Peacemaker Might Be A Bit Op

[Zeromanicus]

It's Gun Kata, what did you expect? Of course it's OP. :D

[Tar_Spit_Fire]

1.33% of your gun+ blind rage x 2 + slash multiplier on the infested enemies + crit multiplier = that damage, try it on high level grineer heavies and you will cry when you see the numbers while they rekt you because you are stucked in that animation. * may be im using crappy secondaries that time or i don't know lol*, but still.... this abilities might needs a LOS mechanics and a buff of 50%+ damage reduction while you are on that state less energy drain per sec.

*EDIT: oh shatter shield nvm.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Tar_Spit_Fire

[Azawarau]

1.33% of your gun+ blind rage x 2 + slash multiplier on the infested enemies + crit multiplier = that damage, try it on high level grineer heavies and you will cry when you see the numbers while they rekt you because you are stucked in that animation. * may be im using crappy secondaries that time or i don't know lol*, but still.... this abilities needs a LOS mechanics and a buff of 50%+ damage reduction while you are on that state..

*EDIT: oh shatter shield

Lvl 35 grineer didn't scare me at all when i used it....

 

Not even max power STR and they just fall

 

The heavies are the only ones that i think took more than one shot

 

Though i did get downed when i tried to use it up close :x

 

My current build is min maxed soon to be balanced for defensives

 

I like the DR suggestion to help with being immobile but i wonder if its too much after ally CC as well

[Kruglov]

I feel like its a good thing it uses our guns damage.

 

Warframe is already rather weirdly designed in that the majority of damage-dealing abilities quickly lose their flavor in higher level planets.

Almost no damage powers are % based either which causes them to suffer.

Meaning in higher tier planets, utility abilities become the only ones people use.

See:

Loki's disarm

Vauban's Everything

Rhino's Stomp

Oberon's Reckoning

Excal's Blind

Saryn's Miasma

Frost's Snowglobe

 

If anything we should be ENCOURAGING Digital Extremes to make more scalable powers like Peacemaker.

Where frames can use their killing spells at any difficulty and not be a detriment to their team.

Alot of this game's magic dies when everyone is quickly reduced to soldiers firing their guns down their hallway and ignoring most of their wizard spells.

 

Let the ability stay as it is and be the new quality bar set for how to do a damage-based ability that doesnt go into the toilet once enemies start getting even moderately tanky.

[Ragnarlee_Prime]

I tink by having a skill that scales with your weapon... Mesa just became the best WARFRAME for high level gameplay.

[ZxpferTH]

Other her ability are just bad 1 are useless and 2 are almost useless 3 idk eclipse from mirage seem much better with dmg reduction

 

so the only fun i get from her is 4 

 

cant shoot through wall too u have to seen the enemie to shoot it not like the excal or mag one

Edited November 28, 2014 by VioletX

[EchoesOfRain]

This would have been great - 

 

http://youtu.be/5_zhT_qITkY

 

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=female+gunner+awakening

 

So I'm not the only one that thought of DnF, thank God :)

 

At first, I honestly did think that Mesa's 4 would just give her op supercharged pistols to use, didn't think it would make her immobile and autotarget. Just imagine if Peacemaker was basically pistol-hysteria on steroids

[MirageKnight]

Haven't gotten Mesa yet, but If I understand the descriptions correctly, Peacemaker basically turns Mesa into a Grammaton Cleric and has her go Gunkata on any enemies around her. If so, I definitely approve.

 

If its damage is based on whatever secondary you're equipped with, only multiplied, I definitely approve. On a side note, this is something that needs to happen to Excalibur's Slash Dash, only with whatever melee weapon you're equipped with of course.

[Ronyn]

Just to get one thing out of the way-

Damage powers need to start scaling to continue being damage powers at end game.

The idea that ALL powers will eventually be more about their other aspects/utility is just plain limiting.

 

That said, so far Peacemaker seems to kick serious rear on damage.

The major drawback is that being stationary and needing line of sight means you have to put her gunslinging squishiness out in the open which is basically suicidal. I'm not sure it's a fair trade at the end of the day because you can only do damage if you're alive to do it.....

but with allies using their crowd conrol or blocking for Mesa this could create some serious opportunity in late game.

