The Use Of Exploits To Overcome Exploits.

[LadyScootaloo]

We all know that there have been a lot of questionable ethics involved in the Dark Sectors.

Recently, I've been thinking about riling trouble and getting someone to start using some clearly-not-sporty methods to make major DS points low on taxes. (i.e. Sechura)

 

Some examples I had in mind...

Sending 'fake defenders' to abuse the holder's ability to hold down a rail.

Forcing the real defenders to get 'stuck' in single missions for long periods of time by forcing powerful godmode exploits.

Using multiple sister/fake/alt clans to keep rails locked down with staged conflicts once they have been taken.

(the method above of using fake clans will allow near-perfect control as well as no costs for battlepay)

 

These methods will, more or less, allow any group of 200-300 to easily take down and keep a hold of any node.

 

Here is my question.

Would those who did this get punished for doing this? (or should they be?)

I have no care to do this myself, but, if I were to convince a friend to do this so that I may reap the benefits and she/he the glory, would it cause trouble with DE for this friend? (or myself)

 

edit : If you are interested/support the idea, do leave a comment or something. Share your views, if nothing else.

Edited October 13, 2014 by LadyScootaloo

[Vorsches]

This already happening yeah? All is fair in DS conflicts, DE "basically" gave consent in the streams leading up to DS when they wanted this to be a political game in warframe.

[(PSN)IMainTheMains]

I would expect that using exploits would have a chance of getting in trouble from DE for anyone involved in those exploits .

[LadyScootaloo]

This already happening yeah? All is fair in DS conflicts, DE "basically" gave consent in the streams leading up to DS when they wanted this to be a political game in warframe.

 

So you're saying that until DE fixes these exploits/loopholes, it 'should' be okay?

It may seem that way, but until a representative speaks up or some conclusive historical evidence has been shared, I would like a more definite conclusion.

[Vastaren]

You're going to get a vastly different answer depending on who you're asking - staff (presumably) or players, and even amongst players this is a contentious issue which has at various times come up in intense popular discussion, dividing us into very distinct demographic camps.

Given the status quo, I wouldn't imagine any punishment would befall the individual for those specific acts along - heck, right now, a certain alliance and their female counterpart are conflict-locking multiple Dark Sector nodes, so I wouldn't hold my breath for punishment or even any attention on what is, overall, not one of DE's most rigorously tested features.

I don't want to leave my personal take on it I'd that's not what your looking for.

[LadyScootaloo]

You're going to get a vastly different answer depending on who you're asking - staff (presumably) or players, and even amongst players this is a contentious issue which has at various times come up in intense popular discussion, dividing us into very distinct demographic camps.

Given the status quo, I wouldn't imagine any punishment would befall the individual for those specific acts along - heck, right now, a certain alliance and their female counterpart are conflict-locking multiple Dark Sector nodes, so I wouldn't hold my breath for punishment or even any attention on what is, overall, not one of DE's most rigorously tested features.

I don't want to leave my personal take on it I'd that's not what your looking for.

 

I'm seeing this will raise awareness and convince others to discuss the matter.

DS is incomplete, yes.

My problem with it isn't with DE. They do what they do.

The problem is us. There is a severe lack of proper attempts at getting around the problems ourselves.

Is it due to risk of banning?

The lack of sportsmanship?

Laziness?

Its value in personal worth being too low?

 

Well, I'm sure I could probably claim I am a servant of darkness and am trying to taint the hearts of the Tenno, too.

[Vorsches]

So you're saying that until DE fixes these exploits/loopholes, it 'should' be okay?

It may seem that way, but until a representative speaks up or some conclusive historical evidence has been shared, I would like a more definite conclusion.

Pretty much. An official statement from DE with a crackdown on some a users would send a pretty clear message if they mean to stop this. Until then it's all cloak and dagger, just like how Steve wanted it to be (he mentioned this in a stream before DS were released).

[LadyScootaloo]

Pretty much. An official statement from DE with a crackdown on some a users would send a pretty clear message if they mean to stop this. Until then it's all cloak and dagger, just like how Steve wanted it to be (he mentioned this in a stream before DS were released).

 

In that case, I would like to see what others think of this.

I would very much prefer using someone other than a friend to run this course for us.

If there are others who would agree to this cause and find themselves interested in attempting it, it's a start.

[Vorsches]

In that case, I would like to see what others think of this.

I would very much prefer using someone other than a friend to run this course for us.

If there are others who would agree to this cause and find themselves interested in attempting it, it's a start.

Best to play it safe. Cloak and dagger right?

[DeadX65]

they're 'features', or soon to be...like coptering became. DE seems indifferent to any issues relating to dark sectors much less redoing a mechanic they thought was a great idea. like the new UI. they knew the what the issues could be when they implemented the conflicts and to them that was OK.

Edited October 13, 2014 by DeadX65

[TankHunter678]

The problem is us. There is a severe lack of proper attempts at getting around the problems ourselves.

The problem is that the very things you described are being done, and by groups that have far more resources to throw around.

