Nullifier's Bubble Isn't Affected By Damage, And Here's Proof

[Andoryuu]

Just a question.

We have Arctic Eximi, rare unit with projectile blocking shield. Shouldn't Nullifiers block only abilities? You know, to diversify them from AEximi / to match their name / to not create unit that's more powerful and more common than AEximi at the same time?

[RofLB]

 

-snip-

 

High damage and low RoF weapons as well as shotguns are hit by this mechanics pretty hard while high RoF weapons (even most basic and unmoded ones) cope with it pretty well. I hope that is not what you guys want because it just reinforces current meta with BoltorP as single choice gun.

 

Consider maybe addition of upper damage threshold per shot after with bubble instantly pops. For example: if my weapon deals 30k (arbitrary number) damage per one shot then bubble pops. And if it less than that then it works according to current shrinking mechanics.

[DoomFruit]

Consider maybe addition of upper damage threshold per shot after with bubble instantly pops. For example: if my weapon deals 30k (arbitrary number) damage per one shot then bubble pops. And if it less than that then it works according to current shrinking mechanics.

That might be OK for something like the Opticor, but guns with a balance in the middle like the Latron Prime or crit-reliant weapons like bows will still suffer.

 

No, what the nullifier needs is to stop nullifying bullets. We've already got arctic eximus units to provide mobile cover.

[geninrising]

Really DERebecca? That is the most we get after illustrating how we are forced ignore our own choice in weaponry because of this heavily biased mechanic. I truly expected a much better response from you rather than "Suck it up cupcake"

 

No it is not a welcome change by any means EXCEPT for users that utilize high ROF weaponry.

 

This is ignorance and clearly ignores the companies touted byline of allowing players to play the way they want to.

 

So in effect we have no choice but to constantly question your companies integrity and design implementations even more so than we already do.

 

This statement is not dev bashing and if it is removed I will create many accounts in order to spam it across the forums as often as necessary until you either change said byline or live by it.

[Centias]

(bubble numbers)

 

So basically you're saying that an extremely weak, rapid-fire weapon doing less than 100 damage gets bumped up to 100 damage per shot, guaranteeing it does at least 6% to Corpus nullifier's bubble or 4% to Corrupted, yet no matter how much damage my weapon can do over 400, only 400 will ever matter?

 

This, along with the extremely overpowered weapon they carry, is the major problem people have with these ridiculous enemies. Slower weapons built for hard hits should be BETTER at popping those bubbles than faster weapons. My multi-forma'd Opticor should be absolutely decimating those bubbles without a care in the world. It should feel like popping bubble wrap after a stressful day.

 

This was an enemy designed to stop powers, yet it also for some reason completely destroys the validity of some weapon options simply by having some arbitrarily selected damage cap per frame. Simply put, more damage in should always destroy the bubble faster. More players shoot it, it breaks faster. Player uses insanely high-powered single-shot cannon or sniper-type or shotgun, bubble breaks FASTER. I love using the big, slow weapon as my primary and taking out key targets, and this is a prime example of an enemy that I should be perfectly equipped to deal with, but the results are literally the polar opposite of what they should be.

 

Or the nullifier can just get some more health and shields and the bubble can stop blocking bullets.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Centias

[Luster-Purge]

 

Incoming explanation for how shield destruction works at this time:

 

The Nullifier shields are destroyed based on a series of calculations performed based your weapon's damage (enhanced/mitigated within a formula) per frame and the 'shrink rate' of the Nullifier Shields. 

 

Every frame a sample is taken of damage done to the Nullifier Shield.

 

Step 1) If the amount of damage is less than 100, it is set to 100. If the amount of damage is greater than 400, it is set to 400. 

Step 2) Divide that amount by 100 and multiply the default shrink rate (6% of max size for Corpus, 4% of max size for Corrupted) by that value.

 

If you're keen on the calculations and know a thing or two about math, click the spoiler for the real 'under-the-hood':

 

 

 

Example 1 - You hit it with a Braton and do 18 damage.  Step 1 indicates anything less than 100 is set to 100, so we perform that. Then, divide that value by 100 == 1.0. Then, we multiply the default shrink rate by that value. So for a Corpus Nullifier its 6%, which equates to:

0.06 * 1.0 = 0.06. We then shrink the shield by that amount.

 

Example 2 -  You hit it with something stronger, doing 150 damage. 150/100 = 1.5 * 0.06 = 0.09 == shrink the shield by 9% of the max size.

