Shields Are Bad.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

@Rydian

Viral, Toxic, and Slash all affect Health stat bypassing shield. Viral halves health regardless of Shield strength or armor values.

Gas creates a Toxin DOT tick that bypasses shields.

So how can just Toxic damage be note deadly than Gas+Viral+Slash and any other element combined cannot be weaker than just toxic. (Does not make sense how you are arguing something that procs AoE toxic damage can be grouped with all other elemental damage and be weaker than just toxic damage....)

Technically Osprey's are basically using Gas which is an AoE toxin cloud and you were complaining about toxin damage, but you grouped Gas with being weaker than Toxic. I don't think I am alone with not agreeing with you in this aspect.

A couple of procs go around shield stremgth- Magnetic strips shields completely, Toxic and Gas attack health+Armor directly, Viral halves health, Slash's Bleed Proc attacks health ignoring Armor and Shields. It seems rather balanced between Procs that cannot be countered with High Shields favoring High Health and Armor & procs that High Shields can protect from.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

All in all

 

If they reduced the multiplier and increased the base damage itd be in the same spot

 

Youre literally just asking for a nerf either way

 

Your issue isnt the multiplier,Its the damage itself

 

Which is hardly a threat until you reach higher levels where its supposed to be a threat

 

I think the issue is how quickly the proc happens. If they gave players .75-2 second to escape the cloud before a proc would happen they could even increase the damage, but because the player has more ability to escape it would be a fair tradeoff. When players are fighting tons of infested and the Mutalist comes from behind they're going to lose health without much control over what's happening.

 

The more powerful an attack, the more preventive measures and warnings players should have about it.

[Rydian]

That "poison deals +200% damage" is bullS#&$ that assumes you have as much shields as hp and 0 armor when going against the infested, which is a very bad assumption...

The chart assumes you have as much shields as you do health in order to be fair to both shields and health in the calculations.  This is because the damage types will individually get a bonus to either shield or health (the grey bar's representation of the bonus only applies to one), when the total effect against the actual player is where the imbalances are (the red bar represents the converted damage towards the total pool).

 

It's also the statistical average.

 

Warframe: Shield/Health

Ash: 100/150

Banshee: 100/100

Ember: 100/100

Ember Prime: 100/100

Excalibur: 100/100

Excalibur Prime: 100/100

Frost: 100/100

Frost Prime: 100/100

Hydroid: 115/100

Loki: 75/75

Loki Prime: 75/75

Mag: 150/75

Mag Prime: 150/75

Mirage: 80/80

Nekros: 90/100

Nova: 75/100

Nyx: 100/100

Oberon: 100/125

Rhino: 150/100

Rhino Prime: 150/100

Saryn: 100/150

Trinity: 100/100

Valkyr: 50/100

Vauban: 75/100

Volt: 150/100

Zaphyr: 150/150

 

12/26 frames have the same base health as they do shields... a 100:100 ratio.

Of the remaining 14, those total to 1455/1475, which when averaged gives a 104:105 ratio.

 

 

 

All in all

 

If they reduced the multiplier and increased the base damage itd be in the same spot

 

Youre literally just asking for a nerf either way

 

Your issue isnt the multiplier,Its the damage itself

 

Which is hardly a threat until you reach higher levels where its supposed to be a threat

If they changed it so shields took toxin damage attacks they would need to change Fartspreys back to somewhere close to where they were before (stat-wise, not AI-wise or their hitbox or other changes) to keep the taken damage around the same numerically.  This has been stated, and I'm fine with that happening if that's the situation, since players would actually have a lot more wiggle room to deal with the DoT and cloud... assuming the DoT is changed to damage shields before health (like the fire DoT is right now).

 

Whether the DoT would be changed along with it, I don't have much input because the proc is a far smaller issue than the actual attack damage in my eyes.

 

 

 

@Rydian

Viral, Toxic, and Slash all affect Health stat bypassing shield. Viral halves health regardless of Shield strength or armor values.

Gas creates a Toxin DOT tick that bypasses shields.

So how can just Toxic damage be note deadly than Gas+Viral+Slash and any other element combined cannot be weaker than just toxic. (Does not make sense how you are arguing something that procs AoE toxic damage can be grouped with all other elemental damage and be weaker than just toxic damage....)

Using the example of a frame with 500 shields and 500 health...

 

A - If that frame was hit with a toxic attack with a base damage of 334, it would deal 501 damage to their health directly due to both weaknesses (shield's weakness of being treated as 0 for the attack, and the +50% bonus to Warframe flesh).  Since they only have 500 health, they die.

 

500 - (334 * 1.5) < 0

 

 

B - If that frame was hit with a Viral attack of 600 base damage, their shield pool would take 500 damage and break, leaving the remaining damage of 100.  If the attack procs Viral, the proc takes place first so their max and remaining health would be reduced to 250.  Then the remaining 100 damage of the attack deals 150 damage to their health pool, leaving them alive with 100 HP.

 

(500 / 2) - ((600 - 500) * 1.5) > 0

 

 

So 334 toxin damage is death (proc or no proc) while 600 viral damage (proccing) still leaves the target alive... despite both of them having the same listed damage bonus of "+50%" and even when factoring in Viral's proc.

