So Why Not Just Give Us Back The Slots You Took From Us?

[Cybercobra2]

So you mean equipping all four augment skills, one for each skill, like EVERYBODY else would do? That's not unique, that's just wanting to upgrade the skills, which this new system isn't about.

well they are planning for way more than just 4 augment mods per frame.

[Feyangol]

One augment-only slot would be cool - but we don't need more. Just to give us something unique to everyones playstyle and not to upgrade the whole frame. Warframe abilities are already strong enough, more than 1 augment would be too much :-) .

Edited December 14, 2014 by Feyangol

[Kruglov]

One augment-only slot would be cool - but we don't need more. Just to give us something unique to everyones playstyle and not to upgrade the whole frame. Warframe abilities are already strong enough, more than 1 augment would be too much :-) .

 

 

I kind of want to agree with this.

 

But at the same I also want to see warframes go FULL HAM with augments out the wazoo that make them all function entirely differently on all 4 abilities with all the mods we have. Mixing and matching with corrupt mods and prime mods and augments and all the other sillyness. I want to see the clusterfuck that will come. To view it with my own eyes.

[JakeRobber]

So you mean equipping all four augment skills, one for each skill, like EVERYBODY else would do? That's not unique, that's just wanting to upgrade the skills, which this new system isn't about.

 

Others are thinking about the future.  It just seems logical that each ability will have more than 1 augment.  When that time comes, we will have to make a choice.

 

 

 

One augment-only slot would be cool - but we don't need more. Just to give us something unique to everyones playstyle and not to upgrade the whole frame. Warframe abilities are already strong enough, more than 1 augment would be too much :-) .

 

Since most seem to think that augments are awful, more than 1 shouldn't hurt.

[Ronyn]

So you mean equipping all four augment skills, one for each skill, like EVERYBODY else would do? That's not unique, that's just wanting to upgrade the skills, which this new system isn't about.

That's a short sighted viewpoint. Warframe is a persistent game that DE will keep adding stuff to.

We have received two augments per frame in a matter of weeks. Do you think in the months and years ahead we will only have four augments per frame? Do you think that DE is going to stop giving syndicates stuff that will keep us grinding? 

Long term there will likely be multiple augment skills for each ability.

People will choose different augments and still be unique.

 

Ever played Diablo 3? the way that runes affect skills? So peoples builds are heavily varied?yeah....

long term we are looking at that kind of potential.

 

 

One augment-only slot would be cool - but we don't need more. Just to give us something unique to everyones playstyle and not to upgrade the whole frame. Warframe abilities are already strong enough, more than 1 augment would be too much :-) .

Let's be real here. Abilities range from too strong to too weak. Augments range from awesome to bandaid. So it's not really that simple.

And when you say "too much" that really depends on what we are fighting. The enemy difficulty has been moving around quite a bit lately.

When DE finalizes on balance four augments may very well be the right amount.

 

 

Others are thinking about the future.  It just seems logical that each ability will have more than 1 augment.  When that time comes, we will have to make a choice.

Exactly.

 

well they are planning for way more than just 4 augment mods per frame.

Exactly.

Edited December 14, 2014 by Ronyn

[ShardsSuperior]

I think a single Augment-only slot would be good. But, we should still be able to equip more augments into the actual frame spaces.

[quietcanary]

I say 2 augment slots. That way you can mix augments on seperate abilities that synergize well or you can stack 2 augments for the same ability and specialize.

[AlphaHorseman]

I would still stay stick with the one slot per ability. These aren't auras, to which affect the entire frame, but only focus on one power. As more augments are added in for one particular power, we could spec out our powers to our own feels, and as such make them more so specialized and unique. Limiting it to one or two augments per WarFrame would just have us specialize one or two powers, rather than the entire kit to our feels and wants.

[ThePredicament]

That's a short sighted viewpoint. Warframe is a persistent game that DE will keep adding stuff to.

We have received two augments per frame in a matter of weeks. Do you think in the months and years ahead we will only have four augments per frame? Do you think that DE is going to stop giving syndicates stuff that will keep us grinding? 

Long term there will likely be multiple augment skills for each ability.

People will choose different augments and still be unique.

 

Except it will most likely end up the same way most builds are now, which is cookie cutter min/max with slight variations. Even if there were four augment mods for each skill, you really think they will be "balanced" or even varied enough to not have one glaringly better choice?

