's the point of the system. If you can get what you want when you wanted the system would be left unused by most people. The only people that would put continued use are sellers because that's what they like doing, but if you could get what you wanted you would ASAP then you would not touch it anymore. Right now im about to breed for a saha which is my last breed to acquire and if had the ability to get the body type i wanted from the start i would be done with the system right after the saha because 4 different breeds should cover enough different body types that i want. I would probably try to a rare color once in a while if i needed some extra plat but i think i would get it faster from mods and bps that i would be getting exp for and money for which is way better. It's becoming gambling on Diablo III level, which I can only see with disgust because I played that one long enough to know that it is a waste of time to even try getting items you want because you'll NEVER get them or at least not those variants you'd like to see. I dont play D3 but i played D1 and 2 and the point of continued playing was to get drops to see if you can get cooler weapons. That's, like, the thing with the game, just keep playing and try to get better weapons. I dont know, back in those days that was enough to keep you busy for a while. Simpler times? A way to isolate traits you like will be more and more important the more possible traits there are because otherwise you will find it extremely difficult if not impossible to crossbreed until you get the result you want. Eventually you would have to waste even more Plat on Imprints to gamble around... with the amount of Plat increasing exponentially thanks to the possible combinations that could occour. I can only imagine how ugly clustered that system will become and how rare "good" outcomes would become. If we could mutate our existing Kubrows, create custom ones in a genetic forge using "trait"-parts, or at least use "randomly" incubated Kubrows as a way to use their genetic material for improving other Kubrows and/or trading those "trait"-parts the random Kubrows provide in a manner of "adding fresh blood to the breeding system" and therefore create a market for even the most unwanted Kubrows then creating those excess Kubrows would at least make sense. If people could change existing Kubrows or use their excess Kubrows for something useful people wouldn't have to make 10 times the Kubrows they actually need and therefore decrease the need of having a way to "release" all the Kubrows you don't like to the wild in the first place. The traits that cannot be changed after completion should have a better process that's ...easier to determine. Right now i dont care for the colors of any of my Kubs because i know that we will have the option to change them eventually. What i am more worried about is body type. Currently it looks that outside of randomly breeding a kub you cannot breed for short height because that might have been a recessive gene that was taken out. I think that is more annoying currently than anything else. But if there was an option post completion that let me change the body type... wouldn't care for that either. Even if its random. 10p may have been a lot for color/pattern if you were going nuts wanting a color NAOH but dropping 10p every couple days until you got what you wanted isnt actually that bad. Having several steps may be annoying but it keeps feeding the system, if it was just a straight line toward what you want it's really an easy race that you are not going to run that many times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryouhi Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 -snip- And with both methods you end up with even more excess Kubrows that you can't get humanly rid off other than let them die on purpose, which most of us don't think is a good longterm solution so we have to get even more Stasis slots to continue experiments... a circle that never ends. Even if we could release the Kubrows to the wild already, which would be much appreciated... this would only be a short-term bandaid that doesn't really fix the root of the problem of creating too many Kubrows you can't bond with in the first place. Well, concerning the upkeep.. at least they halved the DNA detoriation speed which is great. They basically halved the cost now, 100k will have you covered for a little less than a month. Though, in terms of not being able to release kubrows.. You will now also have to wait twice as long to get rid of them ;x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSpite Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 How about no. Does no work for you? Did your free to play game introduce a new game element that you don't like? Dear me, you then need to type a 5 page essay as to what exactly is wrong with it, and how to fix it of course. Nevermind the fact that you are not paying a monthly fee to support ANY of the work, or that it would take longer to code then the entire U14 update would have taken. Kubrows are working as intended. They don't need changing simply because you have some issue with the fact that "you can't get the exact color or fur pattern you want". Do you even have any idea how idiotic that sounds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryouhi Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 By the way, the last Kubrow i bred - my sahasa - he's got stripes, a pattern that i rather like. The problem is: the pattern is barely visible. The fur colour is something light brown/greyish and the pattern also light grey Here's a picture: http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/579029336531986417/E7AC84BF655F8CD13B04674D5B6BC37F11849265 you can clearly see the grey on his belly, but the stripes are barely even visible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaugahn Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 How about no. Does no work for you? Bad feedback is bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSpite Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Bad feedback is bad. My feedback is awesome. When the original idea is stupid on such a monstrous level - as it basically said "scrap the entire system, I have a better one" - then the type of feedback I gave is the only one possible. The current Kubrow system was DESIGNED over a period of months. He sits down for what, a few hours, and without ANY knowledge of why DE would have implemented the current system, based on making more money for game, based on