 

As for the "Toxin > all the other bonuses combined", I'm talking in the effective damage bonus overtop of the regular damage.  An attack of a certain amount of toxin damage is stronger than the total damage dealt if that was split between all the other positive bonus damages to both health and shields.  That is, an attack of 100 base toxin damage against the example frame will do a lot more damage than if that 100 base damage attack was split up among all the other positive bonuses.

 

Hopefully that clears that much up.

 

Technically Osprey's are basically using Gas which is an AoE toxin cloud and you were complaining about toxin damage, but you grouped Gas with being weaker than Toxic. I don't think I am alone with not agreeing with you in this aspect.

Incorrect.  Osprey attacks do not do gas damage, they do toxin damage.

 

Gas damage does not bypass shields, and actually has a -25% penalty to damage against Warframes.  It does not inflict a DoT, and it uses a different icon than Toxin.

 

Though I guess this is a common mistake because if a Gas attack procs, it can create a separate cloud instance that does Toxin-type damage... but the attack itself that is of the Gas variety does not bypass shields or get the bonus damage versus players, and this is easily-provable in-game.

 

A couple of procs go around shield stremgth- Magnetic strips shields completely

No natural enemy uses Magnetic damage to my knowledge, the stripping requires a proc, and a player is not killed by a lack of shield, they are killed by a lack of health.

 

Toxic and Gas attack health+Armor directly

Only Toxic does, Gas does not (I know I just said this a few lines up, but I like being very clear).

 

Viral halves health

Yet still leaves frames in better shape than a weaker Toxin attack does.

 

Slash's Bleed Proc attacks health ignoring Armor and Shields

That is another thing being complained about in this thread regarding shields.  I'm not complaining about it right now because the numbers are harder to calculate and it's not a personal problem for me anyways for most of the game.

 

It seems rather balanced between Procs that cannot be countered with High Shields favoring High Health and Armor & procs that High Shields can protect from.

I'm not sure what you mean here?

 

 

 

 

EDIT: Grammar fixed, hopefully.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Rydian

[Azawarau]

I think the issue is how quickly the proc happens. If they gave players .75-2 second to escape the cloud before a proc would happen they could even increase the damage, but because the player has more ability to escape it would be a fair tradeoff. When players are fighting tons of infested and the Mutalist comes from behind they're going to lose health without much control over what's happening.

 

The more powerful an attack, the more preventive measures and warnings players should have about it.

Idk

 

I just sat in a cloud to see what would happen and i wasnt impressed

 

I stayed for a while ands folowed the osprey while killing other things

 

Not a single toxic proc

 

RnG must love me or something cause thats two shield bypassing procs that i was chasing and didnt catch

 

If they changed it so shields took toxin damage attacks they would need to change Fartspreys back to somewhere close to where they were before (stat-wise, not AI-wise or their hitbox or other changes) to keep the taken damage around the same numerically.  This has been stated, and I'm fine with that happening if that's the situation, since players would actually have a lot more wiggle room to deal with the DoT and cloud... assuming the DoT is changed to damage shields before health (like the fire DoT is right now).

And for what reason exactly should they change the shield bypassing

 

Your complaint is that it does too much damage and your solutions head mor towards entirely removing shield bypass rather than reducing damage both of which i disagree with

[Naftal]

Still, that bonus is nowhere near +200% when you calculate it with armor and for someone that is smart enough to use vitality against the infested.

 

Also, it's irrelevant to compare it to other damage types. Not only because the enemies don't deal most damage types, but also because different damages are balanced differently. There's not a single shield bypassing attack any enemy does that deals too much shield bypassing damage, until you get to very high levels, which again is irrelevant because the game is not balanced there and all damage there is too much anyway.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Idk

 

I just sat in a cloud to see what would happen and i wasnt impressed

 

I stayed for a while ands folowed the osprey while killing other things

 

Not a single toxic proc

 

RnG must love me or something cause thats two shield bypassing procs that i was chasing and didnt catch

 

What I'm saying is don't make it RNG based. 1 full second in the cloud=proc. Maybe allow the screen to flash green before then to give players warning.

I would even be okay if the time before the proc happened started at 3 seconds at level 1 and scaled until a cap of .5 seconds or so, because I think scaling like that is more beneficial than straight damage scaling or health scaling.

Edited October 16, 2014 by (PS4)WiiConquered

[StinkyPygmy]

After ejecting myself from the debate due to feeling like going around in circles, I have to say this is somewhat frustrating to read.

Despite all the numbers being thrown around there is a massive inconsistency in the logic being used. Numbers only reveal half the picture and in this case seem to be irrelevant because experience and active testing tells many people that toxin is a minor nuisance at its worst and trivial all other times.

 

Stood in a cloud with loki for 10 seconds, which is a long time to be standing in a osprey cloud considering you should always be moving when fighting the infested, and dmg per tick without a proc was around 10-20 (seemed to be slightly inconsistent). I tested this multiple times, also with varying frames. 

Loki has 225 base health, so I would have to stand in the cloud unmoving roughly for just over 22 seconds to die and 10 seconds to lose half health which is where I would consider significant dmg has been done for me to be concerned. Out of all the runs I did I proced toxin 4 times and never instantly. The proc dmg was even less then the base dmg done from the cloud itself.

These were lvl 30+ infested.

Even Toxin dmg taken from a poison infused charger is rather laughable.

