Twin Queens? This Is It. Our Chance For Endgame. [Raid Discussion]

[Johny5X]

I also believe that by completing this there's got to be a super ultra reward for the player

Edited December 13, 2014 by Johny5X

[HolidayPi3]

I'm all for fights with actual difficult and interesting mechanics / positioning requirements.

That being said, I don't think people are going to be very willing to support this because of the idea of 'raid gear' replacing their gear. Up to this point, Warframe has been a total cakewalk in almost every regard. People may not want to admit it because it's an e-peen destroyer, but a lot of people don't want this to change because they like being the demi-gods we're advertised as being. They don't like the idea of having something out of their reach because they weren't good enough... or didn't have time. Falling behind because of a skill or time deficiency is really frustrating to most people, whether they're willing to admit it or not.

 

So while I agree with your idea to put something much more structured to separate the good from the great, I'd rather the rewards be kept cosmetic with unique armor pieces / syandanas / warframe skins / weapon skins. This way people don't feel pressured to have to raid to "keep up" with the player base.

Personally, I love the idea of having raids where we could flaunt our mastery over the movement system / aiming. But locking better gear through a skill wall is probably something DE won't do.

 

Once the 'top players' have gotten gear that's superior to most of the WF population, what will they do with it? They've already proven themselves to be the cream of the crop, now they have gear that makes the rest of the game easier for them (weren't they looking for a challenge to begin with?). This would open the door for more raids... and a gear treadmill. I'd rather not get into that aspect.

Edited December 13, 2014 by HolidayPi3

[(PSN)SofeSNBR]

You know saddest thing is in these type posts? Seeing someone putting time and effort making these, creating wall of texts in great detail and they on end up being waste of time. I very highly doubt that DE uses anything from this when they design twin queens.

Wich brings us to another depressing thing, this twin queens boss fight, Leaders of major faction in warframe, ends up being just another meh boss fight, probably wont even have cutscene.... only thing what you get is that little screen of them saying "Tenno scum" Also real kicker will be that you need farm some key parts from sedna or some other grineer liset yo get there next few months when twin queens are implemented.

 

As for idea itself.... i have mixed feelings about it, i like the idea make this boss fight huge as they are not just random person like every other boss in this game, but i dont like idea having 10 players in same mission. It would end up terribly unbalanced and mostly would cause a lot crashes, cuz everyone would be spamming lot flashy abilities. Also raid gear and legendary gear... these would create just another power creep weaponry. I would say stick to the cosmetics or make twin queens drop some epic warframe parts, not OP frame, just epic frame(stalker frame?)

[MissFairy]

Fantastic idea I really want a raid ;)

[D0ubleFE]

I agree on more challlenge... almost unnatainable challenge... but it would have to be something REALLY different... more than just 100 lvl something.. experienced tenno would figure it out... something so hard that players would have to lose very often...

[Ishki88]

Why do people want in-game when our middle-game is still incomplete....

[Chaosdreamer]

You know , I like your idea , but you need a way to keep the Queen alive else it's mean you have beat the games

[Chaosdreamer]

Why do people want in-game when our middle-game is still incomplete....

 

Because We already done , over done our current content , everything release get done in few hour/day maybe that why

[(PSN)ELIT3_EXP3RT-01]

Upvoted:

Very well explained to keep Warframe fresh and honestly an insight to what an endgame for Warframe should be.

After Warframe is out of Beta (early 2016) this would be a great addition to officially celebrate its full game release.

[(PSN)SofeSNBR]

Upvoted:

Very well explained to keep Warframe fresh and honestly an insight to what an endgame for Warframe should be.

After Warframe is out of Beta (early 2016) this would be a great addition to officially celebrate its full game release.

If this game lives that long.... not looking good on ps4 side.

[(PSN)ELIT3_EXP3RT-01]

If this game lives that long.... not looking good on ps4 side.

It took years before COD, WoW, LoLs and Minecraft became popular so I guess time will tell. I mean most console games have been disappointing so far this gen.

