Problem With Walls: Mesa Is Grindwall, Waitwall, Rng Wall

[hijinks_the_turtle]

The fact is that DE decided to put together two of the most annoying ways to get a frame together.  Vauban alerts and Hydroid farming.  Sure farming a boss for parts isn't so bad in itself, but when you have to grind for beacons in a place that doesn't always show up in the star chart at random times that might drop for you for 3 times before you can craft the beacon + the amount of time to craft them just to get a chance at Mesa's parts is really annoying and absolutely unnecessary.  

 

I know DE wants people to play their game longer and not have people get bored too fast or get content so easily due to build up in resources.  ....This however drives away players.  

 

You can't just expect people to deal with this hassle, you should have gone with a Mirage-like quest route with the riddles for clues to head to quest only nightmare modes or hard missions with Salad V appearing in each one, getting harder each time.  Now sprinkle some lore in with Lotus or Salad speaking.  Bam, now there's your quest, it should also be in Eris permanently, since this makes sense.  This is something difficult, and something a little different compared to other stuff.  Heck, why don't you have Salad V send in Infested Mesa as an assassin when you fight in infested invasions just for fun.  That's how you spice things up!

Edited November 30, 2014 by hijinks_the_turtle

[DSpite]

I've spent plenty of money on this game in the past, partially on the basis that my money would be used to further development of the game in a way that was customer friendly. I've spent around 200 bucks on this game. I'm also a founder. I've also put over a thousand hours into the game, which also has monetary value as many dying MMO's that have gone F2P have realized.

 

I damn well have the right to question decisions the developer makes, and exercise that right freely and often. DE encourages us to voice our opinions, as they have stated many times in the past. If you don't like how DE works with the community to develop their game, maybe YOU should go somewhere else.

 

The moment I consider that what you think and say actually sounds like "an opinion" and not the knee jerk reaction of content that had been out an hour? I'll let open your mouth and talk, without saying anything.

 

If you had a functioning brain, you would realize that any content that goes up in a game, ANY game, is in testing mode. Logs are generated, metrics are looked at. These, are adjusted depending on what happens.

 

Unless you let this run for one frigging day so DE can see how far everything is progressing, they won't get to see anything, to CHANGE anything. THIS is why I think you're idiots.

 

Update goes up, and within hours "It's all broken, jump on forums".

 

You don't have ANY "rights" here. Your account, just like mine, can be shut down for any reason, at any time, regardless of having spent $0 or $5000 in this game.

 

The NEXT time an update comes, none of you will AGAIN wait 24 hours, and just play what you are given and THEN start feedback, you will do this hype threads AGAIN within an hour and think you are entitled to it.

 

Lets see who is right.

[akira_him]

the whole grinding+RNG+time wall,

so people will pay for Mesa, which I won't pay because it just promotes DE to go further and makes future frames even harder to get

 

and I checked the twitter, 6 navs in 48 hours, all of them are in the mid-night or working hours in my time zone

I manged to get 3, just because I am in a study week

Worst birthday present ever from DE

 

I think DE should watch Extra Credits

Edited November 30, 2014 by akira_him

[Xriborg]

The moment I consider that what you think and say actually sounds like "an opinion" and not the knee jerk reaction of content that had been out an hour? I'll let open your mouth and talk, without saying anything.

 

If you had a functioning brain, you would realize that any content that goes up in a game, ANY game, is in testing mode. Logs are generated, metrics are looked at. These, are adjusted depending on what happens.

 

Unless you let this run for one frigging day so DE can see how far everything is progressing, they won't get to see anything, to CHANGE anything. THIS is why I think you're idiots.

 

Update goes up, and within hours "It's all broken, jump on forums".

 

You don't have ANY "rights" here. Your account, just like mine, can be shut down for any reason, at any time, regardless of having spent $0 or $5000 in this game.

 

The NEXT time an update comes, none of you will AGAIN wait 24 hours, and just play what you are given and THEN start feedback, you will do this hype threads AGAIN within an hour and think you are entitled to it.

 

Lets see who is right.

 

I, as well as many people here, used our functioning brains to do a little math and realize that this was going to be the biggest grind yet. It's really not hard to see. I don't need to go and test out the grind when it's laid out before me. It will require, at a minimum, 30 missions to get Mesa. And we all know the chances of it being the minimum amount are not high. For most, it will be more like 60 missions. For some unluckier people, it could be as high as 120. Hell, it could be over 200 if the RNG really screws you over.