 

She seems to be a true class cannon type frame that is just too fragile to expect to get far alone but will be downright epic DEEPS in the right groups.

 

EDIT: Of course I still wonder if her 3 has more potential for defense than it initial seems to.

I'll need at least a few more play sessions before I can give more than first impressions and gut reactions.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Ronyn

[Azawarau]

I feel like its a good thing it uses our guns damage.

 

Warframe is already rather weirdly designed in that the majority of damage-dealing abilities quickly lose their flavor in higher level planets.

Almost no damage powers are % based either which causes them to suffer.

Meaning in higher tier planets, utility abilities become the only ones people use.

See:

Loki's disarm

Vauban's Everything

Rhino's Stomp

Oberon's Reckoning

Excal's Blind

Saryn's Miasma

Frost's Snowglobe

 

If anything we should be ENCOURAGING Digital Extremes to make more scalable powers like Peacemaker.

Where frames can use their killing spells at any difficulty and not be a detriment to their team.

Alot of this game's magic dies when everyone is quickly reduced to soldiers firing their guns down their hallway and ignoring most of their wizard spells.

 

Let the ability stay as it is and be the new quality bar set for how to do a damage-based ability that doesnt go into the toilet once enemies start getting even moderately tanky.

Scaling on its own isnt a bad thing

 

As long as you arent directly and permanently scaling with enemies ala polarize

 

Just to get one thing out of the way-

Damage powers need to start scaling to continue being damage powers at end game.

The idea that ALL powers will eventually be more about their other aspects/utility is just plain limiting.

 

That said, so far Peacemaker seems to kick serious rear on damage.

The major drawback is that being stationary and needing line of sight means you have to put her gunslinging squishiness out in the open which is basically suicidal. I'm not sure it's a fair trade at the end of the day because you can only do damage if you're alive to do it.....

but with allies using their crowd conrol or blocking for Mesa this could create some serious opportunity in late game.

 

She seems to be a true class cannon type frame that is just too fragile to expect to get far alone but will be downright epic DEEPS in the right groups.

 

EDIT: Of course I still wonder if her 3 has more potential for defense than it initial seems to.

I'll need at least a few more play sessions before I can give more than first impressions and gut reactions.

Honestly

 

With the range and power it has you can just kinda sit and shoot

 

At the distance it goes enemies barely ever shoot and youll far more often than not snipe them before they have a chance to

 

With about any CC her squishiness becomes a null point especially combined with that range

 

On the other hand....

 

Her other 3 powers still stink

 

Her 1 gets a nice damage boost but that really wont get you far at all...

 

2 is kind of a throw out just because more than an actual thing. Keep it up for passive utility

 

3 is..... Well she has to get hit for itt o work from what ive seen and she really cant afford to be hit that much

[Ronyn]

Scaling on its own isnt a bad thing

As long as you arent directly and permanently scaling with enemies ala polarize

Alright. Where does the worry about long term scaling come from?

In the average game with a progression model the player's strength grows proportionate enough to the enemies strength to beat all missions.

The exceptions are endless modes and those are intentionally meant to eventually kill the player. There is no real victory.

And in that case it wont matter if a few things scale infinitely because enough things wont that you'll eventually die.

So end point: I think that scaling to end game is standard and should be worked on. Beyond that we just shouldn't be very concerned about it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Honestly

With the range and power it has you can just kinda sit and shoot

At the distance it goes enemies barely ever shoot and youll far more often than not snipe them before they have a chance to

I suppose if you post up before enemies start spawning this makes sense.

Seems like if the animation would just go off faster it could also be used in more situations.

Cause even with a natural talent mod it feels painfully slow to get shooting.

 

With about any CC her squishiness becomes a null point especially combined with that range

-

2 is kind of a throw out just because more than an actual thing. Keep it up for passive utility

Her 2 is CC on gun toting enemies if cast near them. Of course I haven't yet gauged its effective range.

And I haven't taken her against infested yet to see what, if anything, it does on them.