 

All Toxin dmg seems to achieve is to ware the user down if they aren't careful. At its worst one might be unlucky enough to be killed by toxin if they had low health, however there are plenty of counter measures to avoid such a scenario and if your health is that low in the first place chances are it was due to your shields being down and you taking standard dmg types.

If toxin was made to illogically not ignore shields, then it would have nothing to differentiate it from the other dmg types and might as well not exist.

Which would be a silly thing to do as Toxin does its job well, punishing you for not paying attention. I'm far more concerned by magnetic dmg then toxin dmg.

 

Removing Toxins shield bypassing would also mean not allowing it to work effectively against the corpus. Its arguably better then magnetic against them with their high shield, low health dynamic.

Edited October 16, 2014 by StinkyPygmy

[Eyeless]

So are you just ignoring the high end levels or what? 

[Draciusen]

Toxin damage is weird as heck.

 

I have experienced procs on my Loki that hardly did lethal damage, but have found myself instantly downed after meleeing with Oberon (With Steel Fiber and Vitality) in a crowd of Infested on wave 10 Sinai DS Defense. I didn't get grappled and smacked by anything, I just saw some green and suddenly I died instantly, even while i was standing on Hallowed Ground.

[StinkyPygmy]

So are you just ignoring the high end levels or what? 

Lvl 30-40 is roughly high end. Anything beyond lvl 40ish is beyond what the devs balance for and all dmg in general regardless of shields could be considered OP.

But for arguments sake lets say one somehow found the time in survival or Defense, when you don't get much of an opportunity to stand around and do some active testing, to consistently observe the same situation.

Do you know how much dmg goes up by? Not too much. It starts to become a threat sure, but If you are somehow hit by an osprey cloud for more then a second in survival you are probably doing something wrong. In which case your shields are irreverent in the first place as any dmg will take them out practically instantly (chargers and their "weak" claw attacks). I'm more worried about ancient healers and their inconstant buff aura which is OP sometimes at high levels and not noticeable at other times.

Edited October 16, 2014 by StinkyPygmy

[Azawarau]

What I'm saying is don't make it RNG based. 1 full second in the cloud=proc. Maybe allow the screen to flash green before then to give players warning.

I would even be okay if the time before the proc happened started at 3 seconds at level 1 and scaled until a cap of .5 seconds or so, because I think scaling like that is more beneficial than straight damage scaling or health scaling.

I dont think theres an issue with it now

 

Making it so incredibly easy to avoid or in some cases more difficult seems like an unneeded  change

 

So are you just ignoring the high end levels or what? 

[Rydian]

And for what reason exactly should they change the shield bypassing

 

Your complaint is that it does too much damage and your solutions head mor towards entirely removing shield bypass rather than reducing damage both of which i disagree with

The reason that poison does so much damage to players is because they bypass shields.  In reality they are much deadlier than the numbers you see in damage charts and the in-game codex state.

 

The second graph I posted showed what the effective damage would look like if shields took toxin attacks like they do everything else.  And in that situation, toxin attacks will scale like everything else.

 

 

 

Still, that bonus is nowhere near +200%

The effective damage dealt to the player is +200% because toxin attacks treat the target as if their shields are 0.  This is not related to any proc, shields are reduced to -100% against a toxin attack.  That's why toxin has such out-of-scale numbers.

 

The example Warframe has 500 shields and 500 health.  A pool of 1000 total.

334 damage kills them.  334 + 200% of itself is 1002, the effective pool depletion.

 

Even if the pool was different, the multiplier would be the same.

If the Warframe has 250 shields and 250 health, they'd have a pool of 500 total life.

167 damage kills them.  167 + 200% of itself is 501, the effective pool depletion.

 

If you're only looking at the lasting damage (the fact that shields are restored after the attack) and if you're only looking at the "+50%" that charts indicate, there doesn't seem to be a problem.  And that's why this imbalance has persisted since U11.

 

In reality the effective health pool depletion for Toxin is far more than the "+50%" than charts indicate because it bypasses shields.

 

when you calculate it with armor and for someone that is smart enough to use vitality against the infested.

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Armor

 

1 - Armor doesn't affect shields.

 

2 - A player's armor value reduces all health damage.  Viral and all other attacks would have their health damage reduced too.  A warframe's armor value is different than having a layer of Ferrite or Alloy armor above the health like lots of enemies do.

 

So this time let's say the example Warframe has 100 armor.

This is close to the mean (~97), and above the mode (65).

 

A - They are attacked with a Toxin attack that has a base damage of 440.  This would deal a 660 damage attack (+50% multiplier) right to health, but the armor value of 100 means that the damage dealt is reduced to 508.  Still deadly.

500 - ((440 * 1.5) / (1 + (100 / 300))) < 0

 

B - They are attacked with a Viral attack that has a base damage of 700.  500 of that hits and breaks the shield, which has no calculation for armor.  That leaves 200 damage left to attack the health pool.  Assuming once again that viral procs, the target's max and current health are reduced to 250.  The 200 damage has a +50% multiplier and so becomes a 300 damage attack, but the armor reduces that to 225 damage, leaving them alive.

500 - (((700 - 500) * 1.5) / (1 + (100 / 300))) > 0

 

So even with armor, it takes a good chunk more Viral damage to kill a player than it does Toxin damage despite both of them being listed as "+50%" effectiveness.

