Limbo Feedback By Einde : The Perfect Exemple Of Good Ideas Spoiled By A Bad Design.

[(PSN)Folkeye]

I haven't even played him yet but I've watched some videos and have read a lot on the forums. Without even having him, I'm totally disappointed in the skill set that was chosen. Especially after so many awesome ideas in the DC that would have worked so much better than what they gave him. No frame should have that much troll power over another frame.

 

I'm an advocate to have things NOT work on other players that screws with them instead of helping them. I know the ideas are to help team mates (Switch Teleport, Rip Line, Bounce, Banish....) but players don't do that, DE should know that by now. They're not of a useful mindset most the time and those skills are used to torment you and prevent you from a goal. They shouldn't be allowed to work on another player.

[RiouHotaru]

The thing is, you can use his #3 either in combination with his #4

 

Basically, use Cataclysm around a bunch of enemies, then use Rift Surge to make all of them take extra damage.

 

His #1 is obviously meant only to strike single targets because it lets you do things, either Banish problematic enemies to give the party a break, or to save an ally.  (Also worth nothing is that anyone using projectile weapons can still hurt enemies.  Someone Banished me while I was on Mirage with my Torid and my Torid grenades could STILL shoot at targets and leave gas clouds.)

 

Rift Walk leaves Limbo free to do things like revive fallen teammates or hold Interception points, in addition to attacking banished targets.  (This opens a whole new realm of stupid exploits for PvP though.  A Rift Walk-ing Limbo can freely arm panels, and expose the core without worrying about retaliation.  Hilariously, Limbo is his own hard counter though.  If one Limbo in PvP Rift-Walks, you just need another Limbo to Rift Walk after him and get rid of him.)

 

He's definitely a more advanced utility frame, and requires people to actually think about his skills rather than just spamming Catalysm.

[GideonG]

His #1 is obviously meant only to strike single targets because it lets you do things, either Banish problematic enemies to give the party a break, or to save an ally.  (Also worth nothing is that anyone using projectile weapons can still hurt enemies.  Someone Banished me while I was on Mirage with my Torid and my Torid grenades could STILL shoot at targets and leave gas clouds.)

 

If we're going to assume being effected by auras in the void, not being able to pick things up in the void, the pod being damaged by things in and out of the void, etc. are all bugs .. I would assume, that this is a bug and unintended as well.

Edited October 27, 2014 by GideonG

[RiouHotaru]

If we're going to assume being effected by auras in the void, not being able to pick things up in the void, the pod being damaged by things in and out of the void, etc. are all bugs .. I would assume, that this is a bug and unintended as well.

 

I've never seen enemies being able to hurt the pod after they were banished.

[Ijaa-Aden]

Problem with Banish not being a toggle skill  is to target a big one in a mob when CQC allies constanly cross your fireline (specifically in PU, premade groups tend to be more disciplined). Sometimes one is sent in the Void unwillingly, wasting efficiency for the whole team.

[Vashramire]

Banish needs to have an AoE component and not work on allies. Rift Walk should leave behind a portal like Nova's Worm Hole for allies to get to the Rift. Rift Surge needs a flat out rework. Cataclysm needs to be a toggle, not reduce in size, and hopefully not cut off allies from fighting into or out of the sphere. It would be nice if it knocked down when they enter like Banish does so on cast and anytime more come in you get a bit of CC for breathing room if you are inside. The Rift already does 300 damage on entering or exiting with Banish and Cataclysm but it should probably be a damage over time so the longer they are in there the more it pays off. All of this on top of fixing the bugs we already know. (I'm looking at you Rift items that I can't pick up)

Edited October 27, 2014 by Vashramire

[LascarCapable]

The thing is, you can use his #3 either in combination with his #4

 

Basically, use Cataclysm around a bunch of enemies, then use Rift Surge to make all of them take extra damage.

 

His #1 is obviously meant only to strike single targets because it lets you do things, either Banish problematic enemies to give the party a break, or to save an ally.  (Also worth nothing is that anyone using projectile weapons can still hurt enemies.  Someone Banished me while I was on Mirage with my Torid and my Torid grenades could STILL shoot at targets and leave gas clouds.)

 

Rift Walk leaves Limbo free to do things like revive fallen teammates or hold Interception points, in addition to attacking banished targets.  (This opens a whole new realm of stupid exploits for PvP though.  A Rift Walk-ing Limbo can freely arm panels, and expose the core without worrying about retaliation.  Hilariously, Limbo is his own hard counter though.  If one Limbo in PvP Rift-Walks, you just need another Limbo to Rift Walk after him and get rid of him.)

 

He's definitely a more advanced utility frame, and requires people to actually think about his skills rather than just spamming Catalysm.

