Boltor Prime: Killing The Game?

[D0ubleFE]

its low levl req since ehem* prime access.

 

So much this for many many weapons... the only prime with a Rank more than 2 is Dakra Prime... from the time prime access wasn't a thing.

[Nichivo]

I can't think of any "exclusive" weapon that is vastly (or even remotely) superior to those available... To me that's just plain old "other people have it but I don't and I can never have it, so my baby reflexes kick in and I cry".

I know it sucks, I wasn't there for Strun Wraith and Snipetron Vandal events, and it &!$$es me off, but I don't blame DE for it.

There are other games where the "exclusive items" phenomenon is much more present too. It would be hypocritical to put the blame on the devs just like that.^^'

 

 

And who knows... maybe we'll get another shot at Strun/Snipetron/whatevernotfounderstuff in the future. The vault might be re-opened for these. Might make the current owners of these weapons angry (and understandably so) though.^^'

It means one less person to play with, it adds up over time. To DE it's effectively snatching a few dollars fast, at the cost of making more dollars down the road. Fact is a lot of people who play games are collectors, and they are usually more apt to open a wallet if it means finishing a collection they have been working on, but the instant they can't finish collecting they take their money elsewhere, and we all lose.

 

You can call it what you like. I call it bad business. It would be like going down to buy a new truck and the dealer saying sorry we only made 1000 this year and sold them all for 50k each, instead of making 250,000 and selling them for 30k each, and we also decided to stop making trucks. No problem I'm sure someone else is still making trucks and wants my money.

 

Bad Business is Bad Business, no matter how you slice it, you end up with a slice of Bad Business.

 

Back on track, Boltor P hardly needs nerfs it like many other things just need MR changes.

[TrashSpider]

they sould imo make all weapons mastery rank locked

 

(only listing primary weapons here to give a rough idea)

Mrank 0-1 - mk1 weapons

Mrank 1-4 - boltor, burston, braton, hind, karak, latron and vulkar

Mrank 4-8 Clan weapons + soma and penta

Mrank 8-10 Prime weapons + Prime frames

 

that would make prime weapons and frames endgame

there might be some weapons the would need another catagory but this is just the basic idea

Where would Stalkers/other assassin gear fall on then? I know RNG makes him and his gear hard to obtain, but in general should there be a MR rank on them too? 

 

I also think Prime gear should fall between clan weapons as well, not all prime gear is created equal

Edited September 17, 2014 by cryotech9020

[Seanjuju]

I don't think prime weapons can be both mastery exempt and tradable. It needs to be one or the other. Make it so that only mastery 7+ can trade prime parts.

[Agentcheese]

Heh, I always diversify my weapons to use. Hell, I even run around with Lex Prime, Braton Prime, Burston Prime, Cernos, Grakata, and all the other odd-ball weapons most players would consider "low-tier" simply out of having some personal amusement.

 

I find that people mostly play games just to have the best of equipment and be the strongest all the time so they can move on like its a discarded candy wrapper. I just find it more rewarding to just have fun with whatever the game has and make something out of it.

exactly the same here. also I think im amused a little to easily like how I find it funny to club grineer to death with non detonated penta rounds.

 

same opinion on the strongest weapons as well. sure I could go into every mission with the soma dragon nikana and angstrom but were's the fun in that? I prefer the fun things like blast damage on the ignus, then color it and the flame blue and pretend its a nitro glycerin thrower. 

 

it might not make any sense when you think about it for more then 2 seconds, but if you use your imagination it works fine.

[Kalenath]

I actually prefer the Supra.

 

A laser minigun or laser hose. What is not to like? You don't even need to aim. Not really.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Kalenath

[HiPNoTiK]

People are always crying about the boltor prime but haven't seen 1 in months.......

[Sloan441]

Frankly, I don't see it that often myself.

 

I don't even use my own that much, unless it's a long term T3/4 survival or defense.

 

The horrible irony of this is no matter what DE does (or doesn't do) this will never go away. It'll just morph into another trendy hate/jealousy-fest when the next high end primary goes live.

 

This is why I'm sooooo waiting for a Soma Prime. Hipster heads will explode and I can swab the bore out with their tears after a mission.   

[Arabaxus]

Great, it's this thread again.

 

 

Now here's where the problem starts. Every weapon they got after the Boltor Prime, they simply said "wasn't as good" "it's too weak for me" "who the hell would use this?!" etc etc. They had gotten so used to the BP thats pretty much all they could use.

