Mods, The Backbone Of Warframe, Are Boring

[Playford]

This is something I wanted to talk about for a while.

 

Let me seperate mods into two broad categories; fun, and boring.

Note that they are not automatically good if they are in the fun category, and not automatically bad if they are in the boring category, there are good and bad mods in both categories. This seperation is purely based on what they add to gameplay from a mechanical standpoint.

 

So what is fun? What is boring?

 

Fun are mechanical changes, or additions that allow you to do things you normally can't.

Examples are Rage, Quick Thinking, Reflex Guard, Reflection, Retribution, Heavy Impact, all of these and a few others add something that should allow you to change your playstyle, or create a completely new one.

 

The problem however that these mods are mostly (some have found a niche in some builds) overshadowed by the boring ones. Redirection, Vitality, Focus Intensify, Serration, Speed Trigger, Fast Hands, Hornet Strike, Gunslinger, Quickdraw, all statistical changes, all boring and uninteresting. I put these in and they make numbers bigger (or smaller in a few cases), woo.

 

"So just use fun mods then :D" you say.

 

And here is the problem. The boring mods are necessary to survive and deal enough damage to be a contributing member of the team, and not just dead weight.

I posted this image in a thread recently about silly builds. That build is worthless beyond Mars, even then, the reason it works is not that it has good mods, it's because those are low level planets and any rank 30 'frame has enough shields, health and max level abilities to handle whatever comes their way.

Beyond Mars it doesn't matter this build makes you (nearly) immune to cc, you are going to die because you don't have enough hp/shields, and you can't help your team because your abilities are not powerful enough, or because they don't last long enough.

 

It's boring and frustrating.

 

I've been yammering on about what's fun and whats boring for a while now, what are my suggestions for improvements? If you've been reading this far that's what you want to hear?

 

I have two.

The first is simple enough, add more mods that are not simple statistical improvements, but give other types of benefits, I'll even suggest some of my own at the bottom.

 

The second suggestion will be somewhat controversial.

Nerf health, shield and damage mods into the ground.

At the same time, nerf the enemy hp/shield/armor/damage scaling.

 

If done properly, the difficulty at higher levels shouldn't change much, the nerfed mods would help, but would not be crucial to survival.

 

For example, if Redirection only added 110% shields at max rank, would you really take that, or would you take something that gives you a chance to resist knockdown? Both should be useful in their own way.

 

 

 

Suggestions for fun mods:

 

Warframes:

Desperation: power strength increases the less hp you have.

Battle Trance: casting abilites gives a (temporary) stacking buff that increases casting speed.

Juggernaut: while sprinting, inflict an impact proc and ragdoll enemies you bump into, each impact drains stamina.

Ablative Shell: after you taking enough damage, purge all status effects, and gain temporary immunity to them (damage from bleed does not count).

 

Melee weapons:

Phantasm: attacks have a chance of creating autonomus holographic decoys that distract enemies (decoys move around and attack enemies on their own, but deal no damage and have no collision hitbox).

Repeated Strikes: gain bonus damage when attacking the same enemy repeatedly, attacking a new enemy removes the bonus.

Crippling Weakness: deal bonus damage the less % hp your enemy has.

 

Ranged weapons:

Faulty Magazine: after reloading, drop the used magazine which acts as a stun grenade, dealing little damage but stunning in an area that increases in size the more rounds were in the magazine at the time of reload.

 

 

And now I realised it's well past midnight and time to sleep.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Playford

[Lunamaniac]

I agree with you on the whole, but even more than that I love your mod ideas!  

 

I would LOVE to use many of those over existing boring mods!

[soundtea]

That last one reminds me of the Tediore weapons in BL2. You used up all the bullets you had left in the magazine, but you were able to throw the gun as an explosive, more power equal to the bullets you had left. I'd imagine it'd work well on Latron rifles and the shotguns.

[Rakshal]

Those mod suggestions all sound really interesting.

[Little-Cunny]

sounds like ur tryna put science n fiction together. >:D i laik it

[Bernkastal]

Agree with the 'interesting' mods/adaptations point.

[Domesticon]

I'd use at least one of those mods in every build. Do want.

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

Moved to a more appropriate subforum.

[KracsNZ]

Your first suggestion I don't want. DE have given 10 slots now for warframes (yes, on the old system you could potentially have had 12 if you formaed all your power slots), that allows allot of customization but with compromise. You want an radial disarm Loki, dropout duration. You want an ninja Loki, dropout range. There are so many slots you should be able to add in 1 or 2 of your 'fun' mods and still be effective. Some of your 'fun' mods are already requirements on some builds, i.e. Rage Oberon, Heavy Impact Zephyr.