 

3 is..... Well she has to get hit for itt o work from what ive seen and she really cant afford to be hit that much

It seems like it's supposed to offset her squishiness. So far it doesn't seem to do its job that well for me past early stuff.

----

But again...this is all my initial gut reactions to something I am still trying to figure out.

I'm certainly not confident enough in my understanding of her capabilities to attempt to defend any of my positions about her.

[Arrichion]

Take Mesa to a high level mission and then tell me her 4 is overpowered. At low level it's a murder machine, but in the t4 intercept I took her to last night pressing 4 meant little more than a quick trip to the floor. The damage on high level enemies is very, very bad, and being rooted in place means they gun you down fast. 

[Ronyn]

Haven't gotten Mesa yet, but If I understand the descriptions correctly, Peacemaker basically turns Mesa into a Grammaton Cleric and has her go Gunkata on any enemies around her. If so, I definitely approve.

Yep. At least the offensive aspect of the Grammaton Cleric anyway.

The difference is that the Grammaton Cleric is dodging bullets while firing at enemies.

Mesa's peacemaker has no such effect. 

Her 3 skill is meant to make cover the defensive aspect but as I said earlier I can't figure out how effective it actually is yet.

Theoretically using the 3 and 4 combo would bring her to equilibrium levels of awesome.

[Azawarau]

Alright. Where does the worry about long term scaling come from?

In the average game with a progression model the player's strength grows proportionate enough to the enemies strength to beat all missions.

The exceptions are endless modes and those are intentionally meant to eventually kill the player. There is no real victory.

And in that case it wont matter if a few things scale infinitely because enough things wont that you'll eventually die.

So end point: I think that scaling to end game is standard and should be worked on. Beyond that we just shouldn't be very concerned about it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I suppose if you post up before enemies start spawning this makes sense.

Seems like if the animation would just go off faster it could also be used in more situations.

Cause even with a natural talent mod it feels painfully slow to get shooting.

 

Her 2 is CC on gun toting enemies if cast near them. Of course I haven't yet gauged its effective range.

And I haven't taken her against infested yet to see what, if anything, it does on them.

 

It seems like it's supposed to offset her squishiness. So far it doesn't seem to do its job that well for me past early stuff.

----

But again...this is all my initial gut reactions to something I am still trying to figure out.

I'm certainly not confident enough in my understanding of her capabilities to attempt to defend any of my positions about her.

Youre totally ignoring that most games dont scale infinitely

 

Its an entirely different case because of this

 

Powers should get you very far but not equal whether the enemy is lvl 100 or 1000

 

The victory is getting as far as possible and cashing in on rewards and EXP

 

I havnt yet made a stand on her either but already a few people jump to the conclusion and react o0n it

 

Its funny because theyre causing the issue for themselves

 

Take Mesa to a high level mission and then tell me her 4 is overpowered. At low level it's a murder machine, but in the t4 intercept I took her to last night pressing 4 meant little more than a quick trip to the floor. The damage on high level enemies is very, very bad, and being rooted in place means they gun you down fast. 

Define high level cause lvl 35 grineer who have the highest armor

 

Not very scary at all

 

Corrupted and infested are equally disappointing

Edited November 29, 2014 by Haldos
Cleaning.

[fatpig84]

The trade off is that you are rooted.

And my friend bought her to a ceres syndicate intercept.

 

Did not end well once a napalm or bombard fired his payload. 

Mesa CC is at best quite wonky. However she synergies VERY well with a disarm loki, if you are going to play her as a 4 frame, since she will be standing there pressing 4.

 

But ultimately 35 is still too low to use as a ceiling, we should be balancing up to level 50 as syndicate content is meant to be played regularly.

Edited November 28, 2014 by fatpig84

[Ronyn]

Youre totally ignoring that most games dont scale infinitely

Its an entirely different case because of this

Powers should get you very far but not equal whether the enemy is lvl 100 or 1000

The victory is getting as far as possible and cashing in on rewards and EXP

What you say I'm "ignoring" is the exact part I covered under the exceptions.<-lets please not do that whole dance again.

And when I say no REAL victory I mean that the end of the mission will always be death.

