Bring Back Iron Skin Face Tanking

[geninrising]

I did state that it makes him a bit more even with Saryn, not fully equal or overtaking her.

lol was just giving the final verdict as to why Saryn was better in my overall calculations.

[fatpig84]

Rhino Charge is a lot shorter range then Slash Dash, and has a pretty terrible hit-box. If they improved its base range and made the hitbox not suck, I'd call it good then. Not to mention its distance traveled is reliant on power duration, which makes it a near useless skill if the Rhino specs for Power Strength.

 

Iron Skin really just needs to make it so it uses Rhino's armor instead of having its own, then give the Rhino a decent armor buff. Then the Rhino can at least choose to utilize Steel Fiber to imrpove his durability further.

 

As I said, Roar is solid, I don't think its bad. I don't even think it needs to be buffed, but I can't say its so good that we can afford to see Rhino get buffs elsewhere. If Roar has one downside, it is how reliant it is on warframe power modules, much like Ember's 4, it requires Strength, Range, Effeciency and Duration for its potential to be fully realized.

 

But seriously, I just want Iron Skin to get the buffed I proposed. I just want him to be durable in end game like he should be. It has been ages since I have felt like Rhino's durability was anything special.

 

 

I disagree with Rhino Charge sucking.

But again I do use a Roar Rhino so I have a lot of duration, so I got a rather respectable charge....

[BETAOPTICS]

I do not think he is that bad but scaling is what kills him and the thing is if his Iron Skin is buffed to last end game content, it becomes over powered in the rest. If Iron Skin is the way it is, then it is a nearly useless ability in the end game. If they go back in what it was originally which is timed Iron Skin invulnerability skill, then it again is over powered. It really is hard skill to balance out properly. Maybe it should have some kind of mechanic that lasts until a specific amount of hits has been absorbed. This way the damage in any stage of the game would not be a factor but rather how many hits you absorb. Then again, this could be overpowered depending how it would be scaled because this would be somewhat similar to the original version of the ability, sort of.

[sanj66]

Rhino IS a CC king, just not a CC god.  The only frames that can match or outdo him for large radial CC are banshee/loki/nova/oberon/nyx 5 frames out of more than 20, putting him firmly in the top 75%.  He's a cc king, face it.  No frame has absolutely perfect cc for every situation (before the power in use and nullifiers on rhino's stomp, HE did though, and it was broken).

 

Loki is a 1.5-2 second stun and then they are melee.  Banshee is a 1.5-2 second stun and then they are fully as capable as before, unless she literally locks herself down by channeling a stagger to them.  Nova is only a strong slow.  Oberon is about 2 seconds of total CC at higher levels, because no one dies and no one else is blinded.  Nyx has power in use too, and Mirage doesn't count, because it literally takes her more than 2 full seconds to cast hers.  Excalibur also doesn't count because his no longer penetrates walls.

 

Support frames and berserker don't out-tank the tank, and he's not a tank to begin with.  he's a heavy, bulky, supposed-to-be-slow frame (that isn't slow at all), there's nothing anywhere that says he's the one true tank.  Frost doesn't have any immunity to damage, neither does Saryn.  The closest we've ever had is old trinity before the blessing nerf, and current valkyr, but valkyr eats a nerf everytime she casts Hysteria, and Trinity already ate hers.  Mirage can't use hers in the vast majority of playable space, and is still CC vunlerable.  Mesa's is projectile only, and she's still CC vulnerable.  I didn't miss the point, I corrected the ahh... people like yourself attempting to get an already powerful frame buffed through pure illogic and stupidity.

 

No one cares what people use for a frame in archwing, the frame abilites no longer do anything, and the stats no longer carry over, so don't bring irrelevant things in.  If you don't see rhinos in void, it's because you don't play void, I average one every 1-2 missions, and often have two which means he gets somewhere between 12.5 and 25% of the frameage in the void from what I see,  probably closer to 25%.  THERE'RE FRICKEN 22 different frames now, the average for 4-man missions ought to be 18.2%, so if anything, he's overused.

