Hindsight Bias And What It Means In Judgment Of Enemy Abilities

[Valafor]

Hindsight bias is that we when we look back on an event, even if it was not our event,, what to do seems obvious or easy, even if the answers are not so clear.

So why am I talking about this? Because Warframe's enemies have a lot of cheap gimmicks that can not be avoided or are pretty hard to dodge. For instance, being grappled by anything is annoying, and while if it is a 1v1 it should be easy to dodge,, but when you are getting gangbanged by the Grineer or the Infested, it is near impossible to dodge everything. I see some outrageous comments like "Oh you should just dodge this or kill that and its all your fault" because it's not that easy in game. It seems obvious in reflection but it is not easy or even possible in the situation, because you simply have to keep in mind so many variables. In hindsight, there is only one variable: BS Toxic Damage clouds from the Mutalist Ospreys, Ancient grapples, Grineer Heavy slams, etc etc. However, when you are actually playing you are not JUST focused about those things, there are other things actively trying to kill you.

In hindsight people may tell you "it's your fault for being grappled by the ancient, you should have dodged" but what if I was being surrounded by Infested chargers? Should I ignore them to take down the Ancient and let their "weak claw attacks" rip me to shred because they actually do a huge amount of damage? Or in the case of the Grineer, should I focus all my attention on the Heavy while the Seekers shoot me with their OP Krakens? Am I expected to dodge EVERY SINGLE BULLET from a room filled with Grineer, and that if I get a slash proc from a stray Hind burst, it is all my fault? If I walk into the room and there is a heavy gunner right there in front of me and immediately ground slams, is it my fault for not having instant reflexes or not packing enemy sense?

So next time you are about to post something saying "You just need to do x, y and z and this is no longer a problem", remember the hindsight bias. What may seem so obvious and easy to you in retrospect may not be even possible in reality.

Edited September 24, 2014 by Valafor

[noveltyhero]

This doesn't belong in feedback section to be honest...

 

However enemy abilities don't need to be removed, just improved

[VentiGlondi]

Am I expected to dodge EVERY SINGLE BULLET from a room filled with Grineer,

Dodging hitscan

 

heh

[Naftal]

What abilities are cheap? Grappling can be blocked and you can prevent yourself being dragged all the way to the enemy if you don't block it.

[Valafor]

What abilities are cheap? Grappling can be blocked and you can prevent yourself being dragged all the way to the enemy if you don't block it.

 

Ok so always keep your melee out at all times is what you're saying, or use reflex guard? What if I was using a gun at the time? Are you telling me the only way to play Warframe is to use my melee weapon, and only certain ones too because flying enemies exist?

[Casardis]

What abilities are cheap? Grappling can be blocked and you can prevent yourself being dragged all the way to the enemy if you don't block it.

 

Since when can you prevent the dragging? You either need a companion or squadmate to help stop that, which means requiring other outside factors completely out of your control. Also, Grineer Commander's Switch Teleport is one of the cheapest. Ancients Grapple is also among the most annoying because of how fast it is, and how deadly at close range the Infested are. There's not even any kind of build up before the grapple, and they can even do it while falling off a ledge so you can't even see them before it happens.

 

Blocking is good, yeah, except that switching between weapons is incredibly slow, and Speed Holster is easily just a bandaid mod to be honest. If they make things that require fast reflexes, they need to give us full control and capabilities to make use of them instead of negating them (for example. knocking an enemy down before they unleashed their AoE strike will not stop them, despite you reacting fast). That's how games like Ninja Gaiden do, and why it's praised for its difficulty.

 

 

This doesn't belong in feedback section to be honest...

 

However enemy abilities don't need to be removed, just improved

 

Indeed, many enemy abilities can easily improved by overhauling them, which can nerf them in a good way. However, I think something that makes people want them removed is... well, a few factors:

 

- They sometime have trouble balancing those skills in a short amount of time, and therefore it might be better to remove them for review until they work in a better way, maybe through further feedback from the community.

- They sometime take too long to address a long-time issue and requested change, such as Grineer Commander's switch teleport that is still unchanged, yet pretty much hated by most. Despite the changes in Ancients and many feedback about them, including the fact that Disruptors can still magnetize you (U14 patch note said that it was removed), they didn't address any of that. No Infested feedback megathread, and not even once did it appear in Community Hot Topics even if there were some hot discussions.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Casardis

[Naftal]

Ok so always keep your melee out at all times is what you're saying, or use reflex guard? What if I was using a gun at the time? Are you telling me the only way to play Warframe is to use my melee weapon, and only certain ones too because flying enemies exist?

You can spin attack be cc immune. A lot of other melee swings give you cc immunity as well. Most abilities give you cc immunity while being cast. You can slide out of the way very fast.

 

You can play with guns or melee, whichever you prefer.

[Naftal]

Since when can you prevent the dragging? 

When you're being dragged, you can slide. Well, not actually slide but you can get the momentum to the direction you are trying to slide. Do this "sliding" multiple times in the opposing direction where you are being dragged to and they can't drag you more than half way.

[Casardis]

When you're being dragged, you can slide. Well, not actually slide but you can get the momentum to the direction you are trying to slide. Do this "sliding" multiple times in the opposing direction where you are being dragged to and they can't drag you more than half way.

 

Sounds like a physics bug due to how the gameplay works instead of being an actual feature, so unfortunately I don't see this as an actual strategy. In fact, it's more like a "temporary workaround" until they actually give us a way to struggle out of the dragging, or to cut the cord, anything really.

 

But thanks for the information. I'll use this for now until they work it out, if they do.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Casardis

[xkillo32]

press 4 to win

[Valafor]

You can spin attack be cc immune. A lot of other melee swings give you cc immunity as well. Most abilities give you cc immunity while being cast. You can slide out of the way very fast.