 

Example 3 - You hit the shield for 1000 damage. That's greater than 400, so I set it to 400. 400/100 = 4.0 * 0.06 = 0.24. So the shield is shrunk by 24%

 

And those values are based on the current size of the shield, not always max size. So the shield starts at a 1.5x scale, and if the first shot is multiplied by 4x to drop it by 24%, it will now decrease to 1.15x scale. The next shot will decrease it to a scale that is 24% less than 1.15, which is around 0.87.

 

So there are some diminishing returns there as the shield is damaged. 

 

Another thing to consider - the shield responds to damage per frame. So if you shoot it with a weapon like the Hek that hits it with multiple pellets in a single frame, it's the cumulative damage of those shots that is considered. So hitting it with 3 pellets at once, each doing 1000 damage really isn't any different than hitting it once for 1000 damage. Since in both cases, that damage is normalized down to the max multiplier of 4x.

 

However, there would be an impact if you are using a weaker weapon that does less than 400 per pellet! 

 

Now, clearly to me it's the mitigation within the formula that has all of our Arsenals at a loss on the 'best way' to deal with this enemy- but if you are a Corpus you say 'Yes, our Damage Reduction system technology is working quite well'. If you fire with your 4x Forma'd Dread and expect your usual damage output to be reflected, it won't.  This leads us to where we are today with our Nullifier feedback and experiences. 

 

Even if the enemy isn't perfect, they're different, and a change of tactics is a welcome addition in principle to me. I am playing a variety of games right now that have 'that one enemy' that when appears sets me on a different course of action. Definitely open to more discussion and thoughts here. Thanks for your patience while this reply was put together (with details from the dev team). 

 

Facinating.

 

It's stuff like the presenting of the hard mathmatical mechanics to explain the reasoning behind making the Nulifiers possibly the most hated enemy in the game that shows the DE crew aren't being totally sadistic to the player base. Generally, Nulifiers on their own (as in not remotely close to populating an entire planet that the Tenno drive a hijacked self-destructing bomb-on-treads through) do balance things so it's not just mashing the ultimate power trigger over and over.

 

I knew there was a damage cap!

 

But seriously 400 is way too low. Especially considering there's also a lower cap of 100. Almost every full auto gun will spit far over 4x the number of bullets a slower gun would.

 

It devalues the heck out of big damage slow fire rate guns.

No it doesn't.

 

If anything, it makes the idea of having the secondary weapon be able to cover for the primary even more important for such cases. Nulifier pops up and you're low on ammo for your sniper? Whip out a DoT projectile weapon like the Nukor, Spectra, or Gammacor, or a high RoF secondary like the Akstilletto or Twin Gremlins. With a 400 damage cap but guaranteed 100 damage minimum, the Nulifiers are super-strong against high damage outright, but cripplingly weak to high RoF/low power weapons.

 

EDIT: For those complaining about how this hits high-power, low ROF guns extremely negatively...the shield doesn't block gunfire from inside the dome. You just need to play a bit smarter than just relying on nuking everything on sight with one trigger pull. The Nullifier has buddies? Fire at the shield to shrink it and then take cover to dodge cover fire, then play cat and mouse with the goons who decide to leave safety. For as strong as Nullifiers are with their invuln shields and the sniper gun, they're only one enemy. A little strategy in controling the battleground (I.E. open Corpus bays are better to maneuver around than narrow cooridors) and knowing when to fight or flee can give one an edge on a nullifier, since for all their OP-ness...they're no good when all their buddies are picked off and the tenno is behind them where their gun sights ain't.

 

Somewhat unrelated, but I think a good idea of conceptualizing how Nullifiers require planning angles of attack other than simply head-on with sheer force is like the Mr. Freeze battle in Arkham City, as he's more or less invincible from direct attack and the player must strike him by exploiting his blind weak spots through stealth tatics in three different variations on easy (and hard mode requires players to utilize all nine possible angles of indirect attack). In Warframe, at least, you don't need to use nine different methods to kill individual Nullifiers, you just need to control the terrain to only need one.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Luster-Purge

[xylonez]

No it doesn't.