 

The idea with all of the stat based mods is to allow you to customize your playstyle but forces you to compromise. Yes, you're gonna want one shield/life mod otherwise you will be a glass cannon. But it isn't necessary, played with several skilled ranged DPS builds on long T4 defenses that had none (they just had to be careful of corrupted venomous eximus, and on a well-oiled team they're usually put down pretty quickly).

 

Yes I understand the build you posted is exaggerated to highlight a point, but you built a one-trick show-pony and expected it to run steeplechase? A build focused so heavily on a fraction of the game is bound to fail.

 

Most of your mod ideas I like. The only one I have a problem with is Desperation. If the damage buff at low health was significant you'd end up with godly Rhino (Ironskin) and Trinity (Link) builds, safely running around with low health.

[KarmicRex]

I agree with you. But i think at this point it is something impossible to change.

[Aspari]

Really liking those mod suggestions.

 

I think another thing that might have to happen is to more or less normalize offensive and defensive stats. In my opinion, mods should enhance the weapon or the Warframe, but they shouldn't -make- the Warframe.

[Riot_Inducer]

Definitely agree with the ideas and sentiment of this thread. I doubt it will change honestly but the stat modifiers of the mods in this game are really nuts. I mean maybe it's just my coming from ME3 but there the largest stable damage boost one could apply to their weapons was somewhere around 200% and that was utilizing consumable boost items for about 75 of that 200. Utilizing specific abilities and builds you could add an additional 30-70% to that.

 

Then you look at warframe and a single mod can boost the damage of your gun by over 200% and you can keep adding to that with mods that will give you orders of magnitude more total damage. It's just insane and means that enemy scaling has to accomidate for a absolutely massive gulf of player power. Everything from an unmodded Mk-1 weapon to a multi-forma prime weapon with max mods. The sheer numerical difference in stats is absolutely absurd. How do you balance things for that kind of range of power? 

[EchoesOfRain]

It'd be nice if the Vitality, Redirection, power strength, power effeciency, etc mods all scaled with your frame (or weapon) level. This way we also don't have to waste the time dumping cores into vitality, redirection, and such. Once a frame reaches lv 30, these mods would then be at max.

 

Also, perhaps the ability tab could have sliders, where you could adjust how much power, range, duration, etc you want on your skills. This way people can accurately adjust their stats to their fitting. On each slider, mid point is the base stat. Dragging a slider more than halfway would force another slider to go down.

 

This would probably require a lot of work, but I think this would add a LOT more customization (and fun) to the game

[Playford]

Your first suggestion I don't want. DE have given 10 slots now for warframes (yes, on the old system you could potentially have had 12 if you formaed all your power slots), that allows allot of customization but with compromise. You want an radial disarm Loki, dropout duration. You want an ninja Loki, dropout range. There are so many slots you should be able to add in 1 or 2 of your 'fun' mods and still be effective. Some of your 'fun' mods are already requirements on some builds, i.e. Rage Oberon, Heavy Impact Zephyr.

 

The idea with all of the stat based mods is to allow you to customize your playstyle but forces you to compromise. Yes, you're gonna want one shield/life mod otherwise you will be a glass cannon. But it isn't necessary, played with several skilled ranged DPS builds on long T4 defenses that had none (they just had to be careful of corrupted venomous eximus, and on a well-oiled team they're usually put down pretty quickly).

 

Yes I understand the build you posted is exaggerated to highlight a point, but you built a one-trick show-pony and expected it to run steeplechase? A build focused so heavily on a fraction of the game is bound to fail.

 

Most of your mod ideas I like. The only one I have a problem with is Desperation. If the damage buff at low health was significant you'd end up with godly Rhino (Ironskin) and Trinity (Link) builds, safely running around with low health.

I'm not saying that fun mods should completley replace boring mods, they both have their place and purpose. I'm saying that because the way numbers work at the moment, boring mods are significantly more important than fun ones. Yes, a few have found their niche in specific builds on specific 'frames. But many are never used on anything else than joke builds. Seriously, have you ever heard anyone using Retribution?

Ideally, builds should use both, and skilled players will be able to switch out more of the boring mods for fun ones because skill allows them to survive, not having four digit hp/shields.

 

And yes, they are not really necessary if you have a well thought out and coordinated team. Those don't exist for soloers and public matches.