Not that there isn't a benefit...just that the missions cant be literally won.

And still.....the primary point is why care much about what happens in these infinite modes after levels equivalent to end game?

It's the point of the game that balance goes to poodoo by design. I think we are better off focusing on the part of the game that is actually meant to balance.

 

I havnt yet made a stand on her either but already a few people jump to the conclusion and react o0n it

Its funny because theyre causing the issue for themselves

I just noticed that her 2 keeps causing the weapon malfunction effect to enemies in range the entire time its up.

With my current mod set up of stretch, continuity and (that one nightmare mod for duration) I have like 30 seconds where I can run around messing up the enemies ability to shoot at me. As long as I kill the enemies before they recover from the animation they don't even get a shot off.

This has shown a huge improvement to my survivability.

 

Going to test her number 3 more next chance I get.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Ronyn

[GinKenshin]

I'm late to this thread but you say Peacemaker is OP, well I'm just wondering what do you thin about Ash's BS (bladestorm and another thing)? if you think it's "OP" then I agree on what you're coming from, but BS is THE most OP ultimate in the game, and peacemaker (in my opinion....and no, I haven't played mesa yet) doesn't scale with it, it doesn't get effected by any power mods and the most dmg I seen it do (through videos) is 44k with crit, I'm guessing it keeps shooting enemies until they die so I'd say YES, that is OP, non of the other ultimate abilities can guarantee that the enemy will die except BS and now peacemaker (think?)

having said that, I still consider BS as the most OP and non-skill ability in the game, with peacemaker at least you have to position yourself in the right place, and again, it doesn't get stronger by mods, unlike BS, but remember, most of mesa's abilities aren't that "damage dealing", so an "OP" ability is a must to balanced it, 

EDIT: another reason why peacemaker isn't that OP (it still is, but not that far) that it doesn't give immunity, you can still get shoot when using it.....and last time I checked no ash died when he's using his BS

Edited November 28, 2014 by Kenshin98

[jrkong]

Personally, I'm all in favor of the peacemaker's damage being a multiplied version of your current secondary, that makes it scale much better in harder/endless missions compared to other 4s that do pure damage (ex. Mag's Crush)

Ehhhh I'm a tad on the ledge atm it deals like 3x as much as regular 4s atm if this is anything to show for it...

[EchoesOfRain]

Not sure if anyone mentioned this before, but...I got a chance to use Peacemaker on Vor in a void defense, and I had no problems getting every shot to hit. It tore right through him. This thing is beast on bosses

[MirageKnight]

Yep. At least the offensive aspect of the Grammaton Cleric anyway.

The difference is that the Grammaton Cleric is dodging bullets while firing at enemies.

Mesa's peacemaker has no such effect. 

Her 3 skill is meant to make cover the defensive aspect but as I said earlier I can't figure out how effective it actually is yet.

Theoretically using the 3 and 4 combo would bring her to equilibrium levels of awesome.

 

 

If you can cast 3 then 4, then that would definitely do nicely.

[immolator1001]

It isn't OP at all, you can't move. Even with your 3 you get destroyed.

Take it to Pluto and you have to be super careful using it so you don't just instantly go down. Also the damage doesn't scale well.

Basically at high levels you stand in the middle of the room getting shot at.

[Azawarau]

The trade off is that you are rooted.

And my friend bought her to a ceres syndicate intercept.

 

Did not end well once a napalm or bombard fired his payload. 

Mesa CC is at best quite wonky. However she synergies VERY well with a disarm loki, if you are going to play her as a 4 frame, since she will be standing there pressing 4.

 

But ultimately 35 is still too low to use as a ceiling, we should be balancing up to level 50 as syndicate content is meant to be played regularly.

Honestly that hasnt been a problem at all except when i try to use it in the enemies face

 

In which case im kind of asking to die

 

And even thats been less of a problem since ive finished my build on her

 

Fleeting expertise,intensify,streamline,flow,transient fortitude,narrow minded,vitality,redirection

 

Evens out all of her powers and she has defenses and sutainability

 

What you say I'm "ignoring" is the exact part I covered under the exceptions.<-lets please not do that whole dance again.