 

And as long as I'm playing DE's game, paying to support it, coming to the forums, and obeying their rules to post, I DO have a right to talk here. I think the only one here who is overstepping their boundaries is the one insinuating that I, and the other people here, don't have a functioning brain.

[TheDoctah]

I, as well as many people here, used our functioning brains to do a little math and realize that this was going to be the biggest grind yet. It's really not hard to see. I don't need to go and test out the grind when it's laid out before me. It will require, at a minimum, 30 missions to get Mesa. And we all know the chances of it being the minimum amount are not high. For most, it will be more like 60 missions. For some unluckier people, it could be as high as 120. Hell, it could be over 200 if the RNG really screws you over.

 

And as long as I'm playing DE's game, paying to support it, coming to the forums, and obeying their rules to post, I DO have a right to talk here. I think the only one here who is overstepping their boundaries is the one insinuating that I, and the other people here, don't have a functioning brain.

Just ignore him, I don't think many people take him seriously anyway. DSpite that is.

[Xriborg]

Just ignore him, I don't think many people take him seriously anyway. DSpite that is.

 

But more posts makes the topic more visible. If I ignore him, he might use his functioning brain and stop helping us raise awareness!

[akira_him]

The moment I consider that what you think and say actually sounds like "an opinion" and not the knee jerk reaction of content that had been out an hour? I'll let open your mouth and talk, without saying anything.

 

If you had a functioning brain, you would realize that any content that goes up in a game, ANY game, is in testing mode. Logs are generated, metrics are looked at. These, are adjusted depending on what happens.

 

Unless you let this run for one frigging day so DE can see how far everything is progressing, they won't get to see anything, to CHANGE anything. THIS is why I think you're idiots.

 

Update goes up, and within hours "It's all broken, jump on forums".

 

You don't have ANY "rights" here. Your account, just like mine, can be shut down for any reason, at any time, regardless of having spent $0 or $5000 in this game.

 

The NEXT time an update comes, none of you will AGAIN wait 24 hours, and just play what you are given and THEN start feedback, you will do this hype threads AGAIN within an hour and think you are entitled to it.

 

Lets see who is right.

ever heard of orokin derelict key's crafting time reduction?

ever heard of what happened to VIvier and syndicate points?

all these changes came true because of OUR feedback which came from OUR non-functional brain

 

If we don't talk to DE, saying that "Hell DE you're doing it wrong to get my money", they will just keep doing it

ever heard of "losing trust to the company and never pay again"?

[S7ORM]

Here's what I'd like to see:

Instead of specific infestation invasions giving Alad V Navs as reward, how about you just get them whenever you complete any infestation invasion mission (that is, each 1 mission, not each 3)?

What I believe would be an option more toward [DE]'s ideals:

How about just every time you complete a set (of 3) of infestation invasions, you get the nav coord in addition to whatever is promised by the faction fighting the infestation. It's like "Hey, thanks for helping us, take these fieldrons -- oh you found something during the battle? Well, you deserve to keep it, for killing all those infestation."

[Coatduck]

Vauban works the same

With Mesa it takes 30 missions, assuming you farm the keys yourself and don't buy them. All of the coordinate invasions have been either defense or survival so far, which means that you spend at least 10 minutes on each one, and then the alad mission probably takes at least 5, so that's 4 hours and 45 minutes of just grind, assuming you get every single part on the first try. Personally I have 4 helmets and 3 chassis. Realistically you can look at doubling that, and on top of that you have to wait until a nav coord comes up, then hope you can finish all 3 missions before the node is done.

Vauban pieces go on alert for 40-120 minutes at a time, quite frequently. You go in, you run an exterminate, or worst case a 10 minute survival/defense, and at the end of it you're guaranteed the part you worked for. 30 minutes max.

[LABAL]

You see, DE? Nobody stands by your side. Not anymore.

[Xriborg]

You see, DE? Nobody stands by your side. Not anymore.

 

I dunno if I'd go that far. But I doubt anyone more than a very small minority will back DE on this Mesa grind.

[akira_him]

I dunno if I'd go that far. But I doubt anyone more than a very small minority will back DE on this Mesa grind.

Because these ppl brought Mesa

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

I dunno if I'd go that far. But I doubt anyone more than a very small minority will back DE on this Mesa grind.

I don't know. Sometimes the reward makes the grind feel good. 

I'll see when I get the update.

I know getting Vauban felt pretty rewarding, but was hardly a grind.

Stalker feels terrible to farm.

Vay Hek was okay.