existing code, based on time scheduled, basically typed: "I don't want to have to breed 100 Kubrows for an exact color, hence the system is broken, hence it needs a total redesign" And MY Feedback is bad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeduSalem Posted August 2, 2014 Author Share Posted August 2, 2014 How about no. Does no work for you? How about no to your no so you can have some noes while you're no'ing. Does no to your no work for you? Did your free to play game introduce a new game element that you don't like? Dear me, you then need to type a 5 page essay as to what exactly is wrong with it, and how to fix it of course. Nevermind the fact that you are not paying a monthly fee to support ANY of the work, or that it would take longer to code then the entire U14 update would have taken. You know nothing Jon Snow. I'm not only playing the game because it's free to play, otherwise I wouldn't be a Grand Master. Not everyone joins the game to be a freeloader. I may not always like all the changes/additions DE does to Warframe but still I appreciate their hard work. That said even if I appreciate their work I will still offer my opinion, as good or as bad as it might be sometimes. Kubrows are working as intended. They don't need changing simply because you have some issue with the fact that "you can't get the exact color or fur pattern you want". Do you even have any idea how idiotic that sounds? They may work as intended, if the intention is to p*ss off many players who looked forward to the customization part. Don't know how much you are reading the feedback section or any other section but people feel pretty bad about the situation currently because the RNG often gives them only (ugly) Kubrows they can't relate to/bond with and there's no reliable way to change that other than creating more and more Kubrows and wasting tons of resources and Plat for something they'll throw out the airlock anyways. Hell they even removed the scrambler because it was too random and people felt like this is an unreliable Platinum sink and should be improved on. So you should realize by now that deterministic Kubrow customization (Patterns, Color, Build, ...) is something people really looked forward too and are to some degree dissapointed on the way it turned out. Also I haven't read that last sentence. My feedback is awesome. Credibility lost right there. Even if your "feedback" would be "awesome", which it isn't, you shouldn't have to state how "awesome" it is. When the original idea is stupid on such a monstrous level - as it basically said "scrap the entire system, I have a better one" - then the type of feedback I gave is the only one possible. So basically I have never stated anywhere that my proposal/suggestion is the best among the dozen other proposals and feedback found here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/278994-kubrow-feedback-megathread-with-poll/ They are all good proposals - even they are often in favor of the player - and something that DE may or may not draw some ideas from. Will you tell them all that they are stupid? Well if so then go ahead and complete your holy crusade. I don't think many people will follow your path. The current Kubrow system was DESIGNED over a period of months. He sits down for what, a few hours, and without ANY knowledge of why DE would have implemented the current system, based on making more money for game, based on existing code, based on time scheduled, basically typed: "I don't want to have to breed 100 Kubrows for an exact color, hence the system is broken, hence it needs a total redesign" And MY Feedback is bad? It may be designed over a couple of months but the major outcry of the community on some of the Kubrow aspects (as well as some other topics) should give you some hints that it might not have been "designed" too well no matter how much time went to it. That said I still appreciate that they have made the first steps to integrate a new major feature to the game. If all people were to defend everything DE does then we would probably still be playing Update 4 or 5 or something and not much changed ever since and the game may or may not have become something that's no fun for most players. If all people would be so negative about feedback and changes like you then we would probably still be in the medieval times sitting down a river bank playing with rocks. Good day, Sir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyriann Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 I, personally will breed my first kubrow and pray that it will be at least close to what I hope. If it is perfect, if it is not then I'll just complete the quest and freeze it until it becomes available to customize it. That's basically where I am about this... This idea is exactly what I thought the system would be therefore you have all my support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun10656 Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 i really don't support the idea of a kubrow killer need something more humane and less gruesome like sending the kubrows to the lotus so she can put them to work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyriann Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 I came up with something. You said that the trait cards are basically fonctionning like mods for fusing them but instead of stregthening one mod it would result in an hybrid, example : tall+small=medium. But it means that the two cards used to create the hybrids are consumed right ? Then, for people who like experimenting but don't want to lose there original cards maybe a system of "locks" could be interesting, that way you can decide that a specific card can't be altered in any possible way, only used to implement datas on kubrow ( ´cause I understood that by moding a genetic strain you don't consume the card). With this system it permits to literraly possess a complete library of the genetic traits of kubrows even the hybrid type genes but, if you don't have copies you cannot create new traits unless you decide to use some of your last cards. I'm not sure to be perfectly clear, and I'll be glad to explain things if there are problems so feel free to ask. Anyway that's only my idea and it is not necesseraly relevent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeduSalem Posted August 5, 2014 Author Share Posted August 5, 2014 (edited) No, there are at least double the amount. I think i got more than 4 pattern in the prints that i have. Has anyone cataloged the different patterns? Are