Twin Queens? This Is It. Our Chance For Endgame. [Raid Discussion]

[sp33chle55]

No, dont go above a player count of four. Make it a long mission with some pre bosses guarding the queens. Make the fights tough and i mean very tough. The rewards should be worth the fight.

But dear lord, please dont go above 4 players.

[MrEpical]

No, dont go above a player count of four. Make it a long mission with some pre bosses guarding the queens. Make the fights tough and i mean very tough. The rewards should be worth the fight.

But dear lord, please dont go above 4 players.

Do you know what a raid is?

 

[sp33chle55]

Yeah, i know what a raid is. Thats why im telling you my opinion about it, duh.

Reading AND comprehending.

Edited December 14, 2014 by sp33chle55

[MrEpical]

Yeah, i know what a raid is. Thats why im telling you my opinion about it, duh.

Reading AND comprehending.

IF you KNEW what A RAID is Then you would know that the reason it requires 8 players and not 4 is because of its impossible difficulty w/o 8 players.

[sp33chle55]

Where is the source of that?

A definition?

As far as i know a raid can go up to 40 players and even beyond. Usually its called a raid around a player count of 10.

Its just a massive player count going to raid a boss. So actually you are quite wrong.

And im still just telling you my opinion about a bigger player count in warframe doing a mission.

So either go argue about it or keep quiet.

Edited December 14, 2014 by sp33chle55

[MrEpical]

Where is the source of that?

A definition?

As far as i know a raid can go up to 40 players and even beyond. Usually its called a raid around a player count of 10.

Its just a massive player count going to raid a boss. So actually you are quite wrong.

Then if what you are saying is true Why are you saying it should be only 4 players -.- see you are already contradicting yourself.

[sp33chle55]

You just cant comprehend texts? Huh?

It is my opinion about this topic.

What is wrong with you?

I dont think missions should be made for player counts above 4. Period.

This is a discussion about making raids available. My opinion is its not going to be very practical or good for warframe.

Edited December 14, 2014 by sp33chle55

[Duch99pl]

You know , I like your idea , but you need a way to keep the Queen alive else it's mean you have beat the games

 

Clones ?

[RossRam]

I don't think we should ever battle Twin Queens. First, we are fighting for balance, not for peace. We do not want to cripple Grineer Empire, no matter how much do you want this. And last, I think Warframe, just as Warhammer, is a universe with an endless war. Best we can hope for is to see Queens in some kind of Grineer propaganda movie. But we should not even be able to get somehow close to them. They should probably have a legion of Terra Frame soldiers as their guard.

 

Besides, I'm a solo player, just sayin'.

Edited December 14, 2014 by RossRam

[Fari]

It'd be nice to have a challenge, at least.

[CY13ERPUNK]

I admit, I have never understood the point of Raids or World Bosses. Guild Wars 2, which is fun enough on your own or with friends, just becomes such a tedious 'repeat same ability' affair for the 'challenging' world bosses. Just copy the guy next to you and you're done. Woo. So epic my frame rate forgets I'm off cool down.

 

Sure. There are people who like this sort of thing. That's perfectly fine. But I honestly have to ask why people want a more WoW 'Take all the people!' approach to an enemy, when an individual Tenno is literally an army killer. Ergo, why not go more for boss fights designed around giving a team of 4 a good challenge? It'd certainly help considering the Peer to Peer system and the limitations there of.

 

Have any of you played Monster Hunter? God Eater? Ninja Gaiden? Phantasy Star Portable 2? Those are the sort of game bosses we should be asking for. Lephantis is...arguably a start, an attempt. It's a ways to go before it's on par with White Fatalis, Corrosive Hannibal, Genshin or Orga Anastasis at level 200/Shizuru in Gemaga, respectively, but it's a start. Not only are the bosses in Monster Hunter and God Eater possible to solo but they're darned fun to fight with other people, so I've heard; Solo Gunlancer here for the better side of my entire MH experience, so I can't comment how things change with a team. So far, it is possible to solo every boss in Warfame. Harder, but nonetheless doable. Why does making something completely antithetical to that seem necessary?

 

A well made boss suited to give 4 people a challenge is significantly more achievable with the mechanical systems in place, than trying to make a 'challenging' boss designed with more than 4 people involved, especially in this context. Especially when the challenge boils down to arbitrarily large numbers. 1000 and 100 are basically the same if the target dies from both values, after all.