 

I know that one shot from a bombard at level 35 will take my Trinity's full health bar, and a bit of the energy with quick thinking.  With link up and attached it takes the shields off almost perfectly, meaning about 1,200 damage, and meaning that you saying that one shot will take out ironskin is complete and utter bullS#&$, it would take at least 2, three if you used any power strength AT ALL beyond intensify.  Also, bombard shots are very easily avoided if you pay attention, duck behind walls, copter past them, stomp the bombard, charge the bombard, or just flipping kill them.  Oh right, you ran out of ammo on your boltor prime due to spamming, my bad.

 

Most people did not agree.  That's called a bandwagon fallacy.  It'd be more accurate to say that most RHINO MAINS AGREED.  Obviously they want buffs.  No, rhino isn't a pure tank,  No, he's not the main tank.  In the beginning, him and frost were tanks, and mag was a shield tank, and trinity was a heal tank.  Then Saryn came along and she was a health tank, and valkyr came and was a health and shield tank, then ember came and was an overheat (caster) tank, then got nerfed.  Then Zephyr came along and was a bird tank, but buggy.  Then Mirage came along and was a jack of all trades glass-cannon frame, and couldn't find any shadows to hide in, and lost half of her damage buff when she did.  Then Mesa came along and was like Zephyr 2.0, only less bugged and with less CC... ...than Mirage OR Zephyr.  Then loki was a decoy-tank again, because loki master race.

 

Long story short, about 9 of the frames in the game have not been tanks at any point.  That's quite easily less than half.  Given this, you really shouldn't be surprised, that out of the other 12 frames, about 3 can out-tank rhino.  He's old, other frames can now do similar, and yet not better (if you were any good at playing the game) - due to no CC immunity - things.  Get.  Used.  To.  It.

 

The instant you gain damage scaling/buffing abilities is the same instant you can no longer be the tankiest tank, who is probably valkyr atm, or maybe limbo (evade tank? Warp tank {he's not actually there but looks like he is and enemies attack the spot}?)  Limbo has to bring enemies into his realm, at which point he trades away tankiness to them for a knockdown and maybe a selfish damage buff, if he cast it.  Valkyr is only melee, and her buff only works for melee.  Surprise, they both have major handicaps that rhino doesn't.

 

Rhino's iron skin is fine, and if it gets damage reduction, it needs to be capped at 90% max, and lose every single point of absorb, as well as the CC immunity.  It also needs to cost at least 50 energy, and last no longer than 15-20 maxed rank and unmodded.  The reason for the 90% is because the other reductioneers have about half the innate tankiness stats, so 90% for him is the same as 95% for them.  The reason for the loss of cc immunity is because they don't get it either.  The reason for the increased cost is because they also pay it.

really only those? vauban has better cc than rhino, vauban has 3 cc skills, nyx has 2, loki has 2, nova has a better cc with damage bonus and damage on death, even zephyr is better, why? all of these have multiple better ccs and they are recast able at any point in time you want to, you dont have to wait 8 seconds to recast, on zephyr even though there is power in use the skill is not only effective on the mobs within the area upon casting but any mobs that come in. so again rhino is not a cc king, he has an ok cc. so he is lower than these in cc, and he can not tank damage like others even though he is listed as a tank in game, so what is he? in a perfect team role there is no room for an ok frame, you have 4 slots in a team all which can be filled out by specialized frames to do the job better. also if you remove cc immunity then you got to remove link's reflected damage, and any other side effect other skills have, valkyr does not get damage mitigation she gets pure invincibility which is above damage % reduction, also the reason why these frames do not need a bonus effect on their mitigation skill is they are not tanks, why do they even need a damage mitigation skill that surpasses the tank in the first place? and as for your bold it just shows how ignorant you are and how dense your post is, i just stated a fact that if you built your rhino for roar duration which almost everyone suggested to the op, then your is hp will be reduced, and that it can be 1 hit from a bombard, but you go on about me using a boltor prime, lol i dont ever use a boltor p thanks for asking.

