Primes; A Way To Become One... Rather Th

[Tiqalicious]

Interesting tidbit about "emerging from the void" ... always thought from Ember's Codex that the Void-energy exposed Tenno were taken back to "real space" where the Orokin constructed the Warframe exo-suit

It seems that what you are citing may be yet another bit of inconsistency, but time will tell ...

 

Still, you didn't explicitly answer my question about the comparative features of the Orokin PrimeFrame and the Tenno Warframe ...

Who is the suprerior?

 

Primes are superior. The normal warframes are designed specifically as close approximations.

[ElHefe]

Primes are superior. The normal warframes are designed specifically as close approximations.

 

OK ... so we agree on that (tentatively until DE reveals more)

 

That said, help me understand what is Lore inconsistent about having to master a Tenno exo-suit before working an Orokin Prime suit?

[Dhrekr]

Sorry. I was under the impression there was no lore. Maybe Only snippets of what DE has made up...and what the community made up (which I'm not going to agree with) DE has not set it in stone.

How did primes become primes? Were they Tenno before, get lost on the void, then evolve into a prime state?

This is where my idea came from.

Again I don't pay attention to "lore".

Thanks for ignoring the very little lore we actually have.

 

Primes never "become" primes. Also, do not confuse the Warframe (the battlesuit) and the Tenno (the user inside the suit).

 

Once upon a time there was the Orokin civilization. They were powerful and great, and they built fantastic, white-and-gold, weapons and battlesuits for their guards, the Tenno. Those ancient Warframes and weapons are called "Prime", just because they are the first version thereof.

 

After the fall of the Orokin civilization, their technology and manufacturing skills were in part lost. The Lotus and the Tenno kept building new Warframes, inspired from the originals, but never quite the same. The Corpus kept building weapons, inspired from the originals, but never quite the same (for example the Braton).

 

In case you aren't convinced, please read the Codex entry of the Burston Prime or of the Ankyros Prime. They couldn't be more explicit than that.

 

 

For all intent and purpose, a Prime warframe is a Warframe that you have assembled by venturing into the Void, finding ancient pieces and blueprints, and putting them together. It is not, in any way, an evolution of the (recently built) Warframe you use. One is the imperfect copy of the other.

 

 

Also, please do not misuse the term "evolution". It has a specific meaning, and it's not the one you are using. What you mean to say is "upgrade".

Edited August 27, 2014 by Dhrekr

[Tiqalicious]

Well the issue comes down to whether or not when playing around in the arsenal, we're one tenno switching between suits or one player switching between tenno, which is something that the lore is yet to give us an answer to (and very well may never do so) IF we're switching between tenno then it would be implied that a tenno within a normal frame could not become prime.

[IIPREDATORII]

Ok. So there were primes locked in the void. They were the first Warframes. Ok. So they would be the first eight correct? The ones being made now

Then apparently the ones we have now are down graded versions? Ok that's fine.

Why not add that the frames we have now have to become a prime the same way the first primes did. To me that would fit the lore I'm reading, I think.

How did they become the prime before getting locked in the void?

My thoughts are they went in as Tenno came out as prime Tenno. Am I wrong.

I'm playing my idea off of hearsay that's all.

[Tiqalicious]

For those interested

 

Thanks for ignoring the very little lore we actually have.

 

Primes never "become" primes. Also, do not confuse the Warframe (the battlesuit) and the Tenno (the user inside the suit).

 

Once upon a time there was the Orokin civilization. They were powerful and great, and they built fantastic, white-and-gold, weapons and battlesuits for their guards, the Tenno. Those ancient Warframes and weapons are called "Prime", just because they are the first version thereof.

 

After the fall of the Orokin civilization, their technology and manufacturing skills were in part lost. The Lotus and the Tenno kept building new Warframes, inspired from the originals, but never quite the same. The Corpus kept building weapons, inspired from the originals, but never quite the same (for example the Braton).

 

In case you aren't convinced, please read the Codex entry of the Burston Prime or of the Ankyros Prime. They couldn't be more explicit than that.

 

 

For all intent and purpose, a Prime warframe is a Warframe that you have assembled by venturing into the Void, finding ancient pieces and blueprints, and putting them together. It is not, in any way, an evolution of the (recently built) Warframe you use. One is the imperfect copy of the other.

