Idea: Players As Stalkers

[(PSN)SofeSNBR]

If it worked for the Souls games, it could work here too. However, there should be some changes for invaders. For example, block the hitman's abilites alotogether (else hysteria valkyrs will just rek erryone), but give them hp increase / dmg reduction so they don't get rekt too easily. I'd enjoy this, but I'm a souls player, so...

The thing is, souls games are generally devolped pvp aspect in mind, warframe isnt. Fromsoft putted a lot effort to pvp aspect(well as much as they could), DE didnt and most likely never will. Warframe started as PvE and merging PvE with PVP this late doesnt work, whole thing needs to be reworked, every weapon needs to be retuned and poison damage needs some serious rework.

 

Other thing is warframes themselves are way too different and unbalanced when compared each others, sure in souls games guy wearing heavy armor takes more hits than guy wearing light armor, but differences between those are far closer to each others than warframes in warframe.

 

Also i like to point out that ppl should ditch whole mindset "Well  souls games did it? why wont x game do it too? and it worked in souls games, so i should work in this game too" Its not some basic thing to do, it requires a lot talent to do like it is in souls game(you gotta remember, that PvE is still on when you get invaded, its no like PvE stops as soon invader appears) and i highly doubt that every game company can even do same. It also requires game's online to be builded like souls game online is right from beginning.

Edited December 14, 2014 by (PS4)SofeSNBR

[-YoRHa-]

But that isn't good, there shouldn't be a disadvantage to the invader if they are going up against someone stronger. It wouldn't be balanced or fair to the invader.

No don't pull that card on me, you aren't even paying attention to any of these issues. You miss my points in its entirety. 

And I am calm. Believe me, if I wasn't calm I wouldn't be even paying attention to this thread.

 

The power nerfs are once again PvE. DE specifically stated that they would balance PvP nerfs separately to the PvE. The fact that you are saying "just reduce the damage" shows that you think its fine to nerf them for this encounter alone when it is not needed at all. Just like this gamemode.

 

So you're saying that it's totally just and fair that the player who is spending his time and his patience to be f**ked over by someone who is even more scummy than the invader to just bolt around and not give any chance whatsoever? Well good luck in trying to make your gamemode fun, because with this issue glaring right at your face it most certainly wont be.

The amount of profanity in your post indicates you aren't calm and that you aren't thinking this through with a clear head. The nerfs could be separate or they could allow both players to be at full power. Think of it as a unique nightmare mode effect that only activates when the invasion is in progress and disappears when the invader leaves. It is also not fair and in bad taste for you to call the player trying to survive scum because they are running and avoiding damage. So yes it is completely just and fair for someone to run and avoid damage if they want to. You don't stand there and let someone gun you down in dark sectors? You don't stand there and let that heavy gunner in T4 empty it's rifle into your face do you?

Edited December 14, 2014 by SoulGem

[TheErebus.]

The amount of profanity in your post indicates you aren't calm and that you aren't thinking this through with a clear head. The nerfs could be separate or they could allow both players to be at full power. Think of it as a unique nightmare mode effect that only activates when the invasion is in progress and disappears when the invader leaves. It is also not fair and in bad taste for you to call the player trying to survive scum because they are running and avoiding damage. So yes it is completely just and fair for someone to run and avoid damage if they want to. You don't stand there and let someone gun you down in dark sectors? You don't stand there and let that heavy gunner in T4 empty it's rifle into your face do you?

I don't think swearing ever means someone isn't calm. Hell, I swear a lot in casual speech yet I'm still calm. So don't take what I say like I'm shouting it at you or that I'm 100% aggressive internet tough guy here. 

 

But that is the issue here. If they bring these nerfs into the PvE aspect, it will cause an outrage in the community. It's not that it is there for the PvP aspect that will make them angry (although the PvP in the PvE alone will cause a lot of outrage), it's the fact that DE promised us no change from the PvP would make its way to the PvE. So to have it come here is just annoying and breaks the promise they told us.

 

When I call someone scummy, I call them this because they use an unfair advantage to survive. Coptering is one of them. Becuase with coptering, the only way to catch up is with Ash's teleport or by coptering as well (But the coptering solution does help much because different weapons copter at different speeds). Don't think I don't want to survive, in fact I use so many methods in both WF and Dark Souls to survive but the thing is they are all fair. Coptering away at an incredibly fast speed isn't fair to the Stalker. If you can come up with a solution for the coptering (because this is the problem, not whether they are using movement to survive. The coptering is the issue here.)