 

Hell, look at pistol builds, there are 36 mods, ALL DIFFERENT from each other and how many practical builds are there? A few, using pretty much the same exact mods. Asking for four aug slots is going to be the same and it's not going to solve any problems that loadouts have now. Point is, there will always be an apex effect to these mods, having more than one slot is not giving out choices, it's giving us the allowance for powercreeping.

[Ronyn]

Except it will most likely end up the same way most builds are now, which is cookie cutter min/max with slight variations. Even if there were four augment mods for each skill, you really think they will be "balanced" or even varied enough to not have one glaringly better choice?

 

Hell, look at pistol builds, there are 36 mods, ALL DIFFERENT from each other and how many practical builds are there? A few, using pretty much the same exact mods. 

 

Point is, there will always be an apex effect to these mods, having more than one slot is not giving out choices, it's giving us the allowance for powercreeping.

By this line of thinking there is no point in offering players any options because balance issues will lead to cookie cutter builds. 

Granted, there will certainly be balance issues that have to be forever tuned as well as cookie cutter/flavor of the months builds in ANY system..

but that is just a given in a game of this type...it is not a reason to limit options in itself. That's an argument without use. 

 

Now your concern of "powercreep" is more reasonable. Sort of...

See the term powercreep is most accurately applied to-"when a new level of player power renders early content obsolete" 

The problem with suggesting that would happen in warframe is that there are several systems already in place that keeps early content relevant.

Specifically the steady flow of new gear that has to be leveled up to then going through it again once that gear has been forma'd.

Not to mention there are already tiers of gear to take into account, and there is already a heavy discrepancy between how long weapon damage stays viable compared to ability damage. But I don't want to digress....

 

More accurately what you are talking about is that a larger number of augments equipped at one time will raise the players power ceiling.

As a result the game would require a higher power ceiling of enemies and encounters to face off against. That is true.

However.... whether or not that is a good or bad thing is a matter of what DE wants the overall power ceiling to be.

And we have to factor that kind of thing in with DE's other goals like getting the players to continue to grind syndicates and whatever the "focus" system might end up being. Which, most likely, will raise the power ceiling in some way.

This is why some folks have suggested that the focus system somehow tie into unlocking additional augment slots.

It provides DE with something players would actually feel is worth grinding for.

 

Not be annoying here but lets be real...

do you really think a higher ceiling of power isn't coming eventually in one form or another? 

Edited December 15, 2014 by Ronyn

[AlphaHorseman]

Except it will most likely end up the same way most builds are now, which is cookie cutter min/max with slight variations. Even if there were four augment mods for each skill, you really think they will be "balanced" or even varied enough to not have one glaringly better choice?

 

Hell, look at pistol builds, there are 36 mods, ALL DIFFERENT from each other and how many practical builds are there? A few, using pretty much the same exact mods. Asking for four aug slots is going to be the same and it's not going to solve any problems that loadouts have now. Point is, there will always be an apex effect to these mods, having more than one slot is not giving out choices, it's giving us the allowance for powercreeping.

The point of the augments was to make them unique to each power. Having different affects per augments will help to diversify the builds, as each augment offers different benefits and detriments. Their unique attributes will make them appealing to different players and different play styles. I hardly see how the new Slash Dash augment will catch the eye of a player building for power strength and range specified for Radial Javelin/Blind, but an augment that would make slash dash a bit more aoe or wider range would tailor to this persons play style.

 

And, as stated above by Ronyn, there are those issues.

[ThePredicament]

By this line of thinking there is no point in offering players any options because balance issues will lead to cookie cutter builds. 

Granted, there will certainly be balance issues that have to be forever tuned as well as cookie cutter/flavor of the months builds in ANY system..

but that is just a given in a game of this type...it is not a reason to limit options in itself. That's an argument without use.

 

That's an absolutely cop out and fallacious response. Really? Having NO augment slots isn't limiting anyone to anything, it just means people need to take account what's more important in their builds, current mods or augments. For example, is an Intensify for Trinity worth more than an aug that might greatly benefit another skill more? It depends on the situation but mostly on the player.

 

The current system right now is much more "unique" towards the player because they don't just choose what upgrade they put on their frame, they actually have to choose WHAT to sacrifice to get that boost. One player could easily have the same augment mods as another player but the make up of the rest of the frame could easily be much more different. Slotting the same four augments, even just four augments, doesn't make the frames different they just have all their skills boosted. A player that got rid of a corrupted mod for an augment vs another that didn't and instead replaced a defense mod have the same skill boost but are completely "unique". Unlike, Min/Max builds this makes cookie cutter builds harder to make and even harder to justify.