 

Please fix this DE. Just change the MR requirement to 7 or something higher. The strongest weapon in the game should not be made available so early and so cheap.

 

 

Raising the MR requirement is brilliant, but also raise the requirement of Paris Prime and Latron Prime to 7 or higher, and re-evaluate all the other MR requirements.

 

However, the first statement is pure player preference. Here is my profile:

 

 

Yet after I've played the game more and progressed further, I rarely touch either one of them anymore. Carrier is always my go-to, even over my Wyrm Prime, because utility, but that's a story for another time. Now I find more enjoyment in play Loki Prime and Paris Prime. Sure, it has a higher skill ceiling, especially when using a Bow over an automatic rifle, but I simply find it more enjoyable.

 

So you cannot attribute this fully to the fault of the MR requirement, as to be completely fair, it is also partially their own fault. Just because you have used a really statistically good weapon doesn't mean you can't use other ones. No one is forcing you to use Boltor Prime in everything, that is also a conscious choice.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Arabaxus

[notionphil]

if you remove boltor prime, some other weapon will take its place.

 

let me just quickly chime in on this point.

 

No other weapon is so effective at such a low mastery level, as to make players barely a week old feel like every other weapon is a downgrade.

 

 

This isn't something you will fix by only changing the req to wield Boltor Prime. There are a lot of alternatives that will make things a hell lot easier to get through. 

 

They had no interest in playing the other frames or using the other weapons, and to me that sounds like they weren't really interested in what is a large part of what makes Warframe fun (imo).

 

It sounds more like Warframe wasn't something they were gonna actually enjoy for to long regardless, because being OP is more the rule then an exception. People like myself don;t consider that the end goal of playing WF, and I have created my own fun and can still enjoy being silly with Nekros his shadows for example.

 

That said, DE would do well to get some more structure when it comes to Mastery requirements. it would probably be more beneficial overall then our current situation..

 

Progression is a key driver of play in many games, especially those with an MMO or RPG-esque feel like WF.

 

Even in adventure games, pacing is critical. Think of the order in which you received weapons in Doom, or Quake. Think of the way your arsenal grows in DMC or Far Cry.

 

If you break progression or pacing, players have less motivation to 'play just one more level'. Once they're hooked, that's a different story. But giving your biggest "carrot" at MR2 is all risk and no benefit. Nothing positive can come of it; those players would be far better suited with a Grakata or Latron...and the desire to improve.

Edited September 17, 2014 by notionphil

[taiiat]

Just raise its mastery requirement.

sure, and to match it's DPS that's 20,000 higher than any other gun in the game (in applicable Damage)...

 

Mastery 16 minimum.

[Archistopheles]

Prime Access and MR restrictions don't mix well. You can't have both.

[Seanjuju]

Prime Access and MR restrictions don't mix well. You can't have both.

Prime gear is essentially mastery exempt to begin with. I don't think raising mastery requirements can be a solution here.

[Arabaxus]

let me just quickly chime in on this point.

 

No other weapon is so effective at such a low mastery level, as to make players barely a week old feel like every other weapon is a downgrade.

 

 

 

Progression is a key driver of play in many games, especially those with an MMO or RPG-esque feel like WF.

 

Even in adventure games, pacing is critical. Think of the order in which you received weapons in Doom, or Quake. Think of the way your arsenal grows in DMC or Far Cry.

 

If you break progression or pacing, players have less motivation to 'play just one more level'. Once they're hooked, that's a different story. But giving your biggest "carrot" at MR2 is all risk and no benefit. Nothing positive can come of it; those players would be far better suited with a Grakata or Latron...and the desire to improve.

 

This argument can be applied to the entire trading system. Progression of mods can be mitigated through the purchase of mods, and even fully ranked mods. You no longer need have a strong loadout to do something like Orokin Derelict Exterminate for Corrupt mods, which used to be behind a gear and skill gate, by simply purchasing them because they are frankly dirt cheap.  This is likely one of the reasons Warframe was hesitant to include a trading system.

 

 

Prime gear is essentially mastery exempt to begin with. I don't think raising mastery requirements can be a solution here.

 

Previously, before trading was implemented, having no MR requirements was not an issue because you would either have to be carried or would not be able to acquire Prime weapons aside from Prime Access, due to the difficulty of Void missions replacing level requirements. 

 

If we are to extend back to the root of the problem, I believe that the trading system is the root cause of all these problems.