 

My experiences differ greatly from other people, not going to deny that. I've spent most of my gaming life with only myself to play a game with, so I just play till I win. The first time I beat Ninja Gaiden on Xbox original felt utterly amazing. I used to think my 'limit' was trying to beat Shen Gaoren on MHFU. I then went on to slay Lao Shan Lung. Black Fatalis with a Gunlance and no damage taken. It. was. EPIC.

 

That's just me. On my own, against the most badass critters I know, and only myself to rely on. The close-knit teamwork that I've experienced with my friends in Warframe and Guild Wars 2 has been almost revolutionary for me; alone, I'm limited by my mistakes. With my friends, I'm limited only by how poorly we overestimate our chances. We're doing whatever we feel best at and applying that to the enemies in front of us. It's fun.

 

Until we end up requiring more people than just us in Guild Wars 2. Then it's a case of 'oh, not enough people have turned up, this is going to fail'. There's no possible question about it so you might as well start legging it before you get creamed by the in effect un-killable boss. So fun. Really. I like not having any autonomy, it's so engaging.

 

Once you bring arbitrary numbers into it, with strict timers, objectives and equipment requirements, it stops being a game, but an exercise in pure mathematics which, if you haven't got numbers crunched to the exacting standards demanded, there's literally nothing you can do or participate in.

 

That's not playing a game, that's work.

 

Games should be fun. Bosses should be challenges that have attack patterns that force you to react, rather than arbitrary 'OHKO' powers or reams and reams of CC that only a very particular thing protects you from. A good boss gives you multiple means to fight it, not a 1 True Counter and no variation from that counter. Something being a GM really helps you learn.

 

Take Monster Hunter. Sure, you can do everything using a Long Sword...but you can also do everything with a Gunlance. Dual Blades. Hammers. Bowguns, Bows...take your freaking pick, it's your call. If you are good with your gear, good with your positioning, there is nothing Monster Hunter asks of you than make sure you at least have enough Sharpness to pierce your prey's hide; White is typically the most you'll ever need at that. Purple's just for a select few monsters, Black Gravios to name one. And even then, there's Skills and Items to circumvent a lack of sufficient sharpness.

 

Games ought to enable players to engage in situations as they feel best. Not forcing them into only 'one possible way' to play the game after a point. If that happens, it should only be the players doing it to themselves, making them think there's 'only one right way'. Build for fun and engagement first, and the numbers should follow afterwards.

 

And, I'd like to close on one final point; not every character in a game exists as a Mechanics Villain, something you can fight in battle. Some exist purely as Narrative Villains, opponents you don't so much as fight but realise that their actions and existence impacts everything you do. Some Narrative Villains are just so brilliantly done that no fight against them could ever, in any stretch of the imagination, live up to it.

 

The most triumphant example I know of for such a Narrative Villain comes from Golden Sun:

Alex

 

How's that relate to this? The Twin Queens may be a Narrative Villain. We've fought Hek, Ruk, Alad V, Kela, Tyl Regor, Lephantis, Phorid, Stalker and a bunch of proxies. It may be high time for Warframe to have figures that you can't fight, but they impact everything and all you can do is run interference. Arguably we already see this with the Neural Sentry; a force that's just 'there' in the Void, but we can't strike at it/them directly.The moment you make the Twin Queens killable, well...That's it. Job done. Go play something else, you've ended the blight on the Origin System. Time for Cryosleep till the next great threat to Balance arises.

 

Which just sounds dull. Especially if that fight is repeatable at all. A true End Game end boss cannot be fought again as the credits start and that's it. The story's over and now you've got the ever painful question of 'what now?'.

 

But, hey, what do I know? I'm just a predominately solo player for the majority of my life and a 'filthy casual' out for fun, not trying to part of some arbitrary 'elite'.

 

End of the day, null sheen.

 

+9999999999

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ this so much

 

dude, you need to make this your own thread, srsly, kudos

[Omnimorph]

 

My experiences differ greatly from other people, not going to deny that. I've spent most of my gaming life with only myself to play a game with

 

In that case, I'm not sure why you think your opinion is relevant in this thread.

[Tigersight]

In that case, I'm not sure why you think your opinion is relevant in this thread.

Pretty sure because it's an opinion on endgame raids. >_>

 

Would like to see more crazy bossfights myself, but agree that setting arbitrary mathmatical limits on stuff like necessary dps and such would be going to far. More Unique mechanics would be more fitting for Warframe.

 

For instance, I remember fighting some boss in a regular 4-man raid in Rift at one point that had this lock on instakill attack that it could use on your back line. To avoid it, you have to move behind a wall before it fired. Pretty simple.