 

Well, being an advanced and hard to play frame is a thing, but screwing up teamplay even if you don't want to is another thing. :/

 

I can admit that Limbo is done for those kind of players who thinks a lot and have a lot of in game hours, yet his offensive potential will mostly slow down your team. He's doing not that bad as a support frame, but seriously, we have way better alternatives. Let's just take Trinity : with Energy Vampire, you have just a better way for getting your energy back and it won't prevent you from killing enemies. Also with Trinity you have blessing that gives you damage resistance (it's not being "invincible" like banish, but hey... That's something).

 

I played some more with him today, and well... Except for cryopod defense and saving that one ally that was swarmed with Bombards and other happy things, I didn't felt like I was helping my team that much. Casting rift surge and then banishing one guy and casting cataclysm on a crowd in front of me was just way too time consuming, while if I had my Volt I could just cast Electric shield and unleash hell with my Amprex : way more simple, way more efficient, and also protect the pod very fine as long as you pay attention enough.

 

We have to make Limbo less enclined to harm his whole team when used offensively, while preventing trolling and keeping his actual support/defensive potential. That's my opinion, and I seem to share it with a lot of people.

 

 

Banish needs to have an AoE component and not work on allies. Rift Walk should leave behind a portal like Nova's Worm Hole for allies to get to the Rift. Rift Surge needs a flat out rework.

 

That's not a bad idea overall. Well, that does not allow us to gain a new skill like my Banish/Rift Walk fusion idea, but that's definitely nice for reducing trolling risks and make Limbo a bit more useful overall.

 

I think we could go further though.

[Jandor]

1. Shouldn't affect allies.

2. Should leave behind a doorway so players can follow Limbo into the rift. Other players in there automatically leave when Limbo does.

3. Just make it forcibly eject rifted enemies from the rift with damage and/or debuff.

4. Make the size static and have enemies that are in it be trapped in it till it runs out.

 

so

 

1. basically removes heavy units for a while.

2. emergency escape button, plus team mates in peril can dash in for a reprieve plus energy restore.

3. puts the heavies you removed from play back into the level (or clears out your escape route.)

4. traps enemies in one area and synergizes nicely with AoE damage ults.

 

Edit: I'd like to keep the shrinking, but I think if it trapped enemies in it as well it would be prone to glitching. It'd be nice to trap enemies together then open up with the warframe powers or rift walk in and start with the AoE weapons into an ever shrinking area.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Jandor

[LukeAura]

When I hear people talk about Limbo, It reminds me of the Riftstalker class from....Rift. It's a very diverse Rogue class that requires a lot of micromanagement with the potential for surprise burst attacks, and even tanking/pulling by manipulation of aggro and rift based defensive buffs. The major weakness was that this meant he would burn through his energy resources rapidly if he couldn't keep a delicate balance of being in a recharge state versus doing his other duties. 
Pulling, tanking, damage, are all things that seem to be key to Limbo as well in a very similar style with a similar energy resource management idea. 

I think the problem does mostly extend from the fact that with only 4 abilities, and limited rift based passives, Limbo can't be micromanaged and have enough tools to use like his class would normally entail. We simply do not have enough control. I'm not sure we can have enough control to be quite honest. We can squish powers in together all we want but trying to get him to work like a 10+ ability key system is not going to happen.

He has power synergy though, and that's good, but Rift Surge + Cataclysm is 175 energy to pull off over all less than what most frames can do with only 100. And he can rift walk for energy back, but  its too slow relative to his costs, and making it be a burst restore of energy would be broken. It's synergy at the sake of effectiveness. I can understand that though, synergy is basically a multiplicative, maybe even exponential factor. Just a little bit too much or too little and you go from very underpowered to broken a lot quicker than more straightforward classes would.

Edited October 27, 2014 by LukeAura

[RiouHotaru]

@Einde: While it's true that other frames might do some of those things differently, you can't always rely on having a Volt or a Trinity, or any given frame on a mission.  Limbo might need a tweak or two (so things like poison damage or Excimus auras don't effect him), but otherwise I'd say his skillset is fine.

[Mi-Marido]

Thanks to the OP for his post.  I'm glad to see a lot of suggestions for improving Limbo rather than just flaming.  I love playing new Warframes, but as much as I wanted to like this one, I just can't in its current state.  Everyone has already provided very relevant feedback on his pros and cons, so I will also toss out some thoughts on how to make him enjoyable as well as viable in all situations without making him overpowered.

 

The concept for this frame was a great idea.  A Voidwalker, if you will.  His abilities, however, as they are right now, make his powers very black and white.  Either in the "void" or not.  As a master of moving between two planes, I'd like to see his powers altered so that instead of just moving from one plane to another, Limbo can move to a place IN BETWEEN the two planes with reduced damage incoming as well as outgoing.

