Hindsight Bias And What It Means In Judgment Of Enemy Abilities

[fatpig84]

Oh other than letting you shoot enemies while getting dragged by ropes.

Return quick blocking.

 

It should have NEVER being removed.

[FatalJ]

While we are throwing the psychology of game design around, I'd like to throw another thought into the mix... you, as the player, are occasionally supposed to lose. Crazy concept I know, but if in this game you want the powers akin to what you'd expect a God to have, you can't as well say "my enemies can't use the same abilities I can".

 

Yes, getting switch teleported as a squishy Ember into the thick of a Grineer horde, or getting grabbed as a Loki by an ancient you didn't see right into a Mutalist clowd, or burnt down as a Nyx by an Arson Eximus Napalm shooting the guy stood right next to you, are all pretty cheesy ways to die. However compare that to the hordes of enemies every single one of us has cut apart by using our own cheesy abilities.

 

Think of every Vauban who has locked up entire rooms of enemies, every Nova who has single handedly blew up an entire room, every Valkyr who just turned on never die mode and resurrected the whole team. Giving enemies akin to the powers of our own gives this game an element of "Oh S#&$, I didn't see that coming", and gives the well designed frames a clear weakness and counter to deal with.

 

There are far too many games and game developers out there who would make a game like this ridiculously easy, and give players all the insane power in the world, and simply give them meat to shoot at and nuke into little bits. I on the other hand am happy to see a game when a simple misstep or oversight can easily see me get sent to the floor.

 

For my Ember, I ensure I have range and my accelerant ready to stun as much of the crowd as possible if I get caught. My Loki has handsrping and constitution to recover from grabs and knockdowns extremely quickly to prevent a stun nuke. I equip my Nyx with as much duration and range as possible to allow as much enemy CC as I can manage, and then take medium range weaponry to keep my distance... but by doing those things, I create other weaknesses in my frame that I have to compensate for, and that is the beauty of the game.

If anything I'd say most of Warframe is too easy. Is Vay Hek annoying to beat? Yes, but he can be beaten if you know what kinds of things your team needs. Slapping that pile of junk into the ground is so much more satisfying because of it. I say good job DE.

Edited September 23, 2014 by FatalJ

[Vanadium]

Getting grappled by Ancients through the floor...

 

I'm such a scrub. I should ragequit and uninstall right nao because these enemies are too stronk.

 

But it is annoying when good threads are brought up about enemy AI/Scaling/CC and you always have that one guy who says "just git gud".

 

Even Scott has taken the "git gud" position before (and got a lot of flak for it) when the suggestion for integrating handspring as just something you can do was brought up during a devstream. I know the DEvs have a lot on their plate, but sometimes they gotta sit down and really play the game. Not much, just a few hours of T3/4/Ceres survival/defense a week. Without Rhino. I think a lot of player perspectives on the game's issues would become clear.

[Edgedemon]

grappled by anything is annoying, and while if it is a 1v1 it should be easy to dodge, but when you are getting gangbanged by the Grineer or the Infested, it is near impossible to dodge everything

actually you could also block if you had a melee drawn, but the core point is, you should not allow yourself to be surrounded like that because you won't be able to defend, this game is about mobility but even so depending on enemy and load out I either keep moving using wall runs jumps and rolls or find a comfortable place near something i can use as cover (volt can built his own)

 

 

gr Ancient grapples, Grineer Heavy slams, etc etc. However, when you are actually playing you are not JUST focused about those things, there are other things actively trying to kill you.

if you are not focused on enemies in a shooter? what are you looking at?

 

 

n hindsight people may tell you "it's your fault for being grappled by the ancient, you should have dodged" but what if I was being surrounded by Infested chargers? Should I ignore them to take down the Ancient and let their "weak claw attacks" rip me to shred because they actually do a huge amount of damage? 

ehh yes, you should had prioritized who was more of a threat and no one would vote for chargers in that scenario.

[Valafor]

actually you could also block if you had a melee drawn, but the core point is, you should not allow yourself to be surrounded like that because you won't be able to defend, this game is about mobility but even so depending on enemy and load out I either keep moving using wall runs jumps and rolls or find a comfortable place near something i can use as cover (volt can built his own)

 

if you are not focused on enemies in a shooter? what are you looking at?

ehh yes, you should had prioritized who was more of a threat and no one would vote for chargers in that scenario.