 

Now your concern of "powercreep" is more reasonable. Sort of...

See the term powercreep is most accurately applied to-"when a new level of player power renders early content obsolete" 

The problem with suggesting that would happen in warframe is that there are several systems already in place that keeps early content relevant.

Specifically the steady flow of new gear that has to be leveled up to then going through it again once that gear has been forma'd.

Not to mention there are already tiers of gear to take into account, and there is already a heavy discrepancy between how long weapon damage stays viable compared to ability damage. But I don't want to digress....

 

You mean how having all skill augs actually make the original vanilla skills obsolete? That sounds like powercreep to me. There's a clear difference between customizing a Frame to specialize on a skill or two and customizing a Frame to fully upgrade every skill. Specialization, like in every other game, doesn't mean a complete upgrade, it's balancing the strengths and weaknesses. Adding four slots is definitely NOT specializing, especially since there are varying usefulness with the augments due to them having different utility.

 

More accurately what you are talking about is that a larger number of augments equipped at one time will raise the players power ceiling.

As a result the game would require a higher power ceiling of enemies and encounters to face off against. That is true.

However.... whether or not that is a good or bad thing is a matter of what DE wants the overall power ceiling to be.

And we have to factor that kind of thing in with DE's other goals like getting the players to continue to grind syndicates and whatever the "focus" system might end up being. Which, most likely, will raise the power ceiling in some way.

This is why some folks have suggested that the focus system somehow tie into unlocking additional augment slots.

It provides DE with something players would actually feel is worth grinding for.

And you think changing the gameplay mechanics to suit frames with augment mods is a good thing or should even be a thing? Glad you aren't in the dev team.

 

The point of the augments was to make them unique to each power. Having different affects per augments will help to diversify the builds, as each augment offers different benefits and detriments. Their unique attributes will make them appealing to different players and different play styles. I hardly see how the new Slash Dash augment will catch the eye of a player building for power strength and range specified for Radial Javelin/Blind, but an augment that would make slash dash a bit more aoe or wider range would tailor to this persons play style.

What you aren't seeing is that there are NO DETRIMENTS if there were augment slots. It's just PURE upgrades, that's not diversifying builds, that's just being power greedy. Having to replace a mod in current builds greatly diversifies builds more, moreso with more augments.

 

Overall though, I don't think I really need to argue about this. As much as even I want this, there will never be more than one slot, if any at all, so it doesn't matter.

[Ronyn]

That's an absolutely cop out and fallacious response. ....

 

No it's the unbiased reality of the situation.

Sure I'd prefer that DE goes with multiple augment slots but I'm not going to pretend it somehow solves those standard design problems.

On the other hand you're suggesting that a multi-augment slot system is to blame for things that are standard design problems.

---

In ANY system-

1: Whether the available options result in Cookie cutter builds verses real choice comes down to how viable the myriad of options are..

2: Trade offs exist when the player can only slot a limited number of the total options available. To have X requires leaving out Y=Trade off.

3: A games encounter system gets balanced and re-balanced to deal with new frames, frame reworks, new weapons, weapon reworks, new mission types, and any of the ways that players use things in ways developer don't predict. ..ect. trying to single out how augments would require a re-balance is...well....oh nevermind. 

 

Doesn't matter if there is four augment slots, one augment slot, or no augments slots the above three things are still applicable.

 

You mean how having all skill augs actually make the original vanilla skills obsolete?

No that's just called progression. Somethings being better than others is not powercreep.

For something to be obsolete it has to stop having a place where what it does is valuable.

Just....nevermind.

 

What you aren't seeing is that there are NO DETRIMENTS if there were augment slots. It's just PURE upgrades, 

Dude, the whole part where I talked about "raising of the power ceiling" acknowledged that 4 augments slots are a pure upgrade from no augments slots. The argument was never whether or not it was in fact increasing the power of the frames.

 

that's not diversifying builds, that's just being power greedy. Having to replace a mod in current builds greatly diversifies builds more, moreso with more augments.

Power greedy? One could call it that. Not diversifying builds? That's just false.

Mathematically speaking: Diversity is increased when the number of variables and by extension the possible resulting permutations increase.

So as long as an addition (in this case four augments lots) actually increases the number of variables it is in fact increases diversity.

Contingent on many of those new variables being viable options of course as always...like I mentioned earlier in this post. 

 

-Overall though, I don't think I really need to argue about this. 

On that we agree but for different reasons.

 

As much as even I want this, there will never be more than one slot, if any at all, so it doesn't matter.

