How Would You Balance Pvp?

[Rakshal]

THIS POST IS NOT FOR MAKING SMART @$$ COMMENTS LIKE, "I would balance it by removing it." OR ELSE I WILL HAVE IT REQUESTED TO BE REMOVED. (I have a sneaking suspicion this post is gonna end poorly)

Also note that I will probably disagree with some people on certain ideas, but let us try and keep this as civil as possible.

 

As said, how would you balance PvP in Warframe. The reason I ask this is because I like playing conclave and I'm interested in other peoples opinions (as long as they are constructive). I am also making this post because I wanted solar rail PvP to be fun but due to lack of balance and odd game play choices (not a fan of the MOBA style they chose) I just find it not very fun.

 

Might as well put how I would balance it.

 

Conclave Balancing Ideas

 

Bleed out: It would be nice to just remove bleed out from conclave since it makes rounds unnecessarily long. If not that then make bleed out how it was before update fourteen.

 

Map design: Okay this isn't really balancing but I still think it is worth noting. The only good map is Europa's conclave arena because it has lots of obstacles to parkour off of (crates, high flat walls, pillars, ect.) and because there are a few places to camp. All of the maps should function like that because it is meant to be fast paced.

 

Abilities: This is more of a problem with what mods allow you to do. I think removing ability based mods (Fleeting Expertise, Blind Rage, Steamline, ect.) would help a bit. Now this wouldn't balance out some abilities but I would help a lot.

 

Solar Rail Conflict Balancing Ideas

 

Starting without the defenders: I think there should be a wait list so a game doesn't start without the defenders (I probably explained that oddly).

 

Spawn camping: This is a problem mostly for the attackers but it also happens to the defenders. I think the attackers should have random spawn points in the first area to prevent spawn camping early in the game. The defenders should also be able to shoot out of the shield but the campers can't shoot into it (or use an ability to bypass it).

 

Bleed out: I think the attacker's bleed out should function like PvE because those lives are precious, and the defenders should just die and re-spawn because reviving isn't very useful for them.

 

Map design: I really don't like the map design in solar rail conflicts because they don't have enough cover and places to parkour off of. I think the map should again be similar to Europa's conclave arena.

 

Abilities: Same as balancing conclave except make energy a lot more scarce like in conclave.

 

Leveling: I am not a fan of this and I wouldn't be sad if it went away.

 

Balancing I'm Not To Sure How Exactly It Would Be Balanced

 

Damage: This is tricky, and I'm not sure how you would balance out a damage system as complex as Warframe's. Now the damage system we had before update 14 was better than what we have now (a damage nerf to everything, come on DE, that was just lazy) but it certainly wasn't perfect. Now should we keep it the same as PvE or change the stats up a bit so that every weapon is useful in PvP?

 

Conclave rating: Oh boy, is that a mess. Some of the most useful, overpowered, and terrible mods, weapons, frames, and abilities have a hilariously high and low conclave rating. Again, I know some things should have a much lower or much higher conclave rating but I'm not sure by how much.

 

Balancing Ideas Others Have Had That I'm Not A Fan Of

 

Load outs: Part of the fun of Warframe is that you have such a deep level of customization, I would hate to loose that.

 

I might add more to this later. Please, leave some ideas. I would love to see some creative ways of balancing that people come up with.

 

Edit 1: Removed the idea of attackers getting a shield and added random spawn points for the attackers (thanks Bejaaamin for that idea ^.^)in the section spawn camping under Solar Rail Conflict Balancing Ideas.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Rakshal

[izzatuw]

I'd say conclaves should just have a set of frames and weapons.

To add on to your ability mod suggestion, maybe the abilities will cost more each time it's casted. 50 to 60 to 70 etc

Edited October 7, 2014 by izzatuw

[-FrostByte-]

my idea of balance is

 

every frame has 500 hp and 500 shields (skills i dont even know how to begin)

 

every weapon already comes preset with scaling to your weapons level (to have various conclave ratings)

 

so you would still have to grind the levels

Edited October 6, 2014 by .DoG.

[BrotherIcarus]

I doubt you will find anything more than the "Level playing field balance" now there is nothing wrong with that but it is completely uncreative and can grow very stale. Most gamers know very little about balance past the very basics and the basics don't make for the most interesting game.  