 

1) Banish: This is a great example of crowd control, but it's such a small scale that it becomes tedious to use often.  Unless it's used on a very strong enemy, the reality is, you're better off just shooting it.  The knockdown and damage it does is great for a first power.

Give Banish a small AoE.  Same damage and knockdown.  Enemies that survive the initial damage will be placed between planes and have 50% base reduction in damage as well as receive 50% less damage.  Allies cannot be affected by Banish.  Balanced CC that isn't situational.

 

2) Rift Walk: This should function like Banish but on yourself.  By moving in between planes, you receive and deal less damage, but as a master of the void the numbers are improved.

When using Rift Walk, you receive a base damage reduction of 30/40/50/60% (just suggested numbers) immunity to procs and knockdown, but you deal reduced damage with weapons. 25/20/15/10%

 

Make Cataclysm the #3 power, like with Snow Globe

3) Cataclysm: All enemies inside are afflicted with Banish, including the knockdown, and the above suggested damage modifiers.  Allies inside the area affected by Cataclysm take on the Rift Walk effect, but will deal 100% damage to enemies inside the circle of effect and only reduced damage to enemies outside it, except enemies outside affected by Banish.  Pickups such as mods, ammo, health and energy will be possible at all times.  This can be stacked on top of Snow Globe so that the Globe takes less damage and will become stronger against higher level enemies.

 

4) Rift Surge: Limbo can harness the energy of the Void.  All enemies in a radius around him suffer 75/150/225/300 base elemental damage per tick.  This damage will be a random elemental proc as a result of the void energy.  Base duration 3/5/7/9 seconds.  Limbo and all allies with the Rift Walk effect will no longer deal reduced damage and furthermore gain 5/10/15/20 energy per tick of Rift Surge's effect as well as have an increase to all status chance by 10/20/30/40%. 

 

All of the above numbers are merely suggestions, but these abilities will fit with Limbo's description, give him better control over the battlefield without stepping on any other Warframe's "toes", as well as making him less tedious to use.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Malakai111

[s7n7a7k7e]

I think when you cast Banish on enemies it should leave a small tear in the void where the enemy was stuck with the ability that serves as a doorway for allies to jump into the void to attack that enemy and also jump back out of it. It would be similar to Nova's teleportal that allies can travel through. I also think the visuals of being in the void are kind of weak. I was expecting something more astral looking. When in the void it should be more than a sepia filter. It should look like I stepped into "limbo" space. Like standing in space almost. With enemies looking negative, and everyone in the void with you would look normal. And from outside the void, everyone would look like they are actually in a void. Same as looking through sillouete player windows into space. The void "space" visual could be like a mini-skybox from the archwing space missions. As is my friend can barely tell when I am in the void or not.

 

But yeah, other than visuals allies need a way to enter and exit the void. I've already banished my friend more than once accidentally because they got in the line of fire when I casted it. Then she was useless because she couldn't attack anything while in the void, and I didn't know if it was possible to cast it again to take her out of the void or not. 

[tris1]

1. Shouldn't affect allies.

2. Should leave behind a doorway so players can follow Limbo into the rift. Other players in there automatically leave when Limbo does.

3. Just make it forcibly eject rifted enemies from the rift with damage and/or debuff.

4. Make the size static and have enemies that are in it be trapped in it till it runs out.

 

so

 

1. basically removes heavy units for a while.

2. emergency escape button, plus team mates in peril can dash in for a reprieve plus energy restore.

3. puts the heavies you removed from play back into the level (or clears out your escape route.)

4. traps enemies in one area and synergizes nicely with AoE damage ults.

 

Edit: I'd like to keep the shrinking, but I think if it trapped enemies in it as well it would be prone to glitching. It'd be nice to trap enemies together then open up with the warframe powers or rift walk in and start with the AoE weapons into an ever shrinking area.

these are already better ideas

[LascarCapable]

We just got this from the hotfix !

 

• Increased the intensity of the Rift Surge buff visual effects.
• Rift Walk can now be disabled by the Stalker.
• Banish can now be recast on targets to bring them back and forth from the Rift.
• Fixed Void laser traps still harming Limbo in Rift Walk mode.
• Fixed an issue with the visual effects for Limbo's channeling not appearing correctly.
• Fixed Corpus Mine Osprey mines (as well as other replicated projectiles) affecting across Limbo’s Rift on Clients.
• Please note that more tweaks to Limbo will come in the next Hotfix.

 

That's a start. More will follow.

[(PSN)TheAce37]

He will be buffed. Soon

[Darkmoone1]

We just got this from the hotfix !

 

 

 

That's a start. More will follow.