 

And that example assumes Viral procs again.  If Viral did not proc then even 950 Viral damage would still leave the frame with 100 armor alive whereas 440 Toxin damage will kill them anyways because Toxin bypassing shield is not a proc.

 

Also, it's irrelevant to compare it to other damage types.

This thread is "Shields are bad." and I believe that shields are bad due to them not acting the same towards all damage types regardless of the stated percent weaknesses.  The problem I'm presenting is, at it's core, that shields are treated differently by different damage types.

 

Not only because the enemies don't deal most damage types, but also because different damages are balanced differently. There's not a single shield bypassing attack any enemy does that deals too much shield bypassing damage, until you get to very high levels, which again is irrelevant because the game is not balanced there and all damage there is too much anyway.

Please read back over the previous posts in the thread, including the ones that were not quoting you specifically.  I have covered why it is like it is and that it's due to base numbers being far lower than they should be rather than the high damage multiplier being fixed.

 

 

 

Numbers only reveal half the picture and in this case seem to be irrelevant because experience and active testing tells many people that toxin is a minor nuisance at its worst and trivial all other times.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/320812-shields-are-bad/page-8#entry3649722

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/320812-shields-are-bad/page-8#entry3651499

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/320812-shields-are-bad/page-9#entry3660319

 

I have pointed out multiple times in multiple posts in the thread that the Fartsprey example was how they were when they were first released.  I have stated multiple times that they have been nerfed more than once and in multiple ways (some not even relating to their damage, such as AI changes and a bigger hitbox).

 

So unless you're testing with a time machine...

[TaylorsContraction]

I think claiming that you stood in a poison cloud for ten seconds and weren't affected is a bad example. I generally like to run missions and NOT rush them. Sure if I rush few things are ever a problem.

 

When I'm actually doing missions that involve a lot of Grineer that will spam slash procs or Infested that will spam toxin damage, you don't lose all your health instantly. But half-way through you'll find yourself with very little health (or towards the end of the mission). Certain frames can heal themselves, or others avoid damage altogether. But aside from those, typically if I take Loki into an Eris missions, I'd be losing health throughout the run and generally will get to extremely low health about half way through the mission. Sure I can invis-cheese the rest of the mission which I will typically do to survive. I don't have quick thinking so it's not a viable option to survive said damage procs nor should it be per se.

 

I'm not against slash procs or toxin damage, I'm just agreeing with OP that shields are useless. I have a Rhino with over 1k shields and sometimes my friends watch me play. They were like "wow you have over 1k shields now". I was like yeah but watch this. I stopped moving for 3 seconds and all shields were gone (in a corpus mission). Because shields aren't affected by armor, they really don't offer much except for the early game.

[Naftal]

-snip-

Try to use realistic numbers like 300 shields/740 hp or 225 shields/555 hp.

 

Then try to come up with a realistic situation. What level enemy with what attack deals that 334 poison damage? So far you are just creating imaginary situations.

 

And you are not arguing that "shields are bad" in any of your posts. You are arguing that "slash procs and poison are OP, please don't make us use hp mods, I want to use shield mods only".

Edited October 16, 2014 by Naftal

[(PSN)MrNishi]

@Rydian

You are experiencing a different Gas than I am. What I experience with Gas is an AoE Toxic DoT. This AoE Toxic DoT bypasses shields and deals poison/Toxin damage to health+armor directly. The wiki is stating the same as what I experience in game: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Gas

(Toxic Ancients do get damaged by the initial Gas hit, but receive no damage from the Gas Toxic AoE DoT. Using just toxic also deals no damage to Toxic Ancients. (Both, toxic and Gas's Toxic AoE Cloud, yield procs with a Zero damage value.)

Since Gas does not Proc more Gas and only applies an AoE Toxic DoT Cloud, I was suggesting that was similar to the Toxic cloud produced by Osprey. I know Osprey do not deal Gas damage, but the Toxic cloud is more similar to the Toxic Cloud from Gas, in my opinion. Basically Gas is just AoE Toxin DoT where Toxic-only is a single target applicant.

Ancient Disrupters are basically innate Magnetic, they are a common Infested enemy and count as non-eximus.

Magnetic is basically anti-shield and anti-energy, unless you are Rhino with Iron Skin or Valkyr in Hysteria.

For your example of 334 toxic damage killing a Warframe with 500 health without the DoT, that would only work if said WarFrame had Zero for the Armor Value. As Toxic does not dismiss Armor values, that damage would be reduced dependent on WarFrame Armor values.

Due to a high base armor stat and low shield stat, Viral is more harmful to a low level Valkyr than a Toxic Proc from an enemy. (Watching low level Valkyrs get viral proc'd by a Grineer Powerfist and then Bleed proc'd to death is amusing. To be fair Viral +Bleed on any low level WarFrame can be devastating, if one gets hit by a Grineer Powerfist and then sponges a Heavy Gunner or Eviscerator...) In the case of the Infested Disrupters removing Shields makes all High Shield low HP Warframes a handicap. Toxic damage exasperates the low HP, especially if low armor is also there. Magnetic does not affect Valkyr as badly as Mag, as Valkyr does not rely on shields for protection, although if a player relies on having energy to Life-Strike or cast an ability they can't after the Magnetic Proc.

