U15 Excalibur And The Joke We Call Super Jump

[lonelydrone]

i think superjump would be a lot nicer if it was dorectional, that way you could jump wherever u want, not just up.

 

that being said, i totally agree with OP.

[Ithloniel]

-snip-

 

I have no problem sticking with Excalibur for the Radial Blind.  As I said, it works the way it should, now.  That skill alone makes me love Excalibur, and even with its current iteration.

 

Super Jump + Radial Blind might hit more enemies beyond cover, but there is a clear issue there too: most enemies within a Stretch buffed range have usually already become aware of you.  This means, casting Radial Blind as it functions now, will stun them regardless of cover.  Due to this, Overextend still has a place in RB Excal builds, because it can cover a greater distance, in which enemies can become aware of you.  Basically, go Stretch if you really want to use the other skills, and go Overextend if RB is still your lovechild.

 

As for Slash Dash Mobility, most end-game melee weapons copter very well.  Dakra P, while covering less distance than Slash Dash, covers the same distance faster.  Dual Ichors/Zorens outrace Slash Dash by far, and with a zerker build, can practically double the speed and distance of even the greatest SD.  Glaive P has a great copter too.  Bo Prime too.  The only end-game weapons with poor copter speeds are Dragon Nikana and Orthos Prime.

 

Saying "its obvious Radial Javelin isn't good in the late-game" is a cop-out.  Many ultimates have far greater use later in the game, even  if they don't carry into a T4 30 minute survival.  Also, you can't rely on an Augment just to make a poor skill good.  Also, that Augment might actually prove more efficient with a neg-power strength RB build, since it will hit every enemy in the vicinity to give you the bonus.  This means, you might be able to stack multiple Javelins.  I don't have it just yet, so I haven't had the chance to test how p-strength and recasts effect it.

 

Lastly, why would you Super Jump away from a Napalm when you could blind it?  Comparatively, one skill gets you out of trouble, with some good mobility, while the other gets your entire squad out of trouble.

 

When deciding if a frame is good, you need to hold it up in comparison to other frames with similar skills, as well as asses each skill's ability to support a team in battle.  Excalibur is not much of a team player without RB.

 

 

Radial Javelin's projectile count should be what Power Strength enhances. Give the skill multishot, essentially. 150% multishot at max rank, and that increases with Power Strength. Intensify would essentially double the power of the skill by making each enemy take 2 javelins, guaranteed.

 

Have the damage either bypass armor, be finisher type, or eliminate enemy armor, so survivors are crippled.

 

Speed up the cast animation, too, and let enemies be flat-out pinned.

 

Power Strength actually used to affect Javelin count on top of damage.  Now it doesn't, since it spawns one close to each enemy in the area.

 

Wait, on Radial Javelin, even with Natural Talent the stun wears off too fast?  Because when I use Radial Javelin with maxed Natural Talent I can easily start shooting/blasting things.  Hell, even without Natural Talent I have more than enough time to go after enemies.  While it does make the Bullet Attractor combo useless, I find the fact that the enemy cap was straight up removed to still be a better change.  Now I can hit 20+ enemies, even those behind cover, simply because they were within my area of effect when Javelin went off.

 

Slash Dash isn't obsolete by coptering.  Unless you're using specific weapons with excellent slide-attack numbers, Slash Dash still lets you move faster, farther, and hit everything between start and finish without an awkward animation.  I do agree that perhaps a portion of melee damage should be added, or perhaps an automatic bleed proc like Shuriken would make it more useful, but what we get certainly isn't bad.

 

I want to see Slash Dash move fast.  Basic melee attacks in Archwing have excellent speed, and my personal preference is that SD feel something like that.  If you are a fan of Dragon Nikana or Orthos Prime, I can understand using Slash Dash for mobility.  Most other late-game weapons will copter you just as well, and in some cases, better.

 

As for Radial Javelin's stun, I should clarify.  It is not completely useless or anything.  It simply pales in comparison to other skills on other frames that have a stun, and for half the cost, and a third of the animation time.  If we argue that the damage on RJ is too low, and the utility it its best purpose, then Excalibur is paying a hefty toll for a short stun.  In this situation, a low power strength would make more sense in the late-game, to increase the utility of the skill by upping efficiency and range.  The problem with that is, in almost every situation, RB will do it better, for cheaper.

[(PSN)Strifedecer]

I don't understand why DE tries so hard to stick with their original ideas, even though they obviously don't work.