Awesome! The Banish change is especially welcomed (Gives him more options which is a must for a tactical frame like himself) as well as the bug fixes. I hope they implement some modified versions of the ideas we had in this topic and others. Gonna be an interesting few days for Limbo coming up.

[LascarCapable]

Aaaaand other changes incoming !

 

Limbo Changes/Fixes:

 

• Sped up casting animation for Rift Surge.
• Fixed issues with the Limbo Theorem quest inbox not automatically appearing.
• Stalker ability cancel ability can close rifts. Prevents people from just using Banish or Tear in Space to avoid being hurt by the Stalker.
• Fixed issues with Void laser and Ice traps affecting Limbo while Rift Walk is active.
• Fixed issues with Limbo dropping items like the datamass while activating Rift Walk potentially losing them forever.

 

Faster Rift Surge. This may make Limbo able to deal with ennemies he banished a bit more quickly. Not enough, but that's something !

[Darkmoone1]

Aaaaand other changes incoming !

 

 

 

Faster Rift Surge. This may make Limbo able to deal with ennemies he banished a bit more quickly. Not enough, but that's something !

Faster Rift Surge is definitely something he needed(Though I was hoping it became a passive when he entered the rift. Still content with this though). Hoping he gets more changes as the week continues.

[EchoesOfRain]

welp, just got called an ***hole for accidentally banishing an ally, even though I brought him back immediately -_-

 

 

Anyways, excited to see these changes coming so fast. While I'm still not happy with Rift Surge, having it scale with power strength is definitely making it somewhat worthwhile for now. a 3x multiplier is much better than 1.5x. Thinking about putting Stretch back on now

[Skullriot]

Looks like I really will spend the time to get this frame.

[LascarCapable]

welp, just got called an ***hole for accidentally banishing an ally, even though I brought him back immediately -_-

 

 

Anyways, excited to see these changes coming so fast. While I'm still not happy with Rift Surge, having it scale with power strength is definitely making it somewhat worthwhile for now. a 3x multiplier is much better than 1.5x. Thinking about putting Stretch back on now

 

Stretch may be good on his powers indeed. Especially if those are buffed the ways suggested in that thread.

[s7n7a7k7e]

The more I think, the more I wonder if the idea of the banishment is really something that we could keep. Maybe there's no way to implement right Limbo's rift mechnanic, and it has to be scrapped. :/

 

I wouldn't go too far and say that Limbo has to be scrapped totally though. After all, I am not a dev, and it's too soon to say that anyway. There may be some good ways to implement that. It has to be.

 

I don't think Limbo's abilities need to be scrapped, except for Rift Surge. The buff/debuff giving within the Void by Rift Surge should be an innate affect debuff on enemies and buff on players currently in the void. Without casting Banish or Cataclysm on enemies first RiftSurge is absolutely useless.

 

When I think of what Limbo's abilities should be, I imaging abilities and visuals similar to Blink from X-men: Days of Future Past ( http://youtu.be/Q4-20CuOEOc ).

 

*** Cataclysm is fine other than I feel the visuals of the void bubble looks like if Frost's Snow Globe, and Ember's Fire Blast had a love child. It doesn't really have a "void" feeling to it at all. In fact none of Limbo's abilities do. A visual change would be nice for Cataclysm but the ability itself I don't have any outstanding complaints about.

 

*** Rift Walk is fine because it serves as a way form Limbo to instantly enter the void without needing to use a portal, being that he is the master of the void anyway, right? The void needs better visuals though other than a glow effect on the character and a lame sepia filter. But the ability itself is very useful especially when in an emergency because you can duck into the Void when enemies begin to overwhelm you.

 

*** Banish should basically look like Limbo opens a small void portal near the targeted enemy and the enemy gets sucked into it forcefully. This portal could then be used my Limbo or other players to enter the void and finish off the enemy or enemies within who are in a weakened state within the void.

 

*** Rift Surge could be replaced entirely by a new ability. Maybe it could be a portal that Limbo could cast in front of him similar to Volt's electric shield. This portal would suck any incoming bullets from enemies into the void, and those bullets would hit any enemies trapped within the void at that time. This way even if there are no enemies within the void to be hit by bullets, it would still have a secondary purpose of shielding Limbo from enemy fire.

Edited October 28, 2014 by s7n7a7k7e

[LascarCapable]

Ding ! Even more news !

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/334516-limbo-development-and-feedback/?p=3753352#entry3753352

 

So, the staff is thinking about a way to fuse banish and rift walk together ! I guess it's pretty well started. :)

[Wynn]

I just hope with all the changes we don't lose the energy gain he gives groups right now.

[LascarCapable]

I just hope with all the changes we don't lose the energy gain he gives groups right now.

 

I doubt that it will be lost. After all, it's for the most of people here the main reason about using him.