 

But if you port that same idea to Warframe, it would be much more interesting because we have parkour. Lock on instakill (without letting you go down) when the boss chamber is a series of platforms with no cover, requiring you to parkour to some elevated area to break line of sight, would be an interesting ability that would require players to react.

 

It's stuff like that, unique moves that require some reaction other than Iron Skin facetanking that Warframe should work into bosses- raid bosses or not- to make them much more interesting and fun.

[SilentMobius]

There is pretty much nothing in WoW-style raids that I want in warframe.

 

"Raids" boil down to one simple thing:

 

Can you herd enough players into doing what you tell them.

 

It stops being about the game and become about whether everyone is performing their "assigned task". This turns the entire game into simply waving your e-peen.

 

So to be clear:

 

More players in a single event: No I don't want that, it devalues the role of each player.

Bosses that dwarf the power of a single Tenno: No I don't want that, story-wise a Tenno should be capable of taking on and possibly winning against any story antagonist.

Loot Check: No I don't want that, More e-peen

 

There is a reason I'm here playing this game and not WoW, Anarchy-Online, etc.

 

All I want is more dialogue, more story and more of the same action just refined.

Edited December 15, 2014 by SilentMobius

[Otaiken]

There are many people that lag when hosting 4 players.

 

How exactly would 10 or more players be handled by the game OP? Dedicated servers? 

 

This game is casual 4 player PvE lobby shooter atm. Do try to work from there will ya. If DE can't provide reasonable "challenge" (this word is so abused on these forums, it should call some kind of @(*()$ helpline) for 4 players how the hell are they gonna design decent 10 player content?

 

Having more than 1 player trivializes 90% of the game.

 

Having those players equip the cookie cutter gear and frames trivializes the remaining 10%.

 

Lag makes clients immortal regardless of level. This game is very often laggy.

 

Throwing more players and higher enemy levels on the problem isn't exactly gonna make it go away. Your endgame is a pipe-dream. No one even bloody knows what endgame means exactly! Also, what comes after the endgame, endgame+ ? Maybe... just maybe after 2000 hours you might want to go do something else.

Edited December 15, 2014 by LocoWithGun

[sp33chle55]

Plot twist. You were fighting a staged event. Real twin queens knew exactly you would come and let you fight their doppelgangers which every mighty dictator has.

The everlasting struggle continues.

And the wall of text blakrana wrote is pretty much collecting everything wrong with raids. Well done.

Edited December 15, 2014 by sp33chle55

[Omnimorph]

There are many people that lag when hosting 4 players.

 

How exactly would 10 or more players be handled by the game OP? Dedicated servers? 

 

 

I don't see why not, they've already started judiciously introducing dedicated servers now (the hubs) I should think they will extend the process to have more persistent spaces, and be able to handle complex endgame types of missions.  At least I hope so.  The current system is great for the bread-and-butter missions, neat, cheap and clever.  But if they're going to have complex, challenging missions that important (in the #firstworldproblems sense :) ) things hang on, then I can't see any way around it, they're going to have to have some dedicated servers.

 

Eventually, I hope they have a few large scale persistent world spaces, then this wonderful game will be a "true" MMO, and one of the best.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Omnimorph

[Omnimorph]

Pretty sure because it's an opinion on endgame raids. >_>

 

 

Which he hasn't experienced and doesn't like the sound of?  Sure it's an opinion, but you know what they say about that kind of opinion ... :)

 

Wrt to the quality of the endgame content, he has some points, but they're what anyone would say about "challenging" content worth that label.  Devs do take shortcuts to "challenge", and that can be annoying.  Let's hope DE have their heads screwed on about it.  They've steered a pretty good course so far!

[Blakrana]

In that case, I'm not sure why you think your opinion is relevant in this thread.

 

The close-knit teamwork teamwork that I've experienced with my friends in Warframe and Guild Wars 2 has been almost revolutionary for me...Until we end up requiring more people than just us in Guild Wars 2. Then it's a case of 'oh, not enough people have showed up, this is going to fail'.

 

I might be mistaken, but in my experience acknowledging subjectivity goes well when trying to state an argument, especially if you cannot attest for objectivity. But hey, just something I learned as part of my degree. Experiences differ, as do the lessons learned from it.

 

And I have to ask; why does your opinion have relevance? Is it because it's in assent, not opposition, because if so, that's an amusing Premise you're making. Please correct me that you're not implying what I think you are.