[RiouHotaru]

As for Radial Javelin's stun, I should clarify.  It is not completely useless or anything.  It simply pales in comparison to other skills on other frames that have a stun, and for half the cost, and a third of the animation time.  If we argue that the damage on RJ is too low, and the utility it its best purpose, then Excalibur is paying a hefty toll for a short stun.  In this situation, a low power strength would make more sense in the late-game, to increase the utility of the skill by upping efficiency and range.  The problem with that is, in almost every situation, RB will do it better, for cheaper.

 

Except that RJ hits enemies behind covers or walls, RB does not (as per the changes).  Also in terms of sheer burst damage, RJ does more damage in one tic than most damage-dealing Ults do.  In addition, it's freely distributed across the three damage types.  With max range it hits 58.75m, which is HUGE.  Like most pure damage moves it does fall off after a while, but that's normal.  It's still a good way to stun large groups when there's lots of geometry in the way.

[J-Reyno]

What's really cute is thinking I'm going to Super Jump to stun and make myself invisible when I can Radial Blind instead and stun those enemies and make myself and my entire team invisible.... in a much larger radius... for a longer time....

 

I don't even get much mobility out of it because modding for power strength on Excalibur = LOL

 

It'd be nice if Slash Dash were a modifier of melee damage and really, really fast, almost so that Excal is like a blur.  It could be really satisfying but nah...

 

Javelin could use some bleed since you're impaling enemies with a blade of energy and all.

[BrazilianJoe]

Slash Dash should scale equipped weapon's damage. 

 

Radial Javelin should have faster casting animation, and have an extra effect to tore open weakpoints on enemies (2x damage if hit) 

[Ithloniel]

Except that RJ hits enemies behind covers or walls, RB does not (as per the changes).  Also in terms of sheer burst damage, RJ does more damage in one tic than most damage-dealing Ults do.  In addition, it's freely distributed across the three damage types.  With max range it hits 58.75m, which is HUGE.  Like most pure damage moves it does fall off after a while, but that's normal.  It's still a good way to stun large groups when there's lots of geometry in the way.

 

The problem is, it only is one tick.  Many of the newer, and even some of the older, ults do more than one tick.

 

Many ultimates completely outstrip RJ in both damage, and utility.  The only ability that can be readily compared is Crush.  Like RJ, Crush stops enemy movement temporarily, but instead of this being a stun after the damage, it lifts enemies into the air before the damage.  Besides that, the damage is the same 1000.  Want to know something funny?  Crush, while having a smaller radius, bypasses obstacles, and hits all enemies in the range.  That's right.  While RJ can occasionally miss, Crush never does.  Its a bit of a toss-up, saying which one is worse.

 

Just because one skill, which sucks in the late-game, is as bad as Radial Javelin, doesn't make Radial Javelin good.  Actually, people have complained about Crush for a long while too.  It was a joke skill in the end-game, because Shield Polarity completely outstripped it in damage, while providing a heal-all for allied shields.  People made an argument for it in the early to mid-game, and if that is your stance on RJ, all the power to you.  Just give me something Excal can use in the late-game, too.  After all, Mag got Shield Polarity...

 

 

As for RB, this is a common misunderstanding concerning the new changes.  RB hits enemies behind cover if they are aware of you.  It can only do this within a certain duration, so the longer the enemy is behind cover, the less likely it will blind them.  While testing, I found the duration to be more than enough to effectively lock down anything in the area that could harm you, or a cryo you are defending.  The only threat is fresh spawns and enemies entering the same area, which makes sense.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Ithloniel

[(PSN)Alphapsykongaroo]

superjump actually sounds really fun for pvp.

[Pro3Display]

about that radial javelin thing...... we can argue a lot about stun duration, hitting enough enemies, behind the cover or not...

cast time just kills it

i usually just die when i try to cast it and the worst thing that it doesn't matter if my build is flawed or 3k+ lvl mobs (exaggeration) damage too much

[DrBorris]

My super jump idea, press when on the ground and it works the same as now OR press in the air and Excalabro thrusts his melee/magic Skana into the ground for a nice slam radius and some hefty damage for any enemy directly hit by your melee/magic Skana.

[Ithloniel]

My super jump idea, press when on the ground and it works the same as now OR press in the air and Excalabro thrusts his melee/magic Skana into the ground for a nice slam radius and some hefty damage for any enemy directly hit by your melee/magic Skana.

 

This makes some sense, actually.  A result of Super Jump could be a damage and radius buff to your melee ground slam.

 

If you think about basically every hack-slash/RPG ever, there is a Leap skill, and then a Leap Attack skill when you get into higher levels.  While Leap skills play far more importance in these games due to the limited mobility available in them, a Leap Attack makes far more sense.  Even Zephyr damages enemies as she flies...