 

If anything, it makes the idea of having the secondary weapon be able to cover for the primary even more important for such cases. Nulifier pops up and you're low on ammo for your sniper? Whip out a DoT projectile weapon like the Nukor, Spectra, or Gammacor, or a high RoF secondary like the Akstilletto or Twin Gremlins. With a 400 damage cap but garunteed 100 damage minimum, the Nulifiers are super-strong against high damage outright, but cripplingly weak to high RoF/low power weapons.

Are you crazy? Which part of the "you need to bring at least 1 weapon with High RoF" seems fascinating to you?

 

Oh, I want to bring my Hek for close range, and Vaykor Marelok for long range. Whoop-dee-doo, you can't because it took literally 9 shots with any weapons to actually kill nullifier's bubble. So now, I need to resort to high RoF Primary (Boltor P, Soma P) and/or Secondary (Synoid Gammacor) which is boring as hell.

 

Part of what makes the games interesting is the element of high risk, high reward. Basically, the higher the risk, the higher the reward. Weapons that requires aiming, slow RoF, small mag cap, yet destructive powers is considered the same. You put in nullifier's mechanic into the equation and you take away the "high reward" part.

 

Guess what we'll be left when you take out high reward from a high risk weapon? That's right, a useless weapon, a bullshi* and flawed mechanics. So much for diversity and customization in warframe when you need to stick with your High RoF weapons.

[Bleako]

I'm on DERebecca's side here, Nullifiers do bring an unique mechanic to the fights that encourage players to change their tactics which is good game design. Some of my favorite games (Metroid Prime, for instance) followed that same principle - enemies had weak points and players had to figure out the optimal tactic to defeat each of them.

 

However, the issue here is that the game's mechanics themselves do not reward players for switching tactics mid-fight. Melee combat is too risky because most Warframes are too frail to withstand focus-fire, shotguns do not have the necessary damage output to warrant using them in close range and - most important of all - Warframe abilities are so easily spammable and so efficient at controlling crowds that players got used to relying on them and therefore aren't used to fighting enemies up-close and personal. This isn't the players' fault, we are all driven by efficiency.

 

For instance, in 95% of situations, Ash players can simply spam Blade Storm and never actually have to engage the enemy using their own player skills - the ability does the job for them. Since Nullifiers prevent players from using their abilities, they are therefore forced to use their weapons to kill them. Bows, snipers and shotguns aren't powerful enough to pop the bubbles quickly enough (which you could argue is acceptable) and blocking/charging in with a melee weapon is still too dangerous in a lot of cases.

 

There is only one optimal strategy here and it's to fight the Nullifiers in the exact opposite way that they were designed to be fought: from afar, with a rifle.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Bleako

[Glitchesarecool]

Frankly, I would be happy if one of two things happened.

1: Bullet Punchthrough could pass through the bubble shields at a certain threshhold.

2: There was an actual total health that would pop the bubble, and none of this "max 400 damage per shot" nonsense.

I was under the impression at the time of the patch that the second thing had actually happened. Then I played the game and watched my Lanka bullets bounce harmlessly off like I was throwing a rock at the damn thing, while it only shrunk by a tiny bit. They're still the same as they were pre-patch, DE just managed to work it around damage and make them a bit easier to pop with high ROF weapons. As many people have observed, it's pushed other fun weapons off to the sides.

I still feel like the Nullifier is a hamfisted approach to a gameplay problem in general, and I really hope the feedback in this thread actually affects the mechanics of the bubble. At the very least, I'd like to see them out of the void where their arbitrary "difficulty" addition turns into an impossible mess beyond 20 minutes in survival. Seriously, I get an Arctic variant spawning alongside two normal ones sometimes.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Glitchesarecool

[ArbitUHM]

...

 

So now, I need to resort to high RoF Primary (Boltor P, Soma P) and/or Secondary (Synoid Gammacor) which is boring as hell.

 

...

 

FFS there are other high RoF weapons besides the Boltor Prime, Soma Prime, and Synoid Gammacor!  Plus you only need to bring one (primary or secondary, not both which is freaking pointless) or you can bring zero yourself and coordinate your arsenal with your teammates.  Moderate rate of fire weapons, including many semi-autos and some shotguns, work fine, too.

 

Seriously, I'm starting to think the only weapons people have in their arsenal are Boltor/Soma Prime, Synoid Gammacor, and Dread/Paris Prime.  Get some new friggin weapons

[Luster-Purge]

Are you crazy? Which part of the "you need to bring at least 1 weapon with High RoF" seems fascinating to you?