You must be God or something, because you are apparently omnipotent and never get surrounded.

 

Also clearly you do not play much ODD or anything on Eris, because if you did you would realize Chargers got a significant buff, doing massive damage. Now that is not that big of a deal, in fact it makes them less fodder and more of a threat. Also the Infested spawn in ridiculous numbers all around you, and how much good is your Volt Shield going to do then?

 

In addition while heavy gunners are a threat, it is not like the other Grineer can not kill you, especially those BS seekers and their Krakens. It is quite clear you did not read my main post at all and decided to just say 'git gud' because my whole post talks about how your "you should have done and prioritized on this and that" is flawed .

Edited September 23, 2014 by Valafor

[Naftal]

Can you give an example of what exact mission (and how far if endless) I should do to get into these situations where you can't do anything? Also, what loadout should I use?

[TaylorsContraction]

GRAPPLING EASY WAY TO AVOID - positioning!

 

First of all if you are surrounded by infested you're already screwed.

 

Position yourself that when you're grabbed there is an obstacle between you and the grabber. This works for me ALL THE TIME or 99% of the time. It's called using cover, moving cover to cover. Oh noes I'm grabbed but then I hit a ledge and am fine. Use your environment strategically.

 

Yes there will be a time when someone grapples you without you ever seeing them ahead of time, well it happens. Also you can dodge grapples by rolling or running perpendicular to the target source. Sliding also let's you dodge a lot of things.

 

So run, slide between cover and position yourself between objects so that when you're pulled you aren't pulled too far.

[Azawarau]

You also never told him what makes you correct with all your condescension and lack of constructive posts. 

 

There's enough people riled by the high number of cheap enemies and gimicks in this game, and there's enough of it in the game to make it highly tedious across all factions.

 

Seriously, these are the only two gimmicks DE is content to give us with the majority of their enemies:

 

Knockdowns, and shield bypassing attacks. 

 

With the aesthetic of the game alone I was expecting there to be a far better enemy variety a year and a half in. but for now this is all we have despite how much of the community (on the forums anyway) have clamored for change in the form of new and interesting ideas that seem to go entirely unnoticed. 

 

All the more snobby players tend to offer as a solution is miraculously gain omnipotence so you can see from everywhere exactly when you're about to get knocked on your @$$ and when to counter it. 

 

News flash, that's impossible, and no matter how good someones game-sense is, when you have enemies that can appear from all angles and laser doors that aren't even seen until the corpus door slides open for you to walk through it, by then you're getting flung through on your face or an enemy that wasn't there 3 seconds ago where you JUST looked is grappling you down. 

 

It's annoying. We need a way to counter this that isn't in the form of a bandaid mod, and the enemy variety needs touched up for more engaging mechanics that aren't challenging simply for their cheapness. 

How was his reply anymore constructive than mine?

 

And heres some good news

 

Youre going to get hit

 

Youre going to get knocked down

 

Youre going to die

 

It will happen because its supposed to

 

But you should avoid most of it

 

Youre a god

 

Act like one

[Jinryusai]

Can you give an example of what exact mission (and how far if endless) I should do to get into these situations where you can't do anything? Also, what loadout should I use?

You cannot dodge what you cannot see...

[Naftal]

You cannot dodge what you cannot see...

Ok so it's about situation awareness?

[Jinryusai]

Ok so it's about situation awareness?

Which depends on what one can see especially amongst the chaos...

 

One cannot always see what others can see...

[Tar_Spit_Fire]

Getting grappled by Ancients through the floor...

 

I'm such a scrub. I should ragequit and uninstall right nao because these enemies are too stronk.

 

But it is annoying when good threads are brought up about enemy AI/Scaling/CC and you always have that one guy who says "just git gud".

 

Even Scott has taken the "git gud" position before (and got a lot of flak for it) when the suggestion for integrating handspring as just something you can do was brought up during a devstream. I know the DEvs have a lot on their plate, but sometimes they gotta sit down and really play the game. Not much, just a few hours of T3/4/Ceres survival/defense a week. Without Rhino. I think a lot of player perspectives on the game's issues would become clear.

yea like Letter13 once said the slash damage mod can increase the overall damage thus enhancing the elemental damage too... and im like, DE du u even play and test your game?