 

 

Also, please do not misuse the term "evolution". It has a specific meaning, and it's not the one you are using. What you mean to say is "upgrade".

For those interested, here are the codex entries for Ankyros and Burston prime, giving concrete weight to primes existing as the originals.

Ankyros Prime: This Orokin variation of the Ankyros is superior to its successor in every way.

Burston Prime: Once thought lost to the ages, attempts to reengineer the Burston Prime never fully replicated this weapon's power and agility.

[Tiqalicious]

Ok. So there were primes locked in the void. They were the first Warframes. Ok. So they would be the first eight correct? The ones being made now

Then apparently the ones we have now are down graded versions? Ok that's fine.

Why not add that the frames we have now have to become a prime the same way the first primes did. To me that would fit the lore I'm reading, I think.

How did they become the prime before getting locked in the void?

My thoughts are they went in as Tenno came out as prime Tenno. Am I wrong.

I'm playing my idea off of hearsay that's all.

No, see you're still thinking of an evolution but that's not how it works. Prime frames were BUILT as primes. They never existed as anything BUT primes and unprimed frames cannot become primed frames because they are not one in the same. Unprimed frames are an attempt at creating the same thing based on distant memories and descriptions. You couldn't just take a pale imitation and turn it into the original.

[IIPREDATORII]

Thanks for ignoring the very little lore we actually have.

 

Primes never "become" primes. Also, do not confuse the Warframe (the battlesuit) and the Tenno (the user inside the suit).

 

Once upon a time there was the Orokin civilization. They were powerful and great, and they built fantastic, white-and-gold, weapons and battlesuits for their guards, the Tenno. Those ancient Warframes and weapons are called "Prime", just because they are the first version thereof.

 

After the fall of the Orokin civilization, their technology and manufacturing skills were in part lost. The Lotus and the Tenno kept building new Warframes, inspired from the originals, but never quite the same. The Corpus kept building weapons, inspired from the originals, but never quite the same (for example the Braton).

 

In case you aren't convinced, please read the Codex entry of the Burston Prime or of the Ankyros Prime. They couldn't be more explicit than that.

 

 

For all intent and purpose, a Prime warframe is a Warframe that you have assembled by venturing into the Void, finding ancient pieces and blueprints, and putting them together. It is not, in any way, an evolution of the (recently built) Warframe you use. One is the imperfect copy of the other.

 

 

Also, please do not misuse the term "evolution". It has a specific meaning, and it's not the one you are using. What you mean to say is "upgrade".

I'm sorry for not giving a crap about some made up bunk that isn't even completed. Would you read a novel that had missing pages? I know I wouldn't, and that's why I don't know much about it. Don't be a $&*^. Could have just said here's what is out there so far. You should have a read. Lore is getting better.

Also I will use the term evolve because that's what happened to Hayden Tenno in dark sector so I will use it. Again being you're being a $&*^ by the way.

[ElHefe]

@ Dhrekr ... semantics aside, what is wrong with the concept of having to master a Tenno exo-suit before being able to use an Orokin PrimeFrame?

 

Secondly, it would be logical - and Lore consistent - for the components to be found in the Orokin Towers and Ships adrift in the Void, but that need not change simply because you couldn't use the assembled Prime Warframe

 

You could even stage it where you obtained all the necessary parts before maxing the corresponding Tenno exo-suit - you just can't complete final assembly or don it on until you have completely mastered the Tenno suit

None other than The Lotus herself states IN GAME that "you must master the warframe" when coming out of stasis ...

Seems LEARNING is a key aspect of USING

 

Lastly - and not to nitpick - but didn't the Orokin develop the Prime Warframe in DESPARATION while losing The Old War with the Sentients? 