 

Oh, I want to bring my Hek for close range, and Vaykor Marelok for long range. Whoop-dee-doo, you can't because it took literally 9 shots with any weapons to actually kill nullifier's bubble. So now, I need to resort to high RoF Primary (Boltor P, Soma P) and/or Secondary (Synoid Gammacor) which is boring as hell.

 

Part of what makes the games interesting is the element of high risk, high reward. Basically, the higher the risk, the higher the reward. Weapons that requires aiming, slow RoF, small mag cap, yet destructive powers is considered the same. You put in nullifier's mechanic into the equation and you take away the "high reward" part.

 

Guess what we'll be left when you take out high reward from a high risk weapon? That's right, a useless weapon, a bullshi* and flawed mechanics. So much for diversity and customization in warframe when you need to stick with your High RoF weapons.

How do you deal with Artic Eximus shields, then?

 

The point of taking out nulfiers is that you CAN'T simply overwhelm everything in the game with ungodly damage output, the whole reason they exist is to encourage players to play a bit smarter than just blowing everyting away with raw DPS. The mere fact Nulifiers don't have truly bulletproof shields alone makes them not as inherently OP as say; Sargus Ruk who is invincible at all times except when his glowy blue bits are exposed, the last of which is on his back and tends to only open up when he's using his own version of Ember's "World on Fire".

 

The RoF thing is necessary only if direct attack is the only avenue of assault you wish to employ. Which is kind of silly given this is a game about superpowered space ninjas who run on walls and have an obsession with Lotus blossoms.

[dragonkingdx]

Seriously all the complaining over slower rate of fire weapons is really just well weak in resolve besides "Omg I cant break the bubble of this 1 enemy with my paris/dread/opticor and its my fav weapon cuz I dun wanna be like those soma p/boltor p users".

 

People act like it totally ruins the point in using them. However nullifiers are 1 singular enemy compared to the hoards of other enemies thrown at them they are a minority. Heck you have a team as well to aid you. I highly doubt any random team would consist of 4x slower firing weapons as main/side. It requires some coordination (which god this community needs more of). You can keep your preference of weapons just fine, hell I use opticor as much as I can when im not lvling MR fodder weaps.

 

However if I see a nullifier I either

A) melee it if there isnt a substantial amount of enemies around it

B) use a higher firing sidarm (again when not lvling some MR fodder)

or C) ignore it and kill other enemies around it allowing team mates with high ROF weaps take it down. Hey im not meant to kill everything I see if I have a mismatched weapon, I can try but hey if I die then its fine my bad.

 

Option A fails when you have too many enemies near/in the bubble, Option B fails only when you choose to bring 2 heavy hitting slow ROF weaps. The only time Option C would ever fail is if you choose to fail option B and play solo, or if you just plain dont communicate with your team/run off randomly instead of sticking together. (then its your fault there) 

 

As for getting 1 shot I have hardly seen it happen, a few times when they were first introduced I did get 1 shot by them. I keep moving killing and taking them out beforehand and yes ive made it to 40-55 mins in t4 survival so ive seen 3-5 nullifiers at once in rooms with bombards/heavies. (which actually provide much more of a threat than the nullifier itself)

 

They've introduced the meaning of teamwork and choices with nullifiers. You choose to take a slower firing weapon then you choose not to be able to kill a nullifier with said weapon. And take the role of taking out heavies saving higher ROF weapon users ammo that they can use to take down the nullifiers. However the community who actually cares to bring powerful 1 shot weapons everywhere ofc will complain when its not as viable against a certain enemy. Just because they feel it as an insult to how they play (which it isnt) instead of just getting over it

 

Tenno now (and this a general statement not directed at anyone as harsh as it sounds) are too accustomed to being the big shots that they are and able to kill everything with any of the top tier weaps/spam of abilities instead of relying on teamwork to take down opponents (where only said teamwork before was bring a trin and spam 4/revive downed teammates) People need to communicate more and get out of their comfort zone. The tactical alert had a level of teamwork needed and was relatively simple once you found a working combo, otherwise failure. That fail and lose concept is too much for this community because many people have gotten too accustomed to winning too much/nearly every time and not being able to be taken down a few pegs. With such weaker enemies there is no concept of a challenge. You end up slaughtering everything with relative ease (meaning until the levels skyrocket closer to the 100+ mark) with decent-> end tier weaps/a properly modded warframe. The nullfiers introduce a concept of "if you dont handle this right/work together your screwed and fail" I commend DE for adding them as they provide a challenge and a reason for players to communicate more often. (instead of just running through missions barely saying a word because everyone knows how to kill every basic enemy set with a decent weap.