 

More of these mods will not make the already existing popular builds dissapear. Disarm Loki, stealth Loki can continue to exist and not care about a mod that increases power strength with missing hp, because none of his skills are affected by power strength (okay, Decoy is, but his other skills are far more useful).

 

And I avoided adding numbers to mod suggestions, those are easily changed when it comes to balancing and not really that important, I made those suggestions as a demonstration how to add interesting mechanics and extra effects.

 

(Also, we have 8 slots for mods, we used to have 10)

 

Two videos by Extra Credits everyone (especially DE) should watch:

Both are very relevant in how the game is designed and balanced.

 

Definitely agree with the ideas and sentiment of this thread. I doubt it will change honestly but the stat modifiers of the mods in this game are really nuts. I mean maybe it's just my coming from ME3 but there the largest stable damage boost one could apply to their weapons was somewhere around 200% and that was utilizing consumable boost items for about 75 of that 200. Utilizing specific abilities and builds you could add an additional 30-70% to that.

 

Then you look at warframe and a single mod can boost the damage of your gun by over 200% and you can keep adding to that with mods that will give you orders of magnitude more total damage. It's just insane and means that enemy scaling has to accomidate for a absolutely massive gulf of player power. Everything from an unmodded Mk-1 weapon to a multi-forma prime weapon with max mods. The sheer numerical difference in stats is absolutely absurd. How do you balance things for that kind of range of power? 

Max Hornet Strike increases damage by 220% to 320%, Barrel Diffusion + Lethal Torrent -> 320*2.8=896% dps increase. And that's without elemental damage mods and without Magnum Force. It's insane.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Playford

[LascarCapable]

Juggernaut: while sprinting, inflict an impact proc and ragdoll enemies you bump into, each impact drains stamina.

 

This + Rhino Prime. Oh god !

 

Faulty Magazine: after reloading, drop the used magazine which acts as a stun grenade, dealing little damage but stunning in an area that increases in size the more rounds were in the magazine at the time of reload.

 

Tediore ?

[Playford]

I haven't played BL2, any similairity with it is coincidental, have played Dota 2 and any similairity is not coincidental (I'm sure some have noticed).

 

Here are more suggestions because I drank coffee.

 

Warframes

None Left Behind: if someone on team is bleeding out, bonus armor and movement speed.

United We Stand: chance to resist knockdown when near allies (companions don't count).

Unstable Energy: using abilities causes nearby enemies to take damage proportional to energy used.

 

Melee weapons

Crippling Fear: critical hits that kill causes nearby enemies to become terrified.

Nothing Wasted: overkill damage is stored and used on the next attack. Kinda hard to put this one into words, but here's an example, enemy has 5 hp, you kill it with an attack that deals 20 damage, that extra 15 damage is stored and used on the next attack.

 

Ranged weapons

Shock and Awe: while shooting, enemies in a small radius around the shooter are staggered, enemies in a larger radius have their accuracy reduced (Overrides noise reduction mods, not usable on weapons that are silent by default, such as bows).

Focused Fire: if the magazine is emptied in one long burst, reload faster (only usable on fully automatic weapons).

Headhunter: headshots give a (temporary) stacking buff to damage, bodyshots remove stacks.

[VDeorsum]

very good ideas! +1 

[Vaskadar]

Bringing down all of the numbers on these 'requisite' mods is something that needs to happen for build diversity to exist.

 

Well, just bringing down the numbers inflation in general.

 

Back in the day...

 

-There were fewer enemies in an area at once

-Lower shield caps

-Lower health

-No endless modes

-No direct upgrades to weapons

-A S#&$load less emphasis on mass ultimate spam

-Power efficiency wasn't broken

 

The game was balanced around these low numbers, and it's easier to account for lower numbers when balancing.

[Koloricsi]

It'd be nice if the Vitality, Redirection, power strength, power effeciency, etc mods all scaled with your frame (or weapon) level. This way we also don't have to waste the time dumping cores into vitality, redirection, and such. Once a frame reaches lv 30, these mods would then be at max.

 

Also, perhaps the ability tab could have sliders, where you could adjust how much power, range, duration, etc you want on your skills. This way people can accurately adjust their stats to their fitting. On each slider, mid point is the base stat. Dragging a slider more than halfway would force another slider to go down.

 

This would probably require a lot of work, but I think this would add a LOT more customization (and fun) to the game

This sounds amazing, DE PLS

+1

[Blakrana]

Seriously, have you ever heard anyone using Retribution?