[MaverickZero]

Keep spamming nonsense. *grabs popcorn*

 

Continue please. This thread is shaping up to be a good entertainment source.

[-YoRHa-]

I don't think swearing ever means someone isn't calm. Hell, I swear a lot in casual speech yet I'm still calm. So don't take what I say like I'm shouting it at you or that I'm 100% aggressive internet tough guy here. 

 

But that is the issue here. If they bring these nerfs into the PvE aspect, it will cause an outrage in the community. It's not that it is there for the PvP aspect that will make them angry (although the PvP in the PvE alone will cause a lot of outrage), it's the fact that DE promised us no change from the PvP would make its way to the PvE. So to have it come here is just annoying and breaks the promise they told us.

 

When I call someone scummy, I call them this because they use an unfair advantage to survive. Coptering is one of them. Becuase with coptering, the only way to catch up is with Ash's teleport or by coptering as well (But the coptering solution does help much because different weapons copter at different speeds). Don't think I don't want to survive, in fact I use so many methods in both WF and Dark Souls to survive but the thing is they are all fair. Coptering away at an incredibly fast speed isn't fair to the Stalker. If you can come up with a solution for the coptering (because this is the problem, not whether they are using movement to survive. The coptering is the issue here.)

The only solution to that promise would be to allow all warframe powers to go unnerfed while the pvp option is enabled or to allow some powers that are unblockable  to be blocked them. I was saying that only when the assassin accepts his mission and goes in, which he/she can only do with the pvp option toggled on, would receive certain effects to alter the 4th power if it is necessary. Similar to an extinguishing dragon key that only effects that one specific power to make it balanced. If that is unacceptable to both players should be allowed their full potential, much like in conclaves. Quickest solution to coptering i can think of on the spot would be to for a lockdown to occur once the assassin and hunted are in the same vicinity. This way they would have to eventually face their opponent as they can't copter forever in an enclosed space while being shot at or facing a barrage of various powers.

[MaverickZero]

@SoulGem: and at the end what do you want to get out of this?

 

If it's PvP fun then hit the conclaves/dueling rooms/dark sector conflicts. PvP fun is confined to those places. DE's made those for PvP fun.

[Circle_of_Psi]

Edited December 14, 2014 by LegionCynex

[Separius]

Keep spamming nonsense. *grabs popcorn*

 

Continue please. This thread is shaping up to be a good entertainment source.

 

 

Ayy lma0, trying this hard to be internet-cool. Stay euphoric.

Edited December 14, 2014 by Separius

[Zeptimus]

Get Castanas
Make them deal radiation damage
Proc yourself
Kill your fellow teammates

You can thank me later

[Separius]

The thing is, souls games are generally devolped pvp aspect in mind, warframe isnt. Fromsoft putted a lot effort to pvp aspect(well as much as they could), DE didnt and most likely never will. Warframe started as PvE and merging PvE with PVP this late doesnt work, whole thing needs to be reworked, every weapon needs to be retuned and poison damage needs some serious rework.

 

Other thing is warframes themselves are way too different and unbalanced when compared each others, sure in souls games guy wearing heavy armor takes more hits than guy wearing light armor, but differences between those are far closer to each others than warframes in warframe.

 

Also i like to point out that ppl should ditch whole mindset "Well  souls games did it? why wont x game do it too? and it worked in souls games, so i should work in this game too" Its not some basic thing to do, it requires a lot talent to do like it is in souls game(you gotta remember, that PvE is still on when you get invaded, its no like PvE stops as soon invader appears) and i highly doubt that every game company can even do same. It also requires game's online to be builded like souls game online is right from beginning.

 

"The thing is, souls games are generally devolped pvp aspect in mind"

 

Yet scraping spear happened. Frontal lagstab happened. Thrust weapons hitting you while you were next to the enemy happened. Bad netcode happened. Yet people enjoy it.

 

"Other thing is warframes themselves are way too different and unbalanced when compared each others"

 

And havelmage, haveljester, haveldemon wasn't? Katanas aren't? Pre-nerf mundane Saintier's spear, avelyn weren't? Yet people still play it.

 

"Also i like to point out that ppl should ditch whole mindset "Well  souls games did it? why wont x game do it too?""

 

You get to keep your mindset and they get to keep theirs, fair deal?

 

"you gotta remember, that PvE is still on when you get invaded, its no like PvE stops as soon invader appears"

 

Neither does it stop when the stalker/g3/zanuka/c. vor invades, np.

Edited December 14, 2014 by Separius

[-YoRHa-]

@SoulGem: and at the end what do you want to get out of this?