 

It may be harder for single shot/lower RoF players to accept atm since its only slightly weakened a weapon in actual gameplay. And that slight weaken is because its 1 dang enemy, while its still has the same effectiveness nearly everywhere else. I could understand an uproar if we have 30-75 or so of these things ganging up on you at once but honestly thats not happening.

Edited January 27, 2015 by dragonkingdx

[Katinka]

Really DERebecca? That is the most we get after illustrating how we are forced ignore our own choice in weaponry because of this heavily biased mechanic. I truly expected a much better response from you rather than "Suck it up cupcake"

 

No it is not a welcome change by any means EXCEPT for users that utilize high ROF weaponry.

 

This is ignorance and clearly ignores the companies touted byline of allowing players to play the way they want to.

 

So in effect we have no choice but to constantly question your companies integrity and design implementations even more so than we already do.

 

Wow.  Um, what?  Get over yourself and stop taking the game so seriously.  So there is an enemy that is strong against your favourite weapon.  So what?  Find another way to deal with them.  Use your secondary, melee, team-mates, companions, specters...

 

This statement is not dev bashing...

 

In my opinion, it pretty much was.

 

Slower weapons built for hard hits should be BETTER at popping those bubbles than faster weapons. My multi-forma'd Opticor should be absolutely decimating those bubbles without a care in the world. It should feel like popping bubble wrap after a stressful day.

 

Why should slower weapons be better?  Is it not possible that the Corpus developed a shield specifically to tackle Tenno powers and high power long range weapons?  Maybe it's supposed to be strong against a single hit but the weight of fire of repeated hits overloads it.

 

PS:  Originally decimating was killing one in ten so your Opticor is fine at that since it destroys 16% per shot.

 

Are you crazy? Which part of the "you need to bring at least 1 weapon with High RoF" seems fascinating to you?

 

Oh, I want to bring my Hek for close range, and Vaykor Marelok for long range. Whoop-dee-doo, you can't because it took literally 9 shots with any weapons to actually kill nullifier's bubble.

 

It 'literally' takes 7 shots to take down a Corrupted Nullifier shield (and 5 to take down a regular Nullifier).  400+ damage give 4x4%=16%.  100/16=6.25. (4x6%=24% 100/24=4.1667 for regular).  What's the magazine size on your Vaykor Marelok?  Without mods it's 10 which means you can rattle 7 into the shield and you still have 3 chances to shoot him in the face afterwards.

[blasron]

How do you deal with Artic Eximus shields, then?

 

 

simple a single arrow from a paris P, dread or a blast of the opticor or even better 2 round of my vaylok marelok.

[Llyssa]

Something else to point out: Castanas and Penta can be placed on the ground in front of a nullifier. If you then just wait for them to advance, and then detonate, you get a 1HK. Quite easy.

[Llyssa]

I have the ballistica. I have used it against them but it isn't very effective if I remember correctly.

 

A workaround isn't a solution you know! xD

You don't remember correctly. Clicking 3 times with the rakta ballistica pops a null's bubble, and usually kills him to boot.

[Llyssa]

((Also, you guys, seriously, one melee slide attack does the trick.))

[Tyrian3k]

((Also, you guys, seriously, one melee slide attack does the trick.))

 

Yes, I'm sliding into a bubble with two Nullifiers and several Bombards. If I can't kill both Nullifiers at once, I'm screwed, if I do, the Bombards will still kick my &#! in no time. If I stay outside, the Bombards can shoot me with tons of rockets which are quite difficult to avoid in large amounts. If they blast proc me, the Nullifiers oneshot me while knocked down. There are highly annoying constellations that can appear in the void.

[Centias]

Why should slower weapons be better?  Is it not possible that the Corpus developed a shield specifically to tackle Tenno powers and high power long range weapons?  Maybe it's supposed to be strong against a single hit but the weight of fire of repeated hits overloads it.

 

PS:  Originally decimating was killing one in ten so your Opticor is fine at that since it destroys 16% per shot.