 

I think the stealth effect should last aproximately 2 seconds after landing, and be unaffected by duration.  This will let you land amongst your enemies and melee them with either a slam attack, or just slash anything nearby upon landing stealthily into a crowd.  Add a slight increase slam attack ranges off of the jump and you have yourself a really cool melee damage skill that has strong synergy with Radial Blind.

 

If Slash Dash had some melee % bonus, this would build further synergy.  Excalibur could be a really cool frame with a strong balance of utility and melee DPS.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Ithloniel

[Thaumatos]

Update 15 can be described in 4 words:

 

Slash

Dash

Has

Died

[shut]

Quoting myself from another thread, in which other players were going on about how lackluster Super Jump was.

 

 

Javelin and Slash Dash could still use some improvement for sure; nobody's denying that...

 

...

As for Super Jump, I think that the new Air Slashes actually benefited Excalibur more than most other Frames. Everyone on these forums is going "wow super jump gives barely more boost than air slashes and you cant even choose the direction" and such, yet very few people are considering what can be done when you combine the two together. After spending most of my time yesterday using SJ+Wall Leap+Air Slash+Slash Dash combos launching myself across entire outdoor maps with non-coptering weapons (a feat which, I imagine, most other Frames are still unable to accomplish), I really feel as though the new Air Slashes are the best buff that Super Jump could have asked for. Never mind the fact that enemies can't even see you as you fling yourself across the heavens.

 

 

TL;DR - the current Super Jump is fulfilling my wildest Excalibur dreams as I zigzag across the heavens in a single Invisible bound.

Super Jump's biggest buff wasn't the stun or the invisibility-- it was the introduction of Air Slashes.

[shut]

Update 15 can be described in 4 words:

 

Slash

Dash

Has

Died

 

Slash Dash has not changed. It had to have been "dead" beforehand for it to be dead today, which is not the case.

 

We all agree it could be better, of course, but it still has its uses (and is invaluable if you're running with a weapon that you can't Copter with).

Edited October 28, 2014 by SortaRandom

[Ja_man]

I feel super jumps usefulness had been reduced now that any frame can air attack up to most ledges. Unless you're maxing out the jump height to make extraordinarily high jumps.

[Otakuwolf]

Super Jump + Radial Blind might hit more enemies beyond cover, but there is a clear issue there too: most enemies within a Stretch buffed range have usually already become aware of you.  This means, casting Radial Blind as it functions now, will stun them regardless of cover.  Due to this, Overextend still has a place in RB Excal builds, because it can cover a greater distance, in which enemies can become aware of you.  Basically, go Stretch if you really want to use the other skills, and go Overextend if RB is still your lovechild.

 

Bug

 

As for Slash Dash Mobility, most end-game melee weapons copter very well.  Dakra P, while covering less distance than Slash Dash, covers the same distance faster.  Dual Ichors/Zorens outrace Slash Dash by far, and with a zerker build, can practically double the speed and distance of even the greatest SD.  Glaive P has a great copter too.  Bo Prime too.  The only end-game weapons with poor copter speeds are Dragon Nikana and Orthos Prime.

 

I played with all those weapons, and i never went as far as with the slash dash.

So, before you spoke about mods on Radial Javelin, let me do the same now:

Slash dash with stretch and overextend mod.

Coptering weapons can't equip those and won't go nearly as far as a slash dash with those two mods maxed out.

 

 

Saying "its obvious Radial Javelin isn't good in the late-game" is a cop-out.  Many ultimates have far greater use later in the game, even  if they don't carry into a T4 30 minute survival.  Also, you can't rely on an Augment just to make a poor skill good.  Also, that Augment might actually prove more efficient with a neg-power strength RB build, since it will hit every enemy in the vicinity to give you the bonus.  This means, you might be able to stack multiple Javelins.  I don't have it just yet, so I haven't had the chance to test how p-strength and recasts effect it.

 

Of course, you can't compare the ultimate of an "all around" warframe as Excalibur with, let's say, a "tank" like Rhino because those are two frames that are not made for the same purpouse in first place, as you can't compare Excalibur's ultimate with a Nova's ultimate because again the two frames are not made for the same purpouse, and you can't compare Excalibur's ultimate with Frost's ultimate because are not made for the same purpouse.

You can't pretend to put in comparison the abilities of different warframes if have different purpouses in first place.

 

 

Lastly, why would you Super Jump away from a Napalm when you could blind it?  Comparatively, one skill gets you out of trouble, with some good mobility, while the other gets your entire squad out of trouble.