 

I saw a discussion about something that I've seen and talked about with friends, one being a fairly experienced WoW player who'd seen enough of the Raid 'Cat herding' as they call it to not want it again. And as much as a lot of people here seem to be thinking 'It has to work, it's the only way!', I feel I've got enough experience of games with a 4 Player hard cap that provided entertaining, challenging Boss Fights to find that point worth raising.

 

I may have only ever played these bosses on my own, but that is half the point; the Bosses in God Eater, Monster Hunter and Phantasy Star Portable 2 can all be fought Solo, or with friends. The irony that Monster Hunter's tagline is 'You're never alone' doesn't bother me. These games reward Teamwork and Skill quite well. I think my personal favourite was being the last person left standing against an Orga Anastasis (PSP2), basically duelling this absurdly powerful boss whilst my incapacitated teammates were shouting encouragement. I may have failed due to mistiming a block, but the fact that it was still possible to win without support is what I feel is good boss design.

 

So far as much as Solo players are Dynasty Warriors level Roflstomps if they so desire, as much as a group is, Warframe's general model is more in line with the aforementioned games that give you the entire freedom to either fight something Solo, or fight it with friends. Some are more irritating than others, but victory can be yours if you play smart. I've managed to kill Corrupted Vor using a Grinlok without the 'essential' Serration on it, doing just that. Heck, the only issue in that fight was some Shield Drone hangers on, but easily solved. Interesting to note but Vor still bleeds apparently.

 

Yet these Raid concepts, as interesting as the narrative question 'what could an actual army of Tenno do?' is, comes at the cost of disregarding everything that the game has been so far; a game that supports Solo or group play, albeit more of the latter, that doesn't necessitate that people use any 1 set of weapons or items to fight a boss. Sure, it's kind of a poor idea to go Pure Melee against Vay Hek, but that's still quite fair. Phantasy Star P2 particularly enjoyed Boss enemies that left you standing around, unable to attack, unless you brought a ranged weapon and funnily enough, the Type system let you spend points for weapon proficiencies; everyone had the capacity to equip any weapon they darned well pleased.

 

So, to reiterate my original point:

 

Games where bosses are designed with a maximum of 4 players can be fighting have been done before; some of these games are not only incredibly well grossing, due to the sheer integrity of the design, but are fun to play alone as well. You also aren't forced into using a particular weapon and, whilst the mentioned games do have Weapon Tiers, PSP2 had the Extend Code system, that let you make any weapon viable for Level 200 content; admittedly one of the few pieces of content locked behind Multiplayer so not exactly great, but it was there.

 

Whilst Raids may work for a traditional MMORPG, Warframe is not a traditional MMORPG. It's MMO, sure, but it's a lot more like Phantasy Star in the way missions are set up than it is like WoW or Guild Wars 2. Raids are for small, select types of people who can probably add 'Herder of Cats' to their CVs from what I understand of the tasks involved, where it boils down to someone shouting orders and/or raging at people who aren't 'specced properly' when they were just exploring at their leisure when a World Boss/Event spawned on them. Depending on how much of an arse the guy giving orders is pretty much determined how unfun the World Boss/Event would be.

 

There's nothing wrong with considering Raids fun. Never believe I'm saying that. But my argument is that a game can be designed to give 1-4 Players a solid combat experience that doesn't require them to rely on what I dub 'Playerwalls', only Pay-walls worse.

 

I can out grind a grindwall, I can wait out a timewall, but there is no means to overcome a Playerwall; if people aren't around, well, tough break kid. The fact that the current Era of gaming seems to be moving steadily towards enforcing Playerwalls/App connectivity to get in game items is something I find a growing concern in how it's being applied to even Single Player games. Multiplayer games, sure, makes sense, Single player? You're doing it wrong. But that is a different argument entirely~

[BoredFox]

Raids in Warframe wouldn't work. Blakrana's original post has already got a massive amount of reasons why they're not needed, but Warframe just isn't a game where a raid makes sense. You're meant to be a single, or team of, Ninja (personally I think more SAS/Spec Ops style unit, pure stealth is very rare). Tactical strikes on particular sections against the Grineer or Corpus, or taking out key aspects of the Infested, and the gameplay of the game reflects this. It's an over the shoulder 3rd person Action game with RPG elements (sorta, if you think about the mods. Not traditional method but hey). Suddenly having more than 4 people in one area with that sort of close camera angles would not work, and even if you don't lag you risk sheer inability to aim, or other people blocking your way, due to the amount of people. And before anyone suggests aspects like alteration of camera angle to be "suitable for the Raid", while not much as a request that's going to end up throwing a LOT of people off and damage the feel of the game.