The Void-exposed Tenno outfitted with the NEW Warframe - possibly based upon the Zero Suit that the Orokin general armed forces used -  were first fielded against the Sentients

It was only after the war was won by the Tenno that they returned to Orokin society but whether they were to be guards for the Orokin is not clear because the Tenno immediately slaughtered them

 

The Stalker - or some version of him (clone perhaps?) - did belong to a lower guard, but it is almost universally accepted by the forum that he was not nor ever was a true Tenno

Edited August 27, 2014 by ElHefe

[IIPREDATORII]

No, see you're still thinking of an evolution but that's not how it works. Prime frames were BUILT as primes. They never existed as anything BUT primes and unprimed frames cannot become primed frames because they are not one in the same. Unprimed frames are an attempt at creating the same thing based on distant memories and descriptions. You couldn't just take a pale imitation and turn it into the original.

Roger.

I'm typing on my iPhone so responses are slow. I appologize. Can't see responses doing this over the phone until I'm done. Haha. Oops.

[Tiqalicious]

Roger.

I'm typing on my iPhone so responses are slow. I appologize. Can't see responses doing this over the phone until I'm done. Haha. Oops.

No problem bud, that's the great thing about a message board. I'm more than happy to come back to this convo whenever it's convenient for others to do so.

[amano_jatan]

I think that in order to be a prime you should have to "evolve" your frame into it.

First we should have frames raised to 30. Then use the mastery system to further the evolution into a prime. Each level complete gains you pieces to the prime that you could attach seperatly to place on our frames. Once full prime is complete you will also see the polarity change.

Now say if you wanted to just use the regular frame. You could just simply take the pieces off the frame, or have them set as a configure setting in the appearance section.

Note: A) the Warframe should only be the prime (to gain the polarity) if all the pieces are attached.

B) Each frame has a seperate amount of mastery points to achieve prime.

Thoughts?

 

I've been talking to couple of my friends regarding this issue since last year.

 

Here is my idea. Prime variant should require Rank 30 regular frame/weapon as a component.

(Like Dragon Nikana except Dragon Nikana does not require fully ranked Nikana)

 

It's kinda strange for players to play Prime variants (aka "The IMPROVED version") first then play regular ones later.

Personally, I strongly think players should experience and master the Non-Prime versions before they can lay their hands on the Prime versions.

[Tiqalicious]

I've been talking to couple of my friends regarding this issue since last year.

 

Here is my idea. Prime variant should require Rank 30 regular frame/weapon as a component.

(Like Dragon Nikana except Dragon Nikana does not require fully ranked Nikana)

 

It's kinda strange for players to play Prime variants (aka "The IMPROVED version") first then play regular ones later.

Personally, I strongly think players should experience and master the Non-Prime versions before they can lay their hands on the Prime versions.

It's not strange at all because primed frames and non primed frames are completely separate entities.

[Tsukinoki]

@amano_jatan
The only problem with that idea of yours is what about collectors, such as myself, who want *all* of the frames and weapons in the game?
In order to get Loki Prime I would have to farm, build, and Rank up to 30 Loki *twice*.

Then turn one of them in Loki Prime.
Why?
What purpose would that serve other than giving collectors a larger hassle?

And what about dual primes, such as the AkBronco Prime?
You seriously want to waste the time building up 2 separate Broncos, ranking both of them to 30, and then building them into Bronco Prime so that you can combine them into AkBronco Prime?
Building the AkBronco Prime is enough of a grind as it is.  We dont need to artificially lengthen that by adding the requirement of requiring R30 gear as well.

@IIPREDATORII
Few questions:
1) What would happen to all of the current mastery gained from prime gear?
Since it would no longer be a seperate frame with its own levels and mastery, what would happen to everyone's ranks?  And what about people that are forced down a few ranks from the sudden loss of all of the prime mastery?
If we leave mastery ranks the same as they are now, then people will cry foul as it will be impossible for new players to ever catch up to older players in terms of mastery.
If we remove the mastery from everyone, then you opened a can of worms where people are suddenly locked out of weapons that they were in the middle of crafting or researching.

2) How would the polarity change work if you have already formaed the base frame a few times?
One reason I like having both the prime frame and the base frame is that I can have 2 separate forma builds between them.
And what about the players that had formaed all of their slots to have polarities?
Would the prime frame over-write a polarity while all of the parts are attached?  Or would it not do that and therefore for most of the current frames just become a simple cosmetic that changes absolutely nothing about the frame?

3) What would happen to all of the current prime frames?
Would they just turn into cosmetics and leave you with empty slots?
What about any forma that you had put into the prime frames?
What about reactors?