And when I say no REAL victory I mean that the end of the mission will always be death.

Not that there isn't a benefit...just that the missions cant be literally won.

And still.....the primary point is why care much about what happens in these infinite modes after levels equivalent to end game?

It's the point of the game that balance goes to poodoo by design. I think we are better off focusing on the part of the game that is actually meant to balance.

 

I just noticed that her 2 keeps causing the weapon malfunction effect to enemies in range the entire time its up.

With my current mod set up of stretch, continuity and (that one nightmare mod for duration) I have like 30 seconds where I can run around messing up the enemies ability to shoot at me. As long as I kill the enemies before they recover from the animation they don't even get a shot off.

This has shown a huge improvement to my survivability.

 

Going to test her number 3 more next chance I get.

Infinite missions function that way because they have to

 

And theres no proper way to balance between those and regular missions without flatlining content somewhere along the line

 

A solid solution if thats your worry  is to cap endless at 60 minutes

 

For my build ive made everything she has even out with efficiency being the only thing thats maxed

 

Only issue im havinf is choosing an aura

 

Rejuvenation seems like the best since i can use her 3 and 4 and rely on it to heal me for the very scrapes i get at a distance

 

Though without rage it almost feels like a waste

 

 

It isn't OP at all, you can't move. Even with your 3 you get destroyed.

Take it to Pluto and you have to be super careful using it so you don't just instantly go down. Also the damage doesn't scale well.

Basically at high levels you stand in the middle of the room getting shot at.

Done

 

Cerberus pluto shooting enemies from point A and they never get close unless i run out of energy

 

Kiste Ceres i stand by both doors where enemies come out from (withing 5 meters) and kill them as thy open the door while getting the ones from the other stair and the ones coming at the pod from the other side

 

The thing shoots so far that her being immobile doesnt matter as long as youre at a good enough range when you start to clear the area and keep it clean

 

Again my build isnt max power STR and i dont have the most powerful secondary or build (its centered on utility more than damage) but still wreck grineer at 30-35

Edited November 29, 2014 by Haldos
Cleaning.

[immolator1001]

Donee

 

Cerberus pluto shooting enemies from point A and they never get close unless i run out of energy

 

Kiste Ceres i stand by both doors where enemies come out from (withing 5 meters) and kill them as thy open the door while getting the ones from the other stair and the ones coming at the pod from the other side

 

The thing shoots so far that her being immobile doesnt matter as long as youre at a good enough range when you start to clear the area and keep it clean

 

Again my build isnt max power STR and i dont have the most powerful secondary or build (its centered on utility more than damage) but still wreck grineer at 30-35

Mine is max efficiency with a bonus to STR

She can kill them fast but if you stand anywhere where there are actually enemies who don't come one at a time through a hallway ;) like at B they wreck you.

Burning through 100 enery I'm if I finish with 100 health with rank 9 vitality and max rank redirection.

[Azawarau]

To be absolutely clear on her power

 

 

<Link

 

And here is everything i had on

 

 

 

Mediocre gun build and half build frame (She was lvl 15 when i entered the mission and needs 2 more forma before shes finished)

 

With a max build the bombards (lvl 35-40) dont get the time to land hit like you see in this video and thats with near no ally CC (There was a zephyr tornadoing i think)

 

 

 

Mine is max efficiency with a bonus to STR

She can kill them fast but if you stand anywhere where there are actually enemies who don't come one at a time through a hallway ;) like at B they wreck you.

Burning through 100 enery I'm if I finish with 100 health with rank 9 vitality and max rank redirection.

You can see them coming in groups from all directions

 

She one shots anything tat isnt a heavy and even those dont get far

Edited November 29, 2014 by Haldos
Cleaning.

[LGear]

Haven't gotten Mesa yet, but If I understand the descriptions correctly, Peacemaker basically turns Mesa into a Grammaton Cleric and has her go Gunkata on any enemies around her. If so, I definitely approve.

 

 

I approve of this ref.

 

And yes, from the vids of the ability in action it's basically Gunkata, which is awesome.