 

Hi, I use Retribution. It may not be the best thing ever but, for when I'm in the thick of it, the periodic Shield Damage induced Finisher + AoE stun is really, really nice. Between this and Prolonged Paralysis, my Valkyr kinda laughs at the notion of shields for defence.

 

Basically Retribution is, for me, a good 'Melee Support' mod; if you're mobile and have enough shields, that one melee attack from your flank turns into an opportunity. It's actually giving me ideas on how to make a fun Rhino build that isn't 'Apply Iron Skin, aim Automatic rifle'. And ideas for supporting Ember against Infested attacks. Stun > Accelerant > Fire Blast/World on Fire/Fireball/Heat melee of choice I guess

 

Like you say, Niche builds. For what it's worth, I have actually stopped using Pure damage mods in favour of Stabiliser/Metal Auger and the like. Elemental combos and that's about it really, with multishot for Status boosting. I have fun, but I guarantee that most people would Blacklist me from public games if they could, knowing that.

 

Doesn't really matter, Solo the only things are me, my frame and whatever I'm hunting.

 

I haven't played BL2, any similairity with it is coincidental, have played Dota 2 and any similairity is not coincidental (I'm sure some have noticed).

 

Here are more suggestions because I drank coffee.

 

Warframes

None Left Behind: if someone on team is bleeding out, bonus armor and movement speed.

United We Stand: chance to resist knockdown when near allies (companions don't count).

Unstable Energy: using abilities causes nearby enemies to take damage proportional to energy used.

 

Melee weapons

Crippling Fear: critical hits that kill causes nearby enemies to become terrified.

Nothing Wasted: overkill damage is stored and used on the next attack. Kinda hard to put this one into words, but here's an example, enemy has 5 hp, you kill it with an attack that deals 20 damage, that extra 15 damage is stored and used on the next attack.

 

Ranged weapons

Shock and Awe: while shooting, enemies in a small radius around the shooter are staggered, enemies in a larger radius have their accuracy reduced (Overrides noise reduction mods, not usable on weapons that are silent by default, such as bows).

Focused Fire: if the magazine is emptied in one long burst, reload faster (only usable on fully automatic weapons).

Headhunter: headshots give a (temporary) stacking buff to damage, bodyshots remove stacks.

 

 

I like 'No One left behind' and 'Nothing Wasted', though the latter sounds potentially exponential; I'd assume a cap to not count its own damage in the conserved damage, yes?

 

As for Headhunter, that'd be fun with a punch through sniper rifle.

[Playford]

Hi, I use Retribution. It may not be the best thing ever but, for when I'm in the thick of it, the periodic Shield Damage induced Finisher + AoE stun is really, really nice. Between this and Prolonged Paralysis, my Valkyr kinda laughs at the notion of shields for defence.

 

Basically Retribution is, for me, a good 'Melee Support' mod; if you're mobile and have enough shields, that one melee attack from your flank turns into an opportunity. It's actually giving me ideas on how to make a fun Rhino build that isn't 'Apply Iron Skin, aim Automatic rifle'. And ideas for supporting Ember against Infested attacks. Stun > Accelerant > Fire Blast/World on Fire/Fireball/Heat melee of choice I guess

 

Like you say, Niche builds. For what it's worth, I have actually stopped using Pure damage mods in favour of Stabiliser/Metal Auger and the like. Elemental combos and that's about it really, with multishot for Status boosting. I have fun, but I guarantee that most people would Blacklist me from public games if they could, knowing that.

 

Doesn't really matter, Solo the only things are me, my frame and whatever I'm hunting.

 

I like 'No One left behind' and 'Nothing Wasted', though the latter sounds potentially exponential; I'd assume a cap to not count its own damage in the conserved damage, yes?

 

As for Headhunter, that'd be fun with a punch through sniper rifle.

You see, this is awesome, you found a series of conditions and are using the game mechanics to your advantage, this is how it should be done, and this is what the mod system should be about.

But the problem is that such builds are not really "endgame enough" to be useful and it all comes back to the numbers being really, really silly once you go past a certain point.

 

Regarding 'Nothing Wasted', yeah, there should be some damage cap based on the rank of the mod, much like Energy Channel.

[LtZefar]

Rhino would be insanely powerful now that his Iron Skin has such massive amount of health. Unless you go and nerf that one as well. But then Warframes such as Trinity and Loki would shine because they can brush off damage in a good way. Trinity with high damage reduction and Loki with Invisible.

 

But lets spot some other problems here.

 

Reducing shield and health gain from the mods and at the same time reducing enemy health and damage will still only make shield and health mods more important.