Also I have one final question about this idea of yours:

 

Maybe use forma as a way to prime your frame. Each time you complete the process of leveling adds more prime pieces to your frame. 

What about builds and such on some frames I have that even with only 1 or 2 forma don't use up nearly all the points and have a build that can last me well into "endgame" T4 survival?
Would I be forced just to pour empty forma into a frame that isn't really getting any benefits from it?  Because lets face it, if I have all of the slots occupied by max rank mods and I still have points left over, adding a forma isn't going to provide any benefit what-so-ever, and in fact will be detrimental as it will be much harder to try out different builds (something that I enjoy doing all the time).
And I'm just assuming that with this idea the base polarity advantage that a prime frame would have is out the window.

Overall I see that this idea has far too many problems and issues to ever work out.

EDIT:
One last thought I had:
What about the prime parts people currently have and are buying?
What about the people that are most of the way through building a prime frame currently?  And may not have the base version?
Would they just see a message: "You have to rank up a frame X times in order to get access to the prime version"?
How is that fair to them that the work that they put into getting and building a prime frame is now wasted, all because they never got the base version of the frame?
And what would happen to the people that bought, ranked up, and sold the base version and got the prime later?
Would they be unable to use the prime version until they farmed up the base version again, built it over 3.5 days, and then ranked it up to 30?

How would it be fair to them in any way to suddenly lock them out of the prime frames that they worked towards?

And finally: What about the people who currently own *only* prime frames?
What would they be left with since the primes are now cosmetics?

And what about prime access?
How would that work in your system?

Edited August 27, 2014 by Tsukinoki

[YashiroSora]

I have a suggestion: Instead of unlocking Prime parts as attachments, since it is not viable as Primes are 'originals' of the Orokin Era, why don't we have a system similar to OP's, but have it as you master your Warframe, you gain an increased understanding in its components, and leads to the option to research and reconstruct its superior counterpart. Of course, since the method of obtaining it has changed, it could have more reliance on materials from the void. 

 

Just throwing that out there.

[MDRLOz]

Firstly all those people who think you could not evolve a regular into a prime need to read the forma tooltip:

 

"This shape-altering component is fundamental to Orokin construction."

 

These things also can build whole rooms out of piles of junk. I dont think there is a limit to the power of forma. Especially seeing as how we reverse enginer enemy tech and use forma to cross the gap that is needed to replicate corpus and Grineer tech. As those are produced in massive factories. 

So there is nothingto say a forma on a basic design as well as some other components (e.g. orokin cell and argon crystals) could not alter a basic gun into the orignal prime design. 

 

However sadly the reason it wont happen is for game-play reasons. DE did experiment wih interesting evolutionary weaponry before See Lato -> Bolto -> Akbolto. However they don't seem to do that anymore. It seems a same as they place weapons into proper hierarchies with tech trees that require progression. However you would have the choice to stop at any point along the line. 

 

Some other possible progressions:

Furis -> Afuris -> Akzani -> Akstileto 

 

Kraken -> Seer

[Beef-DeathLegacy]

Do you have an in-game reference to back up your assertion?

Wiki would be a weak secondary source ...

I think he based his assertions from the codex.

[DSpite]

Trying to use any kind of logic or specific lore to justify this is pointless. We all know that the mechanics that power the game need to come first, and DE will bend logic and lore as needed to make them fit.

 

An upgrade path will not happen. You would have to destroy a lot of existing mechanics and work of a lot of people.

 

All the Frames are, in the end, is "other characters" that we have and use. This is no different from having multiple WoW toons, or Guild War toons, we simply have have the added advantage that all our toons share a common item, resource, and unlocks pool. When you switch a Frame in this game, you are not really "switching" anything, you only have one Frame selected at one time, and if you switch, you are playing a game of "pretend" where you treat the current Frame as THE frame, as if the others don't exist. DE could have made us replay and unlock the game for each of the 20 frames like in other games, let's be thankful they did not.

 

The added complexity of such a system does not improve the game in any way. If the intention is to add more interesting lore, It would make more sense - to me - to just have extremely difficult, specialized missions, to just recover Prime Frames tech.

Edited August 27, 2014 by DSpite