 

If it's PvP fun then hit the conclaves/dueling rooms/dark sector conflicts. PvP fun is confined to those places. DE's made those for PvP fun.

Read some of my posts please. It could be standing points with your syndicate and/or fun. I'm just supporting the OP and explaining how this would be possible without forcing anyone to pvp. That way no one gets killed by another player if they don't want to.

Edited December 14, 2014 by SoulGem

[Fari]

You can pause in solo

Wait, how? I've never been able to do that, opening up menu never seemed to.

 

Anyways, I'm against forced PVP, maybe as a toggled option to let people attack you, maaaybe, I still don't think it'd be worth the resources but it'd be more alright then. Don't force stalker out of his job though :( next thing you know he'll be in hubs with a cardboard box, "will kil 4 change"

[Eidolon_Slayer]

Wait, how? I've never been able to do that, opening up menu never seemed to.

 

Anyways, I'm against forced PVP, maybe as a toggled option to let people attack you, maaaybe, I still don't think it'd be worth the resources but it'd be more alright then. Don't force stalker out of his job though :( next thing you know he'll be in hubs with a cardboard box, "will kil 4 change"

You mean Primebucks.

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

Moved to a more appropriate subforum.

[-YoRHa-]

Don't force stalker out of his job though :( next thing you know he'll be in hubs with a cardboard box, "will kil 4 change"

This made me laugh. +1

[Tsukinoki]

Biggest issues I see are these:
-Say you're doing a Rescue, Defense, or MDef mission and the player invades.
What's to stop him from instantly destroying your objective and forcing a mission failure on the party, or in rescue from alerting the guards and causing them to kill the target before you can get him from the cell?

-Whats to stop him from getting into one of the 'secret' rooms and camping there to insta-kill any player that tries to come in?
As he is immune to all power damage and he locks down the tile when he invades it would be easy for him to camp in a place that he can't be attacked from and wait for you to show up to kill you in one or two hits at the most before you can do anything, preventing you from leaving the room or doing anything else.

-Assuming that he is the stalker frame and not a normal frame, what's to stop him from spamming dispel?
Dispel deals 100 damage and causes  a brief stagger, and has infinite range and does not require LOS.
What's to stop him from spamming it a lightning speed and killing his target with it?
The only reason that the AI doesn't do that is it is programmed to only cast it when there is an ability active.

Similarly, he does have an ability that can teleport a player to him and cause a brief stun if the target gets too far away.
What's to stop a player controlled one from spamming it non stop and stagger-lock the player as he hits with dread until the player dies unable to do anything to fight back?
Because the stalkers AI can glitch and cause him to do this.
Player controlled stalkers would purposefully abuse it...

-Assuming that he can play a normal frame, what's to stop him from using an invulnerability power and wrecking the party without any chance of them fighting back?
Such as Valkyrs Hysteria?

-Assuming he spawns into a low level squad, what's to stop him from killing everyone who isn't his target over and over and over again when his target doesn't have a weapon that can kill him?

Edited December 14, 2014 by Tsukinoki

[MaverickZero]

Read some of my posts please. It could be standing points with your syndicate and/or fun. I'm just supporting the OP and explaining how this would be possible without forcing anyone to pvp. That way no one gets killed by another player if they don't want to.

You pretty much answered me with this. You shouldn't farm reputation using this PvP 'thing' because:

A) you gain or lose a small amount.

B) You risk losing your hard-earned reputation points for a chance to gain a small amount.

 

If the reward is significant (same as PvE or better) then:

A) You risk a large amount of reputation points for a chance to win a large amount.

B) The PvE vs. PvP rep gain disparity in terms of ease of gaining and the time it takes will severely hurt the community. Putting pressure on PvE players to do this PvP because of easier gains. Calls for nerfs or removal will come. 

 

If there is no reward then: You are playing PvP for fun. This already exists in 3 different formats and a 4th feature to compete for the available PvP focused playerbase is redundant. The PvP playerbase is already too small to arrange anything for it (competitions/streams).

[-YoRHa-]

You pretty much answered me with this. You shouldn't farm reputation using this PvP 'thing' because:

A) you gain or lose a small amount.

B) You risk losing your hard-earned reputation points for a chance to gain a small amount.

 

If the reward is significant (same as PvE or better) then:

A) You risk a large amount of reputation points for a chance to win a large amount.

B) The PvE vs. PvP rep gain disparity in terms of ease of gaining and the time it takes will severely hurt the community. Putting pressure on PvE players to do this PvP because of easier gains. Calls for nerfs or removal will come. 