Destiny having the largest fanbase yet has the least amount of content and features than the above, dosent mean it will last forever. Hype only goes so far.

I lol, just checked friends list:

197/284 Playing Destiny

[grimoireofalice]

What is it with people obsessively trying to push raiding into every genre of games these days? As if raiding is the only long term content possible. Or that WoW was ever all that successful with it in the first place. It was widely noted by the WoW devs that for the majority of WoW's life, raiding was only for the elite top percent of players and they constantly tried to find ways to get more of the player base into raiding. Until eventually they utterly changed the concept so that the difficulty was mostly optional and pugging was the norm. Only then did raiding ever see the kind of acceptable figures they expected for them to focus the majority of their content on. If you want skillful bosses, raiding is never going to be the way to go about it at all.

 

I fail to see why it couldn't simply be a very good well designed four man boss. Why you aren't advocating for full squad bosses to be better designed instead is a little beyond me.

[Judge_Hellboy]

It'll just turn into stalker battle in who can one shot who first.

[Tyreuzs]

-Raid Gear: Each difficulty grants a certain level of gear. Higher difficulties give better gear. Pretty simple one. Only obtainable from raids. You can only obtain drops once a week.

 

-(Optional) Legendary Item: Rare drop. Something with an extremely low chance to drop (5%). Only dropped from Twin Queens at the highest difficulty.

OR

Legendary questline (recommended). Obtain items from all raid bosses on highest difficulty at semi low drop rates (20%). Items are used in a long quest deeply involving lore. Will take several months to obtain all in total. Extremely satisfying to complete.

Very few people will obtain a legendary item. It will have stronger stats than top raid gear and/or a unique game changing effect. A showing of not only power, but determination (or luck).

seriously x.x? a suggestion for even more grinding and sacrifices to RNGesus?

[Cpt_Atroxium]

A raid in warframe would be cool. 

 

But as of some aspects, there are limitations to if they would be implemented or not. The thing is, this does sound epic, and it does sound endgame worthy. 

 

There are some good ideas here, as of the raid. There are some ideas that dont really fit the players of warframe. It might please the few, but not all. 

It's a work that could be balanced, and in the end. Something immersive and pretty darn EPIC.

 

Im gonna give you a upvote, as I've wanted a simulair structured idea I had in my mind when chilling in the relay HUB's. 

[SilentMobius]

More people is a solution looking for a problem. I am so sick of games assuming that more players makes an encounter somehow more "epic" All it does is devalue the individual player.

I rather not turn warframe into yet another herding cats simulator.

So just no to this whole idea

[Toppien]

why they still calling this endgame? you people want to "end" the game so you can move on? be the king of the hill or what? im ok with the idea of this post, but that term keeps bugging me, i mean, they have to necessarily call it endgame?

Edited December 14, 2014 by Toppien

[Morec0]

why they still calling this endgame? you people want to "end" the game so you can move on? be the king of the hill or what? im ok with the idea of this post, but that term keeps bugging me, i mean, they have to necessarily call it endgame?

 

They call it endgame because things of WoW popularized the idea of having this final, massive thing you could reach that shows you are the best of the best. The issue with that, though, is that once you do get there, once you do beat the endgame, then that's it. What is there to come back to after that? Once the game has ended for you, why keep playing?

 

The problem with the idea of an "endgame" is that it means more must be added later on after that to ensure the players keep coming back and the company producing the game gets more money - because it's ALWAYS about the money. But once you do that, uh-oh, NOW the community wants NEW End Game.

 

We've seen it before already: Orokin Void. I'd say that's the endgame. Those towers and the various tiers, especially Tier 4, have been our endgame for some time now. But, as you have likely experienced, we've already mastered it, we've already beaten and dominated everything about that we possibly can, so DE has a choice:

 

Either continue to move forward and leave all the earliest parts of the game, the bosses, the other planets, behind in their quest for massive endgame content.

 

OR

 

Leave the Void and endgame as it is, progress forward with updating the older content and making it something for all players to enjoy, and keep the game going so they can keep making money and stay in business from it.