[Tostov]

really only those? vauban has better cc than rhino, vauban has 3 cc skills, nyx has 2, loki has 2, nova has a better cc with damage bonus and damage on death, even zephyr is better, why? all of these have multiple better ccs and they are recast able at any point in time you want to, you dont have to wait 8 seconds to recast, on zephyr even though there is power in use the skill is not only effective on the mobs within the area upon casting but any mobs that come in. so again rhino is not a cc king, he has an ok cc. so he is lower than these in cc, and he can not tank damage like others even though he is listed as a tank in game, so what is he? in a perfect team role there is no room for an ok frame, you have 4 slots in a team all which can be filled out by specialized frames to do the job better. also if you remove cc immunity then you got to remove link's reflected damage, and any other side effect other skills have, valkyr does not get damage mitigation she gets pure invincibility which is above damage % reduction, also the reason why these frames do not need a bonus effect on their mitigation skill is they are not tanks, why do they even need a damage mitigation skill that surpasses the tank in the first place? and as for your bold it just shows how ignorant you are and how dense your post is, i just stated a fact that if you built your rhino for roar duration which almost everyone suggested to the op, then your is hp will be reduced, and that it can be 1 hit from a bombard, but you go on about me using a boltor prime, lol i dont ever use a boltor p thanks for asking.

Jeez man, it seems like somehow, rhino doesn't get the best ability, and one to one, he can't beat a given specialized frame in a given category. How weird is that. His stomp isn't as good as other frame's more specialised CC. His roar isn't as strong as a buff as some of the other frame's abilites (some of which are augments, by the way). And Iron skin isn't quite as strong of a tanking ability as hysteria.

It's almost like...

Rhino is a jack of all trades...             ... Yet master of none.

Oh wait. That's exactly what he is.

Also, unless you're uninformed, roar builds build for both duration and power strength. Which means Iron skin is still getting the 2k + additional, recast-able HP.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Tostov

[Ronyn]

The problem is this statement right here in conjunction with what you propose.

DE does not create any ability predicated on the idea that it be just as useful at high level content They base it on Planetary restrictions in non-infinite content.

Within those bounds Rhino would be able to Facetank as OP suggested and that is exactly why DE changed previous IS. Rhino had a win button.

Additionally with the current iteration of enemy AI this entire roar concept could potentially break the AI in inummerable ways. Players could definitely exploit the hell out of this with very little teamwork if any at all. For instance Rhino simply stands in a place unreachable by enemies and roars constantly thus with a tiny bit of work by a nova beforehand Rhino removes the need for players to work at all to defend the pod in Tower defense scenarios. Even worse would be tower survival. In many of it's rooms there are locations players have access to that would allow this tactic to go on indefinitely. Maps on the star chart are riddled by even more locations that frames have access to and enemies do not, which would further compound the issue.

The aggro system asked for could potentially end any difficulty whatsoever no matter the location within the star chart or outside of it infinitely. You can be sure if that is implemented it will break difficulty even more than current ability spam has.

 

The point is that no one should have a kill the whole room button or a button that allows them to shrug off damage infinitely into content.

Infinite scaling abilities are present however they are massively predicated on situations sometimes predicated on very specific enemies.

The proposed changes all of them except mine would provide Rhino scaling infinitely. No matter the faction no matter the area no matter the circumstances Rhino would effectively get god mode.

90% damage mitigation maximum on current IS(mods included) would place him at the top tier if you want a defensive build.

However immunity to damage is unacceptable(as is absorption) and quite frankly due to the ease of abuse aggro draw is as well.

 

1: A frame is suppose to be able to fight effectively in it's role as long as the enemy levels are within reasonable distance of the frame.

A frame trivializing content beneath its level is not a concern. And any changes to any power would have to follow a logical leveling up process.

So when we are looking at how strong rhino would become, are we looking at the appropriate levels when considering balance?

 

2: DE doesn't balance all powers specifically for high level content but they also don't balance all powers to specifically fall off in high level content.

So what we have is a huge inconsistency with what remains functional, what falls off, and what stays mostly the same throughout.

Some of the powers that scale super far or even infinitely aren't really that limited to faction or situation. 

Nyx's Mind control and chaos for example....Loki turning invisible....Limbo turning intangible...Valkyr turning invincible...etc..

If we are going to apply a rule of "no one should scale too far/infinitely" great but we have a LOT of reworks ahead of us.

And on that note...an improved Iron Skin doesn't inherently have to fall into one of those infinite scaling abilities. 

 

3: There are a few different mechanics proposed to improve Rhino, most of them related to iron skin.

You claim that all suggestions other than yours (I forget what yours was) would allow rhino to get too strong.

I think with works in progress it's not that simple

For example:

The frost-style-iron-skin-with-aggro idea's main potential problem is that it might be possible to gain too much HP.

Another idea of the Iron-skin-takes-on-armor-rating-that-can-grow-with-stuff-like-ironclad-charge main potential problem is that it might be possible to gain too much HP. 