there? Well I had a look at Wikia back then and it only stated 4 patterns. (None, Patches, Stripes and Lotus Symbol) ^^ Seems like you are right... there seem to be at at least 6 (+1 if you count none as pattern as well) listed on Wikia now: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Kubrow Bad example using limited time availability weapons. Not everyone had the ability to obtain those weapons which is why not everyone is running around with them But guess what? They are EXTREMELY valuable and are in high demand. And you cant really tell which helmets are arcane or not. The better example would be prime frames. Those are things EVERYONE is currently trying to acquire and when they do they usually run instead of the standard version. You may be right that it's not the best example, still I don't see many veteran people using those items and I'm pretty sure most of them played the Events for those weapons because at least I did so. I guess it's because people either have their preferences or because the stats of those event weapons just suck compared to most other weapons. That's the point of the system. If you can get what you want when you wanted the system would be left unused by most people. The only people that would put continued use are sellers because that's what they like doing, but if you could get what you wanted you would ASAP then you would not touch it anymore. Right now im about to breed for a saha which is my last breed to acquire and if had the ability to get the body type i wanted from the start i would be done with the system right after the saha because 4 different breeds should cover enough different body types that i want. I would probably try to a rare color once in a while if i needed some extra plat but i think i would get it faster from mods and bps that i would be getting exp for and money for which is way better. If people can't get what they want the system will be left unused by even more people over time because they get sick of such a system that's designed in a major disadvantage to the player. Only a bunch of dedicated Veterans not caring about how much RNG is involved in any particular game mechanic will keep going until the end of days of Warframe. Most others will quit using such a feature because it's senseless pursuing a goal you can't reach in any foreseeable timespan. It's not like playing a Void mission where there are 5 possible rewards and that there's eventually an end to it once you drop the part you want. The point of my system was that people could eventually get what they want but on the way of doing so the isolated traits are being consumed. Since they can't extract those traits from genetically modified/designed Kubrows they couldn't start stockpiling those traits. If they for example would want their Kubrow to look different at some point to match their Warframe color or just because they are sick of looking at the same bland color/pattern for months they would have to start breeding again or have to trade again. And where there's demand there's a market. So some people would become sellers, yes, but that's the same strategy as Prime Parts. Once you have your Prime Warframe/Weapon finished there would be literally no sense on going to the Void again, but people still do it because either it's fun doing it or because they are selling the parts to other people who are sick of farming there. I dont play D3 but i played D1 and 2 and the point of continued playing was to get drops to see if you can get cooler weapons. That's, like, the thing with the game, just keep playing and try to get better weapons. I dont know, back in those days that was enough to keep you busy for a while. Simpler times? I never played D1/2, but I perfectly know how D3 worked with that "continous playing"-scheme. It worked as long as you don't hit a certain point of DPS output, after which it's near to impossible to get any better items. It's like waiting for the stars to align or something. And when hitting this point of "no advancement" you are still far away from getting all the Set/Legendary items you might want. The problem with such old-fashioned drop systems like being used in D3 is that you have a ridiculous amount of crap items and they are all in the same weighted droptable as the good ones with no specific enemies dropping a specific item. The droprates for a legendary item was like somewhat 0,3% on the highest difficulty setting with maximum magic-find on D3. That's not playable for most people so your chances are even worse normally and by worse I mean magnitudes of worse. And even if you got a legendary item you got trolled by the ridiculous stat-roll mechanic on top of the already randomly droping items that always seemed to roll the worst possible stats that feel like a slap in the face. So you saw the legendary item you wanted but you wished you had never dropped it because it's worse than the average yellow item. That's just a sadistic loot mechanic and you've to be a masochist to keep on going. I've invested over 500 hours in the game and never saw an item that's worth anything. The game was just a waste of friggin time and even most of my Blizzard-fanboy friends said it's inferior to it's predecessors. Even the "new" Loot 2.0 and smart-drop system introduced for Reaper of Souls is the biggest scam and lie ever. I won't go too deep into that but just let me say that thanks to tiered-stat-variants of items you basically get the same sh*t as before and this time there's no auction house to get around it. It's just typical Blizzard marketing bullcrap trying to lure some people back into the game but most of them realized soon enough that nothing has changed. At which point you feel like being mocked by Blizzard and the game because you paid 60+40 bucks or something and you pretty much never get to experience all of it's content because you'd have to play until the next millenium. Honestly I hate such games with item systems that have random stats on top of already random drop chances. I just hate them. They make me miss the oldschool days of Super Metroid or Castlevania: Symphony of the Night. Those were great games that also had a vast array of items and upgrades and did not rely on heavily RNG'ing their dropchance and stats just to virtually prolong the gameplay to the point where you give up before reaching an satisfying end. I'd rather play those old spritegraphics games 50 times over than investing more time in Diablo 3 and alike. That's why I came to Warframe because I've had it with games on the magnitude of