Maybe, maybe not. maybe they will come up with something very different than any of this. We don't know either way. 

 

 

There's a clear difference between customizing a Frame to specialize on a skill or two and customizing a Frame to fully upgrade every skill. Specialization, like in every other game, doesn't mean a complete upgrade, it's balancing the strengths and weaknesses. 

 

Alright look. Specialization can and does exists in multiple ways. One way is by specking to have a certain ability be particularly good (lets just ignore that DE wants to get away from one trick pony builds) another way is by specking several abilities to work in specific ways. BOTH count as specialization. <-fact. (is my character in diablo 3 not specialized because I have a rune on each ability? of course he is.)

 

It's true that 4 augment slots is a direct upgrade to what we have in warframe right now, that does not mean that would not also hold a lot of specialization as well....because once there are multiple augment options for each ability it creates the diversity in builds. The inability to have it all at once would still exist.

BTW-the style of augments people choose could very well affect how they set up there regular frame slots as well.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Look this comes down to you not wanting the frames to get more powerful. That's one way to go and there is nothing wrong with that.

It has it's own advantages and disadvantages just like going some other way would. That's cool. It's not a bad choice or anything. 

But the rest of your argument is just fine sounding to those with similar preferences yet it is ultimately some inaccurate blame game rhetoric attached to a few facts used in sloppy context. 

Edited December 15, 2014 by Ronyn

[AlphaHorseman]

 

 

What you aren't seeing is that there are NO DETRIMENTS if there were augment slots. It's just PURE upgrades, that's not diversifying builds, that's just being power greedy. Having to replace a mod in current builds greatly diversifies builds more, moreso with more augments.

 

Overall though, I don't think I really need to argue about this. As much as even I want this, there will never be more than one slot, if any at all, so it doesn't matter.

What you aren't seeing is that the augments aren't supposed to be detrimental to a players powers. They're supposed to be ways to diversify the behaviors of powers, enhance them or change them. Diversity comes as there are more augments added for one ability, a player must choose between different augments that would fit their play styles best, as I've stated in the previous post. One augment gives them a new behavior, while another changes that singular power in a different way.

 

It matters because DE themselves are considering adding augment slots to WarFrames, as it's a point of contention and they're discussing it. I would hope that they see the opportunity of this to be a way for players to further diversify their playstyles through the augmentation of their powers. Continued additions to the augment system that help to foster diversified use of powers will be a great way for DE to continue to build on the potential of the augments.

[Ronyn]

What you aren't seeing is that the augments aren't supposed to be detrimental to a players powers. They're supposed to be ways to diversify the behaviors of powers, enhance them or change them. Diversity comes as there are more augments added for one ability, a player must choose between different augments that would fit their play styles best, as I've stated in the previous post. One augment gives them a new behavior, while another changes that singular power in a different way.

That's the point right there. Exactly.

 

 

It matters because DE themselves are considering adding augment slots to WarFrames, as it's a point of contention and they're discussing it. 

Yep. But for some reason there is a group of folks acting like DE said they were considering one slot specifically...

Yet DE never actually stated what they are considering in that regard. They were pretty evasive about it because they haven't decided yet.

All we know is that something about augment slot (s) is being seriously considered. That's all.

[AlphaHorseman]

That's the point right there. Exactly.

 

 

Yep. But for some reason there is a group of folks acting like DE said they were considering one slot specifically...

Yet DE never actually stated what they are considering in that regard. They were pretty evasive about it because they haven't decided yet.

All we know is that something about augment slot (s) is being seriously considered. That's all.

Exactly. I do hope they add 4 augment slots per frame, only applicable for 1 augment per power, and that these slots can only have ability augments added to them. Just one augment? For four powers? They are not auras, they solely affect the behavior of one power, not an entire squad or even enemy units.

[Ronyn]

 

-----

Let's try this another way.

Look at this http://us.battle.net/d3/en/class/barbarian/active/ and tell me how the way that runes upgrade the skills in all those different ways is somehow not adding diversity. Tell me how only being able to slot one rune per ability is somehow not making people choose. Tell me that peoples choice in how they use runes to modify their skills doesn't also affect how they gear themselves up.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Ronyn

[BoneBreakerx]

why even have agument mods? why not just upgrade your skills? why not just make a skill tree? why not let ppl have 100000000 mod slots?

 

its so you freaking have to sacrafice something to get something... jesus wtf is wrong with ppl...

[EetNotErn]

why even have agument mods? why not just upgrade your skills? why not just make a skill tree? why not let ppl have 100000000 mod slots?