Ok so consider put a hard cap on HP gain. Consider time limits. Consider altering what Iron Skin scales off of. Etc .

These ideas are works in progress, they have conditions that can be placed on them for balance as needed.

 

4: If we are going to get rhino to the proper "tank" status we can't sort things out with extreme positions. 

One side wanting iron skin to become an effective tanking tool while neglecting concerns for how it may be abused...

Other side wanting iron skin to not become ab-usable while neglecting for how to make it an effective tanking tool....

Our concern needs to be How to we make iron skin an effective, yet non abuse-able, tanking tool.

If one is not concerned about both they are not approaching this properly.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Ronyn

[Ronyn]

It's almost like...

Rhino is a jack of all trades...             ... Yet master of none.

Oh wait. That's exactly what he is.

Not everyone agrees that is what he is or what he is supposed to be. (he is supposed to be a well rounded tank)

Not everyone agrees with some of the other powers in the game (hysteria should not be invincible) and feel they skew the balance in the wrong way.

[RoninJed]

Face tanking is a thing, though.

 

Just not a Rhino thing anymore.

 

Valkyr, Mirage, and Mesa all face tank better than Rhino.  And Rhino is supposed to be the face tank frame... hence why iron skin used to be complete invulnerability.

 

Just because you don't like to face tank doesn't mean there shouldn't be a frame for people who do.  Heck, there are already several.  Rhino makes the most logical sense to be at the top of the face tanking frames, but he isn't.

 

Have you even READ the codex entry for Rhino Prime?  It goes on and on about how good he's supposed to be at face tanking.  He's totally meant to be the face tank frame.  But he isn't, because people keep complaining about how OP iron skin face tanking used to be, but no one seems to complain at all when face tanking powers are given to Valkyr and Mirage.

exactly! +1

[Tostov]

Not everyone agrees that is what he is or what he is supposed to be. (he is supposed to be a well rounded tank)

Not everyone agrees with some of the other powers in the game (hysteria should not be invincible) and feel they skew the balance in the wrong way.

First up, never stated my opinion on Hystera, just quoted it as an example.

Secondly, yes, exactly, I don't think rhino is a pure tank. I think he is a semi-tank with all rounder capabilities, hence why he isn't super durable like valkyr is. Do I think the other frames are well balanced? Nope, not at all. But Rhino is good where he is. Should he be better at face tanking? Well no, not really, he has CC. Big CC. Big CC that isn't affected by power duration, like every other single CC ability in the game. That's his damage "mitigation effect".

Off Topic:

Also, on the topic of valkyr's hysteria, it should store damage (reduced by a percentage based on power strength) and heals for the duration, then apply the net effect at the end of duration, potentially healing or damaging valkyr depending on how much heal she's had stored compared to damage dealt to her. That's how I think it should work.

[Ronyn]

First up, never stated my opinion on Hystera, just quoted it as an example.

Secondly, yes, exactly, I don't think rhino is a pure tank. I think he is a semi-tank with all rounder capabilities, hence why he isn't super durable like valkyr is. Do I think the other frames are well balanced? Nope, not at all. But Rhino is good where he is. Should he be better at face tanking? Well no, not really, he has CC. Big CC. Big CC that isn't affected by power duration, like every other single CC ability in the game. That's his damage "mitigation effect".

Sorry to retread the same info that I explained earlier in this thread but...

 

I don't know what people mean when they say "Pure tank". A tank isn't just a guy who is super tough.

The tank role is defined by a class who specializes in mitigating damage for himself and his allies.

There are a few different ways to achieve that goal.  

Rhino, like so many tanks in other games initiates an encounter by barreling into the enemy group (Charge) 

Wades through incoming damage and enemy CC while surviving their attention (iron skin)

And keeps enemies reeling so they can't hurt allies but allies can hurt them (stomp)

His roar move is a self and team buff...and that's the only thing that isn't directly a common tank power in other games.

 

Should Rhino be somewhat better at face tanking? Yes because he is a tank according to the official DE information flavor text/video. (seriously, the video directly calls him a tank after using a bunch of words that are associated with tanks.)

Sadly with the way the game changed he has fallen a bit behind in that regard.

 

Now is it OK that the CC time on stomp isn't affected by power duration? You know maybe it's not OK.