D3. But seems like DE wants to take exactly that route since a few updates ago... well if so then I'll have to look for another game pretty soon because that's not what I originally signed up for in march or february 2013. Back then I praised Warframe to my friends for not having random stats on items and the Kubrows are literally a break-up in the line for me. The traits that cannot be changed after completion should have a better process that's ...easier to determine. Right now i dont care for the colors of any of my Kubs because i know that we will have the option to change them eventually. What i am more worried about is body type. Currently it looks that outside of randomly breeding a kub you cannot breed for short height because that might have been a recessive gene that was taken out. I think that is more annoying currently than anything else. But if there was an option post completion that let me change the body type... wouldn't care for that either. Even if its random. 10p may have been a lot for color/pattern if you were going nuts wanting a color NAOH but dropping 10p every couple days until you got what you wanted isnt actually that bad. Having several steps may be annoying but it keeps feeding the system, if it was just a straight line toward what you want it's really an easy race that you are not going to run that many times. It's up to DE anyways on how they want to implement a way to better determine the outcome. My proposal is just an idea that's not like "Make it like the colorpalettes!" rather than adopting some ideas of the current breeding. I know DE wants to have something more sophisticated for Kubrows... So basically yes, I've only seen the "small" Kubrow once yet in a mission... It's as small as a Cat or something... It seems to be extremely rare. My system would allow to have that feature if you'd isolate it from the traits of a random incubated Kubrow. Normal Kubrows would be made up of both traits... Short height & tall height. But that's only a personal recommendation and I don't think DE will implement anything the way I have proposed it. Not even anywhere near it. So I will eventually just wait and look what we get now. ^^ I came up with something. You said that the trait cards are basically fonctionning like mods for fusing them but instead of stregthening one mod it would result in an hybrid, example : tall+small=medium. But it means that the two cards used to create the hybrids are consumed right ? Then, for people who like experimenting but don't want to lose there original cards maybe a system of "locks" could be interesting, that way you can decide that a specific card can't be altered in any possible way, only used to implement datas on kubrow ( ´cause I understood that by moding a genetic strain you don't consume the card). With this system it permits to literraly possess a complete library of the genetic traits of kubrows even the hybrid type genes but, if you don't have copies you cannot create new traits unless you decide to use some of your last cards. I'm not sure to be perfectly clear, and I'll be glad to explain things if there are problems so feel free to ask. Anyway that's only my idea and it is not necesseraly relevent. Basically I had imagined it to work like that: Imagine you want to incubate a random new egg. Then you have a blank template with rows of specific traits. For example: Temperament (Race): Gender: Build: Height: Fur Pattern: Fur Color 1: Fur Color 2: ... (and so on) and in each row you'd have 2-4 slots or something (depending on how complex a trait can be for example Gender doesn't need to be as complex as fur color, but there would ALWAYS be a minimum of 2 cards required) where you can put in fitting trait cards. And once you put in a trait card the possible "result" will be shown in a preview window... and as you enter more trait cards the "result"-preview gradually changes to adopt all the trait cards you picked. The extact position of a trait card in a row could also determine some variants... which would be especially needed for fur-colors... to determine intermediate colors or something. So you can fiddle around and see what happens similar to the way when experimenting with Combined Elements @ Mods. Eventually once you've filled up all slots with at least some basic cards you'd have to hit the apply button and that consumes all the trait cards in the process and incubates the Kubrow. You may or may not fill up all traits with cards but then those traits are partially left open for RNG. Picking no cards at all means fully random incubating. The time it takes to incubate the Kubrow would then depend on how complex the setup is you want to incubate/mutate. The more trait cards you throw into the blender the longer it takes to forge that DNA string and to incubate the egg. So you may have to wait 2 days for a randomly incubated egg... but if you'd throw in something like the Lotus symbol you've to wait a week or whatever. ^^ That's basically how I imagined it. The same goes for modifying an existing Kubrow but instead you'd probably pick only some specific traits you want to change/override rather than all. But you could change everything on an existing Kubrow as well if you wanted to. But the basic fact would be... Trait Cards are consumed in the process and that's why you'd have a rough preview on what happens so to not waste them. Also if you pick to change an existing Kubrow or when you "design" a new Kubrow using trait cards then all the traits you altered become destabilized, meaning that once the "designed" Kubrow is matured or the existing Kubrow is finished mutating then you can't extract any of those changed traits anymore. The Kubrow becomes a "receiver" instead of a "provider". Otherwise the market would be overflowed with trait cards because when you incubate your Kubrow using a specific trait you bought on the trade-channel you could start selling that trait yourself and therbey become a direct concurrence for your former seller, which would eventually end up in dumping all the prices for traits to the cellar, which is not what we want to go for. With consuming trait cards and preventing "changed traits" to be extracted there's a viable way extracted traits are removed from the market and the market doesn't get oversaturated and would present a steadily demand for some stuff. Extraction of specific traits would work exactly the other way around. So you'd have to pick a trait you want to isolate and then there's the possibility that some traits are rather complex (made up of 2-4 trait