 

Even if you took 1 node, when one of the clans that were doing the chain lockdown wars attacks you wont have a chance to win. They will take back the node since they will be able to offer 100k battlepay from their high taxes while you wont be able to offer anything that competes. Then it is right back to stupidly high taxes and them doing lockdown wars.

 

What is the point of trying to fix the problem ourselves, if DE won't fix the core problem?

 

If DE went and removed tax system from Dark Sectors (and removed upkeep from the towers) then owning a Dark Sector would be a matter of personal pride and ego. The Dark Sectors would be like advertising. People will fight to wave their flag around and you would not have the shadow alliance controlling everything since there would be no profit in it at all.

[LadyScootaloo]

The problem is that the very things you described are being done, and by groups that have far more resources to throw around.

 

Even if you took 1 node, when one of the clans that were doing the chain lockdown wars attacks you wont have a chance to win. They will take back the node since they will be able to offer 100k battlepay from their high taxes while you wont be able to offer anything that competes. Then it is right back to stupidly high taxes and them doing lockdown wars.

 

What is the point of trying to fix the problem ourselves, if DE won't fix the core problem?

 

If DE went and removed tax system from Dark Sectors (and removed upkeep from the towers) then owning a Dark Sector would be a matter of personal pride and ego. The Dark Sectors would be like advertising. People will fight to wave their flag around and you would not have the shadow alliance controlling everything since there would be no profit in it at all.

 

The key here is the actual attack.

What if we had 20 different clans to 'attempt' the attack the instant it's available?

They wouldn't even have the chance. Yes, this is considered VERY ban-able in most tournament games.

(fake groups/contenders in brackets)

 

Rails don't actually cost very much to make for the average Storm or even Shadow clan.

The current moon/mountain tiers can pretty much produce rails on the spot if they felt like it.

 

edit : There can even be a list of supportive clans to the cause. Basically ANY clan that can build a rail and can attack for this cause is able to do this.

 

The rest of the organization is fairly simple and I can write down a 'basic set of rules' myself.

Edited October 13, 2014 by LadyScootaloo

[Shreiko]

I'm seeing this will raise awareness and convince others to discuss the matter.

DS is incomplete, yes.

My problem with it isn't with DE. They do what they do.

The problem is us. There is a severe lack of proper attempts at getting around the problems ourselves.

Is it due to risk of banning?

The lack of sportsmanship?

Laziness?

Its value in personal worth being too low?

 

Well, I'm sure I could probably claim I am a servant of darkness and am trying to taint the hearts of the Tenno, too.

     The original stigma dealt by how imbalanced the dark sectors were and its effect of making me averse to conflicts holds true for a large number of the community as well. That is an assumption, but nevertheless I am unwilling to step foot into that S#&$hole. I just wouldn't do it unless DE were to assure us that they were doing a huge balance pass on it after looking at all its flaws. I've seen little tweaks here and there go into pvp  in patch notes but mostly I feel that the tweaks are meh...

     Still very reluctant to give it another shot.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Shreiko

[LadyScootaloo]

     The original stigma dealt by how imbalanced the dark sectors were and its effect of making me averse to conflicts holds true for a large number of the community as well. That is an assumption, but nevertheless I am unwilling to step foot into that S#&$hole. I just wouldn't do it unless DE were to assure us that they were doing a huge balance pass on it after looking at all its flaws. I've seen little tweaks here and there go into pvp  in patch notes but mostly I feel that the tweaks are meh...

     Still very reluctant to give it another shot.

 

Regardless, there is a fairly simple way to do this without the need to involve the majority of the community.

All we would need is 'enough' people to start.

There can easily be a list of clans that would attack all at once on a target or all targets. It would only cost them a rail and they need not personally participate or supply battlepay.

 

Simply put, EVERYONE can contribute by having a rail ready at all times. In reality, only one rail among the entire community is used up each time.

[DJ_Redwire]

Rails don't actually cost very much to make for the average Storm or even Shadow clan.

The current moon/mountain tiers can pretty much produce rails on the spot if they felt like it.

 

That's not what he's talking about in terms of 'cost,' he's talking about battle pays. 

 

For the clans/alliances he described who have tons of credits to blow, all they need to do to cull a possible threat is throw out a huge battle pay (even if it isn't actually that huge, the initial numbers will still draw many to the fight) and then someone will see the possible profit, and that someone will post it in Region, and then wham - you have an equally brutal force of random people scrambling for that fleeting battle pay. Which is often more than enough to turn the tide. Do it a couple more times, and the battle is over. 

[Cleesus]

You can take the chance and hope that you will get away without consequence, some will. But at the end of the day using any exploits is grounds for action against your account, whether it be now or later.

[LadyScootaloo]

That's not what he's talking about in terms of 'cost,' he's talking about battle pays. 