Using your example of 334 Toxin damage having the 1.5multiplier to deal 501 damage. A Valkyr with 500 health and let's say say value does not matter, and no Steel Fiber mod so a base of 600armor. That 501 damage would be reduced by 66% or 330.66 so it would deal 170.34 damage; a Viral Proc regardless of damage value still halves Valkyr's health from 500 to 250. 250 is more damage than 170.34. But that is showing where a different WarFrame has better protection to that single Toxic damage but is affected by Viral in a worse way. If it is a max rank Steel fiber with 80% damage mitigation to health it is even more biased towards Viral. Trinity's 99.9% Damage mitigation gets hit harder by a Viral Proc because it halves the numerical health value. Even with 99.99% Damage reduction 500 health would still be lowered to 250 from a Viral Proc.

-Valkyr with the max Steel Fiber would have around 80% Damage mitigation which would make that 501 damage only appear as 100.2 damage which is far less than a Viral Proc halving the 500 health to 250.

This thread seems to making Toxic a large issue but they don't care about Viral effects. The thread is heavily biased towards Toxic damage and a lesser extent Slash's bleed Proc.

Magnetic is even listed as a argument for why Shields are bad when Magnetic Proc (Ancient Disrupters) remove Shields regardless of Shield values. Thread is titled Shields are bad but it just appears to be a Toxic QQ thread.

Hijack missions are heavily biased towards large shields. Infested is biased towards high health+armor and more importantly high mobility. Aside from the few Shield bypassing procs, Shields do a better job protecting Health than Armor does.

Edited October 16, 2014 by (PS4)MrNishi

[StinkyPygmy]

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/320812-shields-are-bad/page-8#entry3649722

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/320812-shields-are-bad/page-8#entry3651499

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/320812-shields-are-bad/page-9#entry3660319

 

I have pointed out multiple times in multiple posts in the thread that the Fartsprey example was how they were when they were first released.  I have stated multiple times that they have been nerfed more than once and in multiple ways (some not even relating to their damage, such as AI changes and a bigger hitbox).

 

So unless you're testing with a time machine...

Well I never thought the Fart spray dmg on release was OP so theres that.

Regardless, the old dmg numbers have nothing to do with now. The fact you keep bringing them up is confusing as how OP they may or may not have been in the past has literally nothing to do with now.

Rollers used to be OP with their infinite stun lock and dmg, but they can't spam stuns like they used to so why would I bring it up in a discussion about rollers being OP now?

 

Its just not relevant to the discussion.

Edited October 16, 2014 by StinkyPygmy

[Rydian]

Try to use realistic numbers like 300 shields/740 hp or 225 shields/555 hp.

Why do you say those numbers are more realistic than the even split that I showed is the natural trend of frame stats?

 

Is it because shields are inferior? :P

 

Then try to come up with a realistic situation. What level enemy with what attack deals that 334 poison damage? So far you are just creating imaginary situations.

... seriously?

 

You know, there's this very popular mission called "Orokin Derelict Defense", oftentimes called "ODD" for short...

 

This is a high-level endless defense mission comprised of infested.  In addition there's Orokin Derelict Survival and Dark Sector endless survival and defense missions (one of each on every planet/moon), all of which spawn infested, and all of which can scale much higher than the starting level of any non-event mission.

 

Also, Dark Sector conflict missions versus other players.

 

If you have not done endless missions until the enemies scale to level 45 and above, I suggest you check them out.  The high damage numbers in those missions make the percentage differences into life versus death depending on the elemental defenses pretty quickly.

 

Just because you don't encounter a situation on a regular basis does not mean that other people do not or that these situations should be discounted.

 

And you are not arguing that "shields are bad" in any of your posts. You are arguing that "slash procs and poison are OP

The listed damage bonus that Toxin gets is on-par with other damage bonuses.  If Toxin's damage bonus was reduced from +50% or +25% or even if Toxin damage was made neutral, it would still have a deadlier effect than other damage types because it bypasses shields.

 

please don't make us use hp mods, I want to use shield mods only".

I would appreciate it if you would not put words in my mouth.

 

Every single example attack I've done in this thread assumed that health and shields are the same.  All of them assume the same health and shield values, none of them assume that the frame has more shields than health.

 

 

 

 

@Rydian

You are experiencing a different Gas than I am. What I experience with Gas is an AoE Toxic DoT. This AoE Toxic DoT bypasses shields and deals poison/Toxin damage to health+armor directly. The wiki is stating the same as what I experience in game:

You stated that Fartspreys use Gas attacks, and that statement what I was responding to.

 

Since Gas does not Proc more Gas and only applies an AoE Toxic DoT Cloud, I was suggesting that was similar to the Toxic cloud produced by Osprey. I know Osprey do not deal Gas damage, but the Toxic cloud is more similar to the Toxic Cloud from Gas, in my opinion. Basically Gas is just AoE Toxin DoT where Toxic-only is a single target applicant.

Gas is a damage type that's separate from Toxin.  Gas can proc and create a separate attack object that takes the form of a cloud that deals Toxin damage and can thus trigger a DoT, but they are not linked beyond that.

 

Ancient Disrupters are basically innate Magnetic, they are a common Infested enemy and count as non-eximus.

Magnetic is basically anti-shield and anti-energy, unless you are Rhino with Iron Skin or Valkyr in Hysteria.