Edited October 7, 2014 by BrotherIcarus

[HalotroopermanX7]

How I'd balance it... 

 

Perhaps something like a skill tree upgrade thing for when the players first enter a conclave/dark sector fight... as usual a maximum/minimum conclave level is set to ensure that it will be (somewhat, it is quite difficult to balance) fair to all players... what I'm trying to say is some stats in a weapon will be reduced and other will be boosted with the skill tree thingy... or at least decreased in general.

 

With that being said... there will be a skill tree thingy for the players to choose from when they enter.. (there will be 1 minute for them to choose for each weapon and a minute and thirty seconds for their Warframe... the skill tree will be simple and balanced, each branch increases one stat when you upgrade one and will decrease other types in response to the other stat... I still don't know how to explain it thoroughly...)

 

So in general I believe that adding a balanced skill tree when players spawn will greatly balance many things... (If a player has mods equipped on their equipment then that won't matter... those mods will be rendered useless... for the skill tree will be the balancer)

 

I apologize if what I wrote sounds weird and clunky (don't forgot non-fluid!) but If you did understand... it'd be nice if you could somehow translate it for other players... 

[vaugahn]

Balance weapon damage across types. All rifles do similar damage, all snipers do similar damage, and so on. These damage values should be balanced against average frame health, so that all weapons have an average TTK. Not exactly creative, but it works.

 

CR needs to be totally rebalanced, for both PvP and PvE.

Edited October 6, 2014 by vaugahn

[Mesyra]

I would balance PVP by removing staggers from any weapon attacks, so ground slam, fast melee attacks, anything like that.

 

I would remove all mods from all weapons. 

 

I would remove all mods from all frames. except ability mods.

 

I would normalise the HP and SP of all frames

 

I would normalise the speed of all frames.

 

I would normalise the DPS of weapons for a .5-.75 second TTK on weapons. higher teir weapons closer to .5, lower closer to .75.

 

it is not hard to balance for PVP in warframe, but if we leave mods in the game for PVP, it will never balance. 

[Aeiroth]

All items set to "Unranked".

 

Warframe is set to rank 30 with all abilities available, but at rank 1. No mod cards used in-game. No "Leveling up" in-game. Same for Sentinels/Kubrows.

Edited October 7, 2014 by (PS4)IIIDevoidIII
Cleaning

[Rakshal]

I doubt you will find anything more than the "Level playing field balance" now there is nothing wrong with that but it is completely uncreative and can grow very stale. Most gamers now very little about balance past the very basics and the basics don't make for the most interesting game.  

I guess this is true to some extent.

[Vyrn]

As you said, I think removing mods that affect abilities would be a good option. Once you get Pull/Shuriken/etc to only cost 6.25 energy, you can spam away and kill their whole team like nothing. That would also adjust a lot of what people considered broken abilities, such as Bastille, Invisibility, and Hysteria and make them much more bearable to face.

 

That alone would make a huge difference.

 

Aside from that, adjust a few more weapons and procs. I know Bleed procs aren't nearly as scary as they were at first. I used to bring Miter (when I actually did PvP, that is), and a charge shot would have a 50% chance to kill someone. Now, if it does get that Bleed proc, it deals significantly reduced damage and only ticks 1 or 2 times. While being a fair adjustment, I think some other things like that need to be tweaked. Mods would need to be tweaked, too, so that you can't just instantly oneshot people (haven't tried in a while, so dunno if changed). Likewise, damage types such as Toxin are dangerously powerful, so maybe alter it to either all hit shield or only slightly bypass it (the rest would just damage the shield). The latter suggestion would maintain its unique trait while still balancing it partially, so I think that would be the better option.

Maybe shorten or remove stagger from melee, too. As it is, someone can barely bop you with any melee weapon, and you can get stagger locked. While that makes melee a lot more threatening, it also just makes it feel cheap and unfair.

 

However, frames should not all have the same speed or health/shield/armor (a very common suggestion). While it does give certain frames an edge in combat, it's also part of what makes them unique, and it should factor in to how you plan on playing. That's not to say it should remain exactly the same, but it should by no means be removed entirely. Rhino being as fast as Loki and Loki being as tanky as Valkyr would be outright dumb, in my opinion. Like I said, though, I am not opposed to some value tweaking so that certain frames aren't completely outshined by others.

