Shotguns Are So Bad.

[(PSN)Cincinnati-93]

The only even remotely decent shotgun in this game at the moment is the phage, which is more like an alien tentacle gun than a shotgun. Why are these so bad? I've asked numerous rank 16 friends and they've all said the exact same thing. It's irritating in a sense that the only really great assault rifle in this game is the Boltor prime, and so many other weapons are sub par. I think a change from impact damage to puncture damage would help increase the strength and make the weapons much more useful. Shotguns with impact damage are only great against the corpus right now.

 

Thoughts on the state of shotguns? Do we need a shotgun buff?

 

(PLEASE NOTE: weapons aren't the same for both systems, we do not have the Strun Wraith and some others)

Edited August 3, 2014 by (PS4)Cincinnati-93

[Alad_VI]

I find the shotguns that I use to be exceptional, those being the Boar Prime and Strun Wraith. Drakgoon is also a shotgun that some people enjoy, even though it isn't technically a shotgun.

[(PSN)BKLadyLuck]

My boar prime puts in work. Hell even the carrier's gun puts enemies down in all towers. I have no problems with the shotguns. If they get a buff yay and if they don't I'm still OK with them.

[jennibear]

We just need some new ones is all.

[TheGentlemanRolePlayer]

Shotguns are great for people who don't have end game content. They're meant to be meat grinders and face breakers, and with punch through, you can break groups of enemies with them... But Yes... We need more slashing and piercing shotguns!

[TMHowler]

Shotgun AND a Sniper buff, yes!

[-Ozymandias-]

Well if you compare everything else with the boltor prime then yes everything else will suck.

But the Boar prime is really good, the strun wraith as well.

I personally like the Hek, it's not OP but decent

[PeanutMonster]

We just need some new ones is all.

 

No. The old ones need to be buffed to match the rifles and secondary weapons before any new shotguns get added.

[Leetium]

Take this and go.

[OliverV]

Boar Prime is quite effective when used well. Take advantage of it's high status chance and impact damage.

 

With that said...shotguns aren't for everyone. I'd like to see a buff, but I don't think it is desperately needed.

Edited August 3, 2014 by OliverV

[(PSN)Cincinnati-93]

Shotgun AND a Sniper buff, yes!

Please.

[Kurrumitsumi]

drakgoon is amazing, one shot ancents in the face

Edited August 3, 2014 by Kurrumitsumi

[vaugahn]

Corrosive/status build boar prime says hello.

[011100110110000101101101]

Well if you compare everything else with the boltor prime then yes everything else will suck.

But the Boar prime is really good, the strun wraith as well.

I personally like the Hek, it's not OP but decent

Hek Master Race.

 

Hail to the king.

[Sixty5]

My opinions on the matter

 

To begin this is a topic I have been thinking about for awhile, I even had my question about it answered on the last devstream (yay) and it was confirmed that shotguns are getting a look at at some point soon. this topic is not about that. this topic is about why they need some love and what form that love can take. Skip to the last section/paragraph if this is TL:DR material, my suggestions sum my points up decently, but I'd like you to read the whole thing =3

 

Four score and seven years ago, way back in the days of U7 the shotguns ruled Warframe, with the Hek presiding over all. However those days are now gone, and shotguns are now the weakest type of weapon (going off of mod categories) and it is time for a few buffs.

(I will say here that the Phage is exempt from all arguments here, it isn't a shotgun even if it uses shotgun mods and ammo)

 

So what is wrong with them?

 

To start with Shotguns lack a proper niche. They neither work well at dealing massive damage per hit or at dealing DPS, and even with that taken into consideration they require users to take far more risks for this lower reward. 

I think the best way to make my point here is to give you guys an example.

 

This is the Tigris. 

It is a double barreled shotgun that is rather fun to use. In Scott's words, this thing should hit like a truck. Well now, let us see just how hard it hits.

 

 

This is my Tigris, it has 6 forma in it. The mods pictured will give it the highest damage possible. Literally this is the strongest the Tigris can get. So let's see how much damage this thing does eh?

 

Well 200 base damage with a 240% boost from damage mods gives us 680 base physical damage

I get an additional +420% from my elemental mods taking the total per shot to 3536, not bad

Finally if I factor in an additional 120% from Hells Chamber this takes us to 7779.2 damage per shot.

 

Of course this isn't factoring in crits or procs, but right here I want to find the damage I can deal reliably here. So 7779.2 it is. This can be doubled to 15558.2 if you rapid fire it. Sounds strong.

 

 

Now have a look at my Paris Prime

 

No forma, and my serration isn't even maxed, but let's see how much it hits for per shot, it can hardly be better than a 6 forma shotgun that hits like a truck

 

again 200 base damage, but with a +150% damage boost gives me 500 physical damage

and then +180% from elementals gives us 1400 base damage, wow the Tigris is crapping on it.

But now we need to factor in the paris Primes guaranteed crits. That is a 4.4x damage multiplier taking it to 6160

Finally with Split chamber giving an average +90% damage buff takes it to 11704 damage per shot. 1.5x that of a completely maxed out Tigris.

 

And here is the real kicker, the Paris Prime will work at any range, whereas with damage falloff and the Tigris's spread (not helped by VS) unless you are point blank you will most likely NOT be doing your full amount of damage. 