No enemy actually deals magnetic damage, though, which is why I only mention that damage type when I'm trying to be thorough.

 

The Ancient Disruptor can proc the status effect, but not actually cause Magnetic damage.  In addition their aura towards other infested does not grant magnetic damage, it grants Warframe power resistance and a special property allowing their attack damage on you to come out of your energy (not the Magnetic proc).

 

As far as Magnetic damage having the highest listed damage bonuses... that's versus shields, and like I mentioned before a broken shield pool does not kill a frame, a broken health pool does.

 

For your example of 334 toxic damage killing a Warframe with 500 health without the DoT, that would only work if said WarFrame had Zero for the Armor Value. As Toxic does not dismiss Armor values, that damage would be reduced dependent on WarFrame Armor values.

 

[...]

Somebody else pointed out that armor should be taken into account as well, so I did a second example with some armor.

 

Valkyr is definitely the outlier.  Not only is her armor over 3x Frost and Rhino, but her shield/health split is very tilted as well and she gains so much from focusing on health that not many people run her with buffed shields.  Definitely, in her case, a Viral proc is deadlier than a Toxin non-proc.

 

... however that relies on the proc, and as mentioned is an outlier.  "1/26 frames can take this attack" doesn't mean the attack isn't OP.  ... though speaking of which, I'm glad nobody mentioned Rhino's Iron Skin as a cop-out, we're at least keeping that much dignity.

 

Thread is titled Shields are bad but it just appears to be a Toxic QQ thread.

That's mainly me in the last few pages trying to point out game mechanics people don't often take into consideration.  This thread started out with other issues but other posters have dropped out over time partially due to the size of the thread.

 

 

 

 

 

Well I never thought the Fart spray dmg on release was OP so theres that.

I linked to two threads with people showing that they were getting killed from full by just the proc.

 

Also, you may not have come into it right away.  A lot of their balancing was done within ~5 days or so of their release... because it was so deadly it made many missions unbeatable.

 

Regardless, the old dmg numbers have nothing to do with now. The fact you keep bringing them up is confusing as how OP they may or may not have been in the past has literally nothing to do with now.

Rollers used to be OP with their infinite stun lock and dmg, but they can't spam stuns like they used to so why would I bring it up in a discussion about rollers being OP now?

 

Its just not relevant to the discussion.

If the discussion was about stunlocking being OP as a mechanic and wanting to avoid it, then in that case the rollers would be a good historical example to show that it has happened in the past and was unliked.

[Naftal]

Why do you say those numbers are more realistic than the even split that I showed is the natural trend of frame stats?

 

Is it because shields are inferior? :P

Because why would you mod for shields against the infested?

 

You know, there's this very popular mission called "Orokin Derelict Defense", oftentimes called "ODD" for short...

 

This is a high-level endless defense mission comprised of infested.  In addition there's Orokin Derelict Survival and Dark Sector endless survival and defense missions (one of each on every planet/moon), all of which spawn infested, and all of which can scale much higher than the starting level of any non-event mission.

 

Also, Dark Sector conflict missions versus other players.

This still doesn't explain at what level and what enemy deals that amount of poison damage you are talking about that one shots you.

 

The listed damage bonus that Toxin gets is on-par with other damage bonuses.  If Toxin's damage bonus was reduced from +50% or +25% or even if Toxin damage was made neutral, it would still have a deadlier effect than other damage types because it bypasses shields.

These bonuses are irrelevant because different damage types are balanced differently. It's the actual damage you take that matters. Sure, taking 600 viral damage isn't as bad as taking 500 poison damage. But that's imaginary situation. You can't straight compare two different damage types.

 

Start giving real examples and stop coming up with imaginary situations.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

I dont think theres an issue with it now

 

Making it so incredibly easy to avoid or in some cases more difficult seems like an unneeded  change

 

The debate this has caused, coupled with one of the recent Hot Topic results suggests otherwise to me.

 

I'm not sure if you understood my proposal: If you go into the cloud you take damage normally, for .5-1 full second (again, I don't know where the numbers would be best. There should be time to avoid the attack, but not a lot). After that, you start taking high Poison or Gas damage direct to health until you leave the cloud.

 

If you did understand it (and I didn't do a great job of explaining it) then it shouldn't either be easy to avoid or more difficult. It should only be less random.

Edited October 16, 2014 by (PS4)WiiConquered

[Azawarau]

1- 3 second is incredibly easy to avoid

 

If youre a melee frame its punishing

 

Itll have these issues shining out

[(PSN)MrNishi]

@ Rydian

Gas has a 100% Proc for the AoE Toxin Cloud according to wiki. So if Gas does Proc - the AoE Toxin cloud will be present.

As for Ancient Disrupters in regards to magnetic damage, are you saying the wiki is incorrect? (http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Ancient_Disrupter)

- A heavy melee unit, the Ancient Disrupter stands out for the ability to immediately drain energy of a Warframe, simultaneously making the player's HUD temporarily suffer from noise and distortion, as if the Warframe's systems have been scrambled, while dealing moderate Magnetic damage. Players will be unable to earn energy from energy orbs during the scramble effect.

Edited October 17, 2014 by (PS4)MrNishi

[saltshaker42]

I like my shields. I don't feel like they're fine. I agree with OP.