cards) and the more complex it gets the longer it takes to extract all it's traitcards or something. With really ridiculous long cooldown times for bullcrap like Lotus symbols or Colors made up by 4 traits and whatnot. The amount of trait-cards extracted would eventually have to deterimine how often you can extract traits from "provider" Kubrows so to not overflood the market again. When thinking about that... DE might have found a good limitation of 2 extracts per Kubrow already... That or only 2 extracts every month/week or so.. Edited August 5, 2014 by MeduSalem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rorkyr Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Are there? Well I had a look at Wikia back then and it only stated 4 patterns. (None, Patches, Stripes and Lotus Symbol) ^^ Seems like you are right... there seem to be at at least 6 listed on Wikia now: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Kubrow You may be right that it's not the best example, still I don't see many veteran people using those items and I'm pretty sure most of them played the Events for those weapons because at least I did so. I guess it's because people either have their preferences or because the stats of those event weapons just suck compared to most other weapons. If people can't get what they want the system will be left unused by even more people over time because they get sick of such a system that's designed in a major disadvantage to the player. Only a bunch of dedicated Veterans not caring about how much RNG is involved in any particular game mechanic will keep going until the end of days of Warframe. Most others will quit using such a feature because it's senseless pursuing a goal you can't reach in any foreseeable timespan. It's not like playing a Void mission where there are 5 possible rewards and that there's eventually an end to it once you drop the part you want. The point of my system was that people could eventually get what they want but on the way of doing so the isolated traits are being consumed. Since they can't extract those traits from genetically modified/designed Kubrows they couldn't start stockpiling those traits. If they for example would want their Kubrow to look different at some point to match their Warframe color or just because they are sick of looking at the same bland color/pattern for months they would have to start breeding again or have to trade again. And where there's demand there's a market. So some people would become sellers, yes, but that's the same strategy as Prime Parts. Once you have your Prime Warframe/Weapon finished there would be literally no sense on going to the Void again, but people still do it because either it's fun doing it or because they are selling the parts to other people who are sick of farming there. I never played D1/2, but I perfectly know how D3 worked with that "continous playing"-scheme. It worked as long as you don't hit a certain point of DPS output, after which it's near to impossible to get any better items. It's like waiting for the stars to align or something. And when hitting this point of "no advancement" you are still far away from getting all the Set/Legendary items you might want. The problem with such old-fashioned drop systems like being used in D3 is that you have a ridiculous amount of crap items and they are all in the same weighted droptable as the good ones with no specific enemies dropping a specific item. The droprates for a legendary item was like somewhat 0,3% on the highest difficulty setting with maximum magic-find on D3. That's not playable for most people so your chances are even worse normally and by worse I mean magnitudes of worse. And even if you got a legendary item you got trolled by the ridiculous stat-roll mechanic on top of the already randomly droping items that always seemed to roll the worst possible stats that feel like a slap in the face. So you saw the legendary item you wanted but you wished you had never dropped it because it's worse than the average yellow item. That's just a sadistic loot mechanic and you've to be a masochist to keep on going. I've invested over 500 hours in the game and never saw an item that's worth anything. The game was just a waste of friggin time and even most of my Blizzard-fanboy friends said it's inferior to it's predecessors. Even the "new" Loot 2.0 and smart-drop system introduced for Reaper of Souls is the biggest scam and lie ever. I won't go too deep into that but just let me say that thanks to tiered-stat-variants of items you basically get the same sh*t as before and this time there's no auction house to get around it. It's just typical Blizzard marketing bullcrap trying to lure some people back into the game but most of them realized soon enough that nothing has changed. At which point you feel like being mocked by Blizzard and the game because you paid 60+40 bucks or something and you pretty much never get to experience all of it's content because you'd have to play until the next millenium. Honestly I hate such games with item systems that have random stats on top of already random drop chances. I just hate them. They make me miss the oldschool days of Super Metroid or Castlevania: Symphony of the Night. Those were great games that also had a vast array of items and upgrades and did not rely on heavily RNG'ing their dropchance and stats just to virtually prolong the gameplay to the point where you give up before reaching an satisfying end. I'd rather play those old spritegraphics games 50 times over than investing more time in Diablo 3 and alike. That's why I came to Warframe because I've had it with games on the magnitude of D3. But seems like DE wants to take exactly that route since a few updates ago... well if so then I'll have to look for another game pretty soon because that's not what I originally signed up for in march or february 2013. Back then I praised Warframe to my friends for not having random stats on items and the Kubrows are literally a break-up in the line for me. It's up to DE anyways on how they want to implement a way to better determine the outcome. My proposal is just an idea that's not like "Make it like the colorpalettes!" rather than adopting some ideas of the current breeding. I know DE wants to have something more sophisticated for Kubrows... So basically yes, I've only seen the "small" Kubrow once yet in a mission... It's as small as a Cat or something... It seems to be extremely rare. My system would allow to have that feature if you'd isolate it from the traits of a random