 

Take into consideration that this is the most powerful shotgun in the game by a fairly large margin. In terms of per shot damage ANY shotgun is sub par compared to a bow, even if you have the shotgun completely maxed out.

 

 

But why is this?

 

To start with look at shotgun damage mods. +90%, +90% with +Spread, and +60% with +60% fire. That is three slots for a total of 240% extra base damage, as opposed to rifles that get 330% for two slots and pistols that get 286% for two slots. Three mod slots for less damage (slow clap)

But what about the damage from blaze?

Well here is some math to show you what happens to a weapons damage with each mod added

Green boxes are base damage mods, yellow are elemental damage. I combined the damage from mod 2 and 3 for shotguns to make the math a bit easier. The numbers in the damage row show how much damage a weapon with 100 base damage would deal with that number of mods

 

But as you can see there is a pretty big difference in how much damage your mods give you on shotguns. 

Put simply, shotgun mods are bad.

 

 

The next problem is the falloff. 

This was a legitimate fix back in the day to stop Hek sniping, but nowadays it feels kinda redundant. Vicious spread actually accomplishes the same goal. Either you run it and lose the ability to shotgun snipe, or you run it with Tainted shell and lose out on damage and DPS OR you drop Vicious Spread altogether and gimp yourself out of even more damage.

Basically the mod system has given us a means to reduce shotgun sniping without the need for damage falloff

 

 

The final two issues with shotguns I'll go over together

Status

Shotgun status chance is stupid. Either all pellets proc the same thing or none do. A per pellet chance, in the same manner shotgun crit is calculated would be a lot nicer and would make status mods actually worth it on shotguns. You wouldn't even have to buff the chance. just split it up per pellet.

Risk vs Reward

Shotguns are typically a close range type of weapon. Things like the Boar prime require you to almost be in the enemies face to hit them with everything. And even then a guy with a Soma can do the same thing faster from a safe distance, some sort of system to reward getting in close with a shotgun needs to be in the game in order to make them feel special.

 

 

 

What I would like to see done:

 

1) Falloff needs to go on true shotguns (the Brakk kinda needs it as a balance factor). Damage falloff adds little to the game when the presence of Vicious Spread acts as a regulator for sniping with these weapons.

 

2) Shotguns need to hit harder. Whether this is through buffs to either the weapons or the mods, or as I would prefer, a system that grants increased damage for the more pellets you hit an enemy with (say +5% for each additional pellet). Having the hardest hitting weapon in a category at its best outclassed by another weapon with a fairly average loadout should not happen.

 

3) Status per pellet. Even if they retained the same overall status chance this would be an improvement. It would actually give shotguns a pretty interesting niche, as well as making status a tad more real on them.

 

Link to topic https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/261331-shotguns-need-love-too/

[(PSN)Cincinnati-93]

Corrosive/status build boar prime says hello.

Will have to try this

[shaun10656]

I HAVENT SEEN a shotgun in forever I don't see anybody using them but we do need new ones good new ones why would they even invent the tigris?

Edited August 3, 2014 by shaun10656

[Filas312]

I want my shotguns slashing and grinding stuff, we need a massive buff.

[(PSN)Gage_VH]

Boar Prime is a savage.

 

The Drakgoon isn't half bad either if you can appreciate the mechanics. (Which I do)

[(PSN)Cincinnati-93]

I HAVENT SEEN a shotgun in forever I don't see anybody using them but we do need new ones good new ones why would they even invent the tigris?

Exactly.

[Bloodywing]

Remove damage falloff and give me back my Hek sniper!

[RoboDoge]

Boar Prime is fun and i mostly use weapons for fun fuctor. No fun factor, i wont use it.

[Filas312]

Boar Prime is a savage.

 

The Drakgoon isn't half bad either if you can appreciate the mechanics. (Which I do)

 

Yet Drak should really make meat out of mobs, which it doesn't, and that's a shame.

[vaugahn]

Will have to try this

 

Mine is at 98% status and it wrecks the face of anything with armor. Unfortunately it runs out of ammo every 10 seconds XD

[[DE]Momaw]

Well if you compare everything else with the boltor prime then yes everything else will suck.

This. Boltor Prime is the peak of the OP mountain. I use my Boar Prime quite a bit and love it, it is a very effective weapon.

 

Though, there is somewhat of a fundamental disconnect between shotguns and Warframe.  What is the combat purpose of a shotgun?  They are used either for assaulting, where you have a short distance to cover but a large quantity of enemies to kill, or for defense where their insane one-shot stopping power is put to use if somebody tries to rush your position.  In short shotguns are used for brief, nasty fights.

 

But...

 

Warframe is a marathon. Aside from extermination mode, enemies are numerous and respawn. You don't assault, because there's more bad guys just beyond the point where you run dry, and you don't really sit and wait for enemies to come to you because if you aren't a moving target then you're probably a dead one. You need a weapon with sustained endurance to deal with the way Warframe plays, not a weapon with burst power followed by total vulnerability.  This is why the Phage and Boar Prime are the most practical shotguns and Tigris is one of the most useless pieces of junk in the game: reasonable reload times combined with plenty of kill power per magazine.