Also, as I did mention in my post, I don't do much PvP at all, so I don't know the current state of things. I also understand my post was very vague at points ("tweak" and "adjust" don't give precise values), but I am not all too familiar with how many weapons and frames feel in PvP. Those calculations and decisions I'd leave to people who have more experience there than I.

[Khawz]

Too much warframes, weapons and mods to balance, just make a set of a few balanced loadouts and replace warframes abilities with some unique utility abilities just for pvp, we could also see more fun modes. I find the conclave duels pretty boring, ds would be cool with loadouts, right now its just broken.

[RIOT]

all mods do not affect warframes / weapons.
all weapon DPS is the same across the board.
coptering effect removed.

 

boom even playing ground for everyone.

[Rakshal]

I would balance PVP by removing staggers from any weapon attacks, so ground slam, fast melee attacks, anything like that.

 

I would remove all mods from all weapons. 

 

I would remove all mods from all frames. except ability mods.

 

I would normalise the HP and SP of all frames

 

I would normalise the speed of all frames.

 

I would normalise the DPS of weapons for a .5-.75 second TTK on weapons. higher teir weapons closer to .5, lower closer to .75.

 

it is not hard to balance for PVP in warframe, but if we leave mods in the game for PVP, it will never balance. 

In my opinion, normalizing everything is false balance and makes games boring.

[Arabaxus]

No levels or any of that crap, make it an arena shooter.

 

Everyone gets the same body/Warframe with no abilities. Slide attacks are also disabled.

 

You choose from:

 

Primaries:

Karak

Hek

Soma

Vectis

Latron

Cernos

 

Secondaries:

Vasto

Brakk

Pyrana

Furis

 

Melee:

Nikana

Dakra Prime

Furax

 

There are no perks or anything. All damage is normalized. No turrets for defenders, and it becomes a simple game of Domination, where you try to control points, sort of like Interception but with PvP.

 

That way it's actually fair and people aren't cheesed by crap like Shurikens or Smoke Screen or just the fact some players have better gear.

 

 

I would balance PVP by removing staggers from any weapon attacks, so ground slam, fast melee attacks, anything like that.

 

I would remove all mods from all weapons. 

 

I would remove all mods from all frames. except ability mods.

 

I would normalise the HP and SP of all frames

 

I would normalise the speed of all frames.

 

I would normalise the DPS of weapons for a .5-.75 second TTK on weapons. higher teir weapons closer to .5, lower closer to .75.

 

it is not hard to balance for PVP in warframe, but if we leave mods in the game for PVP, it will never balance. 

In my opinion, normalizing everything is false balance and makes games boring.

 

Except that's the only way PvP is an actual measure of skill and not just whoever has better gear getting a massive advantage.

 

It's similar to the shortfall of Destiny. Supers and Abilities are cool in PvE, but Warlocks in general are just so broken in PvP because of crap like supers, much like Warframe abilities, but weapons for the most part are more or less normalized.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Arabaxus

[Rakshal]

all mods do not affect warframes / weapons.

all weapon DPS is the same across the board.

coptering effect removed.

 

boom even playing ground for everyone.

Not sure if you are sarcastic or serious, but I'll respond like you are serious. If DE did that then why would I use the Vectis over the Grakata, the Grakata is full auto while the Vectis is single shot.

[Rakshal]

As you said, I think removing mods that affect abilities would be a good option. Once you get Pull/Shuriken/etc to only cost 6.25 energy, you can spam away and kill their whole team like nothing. That would also adjust a lot of what people considered broken abilities, such as Bastille, Invisibility, and Hysteria and make them much more bearable to face.

 

That alone would make a huge difference.

 

Aside from that, adjust a few more weapons and procs. I know Bleed procs aren't nearly as scary as they were at first. I used to bring Miter (when I actually did PvP, that is), and a charge shot would have a 50% chance to kill someone. Now, if it does get that Bleed proc, it deals significantly reduced damage and only ticks 1 or 2 times. While being a fair adjustment, I think some other things like that need to be tweaked. Mods would need to be tweaked, too, so that you can't just instantly oneshot people (haven't tried in a while, so dunno if changed). Likewise, damage types such as Toxin are dangerously powerful, so maybe alter it to either all hit shield or only slightly bypass it (the rest would just damage the shield). The latter suggestion would maintain its unique trait while still balancing it partially, so I think that would be the better option.