Not because of anything other than its sort of unfair that he doesn't have the same limitation on a power that everyone else does. Some people are holding on to that unfair advantage so hard that they are afraid it will be taken away if DE looks at him again. But seriously...why should any frame get a free pass on power duration like that?

 

Pseudo off -topic-

To say "that's why Rhino isn't  super durable like Valkyr is" would be exactly what I'm referring to with how the balance is skewed the wrong way. Valkyr is not described as a tank by DE in her flavor text or video. And she wasn't a tank when she was released except during hysteria mode. She only became a constant tank after a heavy handed buff to her armor early on (200 jumped to 600) and the way the game changed (melee 2.0's lifestrike combined with the rage mod and her base armor+steel fiber adds up to a crazy energy gain to life lost ratio). Valkyr's durability is out of hand now.... and some of her other aspects are below where they should be.  But most of that's for another topic.

 

 

 

Off Topic:

Also, on the topic of valkyr's hysteria, it should store damage (reduced by a percentage based on power strength) and heals for the duration, then apply the net effect at the end of duration, potentially healing or damaging valkyr depending on how much heal she's had stored compared to damage dealt to her. That's how I think it should work.

 

That's an interesting idea.  I'll have to ponder on it a while.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Ronyn

[Haldos]

Cleaned up some antagonistic posts.

I ask that you all remain respectable in this discussion and avoid personal insults.

 

Carry on.

[geninrising]

1: A frame is suppose to be able to fight effectively in it's role as long as the enemy levels are within reasonable distance of the frame.

A frame trivializing content beneath its level is not a concern. And any changes to any power would have to follow a logical leveling up process.

So when we are looking at how strong rhino would become, are we looking at the appropriate levels when considering balance?

 

2: DE doesn't balance all powers specifically for high level content but they also don't balance all powers to specifically fall off in high level content.

So what we have is a huge inconsistency with what remains functional, what falls off, and what stays mostly the same throughout.

Some of the powers that scale super far or even infinitely aren't really that limited to faction or situation. 

Nyx's Mind control and chaos for example....Loki turning invisible....Limbo turning intangible...Valkyr turning invincible...etc..

If we are going to apply a rule of "no one should scale too far/infinitely" great but we have a LOT of reworks ahead of us.

And on that note...an improved Iron Skin doesn't inherently have to fall into one of those infinite scaling abilities. 

 

3: There are a few different mechanics proposed to improve Rhino, most of them related to iron skin.

You claim that all suggestions other than yours (I forget what yours was) would allow rhino to get too strong.

I think with works in progress it's not that simple

For example:

The frost-style-iron-skin-with-aggro idea's main potential problem is that it might be possible to gain too much HP.

Another idea of the Iron-skin-takes-on-armor-rating-that-can-grow-with-stuff-like-ironclad-charge main potential problem is that it might be possible to gain too much HP. 

Ok so consider put a hard cap on HP gain. Consider time limits. Consider altering what Iron Skin scales off of. Etc .

These ideas are works in progress, they have conditions that can be placed on them for balance as needed.

 

 

My idea was the one where IS is granted DR based on Armor.

 

I opposed the Rhino IS like frost globe with AGGRO due to the fact that I already see it being abused horribly, either it's infinite scaling and Rhino is ultimately immune to damage forever due to spam builds that never lack energy to pop it with Iron Shrapnel and recast. Or it's massively abuse-able as Rhino can get to a location where enemies cannot hit him and cast repeatedly every four seconds causing enemies to mill about below him and the whole team has 0 difficulty mutilating them all infinitely because you know Trinity will be there to provide him a constant flow of energy. Or for those that scream about synergy, he could just pop energy restores or his team could below him.(that energy loophole is ridiculous.

 

The only option that has been provided that provided Rhino with a necessary buff for further usability is mine. The rest have all been god mode 2.0 and I must admit that 90% DR on Iron skin is still god mode 2.0 on a spam build. So where we stand in this is right back where we began. More advanced players saying Rhino is fine and players that do not understand as well how to use the tools he has stating that he needs a massive buff.

 

What he needs is more people to see how to actually play him in ways other than press 2 and run around. Repeat steps 1 and 2 as necessary Rhino is played FAR too often to think there is actually any type of real problem with his skills quite frankly. More than 50% of my personal runs in the void contain a Rhino, however it is never an IS rhino.

