Pigeon Holed While Coptering...

[Tr1ples1xer]

I use a combination of wallrunning/sling shotting/butt sliding/wall attack AND coptering to move around, its all part of the parkour imo, everything complements each other it is not one or the other, they work very well all combined. I believe coptering is absolutely vital to this game and I also believe that its one of the reasons this game is successful.

 

No one forces you to use coptering, if you take it out your basically ruining everything that makes WF unique.

 

Pro players use copter you should to.

 

COPTERING4LIFE Edited September 12, 2014 by Tr1ples1xer

[cedekane]

here I thought OP meant hitting strange "holes" in maps due to speed (either from the strange boost from slide jump, coptering, or other mobilities) that make you stuck in "mid jump" and can sometimes permanently stop you...well...rarely, hitting slide gets me out...

Haha...Now that you mention it though...i did get stuck in the void...but it was off of slingshotting.  It was in the long room.  the one with the energy orbs on the ends and lasers crossing the floor.  Same thing really

[cedekane]

I often use melees that are not good for coptering.

 

I slide a lot. This is also why I don't use rush, but maglev instead.

Wow, Maglev?  I slide a lot as well, but I've never used that.  Maybe I am pigeon-holed by using the regular parkour and just unaware.  I'll try that next time.  What keys do you use to do that?  Oh its a mod?....Thanks.

 

Currently, I'd say I make most use out of the slingshots.  It is tons of fun, probably similar to coptering really, but you have to look for something to jump off of so not as useful.  Though it does seem to have elasticity post U14.  Hopeful that things get back to normal soon.

Edited September 12, 2014 by cedekane

[cedekane]

Pro players use copter you should to.

Hmmm.  No, but thank you for the suggestion.

 

EDIT: Reread post.

 

No one forces you to use coptering, if you take it out your basically ruining everything that makes WF unique.

I agree with the first part.  The second part seems melodramatic to me....Really, Everything?

 

Ironic that you argue that coptering makes warframe unique, while I argue that coptering makes people who play warframe conform.

 

Anyway, kudos for throwing some wall running and other stuff that makes warframe unique into that vid.  You shoot a mean music video, do you play the game as well?

 

copteringIsToParkourAsTurdsAreToMonaLisa4LifeYOLO....but dang that'd be one unique mona lisa...

Edited September 12, 2014 by cedekane

[cedekane]

lol

It truly made me lol :)  dumb birds...

[UncommonUnicorn]

Rhino Frost Oberon. What's defensive have to do with their level of slow?

 

You're forgetting Saryn.

Also, I hate coptering and sling-shotting.

 

[(PSN)Strifedecer]

The main thing is....who cares?

Players want to copter, let them copter. The game is still great, and I prefer having fun with other maneuvers.

Geez.

[cedekane]

The main thing is....who cares?

Players want to copter, let them copter. The game is still great, and I prefer having fun with other maneuvers.

Geez.

Thank you for the response.  I prefer diversity in movement as well, in fact it's one of my main arguments against coptering.  When you are designing a game, balance needs to come into play.  A design needs to come into play.  It's all in the OP.

 

So, as DE's official stance on coptering has changed, now I'm asking "Ok DE, what can you do to make me feel as though coptering was ever supposed to be included into this game?  Why does it still feel like a janky bug that tagged along and got ignored for a year?"  

 

I applaud you being able to ignore it, I wish I were you.  To some of us, immersion is important in a game.  Statistics are important.  I'm glad it's official, while I've never liked it, now we can move on and find out where it actually belongs designed into the game.  That's where we are going right?  Right?  Yeah, it's wishful thinking.  

 

To answer your question.  I care.  Enough that I posted.  That post got you to post.  And now we are communicating.  We may not see eye to eye, but maybe you'll see an idea you like and share it, or maybe you won't...I don't expect DE will even look at this thread, and though i don't expect to change anyone's mind, maybe I got one person to look at things differently.  That's one more than yesterday, sometimes that's enough.

Edited September 12, 2014 by cedekane

[cedekane]

You're forgetting Saryn.

Also, I hate coptering and sling-shotting.

 

interesting, they do both violate real world physics a bit I suppose.  Sling-shotting is when you come off a wall run?

[TisEric]

if the movement system and the stamina systems were actually good there wouldn't be such a need for copter mastery.

Movement is clunky at best , ridiculously hard to chain actions , wall running is buggy as hell ,

jump button unresponsive 50% of the time , sprinting is mega slow.