 

You can likely deduce which of these two options I prefer.

[CY13ERPUNK]

plz god no

 

sry OP

 

-9999

 

Warframe does not need to be turned into WoW

 

i really wish these kind of players would stop trying to transform every game they play into another generic MMORPG =[

[Omnimorph]

It's funny though, little bit of history re. "raids" - they started in EQ.  The world had specific mega-bosses just hanging out, meant to be unkillable world furniture.  People used to self-organize into huge groups to take them down.  This was kind of emergent gameplay (it wasn't something necessarily anticipated by EQ's designers). WoW turned that kind of mega-group gameplay into a designed thing of its own, vastly extending the sophistication of that type of content (notoriously, most of WoW's content, by sheer volume, is endgame content - i.e. most of the work and effort of the devs, went into the endgame, not the levelling part of the game, which is mind-blowing, considering how big and detailed the levelling part of the game is!).

 

The curious thing is, even though only a tiny percentage of players ever participate in raids (the majority of WoW players never participated in one, which was a source of chagrin to Blizzard, and the reason they invented automated group finders), their presence or absence seems to make or break any multiplayer game with MMO ambitions.  Probably because it's satisfactory content for the few that play it, and there's a trickle-down effect of some kind in terms of loyalty from having them. At any rate, all the proposed "WoW-killers" have notably lacked either sufficient quantity or quality of endgame content of this type. 

 

The only serious alternative to raids for the longevity of a multiplayer game is the sandbox model, like EVE Online, where players create their own content among themselves with tools given by the developers.  But Waframe has nothing like that, so it's going to have to have some kind of advanced large-group content for the endgame if it wants to survive.

 

I should imagine that probably most of DE's efforts from now on are going to be oriented around getting endgame content built and ready for the official launch of the game; and if they want the game to be a success they're going to have to keep on pumping it out too (Blizzard didn't have much endgame at launch, but they managed to keep ahead of the curve of players reaching cap, to eventually produce a truly humungous amount of it).

[-..-]

It's funny though, little bit of history re. "raids" - they started in EQ.  The world had specific mega-bosses just hanging out, meant to be unkillable world furniture.  People used to self-organize into huge groups to take them down.  This was kind of emergent gameplay (it wasn't something necessarily anticipated by EQ's designers). WoW turned that kind of mega-group gameplay into a designed thing of its own, vastly extending the sophistication of that type of content (notoriously, most of WoW's content, by sheer volume, is endgame content - i.e. most of the work and effort of the devs, went into the endgame, not the levelling part of the game, which is mind-blowing, considering how big and detailed the levelling part of the game is!).

 

The curious thing is, even though only a tiny percentage of players ever participate in raids (the majority of WoW players never participated in one, which was a source of chagrin to Blizzard, and the reason they invented automated group finders), their presence or absence seems to make or break any multiplayer game with MMO ambitions.  Probably because it's satisfactory content for the few that play it, and there's a trickle-down effect of some kind in terms of loyalty from having them. At any rate, all the proposed "WoW-killers" have notably lacked either sufficient quantity or quality of endgame content of this type. 

 

The only serious alternative to raids for the longevity of a multiplayer game is the sandbox model, like EVE Online, where players create their own content among themselves with tools given by the developers.  But Waframe has nothing like that, so it's going to have to have some kind of advanced large-group content for the endgame if it wants to survive.

 

I should imagine that probably most of DE's efforts from now on are going to be oriented around getting endgame content built and ready for the official launch of the game; and if they want the game to be a success they're going to have to keep on pumping it out too (Blizzard didn't have much endgame at launch, but they managed to keep ahead of the curve of players reaching cap, to eventually produce a truly humungous amount of it).

 

Agreed entirely. A good endgame ties everything together in tidy package. It gives players something to strive for even if they don't end up reaching it. The two games that have held my attention that longest are WoW and MOBAs (LoL/DotA). Both endgame raids and PvP extend a game's lifespan by so much. I'm happy that Warframe has survived this long and is even growing, but if they want to keep this growth they're going to have to expand into additional fields that satisfy a wider range of consumers. "Grind more to grind more" will only keep a majority of the audience's attention for so long.