 

I would propose different MR requirements to trade for specific things. For example:

 

Mastery Rank 2 for general trade;

 

Mastery Rank 5 for Corrupt Mods and nightmare mods alongside being able to trade for ranked mods up to rank 5.

 

Mastery Rank 6 for Prime Melee Weapons

 

Mastery Rank 7 for Prime Secondary Weapons

 

Mastery Rank 8 for Prime Primary weapons

 

Mastery Rank 10 for trading fully ranked mods up to 10 ranks.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Arabaxus

[Doommarine654]

Really to be honest prime weapons should require its base weapon as a crafting req and be of rank 30 for the weapon. Then attach a relatively good mastery rank between 6 and 9. Best way IMO to contoll usage.

[sekushiiandee]

sure, and to match it's DPS that's 20,000 higher than any other gun in the game (in applicable Damage)...

 

Mastery 16 minimum.

^ i like the MR 16 minimum. +1

[Arabaxus]

^ i like the MR 16 minimum. +1

 

Only if MR isn't attributed to something as arbitrary as ranking up weapons, and is then attributed to something that is related to actual linear progression.

 

I don't like the idea of players being tunneled into ranking weapon to 30 just to toss them with the ultimate goal of just one thing.

[(PSN)KestralSylver]

I'm not usually one to say that one small thing can ruin the game, but Boltor Prime absolutely does ruin this game. I got it, forma'd it once and then decided it made the game too easy and never picked it up again. It's still sitting in my arsenal, collecting cobwebs and dust because of my desire for legitimate challenge.

 

I'm amazed when I manage to play consecutive matches that don't have at least two people using Boltor Prime and Rhino Prime. And I feel like, now that the prime access for the weapon is long since closed, it's MR requirement can be raised. Even if that means that a lot of lower level players can't use a gun that they paid for, it gives them something to work towards again. Let's be honest, if you're addicted to being overpowered, you aren't going to just give up because they made your favorite gun temporarily unavailable to you. Or maybe you will, but I personally wouldn't miss non-dedicated low level players who quit the game due to an MR lock on their OP gun. MR 9 isn't THAT hard to reach if you dabble in different gear.

 

Admittedly though, I wouldn't look forward to all the forum complaints about the increased MR for Boltor Prime. You know there would be at least 5 threads a day for a while.

Edited September 17, 2014 by (PS4)KestralSylver

[Arabaxus]

I'm not usually one to say that one small thing can ruin the game, but Boltor Prime absolutely does ruin this game. I got it, forma'd it once and then decided it made the game too easy and never picked it up again. It's still sitting in my arsenal, collecting cobwebs and dust because of my desire for legitimate challenge.

 

I'm amazed when I manage to play consecutive matches that don't have at least two people using Boltor Prime and Rhino Prime. And I feel like, now that the prime access for the weapon is long since closed, it's MR requirement can be raised. Even if that means that a lot of lower level players can't use a gun that they paid for, it gives them something to work towards again. Let's be honest, if you're addicted to being overpowered, you aren't going to just give up because they made your favorite gun temporarily unavailable to you. Or maybe you will, but I personally wouldn't miss non-dedicated low level players who quit the game due to an MR lock on their OP gun. MR 9 isn't THAT hard to reach if you dabble in different gear.

 

Admittedly though, I wouldn't look forward to all the forum complaints about the increased MR for Boltor Prime. You know there would be at least 5 a day for a while.

 

I'd imagine that there may be several legal issues with that though. One of the reasons changing it now is so hard is because people have had access to it for the longest time, with the main problem being some players paid actual cash money for it.

[sekushiiandee]

Only if MR isn't attributed to something as arbitrary as ranking up weapons, and is then attributed to something that is related to actual linear progression.

 

I don't like the idea of players being tunneled into ranking weapon to 30 just to toss them with the ultimate goal of just one thing.

*sarcasm

[Arabaxus]

*sarcasm

 

I'm pretty serious about this, the issue is our main "linear progression" in terms of our character/account and not weapons and tools (Warframes) is determined by the arbitrary number of weapons and Warframes we have ranked up to 30. It would be a good system if it complimented with a better linear system, but standalone I think it is a bad idea.

 

Meanwhile, players who can access more weapons at once (slots costing platinum) I believe get an advantage.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Arabaxus

[(PSN)KestralSylver]

So you cannot attribute this fully to the fault of the MR requirement, as to be completely fair, it is also partially their own fault. Just because you have used a really statistically good weapon doesn't mean you can't use other ones. No one is forcing you to use Boltor Prime in everything, that is also a conscious choice.