 

Maybe while shields are fully charged, health will regen relatively moderately up to some % - like 25%, or 50%. Those are good percentages to use for things like this.

[StinkyPygmy]

... seriously?

 

You know, there's this very popular mission called "Orokin Derelict Defense", oftentimes called "ODD" for short...

 

This is a high-level endless defense mission comprised of infested.  In addition there's Orokin Derelict Survival and Dark Sector endless survival and defense missions (one of each on every planet/moon), all of which spawn infested, and all of which can scale much higher than the starting level of any non-event mission.

 

Also, Dark Sector conflict missions versus other players.

 

If you have not done endless missions until the enemies scale to level 45 and above, I suggest you check them out.  The high damage numbers in those missions make the percentage differences into life versus death depending on the elemental defenses pretty quickly.

 

Just because you don't encounter a situation on a regular basis does not mean that other people do not or that these situations should be discounted.

 

 

Ok firstly, you have got to stop patronizing everyone. We know how poison works, we know about ODD and I can safely guess those involved in the discussion have just as much experience, if not more, at talking on high level infested.

 

I've played ODD past wave 60 with banshee (300 HP/shields) and amazingly toxin dmg was a threat, but simple enough to avoid and not capable of 1 shotting me. I've also played long survivals/defenses in DS and I had the same experience as above.

The point being, once you start bringing lvl 50+ infested or any faction really, in to the mix the point become null and void as the devs have stated themselves they do not balance for that. Terrible dmg values at those levels are a problem of endless scaling and is a different issue entirely. You're on your own once you hit that threshold. 

As I said before, at those levels a charger is capable of on shotting you with full shields so not only is toxin dmg the least of your problems but it amazingly enough still less of a threat then regular dmg types.

 

DS is another issue entirely and while I haven't played a whole lot of DS conflicts I can say toxin dmg was still laughable from other players. That depends on their mod set up of course. 

 

More impotently though: In no way should the mechanics of PvP effect PvE!

If Toxin dmg is OP in DSC then it should be dealt with separately to the rest of the game. You do not start fiddling with mechanics for the entire game because they negatively effect the PvP aspect. You isolate the issue and deal with it in PvP alone.

 

 

 

.

I linked to two threads with people showing that they were getting killed from full by just the proc.

 

Also, you may not have come into it right away.  A lot of their balancing was done within ~5 days or so of their release... because it was so deadly it made many missions unbeatable.

 

If the discussion was about stunlocking being OP as a mechanic and wanting to avoid it, then in that case the rollers would be a good historical example to show that it has happened in the past and was unliked.

I experienced fartsprays right from release toxin procs and all, so once again, please stop with the patronising tone. 

I understand why their dmg was nerfed initially but I also didn't mind their initial dmg because it actually gave me a reason to avoid it. Now I don't even notice it regardless of frame unless I'm low HP in which case all I have to do is not walk into the cloud.

 

On the roller example: It would be a good example if there was another enemy capable of stun locking players like rollers did. But there isn't, so the point is moot. Its only of historical relevance is the mistake has not been learned from and a similar issue has arisen.

Just like with ospreys, how much dmg they did in the past has no relevance to how much they do now. We are debating whether or not toxin dmg bypassing shields is OP (and by extension Ospreys) as it is today.

Ospreys being OP in the past is a non issue because they are no longer OP. Its not a supporting argument but merely something to take into consideration. Which by now you can bet it has.

Edited October 17, 2014 by StinkyPygmy

[fatpig84]

If you hate toxic because it is bypasses shield in PvP then deal with it separately.

Don't break something in PvE because you hate it in PvP

 

In any case, almost everyone in PvP uses Magnetic + Toxin as a mag proc will break QTR completely.

And toxic affects both ferrite and flesh as well and of course bypassing shields.

In essence, this is perfectly optimized for fighting tenno.

 

If you hate it, don't play it (aka PvP), but don't expect everyone else to share the same ideals as you.

[Rydian]

Because why would you mod for shields against the infested?

I knowwwwww.  That's the poiiiiint.  Shields are worse than heallllth.

 

This still doesn't explain at what level and what enemy deals that amount of poison damage you are talking about that one shots you.

I just named various missions it happens in, and at what level one-hit kills can happen reliably in the post you quoted.

 

But here, I jumped into the currently-ongoing Phorid mission to grab this clip real quick.

 

 

 

Both attacks are a Charger dealing 234 damage with one claw swipe, at level 17.  The damage is done to shields which don't take armor into account, and Slash damage is neutral to shields so we can tell that the base damage of the attack was 234.  Higher-level Chargers reach and surpass the example 334 damage easily.

 

(The reason it's two clips is to show the damage was consistent, and the second one doesn't have the name label while the first one does and that's important to show the levels involved.)

 

These bonuses are irrelevant because different damage types are balanced differently.

That's the idea, and for most damage types it works.  However for Toxin, it's much deadlier than the Damage 2.0 weakness numbers indicate.  That's why, in the charts I made a page back, all the other damage types are close to each other while Toxin is the outlier.

 

 

 

@ Rydian

Gas has a 100% Proc for the AoE Toxin Cloud according to wiki. So if Gas does Proc - the AoE Toxin cloud will be present.

Yeah, but the Gas attacks still don't go through shields, and Fartspreys don't attack with Gas elemental damage, they create a Toxin cloud directly.