 

For the clans/alliances he described who have tons of credits to blow, all they need to do to cull a possible threat is throw out a huge battle pay (even if it isn't actually that huge, the initial numbers will still draw many to the fight) and then someone will see the possible profit, and that someone will post it in Region, and then wham - you have an equally brutal force of random people scrambling for that fleeting battle pay. Which is often more than enough to turn the tide. Do it a couple more times, and the battle is over. 

 

There's an easy fix around that, too.

Technically, the attackers have a 'timer'.

What if you sent a whole bunch of people (say, 20-80) to attack and forfeit their offense easily each time by letting themselves die quickly or even committing suicide? This would DRAIN all of their stuff.

 

If we want to mix and match, the 'fake' defenders may be sent anyway (in groups of 3-4) and if an attacker finds a non-responsive group after trying to attack them, it will result in a victory for the attackers.

 

In the event the attackers find a non-responsive group and commits suicide anyway, this will drain their reserves. (bad planning)

 

In the event attackers find serious defenders, they can quickly concede by having all members rush blindly/commit suicide.

 

edit : I didn't include full details about all exploits (not all the exploits are explained, either). I'm one for keeping my ideas close to heart.

I get really disappointed whenever no one reads my honest and productive opinions. (easily hurt)

Edited October 13, 2014 by LadyScootaloo

[LadyScootaloo]

You can take the chance and hope that you will get away without consequence, some will. But at the end of the day using any exploits is grounds for action against your account, whether it be now or later.

 

That was more or less the basis for it, yes.

That being said, I have yet to hear of many people (or any) who have exploited the loopholes present in the game itself and have been punished for it.

Still, I suppose I can do this in ways that don't encourage DE to call it an exploit.

 

(there are alternatives that require some amount of work to initiate, albeit it will likely be seen as 'cooperation' rather than 'exploit'.)

[Cat_Jam]

Going as low as them is a risk, but complaining about them gets nothing done.

 

Is there an option where the honorable come out on top?

Edited October 13, 2014 by Cat_Jam

[DeadX65]

You can take the chance and hope that you will get away without consequence, some will. But at the end of the day using any exploits is grounds for action against your account, whether it be now or later.

is there some place that DE has actually stated that any of what's been discussed here is an exploit? seems unlikely considering DE knew this would happen, that there would be a lot of ways to lock down sectors...unless of course you're trying to say DE had no idea...that they really didn't think DS conflicts through before implementing them...

[LadyScootaloo]

Going as low as them is a risk, but complaining about them get's nothing done.

 

Is there an option where the honorable come out on top?

 

The methods will clearly be meant to rob the current 'tyrants' of any chance at enjoying whatever node we target.

There is no need to go 'as' low, though it would CERTAINLY be much easier.

 

While I do have a few ways that may be considered 'honourable', they're still meant to ruin THEIR fun by killing their chances. (repeated point)

 

edit : The non-respectable methods only involve the actual taking of the node.

There are a few ways to completely stop the current 'tyrants' from holding the nodes without resorting to 'fake' clans and the like.

There is in fact, one that is easier, costs less and much more effective. However, it involves an amount of risk and work to get started. Maintaining it may also have some issues.

Edited October 13, 2014 by LadyScootaloo

[Kalenath]

The methods will clearly be meant to rob the current 'tyrants' of any chance at enjoying whatever node we target.

There is no need to go 'as' low, though it would CERTAINLY be much easier.

 

While I do have a few ways that may be considered 'honourable', they're still meant to ruin THEIR fun by killing their chances. (repeated point)

 

Honor only means anything when you face 'honorable' opponents.

 

'Fighting fair' is a euphemism for losing most of the time.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Kalenath

[LadyScootaloo]

Honor only means anything when you face 'honorable' opponents.

 

'Fighting fair' is a euphemism for losing most of the time.

 

Still, I can understand why it is important we're not trying to ruin the game for people.

Though to make it both 'fair' on top of giving us 'absolute control' is somewhat like trying to kill a fish with a handful of water.

 

If you use the hand, you're really just being mean.

if you use the water, it's very unlikely you will succeed. (not impossible, but, quite a few odds need to be altered)

[DJ_Redwire]

There's an easy fix around that, too.

 

You and I use a very different definition of the word 'fix.'

 

I should have made this clear in my previous post but I'll just say it now anyway - I could care less what any attacker/defender is doing to bypass the content of he game and exploit their way to victory. The fact of the matter is, there are gaping holes in the system that only DE can address. You can't make this an issue about player conduct, because no matter where you go or what you do, there will ALWAYS be someone trying to juke the system. Period. Even the most honorable of clans/alliances are guilty of things.

 

And as far as any sort of punishment is concerned, that's up to DE's discretion of course. But it's clear to see from the past that reporting such behavior goes largely unpunished. Why? That's also up to DE's discretion. 

 

You can change a few 1's and 0's, but you can't change a group, culture, or ideal. Or at least, one of those is a lot easier than the other. Only DE can fix these issues.

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

All of this is happening, and I'd like to see the day when these clans lose it all.

DE we need a fix for this. It isn't just 'unfair', it is completely broken.