There is definitely fault to be placed on the player using Boltor Prime exclusively or even semi exclusively.

 

However, many people are simply interested in making themselves as powerful as possible and won't touch anything that doesn't beat what they are currently using (think of pretty much any RPG with ranked armor and weapons.)

 

So, when you place an incredibly powerful gun at such a low experience threshold (or none at all in this case) everyone and their mother is going to go for it.

 

Why? Because they probably asked around or did some research only to discover that Boltor Prime is easily attained, not terribly expensive, and beats (debatable) every other weapon in the game in terms of sheer DPS.

 

This is both the users' fault and the game developer's as well. The users for not relishing in challenge or variety to keep them interested in the game and the developers' for making an OP weapon available from the get-go.

[Arabaxus]

There is definitely fault to be placed on the player using Boltor Prime exclusively or even semi exclusively.

 

However, many people are simply interested in making themselves as powerful as possible and won't touch anything that doesn't beat what they are currently using (think of pretty much any RPG with ranked armor and weapons.)

 

So, when you place an incredibly powerful gun at such a low experience threshold (or none at all in this case) everyone and their mother is going to go for it.

 

Why? Because they probably asked around or did some research only to discover that Boltor Prime is easily attained, not terribly expensive, and beats (debatable) every other weapon in the game in terms of sheer DPS.

 

This is both the users' fault and the game developer's as well. The users for not relishing in challenge or variety to keep them interested in the game and the developers' for making an OP weapon available from the get-go.

 

I agree with this, but again I still think this entire problem was caused by the trading system.

 

Even with a MR requirement of 2, without the trade system, the only way to acquire it would be to have someone carry you through the void missions, because at MR2, it is highly unlikely you have access to the weapons needed to beat them on your own. Without the trade system, trying to abuse the MR requirement would be highly inefficient, if not impractical. 

 

But then trade happened. And anyone who is MR2 can trade for basically anything. I still think we should have higher MR requirements to trade for different things. I'm not against raising Boltor Prime's MR requirement, I'm simply worried about any business or legal repercussions because it was offered in Prime Access.

 

 

If they made it completely unavailable or removed it from their arsenals that would be a violation of the EULA, however it clearly states that the acquisition, stats, and prerequisits of any item can be changed at any time in the interest of game balance. This is one of those situations where the "beta" status of the game is actually a boon. 

 

As long as they can still eventually regain access to said item without having to directly spend more money to do so, there is no legal reason they can't do this. They likely haven't done so simply for PR reasons. The complaints would flood in with numbers the likes of which we have never witnessed, I should think.

 

 

^ Pretty much that sums up my thoughts.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Arabaxus

[(PSN)KestralSylver]

I'd imagine that there may be several legal issues with that though. One of the reasons changing it now is so hard is because people have had access to it for the longest time, with the main problem being some players paid actual cash money for it.

If they made it completely unavailable or removed it from their arsenals that would be a violation of the EULA, however it clearly states that the acquisition, stats, and prerequisits of any item can be changed at any time in the interest of game balance. This is one of those situations where the "beta" status of the game is actually a boon. 

 

As long as they can still eventually regain access to said item without having to directly spend more money to do so, there is no legal reason they can't do this. They likely haven't done so simply for PR reasons. The complaints would flood in with numbers the likes of which we have never witnessed, I should think.

[sekushiiandee]

I'm pretty serious about this, the issue is our main "linear progression" in terms of our character/account and not weapons and tools (Warframes) is determined by the arbitrary number of weapons and Warframes we have ranked up to 30. It would be a good system if it complimented with a better linear system, but standalone I think it is a bad idea.

 

Meanwhile, players who can access more weapons at once (slots costing platinum) I believe get an advantage.

^ the only thing i can think of is to put a quest lock on these "overpowered" weapons

 

completing the quest will verify your skill and ability to play the game as opposed to using an affinity booster over and over to just rank up weapons to 30 for mastery points

 

the quests and how to verify if someone is good enough to use a weapon will just vary

 

or.....increase the difficulty of the mastery rank tests

 

 

if you want to talk seriously...then yes i dont think mastery rank will make that big of a difference....it will just further push the divide between the veterans, good players, casual players, and the newbies

 

increase MR will just make the rich buy affinity boosters...and the poor frustrated and want to quit the game because they cant obtain a weapon that everyone boasts about....a lot of casual players complain that MR locks are a burden because "no time to play because of life reasons"

Edited September 17, 2014 by sekushiiandee