Oxium for Zephyr was meh.

[ssfsx17]

Because these ppl brought Mesa

I bought Mesa but I don't support the grind.

 

If I knew what it takes for free players to get her, I would not have bought her.

[Grander.Alderman]

For me, the biggest problem with these walls isn't so much that I can't get Mesa, I could just buy her if I was really desperate (Could, not would.), but even then I still don't get to fight infested Alad V. 

For f*ck's sake, I haven't even fought the new Vay Hek yet because of the sh*tty grind wall he's behind.

Edited November 30, 2014 by Grander.Alderman

[akira_him]

I bought Mesa but I don't support the grind.

If I knew what it takes for free players to get her, I would not have bought her.

I didn't say everybody brought her backs DE, anyway

I have the same feeling like you when nekros was out and I brought him before they reduce the key crafting time

Makes things hard to get, hope it makes some money, if it's not, make it even harder is just not the good way to do it

Edited November 30, 2014 by akira_him

[TheGreatZiltoid]

Maybe I'm the only one that doesn't seem to be bothered by how we get mesa. I just wish there were more frequent invasions with the nav reward (or add in an enemy just like farming for hydroid where we can farm it at our leisure) I really did not mind farming for hydroid, it didn't take too long at all because I had clan mates doing it with me and we pooled our resources.  I think we need some long term goals that slow us down and make us actually play the game. Something you guys fail to realize, is they could simply make it so you must use plat to buy new warframes, yet they don't. Too many people expect instant handouts.

[Xriborg]

I don't know. Sometimes the reward makes the grind feel good. 

I'll see when I get the update.

I know getting Vauban felt pretty rewarding, but was hardly a grind.

Stalker feels terrible to farm.

Vay Hek was okay.

Oxium for Zephyr was meh.

 

I can agree with the grinding making the reward all the sweeter, but I only agree with that if there's a guarantee of progress for your grind.

 

If you're sitting on 2/3 parts for Mesa, then go through all 9 missions to get another set of coordinates, assemble the key, go kill M Alad V again, and get rewarded for a part you already had? Good work, you just did 10 missions for nothing.

 

I don't like gambling the time I spend grinding in this game. This is just too much chance/wait/grind all stacked on top of each other. I don't think it's fair that a lucky player can get Mesa in 30 missions, while another unlucky player might take over 100 missions to get the same result. Imagine if you only had a 50% chance to get paid at the end of your workday. How would you feel then? How would you feel if you had a bad string of luck at work and didn't get paid for a week, while the guy you sit next to gets lucky and receives his salary every day that week?

[Temp0ralfool]

I left after mirage came out (Zephyr is the newest frame I've obtained, and Limbo does not interest me), I came back in the hopes that Mesa would be reasonable to obtain. my hopes were for nought, she is worse than Hydroid.

[DrMeowmix]

I dont mind grind when there is quantifiable progress to be seen. If you play/played runescape and ever went for a skill cape (had to get level 99 in a skill) you know what it means to grind and see progress. To get to level 99 from 98 you needed more experience than it took to get to level 95 in the first place. Worth it in the end? yes. its an amasing acomplishment and you get to feel good about it.

 

But what Weissseher said is true. this isn't a grind, its luck or persistance. You either get lucky enough to be able to be on the game when the alearts start or you stay on all day to be on when the start. I personally have gotten neither and as a result i will more than likely have to leech runs off of others provided i dont have to have the key my self to do the run.  There is no progress to be seen other than "yay i was lucky enough to be on when it happened"  To put it in perspective it would be like if in WoW there was a shop that would randomly spawn a new legendary just on the ground for anyone to grab. The only way to get this legendary is if you are online and at that shop when it spawns and then have the luck to click it before anyone else. Or you could just shell out money to buy it. That would p-i-s-s alot of people off as it is doing here.

 

EDIT: spaced out the word p-i-s-s because censor considers it a curse for some odd reason

I actually DID used to play Runescape, Grinded out a total of 5 skillcapes (Ranged, Cooking, Fletching, Smithing, Defense)  and I totally understand that you can see quantifiable progress. It could however be argued that there are still walls of sorts. For example: if you are not obscenely rich in Runescape, you're pretty much limited to the Cooking and Fletching skillcapes. Not many players will ever have enough money to get Smithing or Prayer. Smithing RUINED me (I did it before clan citadels and stupid fast exp). So in that way, raising the capital required for more prestigious skillcapes is either a stupidly long grind or you getting ludicrously fortunate with RNG (Like getting 4 Armadyl hilts in 5 runs on Kree).