 

 

Stamina is pointless , used for melee , running , parkouring , blocking at the same time.

Using melee as your primary play style? cant have that without dumping the 3-4 stamina mods to compensate for poor stamina system.

Its literally a way to slow down the players for no reason.

 

Coptering bypasses all these issues by just tossing you across a room.

Band aid fix'es for poor programming is what DE excels at.

[Ryouhi]

Coptering has been engrained into a lot of people's playstyles. Making it a mod can affect a build they've invested. Though I'm not a fan of coptering, I'd just not touch it and leave the speedsters be.

If you want to use 'legit' mobility builds you need to sacrifice mod slots for rush, maglev and the like too, why should coptering get the best mobility there is in this game with zero drawbacks?

[Macdermott]

I use a combination of wallrunning/sling shotting/butt sliding/wall attack AND coptering to move around, its all part of the parkour imo, everything complements each other it is not one or the other, they work very well all combined. I believe coptering is absolutely vital to this game and I also believe that its one of the reasons this game is successful.

 

No one forces you to use coptering, if you take it out your basically ruining everything that makes WF unique.

 

Pro players use copter you should to.

 

COPTERING4LIFE

Yeah, that video is awesome, but an honest conversation with the devs would probably yield "Most of that's unintended".

 

That's the only point here.  What's intended, and what's not?  How can the players who enjoy playing like the high-flying space ninjas in that video SIMULTANEOUSLY play with other players who don't know how or don't want to fly around, while both maintain their enjoyment of the game?

 

We just all want to get along, a short, a chuckle, and a hug.  :)

[Otenko]

I remember that coptering was removed in one of the updates, in fact I think it was right after Melee 2.0. Zorens no longer pushed you across a room, but it seemed that the community was in an uproar over that, so they put coptering back in.

 

In the past, I used to support it. It was something neat and it was very useful for mobility across larger spaces.

 

However, the more that I've played, the more I've noticed that it really eclipses most other movement options.

 

There's no wall-run segment that's long enough to necessitate wall runs over coptering. There's no real reason to buttslide into a jump if you have a good enough copter weapon. There's usually not much of a reason to use wall-attacks over coptering either mainly because it's way easier to aim. They seem to be more of a crutch than anything else. It might be fun to do, as it really promotes itself as the solution to any parkour situation (sans vertical wall running).

 

Although now I'm a little disappointed by it. With all of the attack speed mods that we have right now, coptering becomes totally nuts. While I respect the fact that people like it being kind of nuts, I think the momentum increase should be toned down a bit. It doesn't need to totally stop you like an Obex/Furax slide attack, but I think it shouldn't be nearly as long as a maxed Fury/Quickening/Berserker Ichors.

 

In my opinion, it should be about as far/fast as a butt-slide flip and a little less distance/slower than a wall-kick off thing. Although I'd be fine with coptering being slightly faster than butt-slide flips.

 

This would cause butt-slide flips to still function as a reasonable means of travel (which is still hindered a bit by uneven terrain) and coptering could still be used to good effect anywhere.

 

I think wall-jumps should probably be the fastest method of movement, since it'd promote looking at the terrain and finding what you need to do in order to travel the fastest. I think it'd make people think a little bit more about the tilesets they're in, farther than "how fast will I hit that wall if I copter across this room?"

 

For the record, I don't think coptering should be removed, but I think the exorbitant momentum boost could stand to be toned down slightly so that coptering is used alongside parkour instead of to the exclusion of it.

Edited September 12, 2014 by Otenko

[cedekane]

if the movement system and the stamina systems were actually good there wouldn't be such a need for copter mastery.

Movement is clunky at best , ridiculously hard to chain actions , wall running is buggy as hell ,

jump button unresponsive 50% of the time , sprinting is mega slow.

 

 

Stamina is pointless , used for melee , running , parkouring , blocking at the same time.

Using melee as your primary play style? cant have that without dumping the 3-4 stamina mods to compensate for poor stamina system.

Its literally a way to slow down the players for no reason.

 

Coptering bypasses all these issues by just tossing you across a room.

Band aid fix'es for poor programming is what DE excels at.

Good morning!  Thank you for the response.

 

Hahah IKR!  A system that is apparently so bad that there are in fact 2 band aids!  The uber clunky mod system with more mods that I can remember.  And the unintended bug that became legit.

 

If you've read my posts, than you probably already know I use the first system.  Rush mainly.  With a speed modded Loki I can do a jackal run in maybe 2-3 minutes.  As I've easily been run down and taunted by coptering Rhino's, so I know its not the fastest time.  And time is money after all.