Maybe shorten or remove stagger from melee, too. As it is, someone can barely bop you with any melee weapon, and you can get stagger locked. While that makes melee a lot more threatening, it also just makes it feel cheap and unfair.

 

However, frames should not all have the same speed or health/shield/armor (a very common suggestion). While it does give certain frames an edge in combat, it's also part of what makes them unique, and it should factor in to how you plan on playing. That's not to say it should remain exactly the same, but it should by no means be removed entirely. Rhino being as fast as Loki and Loki being as tanky as Valkyr would be outright dumb, in my opinion. Like I said, though, I am not opposed to some value tweaking so that certain frames aren't completely outshined by others.

Also, as I did mention in my post, I don't do much PvP at all, so I don't know the current state of things. I also understand my post was very vague at points ("tweak" and "adjust" don't give precise values), but I am not all too familiar with how many weapons and frames feel in PvP. Those calculations and decisions I'd leave to people who have more experience there than I.

Very well thought out post! ^.^ I hope to see more like this.

[xFayt]

Remove the scaling from mods, take elemental damage out of the picture and leave the procs in.  Reduce maximum ammo to roughly 25%, force players to kill each other for ammo, make ammo pick-up a single thing (ie, if one person picks it up, no other person can.)  Remove the auto-aim aspect in many abilities.  Reduce AoE abilities' damage to roughly 40-50%.  Have the dodge be immune to CC (to avoid pull or smoke screen abuse.)  Make the 4th ability the only ability the dodge can't be immune to (crush, rhino stomp, etc etc.)  Force Bladestorm to require a line of sight to all targets (LoS from original position.)

 

I can name a lot more, but these are just a few.

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

Moved to a more appropriate section.

[Rakshal]

Moved to a more appropriate section.

Sorry, didn't know whether to put it in PvP feedback or general discussion since I'm asking for opinions but am also give feedback.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Rakshal

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

Sorry, didn't know whether to put it in PvP feedback or general discussion since I'm asking for opinions but am also give feedback.

 

Missed it before anyhow. PvP Feedback as players are giving opinions on how PvP should be balanced further down the road/feedback.

[Mesyra]

 

I would balance PVP by removing staggers from any weapon attacks, so ground slam, fast melee attacks, anything like that.

 

I would remove all mods from all weapons. 

 

I would remove all mods from all frames. except ability mods.

 

I would normalise the HP and SP of all frames

 

I would normalise the speed of all frames.

 

I would normalise the DPS of weapons for a .5-.75 second TTK on weapons. higher teir weapons closer to .5, lower closer to .75.

 

it is not hard to balance for PVP in warframe, but if we leave mods in the game for PVP, it will never balance. 

In my opinion, normalizing everything is false balance and makes games boring.

 

its PVP, there is not much wiggle room for it if you want it to be balanced, look at BF3/BF4/COD/Destiny(dont kill me please I dont even play it)/Titanfall/Planetside 2. all these games are focused on PVP and have average TTks of anywhere from .3 to 1.25 seconds. you cant balance with imbalance in a game like warframe where it isnt 3x Player factions VS each other. (planetside 2) and you can balance around physical gun RPM/S with damage (BF3/4)

[Rakshal]

 

 

I would balance PVP by removing staggers from any weapon attacks, so ground slam, fast melee attacks, anything like that.

 

I would remove all mods from all weapons. 

 

I would remove all mods from all frames. except ability mods.

 

I would normalise the HP and SP of all frames

 

I would normalise the speed of all frames.

 

I would normalise the DPS of weapons for a .5-.75 second TTK on weapons. higher teir weapons closer to .5, lower closer to .75.

 

it is not hard to balance for PVP in warframe, but if we leave mods in the game for PVP, it will never balance. 

In my opinion, normalizing everything is false balance and makes games boring.