incubated Kubrow. Normal Kubrows would be made up of both traits... Short height & tall height. But that's only a personal recommendation and I don't think DE will implement anything the way I have proposed it. Not even anywhere near it. So I will eventually just wait and look what we get now. ^^ Basically I had imagined it to work like that: Imagine you want to incubate a random new egg. Then you have a blank template with rows of specific traits. For example: Temperament (Race): Gender: Build: Height: Fur Pattern: Fur Color 1: Fur Color 2: ... (and so on) and in each row you'd have 2-4 slots or something (depending on how complex a trait can be for example Gender doesn't need to be as complex as fur color, but there would ALWAYS be a minimum of 2 cards required) where you can put in fitting trait cards. And once you put in a trait card the possible "result" will be shown in a preview window... and as you enter more trait cards the "result"-preview gradually changes to adopt all the trait cards you picked. The extact position of a trait card in a row could also determine some variants... which would be especially needed for fur-colors... to determine intermediate colors or something. So you can fiddle around and see what happens similar to the way when experimenting with Combined Elements @ Mods. Eventually once you've filled up all slots with at least some basic cards you'd have to hit the apply button and that consumes all the trait cards in the process and incubates the Kubrow. You may or may not fill up all traits with cards but then those traits are partially left open for RNG. Picking no cards at all means fully random incubating. The time it takes to incubate the Kubrow would then depend on how complex the setup is you want to incubate/mutate. The more trait cards you throw into the blender the longer it takes to forge that DNA string and to incubate the egg. So you may have to wait 2 days for a randomly incubated egg... but if you'd throw in something like the Lotus symbol you've to wait a week or whatever. ^^ That's basically how I imagined it. The same goes for modifying an existing Kubrow but instead you'd probably pick only some specific traits you want to change/override rather than all. But you could change everything on an existing Kubrow as well if you wanted to. But the basic fact would be... Trait Cards are consumed in the process and that's why you'd have a rough preview on what happens so to not waste them. Also if you pick to change an existing Kubrow or when you "design" a new Kubrow using trait cards then all the traits you altered become destabilized, meaning that once the "designed" Kubrow is matured or the existing Kubrow is finished mutating then you can't extract any of those changed traits anymore. The Kubrow becomes a "receiver" instead of a "provider". Otherwise the market would be overflowed with trait cards because when you incubate your Kubrow using a specific trait you bought on the trade-channel you could start selling that trait yourself and therbey become a direct concurrence for your former seller, which would eventually end up in dumping all the prices for traits to the cellar, which is not what we want to go for. With consuming trait cards and preventing "changed traits" to be extracted there's a viable way extracted traits are removed from the market and the market doesn't get oversaturated and would present a steadily demand for some stuff. Extraction of specific traits would work exactly the other way around. So you'd have to pick a trait you want to isolate and then there's the possibility that some traits are rather complex (made up of 2-4 trait cards) and the more complex it gets the longer it takes to extract all it's traitcards or something. With really ridiculous long cooldown times for bullcrap like Lotus symbols or Colors made up by 4 traits and whatnot. The amount of trait-cards extracted would eventually have to deterimine how often you can extract traits from "provider" Kubrows so to not overflood the market again. When thinking about that... DE might have found a good limitation of 2 extracts per Kubrow already... That or only 2 extracts every month/week or so.. +40 ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyriann Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Are there? Well I had a look at Wikia back then and it only stated 4 patterns. (None, Patches, Stripes and Lotus Symbol) ^^ Seems like you are right... there seem to be at at least 6 listed on Wikia now: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Kubrow You may be right that it's not the best example, still I don't see many veteran people using those items and I'm pretty sure most of them played the Events for those weapons because at least I did so. I guess it's because people either have their preferences or because the stats of those event weapons just suck compared to most other weapons. If people can't get what they want the system will be left unused by even more people over time because they get sick of such a system that's designed in a major disadvantage to the player. Only a bunch of dedicated Veterans not caring about how much RNG is involved in any particular game mechanic will keep going until the end of days of Warframe. Most others will quit using such a feature because it's senseless pursuing a goal you can't reach in any foreseeable timespan. It's not like playing a Void mission where there are 5 possible rewards and that there's eventually an end to it once you drop the part you want. The point of my system was that people could eventually get what they want but on the way of doing so the isolated traits are being consumed. Since they can't extract those traits from genetically modified/designed Kubrows they couldn't start stockpiling those traits. If they for example would want their Kubrow to look different at some point to match their Warframe color or just because they are sick of looking at the same bland color/pattern for months they would have to start breeding again or have to trade again. And where there's demand there's a market. So some people would become sellers, yes, but that's the same strategy as Prime Parts. Once you have your Prime Warframe/Weapon finished there would be literally no sense on going to the Void again, but people still do it because either it's fun doing it or because they are selling the parts to other people who are sick of farming there. I never played D1/2, but I perfectly know how D3 worked with that "continous playing"-scheme. It worked as long as you don't hit a certain