 

But it's respectable enough for me, and the mod system is interesting enough.  

 

So yeah, I can see the viewpoint of maybe not having enough time to invest to deal with that stuff.  Maybe you just got off work and want to shoot grins, dealing with 10 mins of finding mods can be a drag.

[Troll_Logic]

Yeah, I see idiots coptering all the time.  If it is a huge open map, then they'll run way out in front.  Often they'll die and I'll laugh and laugh and laugh.  But if it's a close map, they run over things, run past doors, jump off ledges, and so on.  I laugh at them as well.

 

Hate coptering.

[cedekane]

Thanks Mcdermott.  That right, we are just cuddles, kisses and hugs over here.....uh oh, let me say something before we all start making out.

 

You know I kind of have a knee jerk reaction to coptering, so I came off a little snarky.

 

After a good night's rest, I'm going to quote a snippet of a private convo I had with the owner of that video.  Owner had 1600 of practice time to get that good.

 

"After 1200 hours of play time i can tell you that you are the exception. A normal game for me consist of seeing players copter copter copter, which equals snorefest snorefest snorefest.

 

I'm not trying to get coptering removed.  In fact I'm trying to get it improved, by having the devs invest a little more attention into it.

 

1) the visuals are the obvious choice, and this will come regardless, I'm sure.

 

2) As you've read in the OP, I also think it should have some drawbacks to it.  Why?  So that way your gameplay becomes the norm...for everyone.  That would make Warframe better.

 

You should help me, its what pros do."  

Edited September 12, 2014 by cedekane

[BrazilianJoe]

I think coptering should be *kind of* decoupled from weapon weight. 

 

Coptering speed should be nerfed very much, so as to make modding the Warframe (Sprint and Maglev) be better than any melee weapon unmodded for coptering. 

 

Melee weapons would then have 2 mods, one to trade coptering speed for coptering attack power, and the other to change coptering attack power for coptering speed. 

 

Weapons should still have weight and coptering attack power attributes whhich would take part in the damage/speed calculation.

Edited September 12, 2014 by BrazilianJoe

[cedekane]

Good Morning,

 

Thanks BrazilianJoe,  anything that adds another min/max system to the game would be much appreciated IMO.  The statistics monger in me really likes this idea.  Certain weapons would gain speed in coptering, but sacrifice in damage.  A simple enough solution.

 

I think I'm being unfair.  I'm arguing for balance changes to coptering when I've never once even used coptering in all my hours playing WF.  I don't even know how to use it!  So I'm joining the masses!  The first step was to find a tutorial.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poEwm3iBZoY

(sorry guys, I'm lame and don't know how to embed this)

 

"all you need to do it is a maxed out fury mods, the other mods don't really matter"

 

"Traversing the distance of this room takes almost a full 10 seconds and Nova is one of the fastest warframes in the game"

 

"By using a repeated dual zoren slide attack or zoren copter it's done in just about 3 seconds"

 

"If i chain together multiple aerial zoren copters, it flings me across the room in less than a second"

 

"As you can see, the distance I cover with my Nova gate, can be done faster just by doing the zoren copter."

 

I'm sold!  Where do I sign up.  In watching this I've realized that the procopter's are absolutely right.  It comes down to playstyle.  More movement options make the game better.  As this video indicates, Zoren coptering is the most efficient means of travel in the game.  Why would I use anything else?

 

Possibly more tomorrow.  Honestly, from the amount of replies I'm getting here I think my job is about done.  Apart from a small rabble of anti coptering die hards, it seems most people either don't care or like coptering as is.  It's like I'm appealing to air. It's a shame.  

 

My Preception:  Shallow designs like coptering and insta-kill ultimates that clear the room at the click of a button can only weaken a game.  Games need to have a challenge, they can't always give you take you from point a to point b within a second at the click of a button.  These designs are unrewarding and will bring us closer to the stereotypical shallow FTP.  There is more to fear from this precedent than if our favorite company here got bought out by another company with a bad rep.  But what can you do?  The masses have spoken.

Edited September 13, 2014 by cedekane

[Lukap99]

EDIT:

We've been arguing for improving the copter for a while now.
Honestly, I have nothing to add to this discussion. That is, nothing that has already been said.

Edited September 13, 2014 by Lukap99

[cedekane]

EDIT:

We've been arguing for improving the copter for a while now.

Honestly, I have nothing to add to this discussion. That is, nothing that has already been said.