 

its PVP, there is not much wiggle room for it if you want it to be balanced, look at BF3/BF4/COD/Destiny(dont kill me please I dont even play it)/Titanfall/Planetside 2. all these games are focused on PVP and have average TTks of anywhere from .3 to 1.25 seconds. you cant balance with imbalance in a game like warframe where it isnt 3x Player factions VS each other. (planetside 2) and you can balance around physical gun RPM/S with damage (BF3/4)

 

These games suffer from every weapon feeling the same. Also Destiny is balanced around PvE and PvP, not PvP exclusively.

[Pham.Nuwen]

Not all these ideas will work together, some will. Just random thoughts that came into mind throughout the day.

 

Multiple Spawn Point/No Spawn Points

It just seems so ridiculous that Tenno would attack at only one point. Especially because they are attacking from space and have a near infinitude of directions to attack from. So why just that one spot? Why not allow a top down map view prior to spawn allowing the attacking Tenno to choose where to attack from, allowing for random error to occur throwing said Tenno off by a few meters from his chosen spawn point.

Allow the defenders to be able to see the attacking Tenno only as they pass through the shield barrier, allowing some sniping, but still eliminating spawn-camping. This would of course be applied to support crew etc.

 

In the very least double the size of that first area and have a second spawn point.

 

 

More Map Customization Options

Allow tacticians/warlords more control of the layout of their solar rails, instead of just moving a turret around. I dunno, maybe add a couple different tile options, defensive barriers etc., stuff they can place where they want. It is a defensive position, they have the upper hand. Will also help to spice up the repetitiveness of the current layouts.

 

 

Battlepay

If you depend on PvP conflicts for cash, then you're in a sad state of affairs to begin with. And besides, not much is being handed out now that the "mega-alliance" controls all the sectors. Something more is needed for the rest of us. Bring back the rare mod drops like Berserker and Decisive Judgement? Maybe hand out some rare resources? Like all the gallium and orokin cells that are been taxed. Maybe some affinity? Something other than a few space-bucks.

 

Or best yet, allow battlepay to be given only to members of the alliance defending or attacking the rail. That would be the ultimate PvP, not who is the best player, but who has the better alliance. And if you want the support of the populace outside your alliance, than earn it through merit. People will defend the low taxers and attack the high taxers.

 

Or as I saw someone else once mention, eliminate all battlepay completely. If you can't defend the rail on your own, you don't get to have it. If you tax the pants players, they won't support you.

 

Also: should eliminate the 50% payout for a mission failed. Having it encourages way too much AFK'ers clogging up real attempts to take a DS, while draining the attackers cash reserves. The current "mega-alliance" will still abuse this however, with so many alliances members available to AFK an opposing clans assault. Something should be done about AFKing perhaps?

 

 

Leveling-Up Mechanic

While it is a neat feature, it doesn't really make sense in the PvP scenario. Maybe put that in T4S or something, maybe make that the next Void tier, T5S????

 

But seriously get rid of it here. So many people spend so much time honing their skill and getting the right gear for the right moments, why spoil that? The game is about skill right? And now that the honeymoon for PvP is over, you don't see as many Rhino/Orthos/whatever set-up. Tenno are diversifying their game - somewhat -  in PvP(aside from Ash ultimate spam). And if PvP is end-game as so many claim, let us play with the gear we have so carefully earned. I dunno, as I've said before, it seems foolish that Tenno would go into something so poorly prepared.

 

Plus there is nothing as bad as entering a match late as an unranked whatever, fighting a lvl anything 1+ yours, its almost impossible to catch up at that point.

 

 

 

Just some suggestions, I had more, but as I'm slow to type, I've forgotten them by this point.

Something must be with PvP for the majority of players to have any interest in it.

[perfectStranger]

Balance:
- You can pick any frame

- you can pick any mod at any rank you want

- you can pick any weapon

- you can pick any aura

- you can pick any companion

 

All is in your power, you'll have your full dream-mode customization, and if you lose it won't be the game being unbalanced, it will be you making the wrong decicsion, failing to adapt.

Edited October 7, 2014 by perfectStranger

[Burns2PvP]

THIS POST IS NOT FOR MAKING SMART @$$ COMMENTS LIKE, "I would balance it by removing it." OR ELSE I WILL HAVE IT REQUESTED TO BE REMOVED. (I have a sneaking suspicion this post is gonna end poorly)

Also note that I will probably disagree with some people on certain ideas, but let us try and keep this as civil as possible.