 

Why should faster weapons be better? Did you consider that faster weapons already are better, in nearly every aspect of this game? And consider that your logic for repeated hits should carry over to shotguns with many pellets hitting roughly the same area (such as the quite accurate Hek), but as has been clearly represented, it doesn't. I was attempting to present that slow, hard-hitting weapons are objectively the worst possible options for dealing with that bubble, when they already have a very high tendancy to do less DPS and be more situational to use. My thinking was that a hard-hitting weapon punching one hole, in all that coverage should be much more effective than randomly pumping out tiny rounds until it overloads, since the entire role of a sniper is taking out key targets. It ends up being another slap in the face for shotgun, sniper and whatever-you-call-Opticor users, who already tend to feel neglected.

 

Anything but "shoot 7 shots or use a different weapon" because no, it is not "fine". All weapon types should be capable of breaking through the bubble at some pace that is reasonable for that weapon, and 7 shots for a very slow weapon is not reasonable. And in the case of many of those weapons, 2 shots isn't either. Some of those weapons do so much damage in one shot the Nullifier should die right along with the bubble if it was aimed well enough, but I could live with just the bubble breaking first. Anything that isn't just being told I need to change my playstyle and choose higher fire rate weapons just to deal with one enemy. Think about it the other way around: I don't see any basic enemy being introduced that absorbs all your bullets from that rapid fire Soma or Boltor Prime like it's nothing and pushing players to user slower weapons just to be able to take them out, let alone all their nearby friends.

 

I will concede, though, that I made a somewhat poor choice with 'decimating' as I was not aware of that historical definition (never heard it, or heard anyone use it in such context). Let's go with 'obliterating' then, or 'annihilating'.

[Edgedemon]

i think they should allow weapons to punch through the shield at 2.0 or 2.5 meters, that way the shield would still stop regular weapons even with shred, but would let us mod our weapons to take the nullifier out like the priority target that he is at a great expense (2 mods for most weapons).

 

optionally they could stack damage received, and apply it overtime after a damage reduction, allowing the shield to make its 'Shrink Rate' sequence and at least stop one bullet , which i think would mean at least 10 hits for 400 damage:

 

example:

 

my Paris Prime hits for 8000 damage (the shield ignores critical hits), the impact damage is split into 8 hits for 1000 damage each and then they receive the current formula means almost taking down the shield in a time span of around 500 ms.  still much lower than what a Braton would get but manageable. 

 

 

 

Incoming explanation for how shield destruction works at this time:

 

The Nullifier shields are destroyed based on a series of calculations performed based your weapon's damage (enhanced/mitigated within a formula) per frame and the 'shrink rate' of the Nullifier Shields. 

 

Every frame a sample is taken of damage done to the Nullifier Shield.

 

Step 1) If the amount of damage is less than 100, it is set to 100. If the amount of damage is greater than 400, it is set to 400. 

Step 2) Divide that amount by 100 and multiply the default shrink rate (6% of max size for Corpus, 4% of max size for Corrupted) by that value.

 

 

joining damage and frame rate is perhaps the worse idea i have ever seen

 

According to Rebecca's post, a piece-wise function with such a large damage mitigation is the reason our bows tend to end up being quite useless.

My suggestion then, is to set the max reduction of the shield when using a bow or similar to 50% of the current value of the shield. (If the max is 1.5 then it is depleted to .75. If the current value of the shield is less than half the max value of the shield, then the bow shot is allowed to be capable of destroying the shield.
This equation, then, is ever changing.

Should you use a bow on a Nullifier shield at 1.5 scale, the max shrinkage can be .75, as calculated by the equation

this would still require 3-6 seconds of concentrated fire to break one shield, that is if the shield doesn't start regenerating before you can fire again 

 

 

The nullification shield is not what bothers me about nullifiers, its that Lanka of theirs. Was playing in a T4 void (around 40 min survival) and a single nullifier downed all 4 players in a matter of 1 and a half seconds. And we were all moving around as well. The fire rate on their lankas is just too damn high. 

 

true their worse problem is they are at the same time support, bullet sponges AND heavy hitters, while the shield is indeed broken reducing their raw damage input would make "ability nullifier" be their main role and make melee takedowns more feasible.

[Gizogin]

Why should faster weapons be better? Did you consider that faster weapons already are better, in nearly every aspect of this game? 

 

This might be true.  Certainly, most fighting in WF is against hordes of easily-dispatched mooks, and bullet hoses would seem to hold the advantage here.  Heavies are more dangerous, and they might be an argument for bringing slower weapons to take them out, but then you're more vulnerable to the hordes.