I empathize with the frustrations of everyone on all sides of the issue.  Procopters and noncopters alike. Perhaps it's been said and most possible by others who can communicate better :)  I think most of us are ready to put this to bed...let's do it in a way where it doesn't come back to haunt us every few months.

 

Thanks Lukap99 :)

[Cpl_Facehugger]

-How many times have you bypassed a wallrun that was designed into a level by coptering?  

-Sling shot or slide for extra speed?  Why?  

-Sacrificed Rush, Quick Rest or Marathon, while thinking "Eh, I'll just copter."?  

-Will you take a coptering weapon over everything else?  

-Pigeon-holed.

 

How many times have I bypassed a wallrun by coptering? Not very often. Once or twice? Most parkour places are in the void and most parkour courses in the void involve vertical as well as horizontal movement, and copters sure as hell can't go up.

 

Conversely, how many times has coptering in a void parkour course caused me to lose time due to overshooting a platform? Too many times to count.

 

How many times do I slingshot for extra speed? All the time. Especially in void parkour courses. I also copter, preferentially slingshotting via parkour then coptering for even more speed.

 

Sacrificed rush/etc because I've got zorens? Never. Because coptering isn't the best solution for all situations.

 

Actually, if they make it a mod, you could slap it on any weapon. Would be good for added variety in melee loadouts.

 

Because what Warfarm needs is yet another mod to farm, right? Nevermind that a lot of people use all eight slots for their build anyway. If anything, more gameplay features need to be like coptering instead of mods - things like, say, parrying, recovery from stun/knockdown, etc. At least coptering takes somewhat precise timing.

[cedekane]

Thank you very much for your honest opinion Cpl_Facehugger.  Now that I know how to copter(see reply 43), I'm planning on doing some test runs (time permitting) that may shed some light onto whether coptering is "situational" or just plain better!

 

Because what Warfarm needs is yet another mod to farm, right? Nevermind that a lot of people use all eight slots for their build anyway. If anything, more gameplay features need to be like coptering instead of mods - things like, say, parrying, recovery from stun/knockdown, etc. At least coptering takes somewhat precise timing.

 

This sounds like an interesting system.  A movement/action system based more on skill than on mods or stats.  All frames do actually have parry.  They could take recovery from knockdown/stun out of mods and just make them innate to the frame though(which would also help to remove the clutter of "junk mods").  I believe the poster you were responding to was brainstorming a system where melee(or copter) weapons were more balanced.  For instance, Is there a reason why all melee weapons don't have coptering abilities?  Are the ones that don't balanced with the ones that do?  Haha, though farming another mod isn't the most exciting thing, you just called the game Warfarm, are you aware of something else to do in this game?

 

I don't know if the community needs/wants more mods.  Do we need Mk-1's added to the market?  The community thought so...My objective is not to be assuming, but accepting of different ideas, perhaps change some minds or maybe have my mind changed on the way.  

 

As far as 8 slots(your saying that's not enough to fit everything you want?)  I gotta disagree with your there.  My opinion would be that you should have to sacrifice this mod or that mod depending on the situation.  If the player is too comfortable, then the developers are doing something wrong.  In that case you'd be right, we wouldn't need hundreds of mods, we'd need 8.

Edited September 14, 2014 by cedekane

[AlphaHorseman]

Yes, and dilute the drop tables further.

 

Yes, make something a mod that no one will use because it has nothing to do with damage.

 

Yes, people feel "pigeon-holed" into something that they can choose to do without, something they don't actually have to do. After all, it's not like they could use some "wall running,sling shotting, sliding, speed...sprinting" in the stead of coptering.

 

No, you don't have to make it into a mod, it's already a working mechanic. No, you aren't pressured into choosing a weapon capable of coptering, it's your choice to do it, if the PuG squad you're playing with says otherwise, they don't know that different people prefer different weapons for different reasons. There are a select amount of people that use Rush, Quick Rest, or Marathon, so making Coptering into a mod isn't gonna up the value of them, the logic doesn't make any sense.

[Inmemoratus]

I agree with the OP. At this point I've given up on every weapon besides the Zorens because why gimp my movement?

 

It's not a matter of being impatient about how fast I get places. It's more about combat mobility. The Zorens close gaps and let you actually dodge stuff. You're gimping yourself by not using them.

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

What's coptering?

Is it when you slide and then jump?

 

If so, then I think it's fine. Parkour seemed like an afterthought. Coptering, sliding, etc. does ruin the need for speed/sprint mods though.