 

If there is no reward then: You are playing PvP for fun. This already exists in 3 different formats and a 4th feature to compete for the available PvP focused playerbase is redundant. The PvP playerbase is already too small to arrange anything for it (competitions/streams).

No one said anywhere that this would be another method for farming reputation as it would be random and only available to people that participate. I can only think of conclaves, clan duels which are basically conclaves imo but in the dojo, and dark sectors conflict. What is this 4th you are referring to? You interpreted my posts incorrectly therefore i didn't answer your initial question. To clarify this for you, it would NOT be for farming rep. It wouldn't be placing pressure as it wouldn't be focused on large gains of rep. The sheer amount of rep one can gain from affinity in missions would always outclass what a mission can give as a completion bonus.

 

As for it being for fun, this is a game and people play games for fun. So if a new feature is added that could potentially add another type of fun for some players that would enjoy this type of thing instead of conclaves, duels or dark sector conflicts. Then there wouldn't really be any inherent drawbacks, except for the ones people create through negativity. This as a feature would be more of a casual pvp experience anyway due to how it should or would work.

Edited December 14, 2014 by SoulGem

[MaverickZero]

Carry on then. You don't want to hear anyone but yourself. This echo chamber is doing its job.

[-YoRHa-]

Carry on then. You don't want to hear anyone but yourself. This echo chamber is doing its job.

Bye.

[Dragonknight525]

To be honest the only way I'd see us playing as the stalker being added in is a stand alone mode. While it wouldn't be what most people seem to have in mind, it wouldn't have any direct influence on the PvE. For an example of what I'm suggesting it would be along the lines of Halo's Juggernaut gamemode, one player is the stalker the rest could use their own gear or standard set.

[Separius]

Okay how about this.

 

This one Valkyr is allies with New Loka. He picks out a pvp assassination mission, and randomly gets matched with a victim, a Steel Meridian member.

 

After a loading screen she arrives in a puff of smoke with a full energy bar, facing 4 warframes, one of them is a Rhino prime wielding a boltor prime, because why not. The target of the assassination, however, is a Frost.

 

The Frost decides to leg it and hide, while the rest being to shoot at our Valkyr. Valkyr uses Hysteria, which gives her 40% damage reduction (because it's perfectly reasonable to not want her to be invurnerable in a situation like this, I agre with that), but it caps out at 80% total damage reduction, so if our valkyr has, say 40% by default, gets 30% for being in 1v4 - 10% for each of the target's allies, then her Hysteria only gives her 10% reduction against damage. Also let's not forget that now she's constrained to be melee only.

 

She gets kited around, but suddenly changes target and 4 shots the Rhino Prime, because why not, and the downed Rhino then turns invulnerable, as in Valkyr can't kill him for real.

 

Now these is two scenarios how this can play out from here:

 

Scenario A: Valkyr eventually loses so much HP, that she is forced to disappear in a puff of smoke or is killed off, while the Loki revives the Rhino Prime, wielding the Boltor Prime, because why not, and returns to her Liset with phat booty.

 

Scenario B: Valkyr catches up to her prey, 3shots it, then as the target is bleeding out, Valkyr kneels down, gets invulnerability and teleports away, Stalker style, her job done, and gets to a mission success screen with whatever rewards, I don't care. HOWEVER she also gets a message from ??? saying that her harming an innocent, the Rhino Prime with the Boltor P, she will be punished, and gets a chance to be invaded by up to Four players simultaneously in any mission she's doing at any given time, in order to discourage her from wiping out the assassination target's team. The system would also favor putting 4 player assassins against her, than against other targets, until either her or the given team of four assassins get rekt, with the same restrictions also applying to those assassins, a.k.a. they should not harm the Valkyr's party, just the bounty target.

 

Now tell me, aside from the fact that it makes not much sense lore-wise, does this sound that terribly unbearable and just not fun? If yes, explain why.

 

TL;DR: read it, don't be lazy, you are improving your own genes by reading it and not being lazy. I think.

Edited December 14, 2014 by Separius

[Invalid_Infinity]

I dont like PVP in warframe anyways. I am fairly sure I wont like it any more if I am forced into it.

 

This could be a gamemode for PVP I guess.

You could have one "Stalker" with extra shielding and health and have it fight three or four other tenno in a game of juggernaut. Whoever kills the stalker then becomes the stalker.

 

I would NEVER agree to player operated stalkers in PVE mode. That would &!$$ me off.

 

In refrence to a previous post on this topic I like the use of this: http://www.nooooooooooooooo.com/

 

Extremely appropriate.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Invalid_Infinity