 

Or are you?  I would hazard a guess that slow, high-damage weapons are at least on a level with bullet hoses in most situations.

 

How many frames can't make up for the downsides of low RoF weapons with powers?  There are 22 frames in the game right now.  Ash and Loki can hide (and Ash has Bladestorm).  Banshee, Limbo, Vauban, Hydroid, and Frost can lock down areas.  Trinity, Mirage, Zephyr, and Mesa can mitigate damage, even if their crowd damage isn't brilliant.  Valkyr can wade into a crowd with impunity.  Nyx performs best when surrounded by mooks.  Excalibur, Saryn, Rhino, Frost, Oberon, Mag, and Volt have spammable, AoE abilities.

 

So, every frame (with the possible exception of Nekros, because I've never seen anyone actually use Terrify, and Shadows of the Dead requires setup) can handle crowds of weak enemies in some way without weapons.  Handling heavies, however, is harder.  Abilities that can single out heavies in the way that bows and snipers can are rare, and they tend to be inconvenient or situational.  Banish is a good example, as is Bullet Attractor.

 

I can bring a Dread or an Opticor to crack tough targets while my abilities prevent me from being overwhelmed, but the reverse is much harder.  Another point of consideration is that crowds aren't actually a problem in several modes of play.  Sabotage, Exterminate, Capture, Deception, Rescue, Spy, and Assassinate are all missions where crowds are not an issue, often because players will move through the map too quickly for hordes to gather.  Without this weakness, slow weapons actually have an advantage in non-endless missions.

 

Put all of this together, and it becomes easy to see why nullifier crewmen are so controversial.  They're heavies, but they're more vulnerable to high-speed weapons.  A player who favors slow weapons while relying on abilities to handle fodder has no effective counter to a nullifier in his bubble.  He can't fight at long range, thanks to the crewman's Lanka.  He can't fight at mid-range, because he'll be overrun by weaker troops that his weapon cannot handle.  His only recourse is melee, which is dangerous to many frames that synergize with slow weapons.  In effect, they seem designed to punish one style of play above others (hence the idea to replace their Lankas with Tetras, giving them a weakness for the snipers and archers to exploit and level the playing field).

 

 

 

Personally, I like nullifier crewmen.  I think they're an interesting addition to the game.

[Tyrian3k]

Or are you?  I would hazard a guess that slow, high-damage weapons are at least on a level with bullet hoses in most situations.

 

Most enemies die in just a few shots from automatic weapons, so you don't kill heavies much faster with slow weapons and you cannot keep spamming 4 without always having a Trinity around, so you cannot keep weak enemies in check as easily as you think by just spamming 4. Not all 4th abilities that deal damage can clear rooms either.

 

Fast weapons can kill heavies and regular enemies with ease while slow ones can only kill heavies as effectively.

[VDeorsum]

Just a question.

We have Arctic Eximi, rare unit with projectile blocking shield. Shouldn't Nullifiers block only abilities? You know, to diversify them from AEximi / to match their name / to not create unit that's more powerful and more common than AEximi at the same time?

THIS^, really DE, THIS^

 

Something else to point out: Castanas and Penta can be placed on the ground in front of a nullifier. If you then just wait for them to advance, and then detonate, you get a 1HK. Quite easy.

isn't so easy,for example when a lot of enemies are around and shot you ad 40/60 min of T4 survival

[CrendKing]

 

Fast weapons can kill heavies and regular enemies with ease while slow ones can only kill heavies as effectively.

 

I completely agree with you on this. In this game some fast weapons have too much single bullet damage, making them OP, while slow weapons just inefficiently overkill most of the time.

Then I remember that most of the game that has minigun would always has "overheat" constraint. You fire the gun too fast for too long, you overheat it and can't use it anymore before it cools down. This is balance for its high RoF feature. Can Warframe have the same design, where every gun has a "stamina" like value and decreases whenever a bullet is fired. Once reach 0, the weapon has to cooldown for certain amount of time. With this design, slow RoF weapon may become balanced with high RoF weapons.

[Llyssa]

Everyone saying "not so easy" keeps rebuffing with a "I'm not very good at the game, dammit" explanation for why they can't resolve things the easy way.

 

Perhaps there needs to be more of a content lock to keep the lesser players away from nullifiers until they get good enough?