 

As for Ancient Disrupters in regards to magnetic damage, are you saying the wiki is incorrect? (http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Ancient_Disrupter)

- A heavy melee unit, the Ancient Disrupter stands out for the ability to immediately drain energy of a Warframe, simultaneously making the player's HUD temporarily suffer from noise and distortion, as if the Warframe's systems have been scrambled, while dealing moderate Magnetic damage. Players will be unable to earn energy from energy orbs during the scramble effect.

Actually, yes that sentence is a little misleading and needs to be fixed to be more technically correct.

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Disrupt

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_2.0/Magnetic_Damage

 

Damage and a "proc" are separate things.  A proc (Programmed Random OCcurrence) in Warframe refers to the inflicting of a status effect via an attack, whereas damage is the numbers that are taken away from health/armor when things are hit with attacks, regardless of status effects.

 

Ancient Disruptors can inflict Magnetic's status effect on you (scrambling your HUD, lowering max shields by 75%, draining energy) but they do not do it via inflicting Magnetic damage, the damage done to your shields when disrupted is actually part of the Magnetic proc's status effect (it's like Viral for shields).  Their normal attacks do not deal magnetic damage, they use one arm for smacking and the other for a 100% chance (on-hit of course) of the Magnetic proc.

(And yes, Magnetic's proc cut to shields is 75%, which is worse than Viral's hit to health on proc.  But like I keep pointing out, 0 shield doesn't kill a Warframe, 0 health does.)

 

I've gone and edited that sentence on the wiki to clarify that the shield loss is a result of the Disruption/Magnetic status effect and not damage inflicted by the attack.

 

 

Ok firstly, you have got to stop patronizing everyone.

That was pretty snarky of me... but hey, when people are saying the Warframe equivalent of "Pokemon don't get a high enough level to /evolve/, that's just theoretical, stop making up situations that don't happen" it's pretty hard not to respond with something like "Hey newbie, try taking more than 4 steps outside of Palette town". :P

 

We know how poison works, we know about ODD and I can safely guess those involved in the discussion have just as much experience, if not more, at talking on high level infested.

The person I quoted said that being dealt 334 Toxin damage in a single attack was an unrealistic situation.  That shows that no, they do not have as much experience as you.

 

Chargers being listed as having "weak claw attacks" in their hover description is an understatement people tend to find out the hard way.

 

I've played ODD past wave 60 with banshee (300 HP/shields) and amazingly toxin dmg was a threat, but simple enough to avoid and not capable of 1 shotting me. I've also played long survivals/defenses in DS and I had the same experience as above.

The point being, once you start bringing lvl 50+ infested or any faction really, in to the mix the point become null and void as the devs have stated themselves they do not balance for that. Terrible dmg values at those levels are a problem of endless scaling and is a different issue entirely. You're on your own once you hit that threshold.

Well, level 50-55 is still within the balanced range.  Survival rewards get their third Rotation C pool showing up at minute 60, for example... though that's about the viable limit people manage without very specific setups and groupings that allow them to avoid any damage at all.

 

What the devs don't balance for is stuff where any frame will die in one hit to any attack regardless of element, where enemies are dealing like 1600-2000 damage a hit and overwhelm damn near everything.  These are the situations where people would do stuff like use use Trinity's invulnerability-granting Blessing to go much further than they'd normally be able to, what the devs don't want people doing is getting to level 150+ infested.  (I've seen screenshots of level 8K+ and 9K+ enemies).

 

Anyways to get back on the subject...

 

Chargers given Toxin damage from a nearby Toxic Ancient and being able to do 334 damage pet hit comes well before that type of scaling.  Check out the gifs I put higher up in this post of Chargers doing 200+ in non-endless star chart missions.

 

DS is another issue entirely and while I haven't played a whole lot of DS conflicts I can say toxin dmg was still laughable from other players. That depends on their mod set up of course. 

 

More impotently though: In no way should the mechanics of PvP effect PvE!

If Toxin dmg is OP in DSC then it should be dealt with separately to the rest of the game. You do not start fiddling with mechanics for the entire game because they negatively effect the PvP aspect. You isolate the issue and deal with it in PvP alone.

As far as I know I only mentioned PvP once, in one response, as one of the locations where Toxin damage can easily be experienced.  So if this is an attempt to kill the whole conversation... nope, that's not what's going on here.

 

I experienced fartsprays right from release toxin procs and all, so once again, please stop with the patronising tone. 

I understand why their dmg was nerfed initially but I also didn't mind their initial dmg because it actually gave me a reason to avoid it. Now I don't even notice it regardless of frame unless I'm low HP in which case all I have to do is not walk into the cloud.

Being punished by some damage for staying in an AoE area is fine, it's how they work right now.  If the punishment is damage higher than your entire life pool for 23/25 frames (Rhino and Rhino Prime can take it because of Iron Skin, Nyx Prime did not exist), then that's going overboard and there's a problem.

 

On the roller example: It would be a good example if there was another enemy capable of stun locking players like rollers did. But there isn't, so the point is moot. Its only of historical relevance is the mistake has not been learned from and a similar issue has arisen.

That is the theoretical situation in which you'd be bringing them up as a historical example.

 

 

 

EDIT: Fixed a stupid grammar error I missed while proofreading.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Rydian