point of DPS output, after which it's near to impossible to get any better items. It's like waiting for the stars to align or something. And when hitting this point of "no advancement" you are still far away from getting all the Set/Legendary items you might want. The problem with such old-fashioned drop systems like being used in D3 is that you have a ridiculous amount of crap items and they are all in the same weighted droptable as the good ones with no specific enemies dropping a specific item. The droprates for a legendary item was like somewhat 0,3% on the highest difficulty setting with maximum magic-find on D3. That's not playable for most people so your chances are even worse normally and by worse I mean magnitudes of worse. And even if you got a legendary item you got trolled by the ridiculous stat-roll mechanic on top of the already randomly droping items that always seemed to roll the worst possible stats that feel like a slap in the face. So you saw the legendary item you wanted but you wished you had never dropped it because it's worse than the average yellow item. That's just a sadistic loot mechanic and you've to be a masochist to keep on going. I've invested over 500 hours in the game and never saw an item that's worth anything. The game was just a waste of friggin time and even most of my Blizzard-fanboy friends said it's inferior to it's predecessors. Even the "new" Loot 2.0 and smart-drop system introduced for Reaper of Souls is the biggest scam and lie ever. I won't go too deep into that but just let me say that thanks to tiered-stat-variants of items you basically get the same sh*t as before and this time there's no auction house to get around it. It's just typical Blizzard marketing bullcrap trying to lure some people back into the game but most of them realized soon enough that nothing has changed. At which point you feel like being mocked by Blizzard and the game because you paid 60+40 bucks or something and you pretty much never get to experience all of it's content because you'd have to play until the next millenium. Honestly I hate such games with item systems that have random stats on top of already random drop chances. I just hate them. They make me miss the oldschool days of Super Metroid or Castlevania: Symphony of the Night. Those were great games that also had a vast array of items and upgrades and did not rely on heavily RNG'ing their dropchance and stats just to virtually prolong the gameplay to the point where you give up before reaching an satisfying end. I'd rather play those old spritegraphics games 50 times over than investing more time in Diablo 3 and alike. That's why I came to Warframe because I've had it with games on the magnitude of D3. But seems like DE wants to take exactly that route since a few updates ago... well if so then I'll have to look for another game pretty soon because that's not what I originally signed up for in march or february 2013. Back then I praised Warframe to my friends for not having random stats on items and the Kubrows are literally a break-up in the line for me. It's up to DE anyways on how they want to implement a way to better determine the outcome. My proposal is just an idea that's not like "Make it like the colorpalettes!" rather than adopting some ideas of the current breeding. I know DE wants to have something more sophisticated for Kubrows... So basically yes, I've only seen the "small" Kubrow once yet in a mission... It's as small as a Cat or something... It seems to be extremely rare. My system would allow to have that feature if you'd isolate it from the traits of a random incubated Kubrow. Normal Kubrows would be made up of both traits... Short height & tall height. But that's only a personal recommendation and I don't think DE will implement anything the way I have proposed it. Not even anywhere near it. So I will eventually just wait and look what we get now. ^^ Basically I had imagined it to work like that: Imagine you want to incubate a random new egg. Then you have a blank template with rows of specific traits. For example: Temperament (Race): Gender: Build: Height: Fur Pattern: Fur Color 1: Fur Color 2: ... (and so on) and in each row you'd have 2-4 slots or something (depending on how complex a trait can be for example Gender doesn't need to be as complex as fur color, but there would ALWAYS be a minimum of 2 cards required) where you can put in fitting trait cards. And once you put in a trait card the possible "result" will be shown in a preview window... and as you enter more trait cards the "result"-preview gradually changes to adopt all the trait cards you picked. The extact position of a trait card in a row could also determine some variants... which would be especially needed for fur-colors... to determine intermediate colors or something. So you can fiddle around and see what happens similar to the way when experimenting with Combined Elements @ Mods. Eventually once you've filled up all slots with at least some basic cards you'd have to hit the apply button and that consumes all the trait cards in the process and incubates the Kubrow. You may or may not fill up all traits with cards but then those traits are partially left open for RNG. Picking no cards at all means fully random incubating. The time it takes to incubate the Kubrow would then depend on how complex the setup is you want to incubate/mutate. The more trait cards you throw into the blender the longer it takes to forge that DNA string and to incubate the egg. So you may have to wait 2 days for a randomly incubated egg... but if you'd throw in something like the Lotus symbol you've to wait a week or whatever. ^^ That's basically how I imagined it. The same goes for modifying an existing Kubrow but instead you'd probably pick only some specific traits you want to change/override rather than all. But you could change everything on an existing Kubrow as well if you wanted to. But the basic fact would be... Trait Cards are consumed in the process and that's why you'd have a rough preview on what happens so to not waste them. Also if you pick to change an existing Kubrow or when you "design" a new Kubrow using trait cards then all the traits you altered become destabilized, meaning that once the "designed" Kubrow is matured or the existing Kubrow is finished mutating then you can't extract any of those changed traits anymore. The Kubrow becomes a "receiver" instead of a "provider". Otherwise the market would be overflowed with trait cards because when you incubate your Kubrow using a specific trait you bought