 

You can play with guns or melee, whichever you prefer.

 

So I should constantly be spin attacking around and shooting at the same time? Like I said in the post, there are things that seem very obvious in hindsight but are not really viable in game. You are a perfect example of what my whole post was trying to talk about.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Valafor

[Vargras]

If you're gonna complain about abilities, just complain about abilities. Leave the attempt at psychological analysis out of it -- it's irrelevant and makes me care even less.

[Octoknightx]

New infested...stupid aura stacking is insane.

[Naftal]

So I should constantly be spin attacking around and shooting at the same time? Like I said in the post, there are things that seem very obvious in hindsight but are not really viable in game. You are a perfect example of what my whole post was trying to talk about.

If you are constantly getting knocked down, then yes, you should constantly be spin attacking/sliding/rolling/casting abilities/etc to dodge those knockdowns obviously...

 

I don't know what to tell you... you have your opinion on "my kind of people", I think "your kind" are just too lazy or inept to adapt to situations...

[Lumireaver]

I don't have much to offer on this discourse other than my complete support for the rebalancing of the current "gimmick" mechanics.

[Runtowin]

I would like someone to tell me how to dodge Switch Teleport from Grineer Commander.

"OMG, you were fighting the Grinner, you should have expected one!" is not the solution.

[Azawarau]

So you cant avoid the things that have no choice but to run straight at you while focusing on the tallest target?

 

You could throw an AoE CC and they all just bunch right into it

 

Its really not hard at all

 

Dont forget that warframe is a game about taking out large amounts of mindless cannon fodder at once and there are none dumber than the infested

[Marthrym]

So, between spinning forever to avoid/counter hooks/cheap mechanics and removing these mechanics entirely... Isn't there a middle ground? Always extremes. Always... *sigh*

[RoelYento]

So you have a hard time solo and complain about it but plenty of other people complain game isn't hard enough. It is your fault when you get grappled, enemy ground slams next to you, or you end up getting owned by the enemy. Obviously later in survival or defense the enemies will outlevel your ability to kill them but besides then you should be able to deal with them. Plenty of warframes have aoe damage, mobility, crowd control, or a way to kill enemies. Prioritize targets, use some abilities, and move around some. You won't dodge everything but from the sounds of your post you are not able to dodge anything.

[Casardis]

So, between spinning forever to avoid/counter hooks/cheap mechanics and removing these mechanics entirely... Isn't there a middle ground? Always extremes. Always... *sigh*

 

Well yes, it's called giving more refined mechanics, and there's MANY feedback topics about this, including ones that doesn't go over too complex AI (notionphil comes to mind in terms of great feedback, IMO). I would never say no to more refined mechanics, which is why I'm against removing entirely, but I'm also against leaving so many of these things as it is.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Casardis

[Zerohades]

If you are constantly getting knocked down, then yes, you should constantly be spin attacking/sliding/rolling/casting abilities/etc to dodge those knockdowns obviously...

 

I don't know what to tell you... you have your opinion on "my kind of people", I think "your kind" are just too lazy or inept to adapt to situations...

+1 nothing else to say.

 

 

Except each game has his mechanics and this one is part of the game, I personally have no problem with ancient grab as i'm playing rhino (IS), lokhi or saryn (Decoy) or frost (Bubble low diameter, low cost)...

 

Solution: Go play corpus map.

 

Zero

Edited September 20, 2014 by Zerohades

[Mirakid]

Ok so always keep your melee out at all times is what you're saying, or use reflex guard? What if I was using a gun at the time? Are you telling me the only way to play Warframe is to use my melee weapon, and only certain ones too because flying enemies exist?

This may have already been said but Fortitude can stop that from happening. When you get grappled you get knocked down THEN pulled, Fortitude gives you a knock down resist and more shield which for me works most of the time when I get grappled by a Scorpion or Ancient. But still I do agree with you for some abilities (Commander switch teleport).

[RoelYento]

I would like someone to tell me how to dodge Switch Teleport from Grineer Commander.

"OMG, you were fighting the Grinner, you should have expected one!" is not the solution.

The grineer would like to know how to dodge loki's switch teleport as well. So basically we should nerf loki's switch teleport if you aren't liking how it works... Honestly what is wrong with an enemy that has an ability they can use on you? It does no damage to you anyways.

[Valafor]

I would like someone to tell me how to dodge Switch Teleport from Grineer Commander.

"OMG, you were fighting the Grinner, you should have expected one!" is not the solution.

 

I kind of forgot about Switch Teleport, but that is really OP. They can switch teleport you from OUTSIDE the room you are in. But still it is clearly your fault you noob.

The grineer would like to know how to dodge loki's switch teleport as well. So basically we should nerf loki's switch teleport if you aren't liking how it works... Honestly what is wrong with an enemy that has an ability they can use on you? It does no damage to you anyways.

Not directly. But you stand there gawking like an idiot and you can not move or shoot for like 2 seconds. In that time you will be dead or severely injured.

[RoelYento]

I kind of forgot about Switch Teleport, but that is really OP. They can switch teleport you from OUTSIDE the room you are in. But still it is clearly your fault you noob.

Not directly. But you stand there gawking like an idiot and you can not move or shoot for like 2 seconds. In that time you will be dead or severely injured.

If that happens sometimes, oh well. I can see if death was guaranteed from switch teleport that it would be something to complain about. Since it isn't though, there is nothing wrong with it. I have probably been downed like 3 times from that, sometimes they switch teleport me away from bad situations lol. Edited September 20, 2014 by RoelYento