 

Ok, I admit. I haven't actually been in a raid. To some, that apparently "makes my opinion invalid". I have, however, seen and spoken with friends who've played, play and have stopped playing WoW, GW and GW2, and others. They tell me the only reason people do raids is because it gives loot. No other reason. There's no fun, there's no RP, just a mass of people with assigned tasks with set character builds. That doesn't strike me as fun, it's just a mathematical formula with people filling in the set parts. My opinion? That doesn't sound like fun, that sounds dull. But hey, as the term goes, I'm just a "filthy casual".

 

A good boss fight, and some mini bosses along the way, with a 4 man team? That's themactially fitting for the game. A 10, 20 30+ Raid group against a grind boss? That's an entirely different ballgame and would be utterly out of place, sorry chaps.

In all other regards, I agree with Blakrana for the reasons he stated.

 

Leave the Twin Queens alone. We're here to keep the balance, not tear down nations. If you want to tear down nations, go chat with Rico Rodriguez from Just Cause, I'm sure he'll be happy to oblige. He's good at that...

Edited December 15, 2014 by BoredFox

[Mad-Macs]

Right.... I've played Guild Wars 1 and 2, Star Wars Galaxies, World of Warcaft, EVE Online, Ultima Online and I've been a guild/corp/clan leader in each and have experienced the pain of trying to sort out players for *any* sort of guild event.

 

It's a nightmare, especially if people haveto get the "right gear" for the job (and yes  it becomes one) which also can lead to dissilusionment and loss of enjoyment of the game

 

Second is arranging a time when everyone can get online to do it (and usually trying a raid with a pug leads to the Leeroy effect)

 

During the raid you have people suddenly going afk or people who haven't read up on the tactics and the whole thing fails.Or not enough people have brought tank/healer/cc types and it doesn't even get off the ground.

 

Then if the boss does go down as Blakrana stated it's case of "What next?" You've beaten the game wait until next endgame content, because ther *will* be clamorous calls for it.

 

Then the first lot of "end game" content will eventually be ignored for being too easy due to power creep which will just increase exponentially. AS HAS HAPPENED IN WORLD OF WARCAFT.... (it's really *not* a good thing)

 

 

BTW MR 13 ingame and currently 2 frames (Nyx and Loki primes) away from owning all of them... the hard way

Edited December 15, 2014 by Mad-Macs

[ROXXXY]

4 people in a mob of thousands of infested is already straining the average gaming computer, plus the Ping would go spazz. 10 people and thousands of Grineer equals computer crashing and exploding in your face.

[Noxramus]

This would be amazing.

+1

[meIody-]

I like the idea, but I'm casual and it would probably eat me (and my computer) alive.

[Omnimorph]

I might be mistaken, but in my experience acknowledging subjectivity goes well when trying to state an argument, especially if you cannot attest for objectivity. But hey, just something I learned as part of my degree. Experiences differ, as do the lessons learned from it.

 

 

But if you have no experience of the thing under discussion, why opine?

 

Your post is tendentious - "cat herding", etc.  So, OK, you don't like the sound of raids, from what others you know have said about them, what you've read about them, etc. 

 

That's a datum for the rest of us (who have experienced raids, whereupon they either like them or not), I suppose, and of course it's an opinion you're perfectly entitled to.  But what makes you think it's worth laying out in a discussion about raids?

 

From what I can gather, it seems you're afraid of something - like the game might change in a way you don't like?  But that doesn't follow at all from the existence of raids.  WoW has all sorts of content other than raids, teamed, solo, etc.  And Warframe would continue to have all sorts of content - teamed, solo, etc. - if it had raids.  Having raids in a game doesn't make it a certain type of game, it just opens up that option for people who like it. 

 

(And a side-discussion would be, as I pointed out in an earlier post, how the presence of raids in a game does seem to be favourable for player retention and general popularity of games - paradoxically, even if the majority of the players don't experience them, having them seems to be good for a game, maybe it's good PR, or some kind of trickle-down effect or whatever, I don't know, but it seems to be the case.  If this is true, then really you ought to be wanting raids, because a more popular game means more money for the developers to put in more and varied content - which they will do if they get the chance, because they obviously want as many players, of as many different playstyles as feasibly possible, to play their game.)

Edited December 15, 2014 by Omnimorph