Because I still need that protection and health to take the hits. Just because you lower the damage doesn't mean new options will show up. Also if enemies are still scaling you would desperately need extra shield and health. Or maybe Valkyr is now the most durable Warframe in the game due to her high armor.

 

As for nerfing damage. It still wouldn't change a thing. Boltor Prime would still the best all around weapon in the game. There still wouldn't be any reasons to use the none damage mods for weapons because we would still need to buff the damage on the weapons to deal with scaling enemies.

 

 

 

It'd be nice if the Vitality, Redirection, power strength, power effeciency, etc mods all scaled with your frame (or weapon) level. This way we also don't have to waste the time dumping cores into vitality, redirection, and such. Once a frame reaches lv 30, these mods would then be at max.

 

Also, perhaps the ability tab could have sliders, where you could adjust how much power, range, duration, etc you want on your skills. This way people can accurately adjust their stats to their fitting. On each slider, mid point is the base stat. Dragging a slider more than halfway would force another slider to go down.

 

This would probably require a lot of work, but I think this would add a LOT more customization (and fun) to the game

The problem with this is if you remove all the main mods from your selection and add it into the Warframe we will only be able to pick from the Mods that don't change much at all.

 

Let me show you an ideal selection of mods if the ones you mentioned are removed.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=353155487

The rest of the mods would not be worth it. Due to the low amount of health you'd need any sort of defense against damage types. You might be able to switch out one of the elemental defense for something else if a faction doesn't use that element but that's about it. Also I'm just gonna assume Vigor is not gonna be part of the game as that'd be mandatory.

 

Not to mention with these sliders it would cause problems for some Warframes that rely on both Duration, power strength and range at once. Where as some only rely on two things and can ignore the other features.

For example, Saryn isn't so easy to mod with Corrupted Mods as she will get heavy side effects. Where as Excalibur only rely on Damage and Range.

 

Then you look at warframe and a single mod can boost the damage of your gun by over 200% and you can keep adding to that with mods that will give you orders of magnitude more total damage. It's just insane and means that enemy scaling has to accomidate for a absolutely massive gulf of player power. Everything from an unmodded Mk-1 weapon to a multi-forma prime weapon with max mods. The sheer numerical difference in stats is absolutely absurd. How do you balance things for that kind of range of power? 

 

The reason for this is to give players a reason to level up their stuff. I've played MMORPG where you only get a 1-5% damage boost on your skill per level. It is BORING, unrewarding and pointless. It got to the point where I didn't bother leveling them up. You've failed as a Game designer at that point when leveling things up because boring.

 

This is why Warframe gives you so much power. The reward of leveling something up with that much money and Fusion Cores is massive. It's fun too. It also gives the player the feeling that they are growing in strength too. We are after all playing Warframes with the power of an army. Why shouldn't we be powerful?

Why should we be weak as a twig?

 

 

 

So all in all, nerfing mods isn't the solution. Giving options on more mods to keep us alive is something DE could focus on.

Edited December 8, 2014 by LtZefar

[Playford]

I'm talking about a complete rebalance, reduce numbers that are too big, enlarge ones that are too small. If done properly, shield and health mods would be useful but not absolutley necessary, or could be used as a crutch for those less skilled. Some weapons should still be better than others, but the gap should be reduced to something reasonable. And yes, lowering damage numbers does not mean new options open up. Adding mods that have good and interesting effects make new options open up.

 

And we already have tons of mods that are not worth ranking up or even equipping (Warm Coat? Antitoxin? Insulation? Handspring? Provoked? Undying Will?) they already are a faliure from a game design perspective.

 

The point of all this is that we should remain powerful, but not by making numbers bigger (that should be a single component, not the only one), but by having more options.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Playford

[LtZefar]

Rather than nerfing everything else they should focus on improving the mods that are not worth using at the moment. Give them a secondary effect for example.

 

But nerfing everything else is just pointless.

[Playford]

After thinking about it, "nerf" may not be the best term to use, because it implies reduction in power, what I want is a reduction in numbers while the relative power levels remain similair(ish).

 

Let me put it this way: It takes a corrupted gunner of level [x] 5 seconds to kill an Excalibur that has max Vitality, Redirection and Vigor equipped (860/860), the game should be balanced so that same gunner of level [x] needs 5 seconds to kill Excalibur without those mods (300/300), but with them it takes 7 (lets assume after rebalance they give 470/470). At that point those mods give survivability, but not to the point they are irreplacable.

 

If you have better suggestions feel free to share them, but I feel that as long as some mods give too powerful bonuses they are discouraging people from exploring alternatives.