 

its so you freaking have to sacrafice something to get something... jesus wtf is wrong with ppl...

 

 

I completely agree. People keep asking for more and more and there's no reason for this power creep. The augments are AWESOME and are totally worth a slot. We don't need an augment slot. I had NO problem making my builds with augments. 

 

People need to learn how to make builds instead of asking for a crutch in the form of an augment slot. I've made my argument against this idea over and over again and I'm hoping the devs have seen my points.

 

Giving us more slots does NOT promote diversity. Making the mods comparable to each other is the REAL solution. Slapping on more slots just means we all have pretty much the same builds except with extras. Instead of a build with 8 mods that everyone has, adding more slots just means that we have builds with 10 mods that everyone has. Or 12 mods. Improve the mods that no one uses instead so people have more realistic options.

Edited December 15, 2014 by EetNotErn

[AlphaHorseman]

These augment slots allow for diversity because they allow players to choose how they want to spec their powers, the behaviors they want their powers to have, and thus further tailor a players powers to however their play style is. Having 1 augment slot for four powers doesn't make sense. Having 1 augment slot per power allows for a player to alter their frames main uniqueness, their powers, allows the player to further personalize their frame to them.

 

The point of the augments is to change the behaviors of powers to be able to be malleable to different builds. As more augments roll out, this change to 4 dedicated augment slots, 1 per ability, allows players to alter their powers to new heights, helping all of us diversify our powers. As more augments are rolled out for the same power, we have to come to the hard decision of deciding which augments best fit the builds we like, THATS where the detriment comes in. The system is new, it isn't fleshed out, they've given us the bones, now we can build from it.

 

This does not hurt diversity of builds in any sense, it expands it immensely.

Edited December 15, 2014 by AlphaHorseman

[OverlordMcGeek]

why even have agument mods? why not just upgrade your skills? why not just make a skill tree? why not let ppl have 100000000 mod slots?

 

its so you freaking have to sacrafice something to get something... jesus wtf is wrong with ppl...

That is the same argument that we all have been doing to DE. Especially when it came around to the augment to slash dash and Mag's crush. There has been a plethora of requests on how to make the ability itself "basic" even before augment mods came about around the forums, and now all of a sudden they wanted us to come up with something exclusively by the Design Council! This infuriated some of us and what we resorted to was either quoting old posts about the ability changes from other users into the augment threads to force them to see them again even if they didn't want to admit that this process was stupid, to simply re-describing ideas that have already been given to DE on the threads discussing each separate ability.

 

Btw what's the correct way of writing eighter?

Edited December 15, 2014 by OverlordMcGeek

[AM-Bunny]

That is the same argument that we all have been doing to DE. Especially when it came around to the augment to slash dash and Mag's crush. There has been a plethora of requests on how to make the ability itself "basic" even before augment mods came about around the forums, and now all of a sudden they wanted us to come up with something exclusively by the Design Council! This infuriated some of us and what we resorted to was eighter quoting old posts about the ability changes from other users into the augment threads to force them to see them again even if they didn't want to admit that this process was stupid, to simply re-describing ideas that have already been given to DE on the threads discussing each separate ability.

 

Btw what's the correct way of writing eighter?

I'll agree with you that some mods, such as slash dash augment, should've been straight upgrades. Some, like both of Nekros' augment mods are great designs and work quite well as augment mods I think. Overall, the quality of the second batch of augment mods was much higher than the first, so perhaps this will just take some refining.

Btw it's "either"~

[OverlordMcGeek]

I'll agree with you that some mods, such as slash dash augment, should've been straight upgrades. Some, like both of Nekros' augment mods are great designs and work quite well as augment mods I think. Overall, the quality of the second batch of augment mods was much higher than the first, so perhaps this will just take some refining.

Btw it's "either"~

Thank you.

 

Either 

Yep no red squiggly lines below it, yay!

Edited December 15, 2014 by OverlordMcGeek

[Edgarhighman]

THEY should return 2 mod slots (for frame) and add 1-2 augment slots. Because. WARFRAMES. are meant to be buff not nerf.

[AlphaHorseman]

THEY should return 2 mod slots (for frame) and add 1-2 augment slots. Because. WARFRAMES. are meant to be buff not nerf.

1-2 augment slots when we have 4 powers seems pretty limiting to a new system that could potentially diversify all powers. 4 feels good because each power would get their own slot to augment, and thus have the potential of every new squad you join have such diverse play styles.