 

As for a Legendary item randomly being dropped on the ground, that's a bit of a stretch. Mesa isn't exactly an ubergodtier frame, and there's no quantifiable progress in clicking loot that randomly appears on the ground, Mesa grind/rngwall is a bit different.

 

I really do understand where you're coming from, and I understand your frustration. I understand that I'm in a microscopic minority. But to me, if I log on and get a mutalist coordinate, that is quantifiable progress. Like I stated in my first post, perhaps a few tweaks are in order. Perhaps if they made Infested Alad a bit more accessible, made the mutalist coords an alert reward instead of an invasion reward, I would not be opposed if that were to occur, but I'm also going to enjoy the long haul to a new frame if it doesn't. Let's just agree to disagree.

 

EDIT: stil lerning 2 spel

Edited December 1, 2014 by DrMeowmix

[Liminal]

I haven't even fought the new Vay Hek yet because of the sh*tty grind wall he's behind.

That is the worst part of it all. They are not only locking frames, but bosses, content that should be part of the base game, behind grind walls.

So if you don't want to grind, there is less game.

I guess I'm not the only one who sees how wrong that is. It works against DE's interests. No game ever benefits from hiding playable content like that.

[BradKing]

I can only agree with most people here: this is a step too far.

 

The combination of RNG, grinding, waiting, more waiting and more RNG grinding is just so annoying. For me the worst thing is the battlepay system: you need to run 3 successful invasion missions, within a 'timed' limit, then wait for the reward. What actually happens is that some people will keep running that particular invasion to get the nav beacon sooner, taking away play time for people that don't have 3 runs yet. Also, people that don't have a chance to get 3 runs in, will still try to do it, taking away more play time for people that could have made it.

 

I noticed a nav beacon battlepay through chrome addon, logged in, started first run with 14.8% remaining, 10 wave defense (sigh, almost sure I wasn't going to make it then). We have a good group, start second run with 9.4% remaining. Now, the realist in me was basically telling me to quit and get back to other stuff, since there is so little chance I would make it with every run costing more than 5%, but the squad was up for it, so we went on. The last run started at 3.9% and we failed to complete before the invasion was done. 

The way it is set up now, we not only failed to get a nav beacon, we also got annoyed playing, we annoyed others by lowering their chances of getting a beacon by playing (in a pve game) and we're no closer to getting a run.

 

Now I did one run last weekend, my regular squad managed to get enough time in game to play and we were lucky to see a nav invasion spawn, and I loved the mission. Sadly most of them will just not get Mesa because of the grind and out of principle, these guys all put in quite a bit of cash, most are founders and we all agreed this is just sad.

 

I can't believe most of the devs & artists are happy with this: you spend a lot of time developing a new boss, frame, animations, interactions, not just because it's your job (I hope), but also because you want to see people enjoying their time with them.

 

It's the same for Vay Hek and most things Archwing, it's just not playable for many people and even people who have plat chose not to spend it on these parts, because they just don't agree with the way it's set up. Why not have the alad V beacons be normal drops, or drops like the golem nav beacons, or even reward drops for ODD captures? Isn't the RNG from the boss, the RNG from drops and the 1hour, 20k credits enough of a sink? Do you really want people to not play the game to enjoy playing the game? To buy all the new things and never play the new things, get bored and just stop playing? It's not like the game is easy to really get started on, a lot of newbies just can't take the steep steps into mid game, in my experience. 

 

I really hope you'll change the method of getting nav beacons, it's chasing out people that are really good for the game and for the community, people that pull others away because where is the fun in a coop pve game that you can't play with your friends?

[Tyreuzs]

[BoomyGordo]

That is the worst part of it all. They are not only locking frames, but bosses, content that should be part of the base game, behind grind walls.

So if you don't want to grind, there is less game.

I guess I'm not the only one who sees how wrong that is. It works against DE's interests. No game ever benefits from hiding playable content like that.

 

this. i completely forgot to touch upon this topic in my original rage post. I dont want to run the same tired content more i want to try out the new mission and new boss! but i cant simply because i have yet to have the good fortune to get a nav cord. At this point i will have to either rely on alliance or leach off some one in recruiting.

[Xriborg]

Losing hope that this issue will get a response, despite half of the feedback threads being about this topic, and this thread's original post approaching 250 upvotes.

 

I'm really hoping DE isn't just going to remain silent and hope this whole thing blows over.