[Jeetza]

This is a great idea and really is one THE BEST ways to add endgame. I would love this instead of something silly like "You want endgame? Have a T5 void, if you want anything harder we'll add a T6 void later then"

[Separius]

This. So much this.

[Judgebanks]

It's funny though, little bit of history re. "raids" - they started in EQ.  The world had specific mega-bosses just hanging out, meant to be unkillable world furniture.  People used to self-organize into huge groups to take them down.  This was kind of emergent gameplay (it wasn't something necessarily anticipated by EQ's designers). WoW turned that kind of mega-group gameplay into a designed thing of its own, vastly extending the sophistication of that type of content (notoriously, most of WoW's content, by sheer volume, is endgame content - i.e. most of the work and effort of the devs, went into the endgame, not the levelling part of the game, which is mind-blowing, considering how big and detailed the levelling part of the game is!).

 

The curious thing is, even though only a tiny percentage of players ever participate in raids (the majority of WoW players never participated in one, which was a source of chagrin to Blizzard, and the reason they invented automated group finders), their presence or absence seems to make or break any multiplayer game with MMO ambitions.  Probably because it's satisfactory content for the few that play it, and there's a trickle-down effect of some kind in terms of loyalty from having them. At any rate, all the proposed "WoW-killers" have notably lacked either sufficient quantity or quality of endgame content of this type. 

 

The only serious alternative to raids for the longevity of a multiplayer game is the sandbox model, like EVE Online, where players create their own content among themselves with tools given by the developers.  But Waframe has nothing like that, so it's going to have to have some kind of advanced large-group content for the endgame if it wants to survive.

 

I should imagine that probably most of DE's efforts from now on are going to be oriented around getting endgame content built and ready for the official launch of the game; and if they want the game to be a success they're going to have to keep on pumping it out too (Blizzard didn't have much endgame at launch, but they managed to keep ahead of the curve of players reaching cap, to eventually produce a truly humungous amount of it).

 

Actually only a tiny percent cleared all the content, almost everyone including PvP players(China's "The Seven" during BC being the most notable example) entered a raid. It was somewhere around 0.5% of the total player base actually killed KT, which is around 20000 players.

 

Something to note, is that for its time, WoW had excellent boss mechanics. Reusing mechanics from 2005 in a game that will likely still be in beta in 2015. . . well that's just lazy.

[Blakrana]

I admit, I have never understood the point of Raids or World Bosses. Guild Wars 2, which is fun enough on your own or with friends, just becomes such a tedious 'repeat same ability' affair for the 'challenging' world bosses. Just copy the guy next to you and you're done. Woo. So epic my frame rate forgets I'm off cool down.

 

Sure. There are people who like this sort of thing. That's perfectly fine. But I honestly have to ask why people want a more WoW 'Take all the people!' approach to an enemy, when an individual Tenno is literally an army killer. Ergo, why not go more for boss fights designed around giving a team of 4 a good challenge? It'd certainly help considering the Peer to Peer system and the limitations there of.

 

Have any of you played Monster Hunter? God Eater? Ninja Gaiden? Phantasy Star Portable 2? Those are the sort of game bosses we should be asking for. Lephantis is...arguably a start, an attempt. It's a ways to go before it's on par with White Fatalis, Corrosive Hannibal, Genshin or Orga Anastasis at level 200/Shizuru in Gemaga, respectively, but it's a start. Not only are the bosses in Monster Hunter and God Eater possible to solo but they're darned fun to fight with other people, so I've heard; Solo Gunlancer here for the better side of my entire MH experience, so I can't comment how things change with a team. So far, it is possible to solo every boss in Warfame. Harder, but nonetheless doable. Why does making something completely antithetical to that seem necessary?