[Naftal]

Which depends on what one can see especially amongst the chaos...

 

One cannot always see what others can see...

But it's not like it's game mechanics preventing that but player positioning, awareness etc.

[Jinryusai]

But it's not like it's game mechanics preventing that but player positioning, awareness etc.

Those mechanics place the enemies in positions that one cannot always see even if one is in right position.

 

One can be aware yet not perfectly aware.

 

Those such as yourself must see through the eyes of others to understand one another...

 

One cannot simply judge others through his experience alone, he must understand that others have different awareness much like the difference between a pro gamer's awareness and a average gamer, not to say one must be a pro gamer to play right. Different awareness, different playstyles, better ways to solve difficulty issues w/o resorting to cheap tricks. Examples are found in many games. Only the lazy take short cuts.

 

Many can learn to play, but only so many can be Batman..

Edited September 26, 2014 by Jinryusai

[Monolake]

Grappling IS cheap/cheat/broken http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaHGAYPmEnk 

 and it should be tweaked to stop this nonsense and make it non-isntant to give players time to react

[Vanadium]

^ This guy knows what I'm talking about. Punch through on grapple?

 

DE, please.

[Azawarau]

Grappling IS cheap/cheat/broken http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaHGAYPmEnk 

 and it should be tweaked to stop this nonsense and make it non-isntant to give players time to react

You had 15 seconds to shoot it

[LascarCapable]

Thread cleaned, title changed to avoid flaming. May change the title later if I find a better one.

 

I can feel like the thread will shortly turn into mudslinging. Please try to stay clam while arguing : I don't like having to lock a feedback thread due to those kind of posts.

[LukeAura]

Grappling IS cheap/cheat/broken http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaHGAYPmEnk 

 and it should be tweaked to stop this nonsense and make it non-isntant to give players time to react

That could do with being a fair bit slower. I'm not sure how other people have set up their controls but with my pinky on the roll key, reacting in that time frame to the sound of the grappling hook being launched is almost impossible. Games that rely on timed dodging generally give that power to thumbs or index fingers. 

[Monolake]

You had 15 seconds to shoot it

Do you really not understand it was done for testing and showcasing the broken mechanics? Like, really? 

[Noble_Cactus]

Part of that is because the Ancient's hand clipped through the wall and allowed him to grapple from the other side (which shouldn't happen because it punishes you for using cover). Part of that is also because Ancients have little to no tell for when they're going to grapple, and when you're trying to dodge a big horde of Infested, sometimes you see an Ancient in the pack and have to throw out random rolls lest you suddenly get grappled. Give him a wee bit of a startup animation and I think it'll be okay.

 

Scorpions at least have this, though the whole "I'll throw my hook directly behind me" nonsense needs to be addressed too. It's not even like you stood in front of her too long and then dodged; I've seen them hook people/me without ever even turning around.

[saltshaker42]

Ancients shouldn't even be able to grapple you. That is just too OP.

If anything only the healers should grapple, or add another ancient that grapples, because toxic and disruptors are WAY too OP, and WAY TOO ANNOYING.

 

If it were up to me, knockdown PERIOD would be removed from the game COMPLETELY. Nobody likes having the controller/keyboard slapped out of their hands.

Edited September 24, 2014 by saltshaker42

[LukeAura]

I'm not even sure why we shouldn't be able to shoot while grappled. We can someone manage to wallrun while shooting a gun, but apparently getting pulled by a hook is enough to make us to disoriented to even blind fire. 

[vaugahn]

If it were up to me, knockdown PERIOD would be removed from the game COMPLETELY. Nobody likes having the controller/keyboard slapped out of their hands.

 

Nobody likes knockdown, but this is taking it too far. Considering how durable and dangerous we are, knockdown is one of the very few ways to impose a penalty on the player.

 

It should be more avoidable though. 

[saltshaker42]

Nobody likes knockdown, but this is taking it too far. Considering how durable and dangerous we are, knockdown is one of the very few ways to impose a penalty on the player.

 

It should be more avoidable though. 

That's kinda why I added the "if it were up to me" bit.

 

I would do it.

 

I've never made a game before.

 

Take my advise with a grain of salt.