on the trade-channel you could start selling that trait yourself and therbey become a direct concurrence for your former seller, which would eventually end up in dumping all the prices for traits to the cellar, which is not what we want to go for. With consuming trait cards and preventing "changed traits" to be extracted there's a viable way extracted traits are removed from the market and the market doesn't get oversaturated and would present a steadily demand for some stuff. Extraction of specific traits would work exactly the other way around. So you'd have to pick a trait you want to isolate and then there's the possibility that some traits are rather complex (made up of 2-4 trait cards) and the more complex it gets the longer it takes to extract all it's traitcards or something. With really ridiculous long cooldown times for bullcrap like Lotus symbols or Colors made up by 4 traits and whatnot. The amount of trait-cards extracted would eventually have to deterimine how often you can extract traits from "provider" Kubrows so to not overflood the market again. When thinking about that... DE might have found a good limitation of 2 extracts per Kubrow already... That or only 2 extracts every month/week or so.. Ok, I hadn't understood all this. Let's hope that DE hears us, this idea is seriously how I thought things would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyriann Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 (edited) Another random thought, I know here we talk about the breeding system but... The actual DNA decay seems still a bit too fast for the beginners and none daily active players to handle with ease. So I thought there are two possibilities : The first could be to, again, reduce the daily decay rate, maybe to 10% in three days or something. The second could be too reduce the cost of DNA stabilizers or even, make it a craft item but then in less important quantities. Those are just random thoughts that I didn't know were to put and as we are talking about breeding I thought it would be appropriate. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong or not. Edit: I just saw the idea existed somewhere else, thanks to the mega-thread so this has no sense here. Edited August 7, 2014 by Cyriann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeduSalem Posted August 7, 2014 Author Share Posted August 7, 2014 (edited) -snip- Edit: I just saw the idea existed somewhere else, thanks to the mega-thread so this has no sense here. Yupp, basically I'd have to you refered to the Mega Thread as well: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/278994-kubrow-feedback-megathread-with-poll-results/ That said I've been thinking what if... what if the Kubrow DNA stability would depend on how much you fiddled around with it's traits? The more overly designed your Kubrow is the faster it's DNA degrades. But that's just a random thought here in relation to my proposed genetic forge. xD New players will probably have random Kubrows with DNA that degrades very very very slowly... but high roller endgame Veterans with overly designed Kubrows don't experience the same problems with running out of Credits fast so their designed Kubrows could degrade at a faster rate. But that's just a real random thought and is heavily on the unfair side since min/maxer would stop caring about Kubrow design and go for the ones with the cheapest Upkeep. Edited August 7, 2014 by MeduSalem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyriann Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Yupp, basically I'd have to you refered to the Mega Thread as well: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/278994-kubrow-feedback-megathread-with-poll-results/ That said I've been thinking what if... what if the Kubrow DNA stability would depend on how much you fiddled around with it's traits? The more overly designed your Kubrow is the faster it's DNA degrades. But that's just a random thought here in relation to my proposed genetic forge. xD New players will probably have random Kubrows with DNA that degrades very very very slowly... but high roller endgame Veterans with overly designed Kubrows don't experience the same problems with running out of Credits fast so their designed Kubrows could degrade at a faster rate. But that's just a real random thought and is heavily on the unfair side since min/maxer would stop caring about Kubrow design and go for the ones with the cheapest Upkeep. Ummm, maybe that's a bit too harsh for people, even with good levels that can't play regularly. After all the main problem of this decay system is that it needs constant care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noteybook Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 DE, please listen to OP. The Kubrow system is a mess right now and really needs a revamp. The randomness would be acceptable if the time-sink and money-sink weren't so high(if RNG doesn't like you, good luck finding an egg. Then you have to wait 2 days for your Kubrow to hatch. Then you have to wait another two days for it to mature. And the 3 hours to recover from stasis sickness? Really? And don't get me started on buying imprints and the DNA stabilizers), but since they are, you'd basically created a Las Vegas situation where out of all the money and time thrown in, only a handful of people will "win". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeduSalem Posted August 18, 2014 Author Share Posted August 18, 2014 (edited) So Tenno Live Devstream... I guess we will get our full Kubrow customization with U14.5...? I might not like the current breeding system... but somehow I think if DE the removes the breeding alltogether they miss out on a nice game mechanic. Just my thought about it. Should just have made the breeding more reliable the way I proposed in OP with individual traits being like mod-cards that can be extracted and fused/mixed together... or with some of the other proposals in the Kubrow Megathread. But well I can live with full customization and palettes too... At least there will lesser complaints... or only from the unlucky people who spend a bazillion Plat on Imprints. ^^ Ummm, maybe that's a bit too harsh for people, even with good levels that can't play regularly. After all the main problem of this decay system is that it needs constant care. Probably... was just a random thought... Didn't include it in OP anyways. xD Edited August 18, 2014 by MeduSalem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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