 

A well made boss suited to give 4 people a challenge is significantly more achievable with the mechanical systems in place, than trying to make a 'challenging' boss designed with more than 4 people involved, especially in this context. Especially when the challenge boils down to arbitrarily large numbers. 1000 and 100 are basically the same if the target dies from both values, after all.

 

My experiences differ greatly from other people, not going to deny that. I've spent most of my gaming life with only myself to play a game with, so I just play till I win. The first time I beat Ninja Gaiden on Xbox original felt utterly amazing. I used to think my 'limit' was trying to beat Shen Gaoren on MHFU. I then went on to slay Lao Shan Lung. Black Fatalis with a Gunlance and no damage taken. It. was. EPIC.

 

That's just me. On my own, against the most badass critters I know, and only myself to rely on. The close-knit teamwork that I've experienced with my friends in Warframe and Guild Wars 2 has been almost revolutionary for me; alone, I'm limited by my mistakes. With my friends, I'm limited only by how poorly we overestimate our chances. We're doing whatever we feel best at and applying that to the enemies in front of us. It's fun.

 

Until we end up requiring more people than just us in Guild Wars 2. Then it's a case of 'oh, not enough people have turned up, this is going to fail'. There's no possible question about it so you might as well start legging it before you get creamed by the in effect un-killable boss. So fun. Really. I like not having any autonomy, it's so engaging.

 

Once you bring arbitrary numbers into it, with strict timers, objectives and equipment requirements, it stops being a game, but an exercise in pure mathematics which, if you haven't got numbers crunched to the exacting standards demanded, there's literally nothing you can do or participate in.

 

That's not playing a game, that's work.

 

Games should be fun. Bosses should be challenges that have attack patterns that force you to react, rather than arbitrary 'OHKO' powers or reams and reams of CC that only a very particular thing protects you from. A good boss gives you multiple means to fight it, not a 1 True Counter and no variation from that counter. Something being a GM really helps you learn.

 

Take Monster Hunter. Sure, you can do everything using a Long Sword...but you can also do everything with a Gunlance. Dual Blades. Hammers. Bowguns, Bows...take your freaking pick, it's your call. If you are good with your gear, good with your positioning, there is nothing Monster Hunter asks of you than make sure you at least have enough Sharpness to pierce your prey's hide; White is typically the most you'll ever need at that. Purple's just for a select few monsters, Black Gravios to name one. And even then, there's Skills and Items to circumvent a lack of sufficient sharpness.

 

Games ought to enable players to engage in situations as they feel best. Not forcing them into only 'one possible way' to play the game after a point. If that happens, it should only be the players doing it to themselves, making them think there's 'only one right way'. Build for fun and engagement first, and the numbers should follow afterwards.

 

And, I'd like to close on one final point; not every character in a game exists as a Mechanics Villain, something you can fight in battle. Some exist purely as Narrative Villains, opponents you don't so much as fight but realise that their actions and existence impacts everything you do. Some Narrative Villains are just so brilliantly done that no fight against them could ever, in any stretch of the imagination, live up to it.

 

The most triumphant example I know of for such a Narrative Villain comes from Golden Sun:

Alex

 

How's that relate to this? The Twin Queens may be a Narrative Villain. We've fought Hek, Ruk, Alad V, Kela, Tyl Regor, Lephantis, Phorid, Stalker and a bunch of proxies. It may be high time for Warframe to have figures that you can't fight, but they impact everything and all you can do is run interference. Arguably we already see this with the Neural Sentry; a force that's just 'there' in the Void, but we can't strike at it/them directly.The moment you make the Twin Queens killable, well...That's it. Job done. Go play something else, you've ended the blight on the Origin System. Time for Cryosleep till the next great threat to Balance arises.

 

Which just sounds dull. Especially if that fight is repeatable at all. A true End Game end boss cannot be fought again as the credits start and that's it. The story's over and now you've got the ever painful question of 'what now?'.

 

But, hey, what do I know? I'm just a predominately solo player for the majority of my life and a 'filthy casual' out for fun, not trying to part of some arbitrary 'elite'.

 

End of the day, null sheen.