 

As said, how would you balance PvP in Warframe. The reason I ask this is because I like playing conclave and I'm interested in other peoples opinions (as long as they are constructive). I am also making this post because I wanted solar rail PvP to be fun but due to lack of balance and odd game play choices (not a fan of the MOBA style they chose) I just find it not very fun.

 

Might as well put how I would balance it.

 

Conclave Balancing Ideas

 

Bleed out: It would be nice to just remove bleed out from conclave since it makes rounds unnecessarily long. If not that then make bleed out how it was before update fourteen.

 

Map design: Okay this isn't really balancing but I still think it is worth noting. The only good map is Europa's conclave arena because it has lots of obstacles to parkour off of (crates, high flat walls, pillars, ect.) and because there are a few places to camp. All of the maps should function like that because it is meant to be fast paced.

 

Abilities: This is more of a problem with what mods allow you to do. I think removing ability based mods (Fleeting Expertise, Blind Rage, Steamline, ect.) would help a bit. Now this wouldn't balance out some abilities but I would help a lot.

 

Solar Rail Conflict Balancing Ideas

 

Starting without the defenders: I think there should be a wait list so a game doesn't start without the defenders (I probably explained that oddly).

 

Spawn camping: This is a problem mostly for the attackers but it also happens to the defenders. I think the attackers should get a spherical shield in the first area and the a shield in the door way in the other areas. Both sides should also be able to shoot out of the shield but the campers can't shoot into it.

 

Bleed out: I think the attacker's bleed out should function like PvE because those lives are precious, and the defenders should just die and re-spawn because reviving isn't very useful for them.

 

Map design: I really don't like the map design in solar rail conflicts because they don't have enough cover and places to parkour off of. I think the map should again be similar to Europa's conclave arena.

 

Abilities: Same as balancing conclave except make energy a lot more scarce like in conclave.

 

Leveling: I am not a fan of this and I wouldn't be sad if it went away.

 

Balancing I'm Not To Sure How Exactly It Would Be Balanced

 

Damage: This is tricky, and I'm not sure how you would balance out a damage system as complex as Warframe's. Now the damage system we had before update 14 was better than what we have now (a damage nerf to everything, come on DE, that was just lazy) but it certainly wasn't perfect. Now should we keep it the same as PvE or change the stats up a bit so that every weapon is useful in PvP?

 

Conclave rating: Oh boy, is that a mess. Some of the most useful, overpowered, and terrible mods, weapons, frames, and abilities have a hilariously high and low conclave rating. Again, I know some things should have a much lower or much higher conclave rating but I'm not sure by how much.

 

Balancing Ideas Others Have Had That I'm Not A Fan Of

 

Load outs: Part of the fun of Warframe is that you have such a deep level of customization, I would hate to loose that.

 

I might add more to this later. Please, leave some ideas. I would love to see some creative ways of balancing that people come up with.

 

Conclave pm I sent to another person via skype.

 

 

Conclave Specific to encourage people to try / join it.

#1) Spectator. allow new people to see / watch players. O/P Advertised. (Train / allow new people to learn things + allow tournaments to be watched / streamed.)

#2) Small reward for kills / rounds. Pref both (Fall under advertisement)

#3) Check your balancing for weapons. This will take 10 seconds but you will see how an embolist that does 1 dmg / bullet gets stupid vs anyone, even if the embo is 6 formas in. Snipers not being able to 1 shot, regular weapons such as boar prime using 100% viral etting stupid, ect.

#4) Map Selection (Perhaps something like a dropdown such as sechura or inside the game.)

#5) Tournament Style Conclaves inside for an option (Make things fair / easy to use.)

#6) Matching. MMR, anything of the sort. Keep it away from the eyes of the players so they don't abuse their MMR to a point where they are vsing out of their league.

#7) Check your balancing for weapons. This will take 10 seconds but you will see how an embolist that does 1 dmg / bullet gets stupid vs anyone, even if the embo is 6 formas in. Snipers not being able to 1 shot, regular weapons such as boar prime using 100% viral etting stupid, ect.