 

Hmmm, let's see, 10 en Vs 50 ? Is that a good reason ? Because to me is a very valid one.

If your way (like most of other people's way) to use a warframe means "use only one skill over and over" then you'd better pick a different one like Rhino or Nova, why just blind the enemies when you can blast them all away instead ? If you stick with Cal then you should stop complaining because he's not as "powerful" as other frames and start thinking that maybe this frame wasn't made to be powerful but for other uses in first place.

That and also starting to use his other skills than radial blind (and maybe try builds for those too) to understand that are not as bad as most of the people paint them and that coptering is not better than slash-dashing.

[VentiGlondi]

Slash dash with stretch and overextend mod.

Coptering weapons can't equip those and won't go nearly as far as a slash dash with those two mods maxed out.

I'm starting to doubt you've actually played Excalibur, if you think power range makes slash dash go further,

[SIDESTRE4M]

Overextended has only one place in Excalibur... in blindbro-builds. In every other build Overextend is the number one gimp.

[Eric1738]

i have said this many many times: excalibur needs a REOWRK.

U15 change is at best "tweaks". it doesnt solve the problem. the only nice thing is javelin can actually hit now(WOW, great achievement after more than one and half years. should applaud here./s), but its damage still sucks. oh it's a starter warframe so it's ok damage doesnt scale well. at least it stuns enemies properly, but that "i dont know why so long" cast animation prevents me from shooting or melee stunned enemies. what a synergy...

super jump's invis... well, cool, first step, make height relates to duration, like all other similar abilities for f*** sake. second step, ignore first step and u might just totally rework this ability from scratch. give excalibur something can help perform melee!

slash dash, dead ability as always, good for newbies when they dont know how to move properly in this game. give it something veterans can make use of. (btw rhino charge has similar problem, but at least the augment mod gives us some hope)

[inappropriatename5818]

Idk, for the energy it costs it's pretty solid I would say. It's like the "OH SH*T" button IMO.   

With the new ability mod changes you can still do what you always did except you have a panic button now. I really don't see why people always have to complain about everything.   

It's like you were thirsty, DE gave you water and you're like "wtf DE, I don't like water, should have gave me soda".     

 

 

I really don't see what people expected from a jump ability that costs 10 energy? Jump into another dimension, steal a nuke, bring it back and explode the whole map?

[MichaelSD]

The Jump is mechanically and thematically idiotic bad. Considering that Jump and Radial Blind (the only useful ability of the Excalibur) clash there is absolutely no reason to use Jump above mid level.

 

The whole "fix" made things just worse. The Excalibur was never a powerhouse, now it is even more weaker. Every frames CC ability is stronger / more useful than Radial Blind. And no neither Slash Dash, nor Radial Javelin is of much help with their fixed damage.

 

So in the end of the day the devs weaked the Excalibur, which was already not among the strongest warframes. As a Founder I am especially "happy" with the decision. Combined with the lacklustre Archwing and Syndicates, I am won't pay a penny until the next major update, hoping they will come up with something useful.

[Reaver_X]

i know what they were thinking when they did what they did with superjump. the idea is that its supposed to get u out of a bad position and into a more advantageous one quickly...thing is, radial blind already does that, and if ur in a wide open space theres absolutely no benefit to using superjump while theres plenty reason to use radial blind in that case.

 

super jump should definitely be reworked, it doesn't bring anything to Excalibur that it can't already do.

[MichaelSD]

i know what they were thinking when they did what they did with superjump. the idea is that its supposed to get u out of a bad position and into a more advantageous one quickly...thing is, radial blind already does that, and if ur in a wide open space theres absolutely no benefit to using superjump while theres plenty reason to use radial blind in that case.

 

super jump should definitely be reworked, it doesn't bring anything to Excalibur that it can't already do.

 

Exactly.

[Reaver_X]

Super jump should be turned into some sort of state change an be renamed SuperCharge or something like that.

[Archangelzz]

Uh have you ever heard of a little mod called heavy impact which when used in conjunction with super jump releases a radial shock wave around Excalibur that knocks every non boss unit down and deals damage which also stacks on top of slam attacks. Even if the damage is underwhelming you can still use it to knock down units for more crowd control. While it may not be the best of abilities is far from useless you just have to know how to use him and the abilities he has. Slash dash is a good mobility power that also deals damage but I do wish the power would get worked on radial blind stun, blind and damage boost, super jump mobility, stealth and aoe crowd control power if used with heavy impact. And radial javelin gives you damage, stun and a boost to melee damage for every enemy hit if combined with the mod furious javelin.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Archangelzz