Edited January 18, 2015 by geninrising

[Tostov]

-snip-

One of the things I feel doesn't really count as evidence is the videos that are released as teasers for frames/gear, at least, not this long after they've been released, since they are never really updated. The rhino one is still pretty spot on though, even if it was referring to a time when iron skin could literally make him invulnerable. Whereas the valkyr one isn't really, since DE pretty much realized that berserker type stuff (high damage, in both directions), doesn't really work well when it comes to melee in warframe. And honestly, it doesn't really state elsewhere that rhino is the tank.

Gonna quickly note, I never watched either of the videos, and Rhino's codex entry suggests that he has a balanced attack/def moveset, with low mobility. I'm not sure he really needs to be "more face tanky" either, precisely because his powerset isn't centered around face tanking, and only one frame does that better than him without lifesteal weapons anyway (saryn's regen augment is nice, but doesn't happen nearly fast enough for her to face tank). 

The exceptions to this are Trinity ,Mesa and Mirage, all of whom have quite situation based damage resistance (Nearby enemies ,Ranged and Placement based respectively). Of these, trinity doesn't have any good CC or damage. Mesa doesn't have any CC that doesn't impact her negatively (Cause quite frankly, disarming enemies means they will literally run up and bypass shatter shield). Mirage loses her damage potential and mobility while in the shadows required give her damage resist, bar one tileset (hey derelicts). Should they not be able to reach 95% damage resistance? Yeah, probably. But that's quite the seperate issue honestly, and isn't related to rhino's facetank.

And look, undoubtedly, you've tried various builds on rhino, so I'm sort of surprised that you're unsatisfied with his face tank. After all, well modded, nothing short of level 60 bombards can bother scratching his iron skin without sustained fire, something that you really shouldn't let happen, because he does have CC skills after all. And with natural talent you can look at iron skin being down for a maximum of around 0.5~2 seconds at any given time. If you pop iron shrapnel on him, now you've got a CC while you spend half a second reapplying the iron skin.

An Ironic thing about rhino stomp though. Since it can't be recast while there's an instance out, causing it to be affected by power duration, combined with one of the two ways rhino is usually built (efficiency strength focus), means that it actually becomes more effective at its job as both a nuke and general purpose CC on one build type, and makes it somewhat more situational but more effective on the other type.

On a final note, I'm not really sure what you'd do with the abillity, but I'd like to say that it should scale with rhino's armor,  Gives it an effective HP buff of around 50~120% depending on how you've modded rhino, which is pretty gigantic. (you'll note that about twenty pages back, when I last posted here, that's what I felt the ability should do, though it got shot down for not just giving him damage resist), Though, given current testing, I'm a little worried that might be too much given his Iron charge augment, but it might be alright too.

Cause at the moment, it does face tank exceptionally well, in almost all circumstances, to a degree I'd argue is better than any substitute other than hysteria. And I like the way iron skin works at the moment. I don't like pure damage resist abilities, precisely because I'm still taking damage, something that I don't like one bit. Iron skin differing from these is what I like about it, it's like a hybrid heal/tanking skill.

[Horonelius]

In my opinion Iron Skin needs to be given the same kind of 4 second immortality that Snowglobe has when first activated. That would help prevent it from getting smashed down instantly.

For a frame that's supposed to be the tank of the group, the skinny frames should not be outperforming it the way they are.

 

And maybe Iron Skin having its own health is itself a problem. Perhaps Iron skin should boost Rhino's Armor for its duration. As for balancing, everyone remember in Dark Souls how activating the Iron Skin pyromancy skill meant you couldn't move for S#&$? Maybe something similar could be done here: Turn Rhino into a lumbering bullet magnet with high armor. Maybe even make it draw the attention of nearby enemies.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Horonelius

[Tostov]

In my opinion Iron Skin needs to be given the same kind of 4 second immortality that Snowglobe has when first activated. That would help prevent it from getting smashed down instantly.

For a frame that's supposed to be the tank of the group, the skinny frames should not be outperforming it the way they are.

 

And maybe Iron Skin having its own health is itself a problem. Perhaps Iron skin should boost Rhino's Armor for its duration. As for balancing, everyone remember in Dark Souls how activating the Iron Skin pyromancy skill meant you couldn't move for S#&$? Maybe something similar could be done here: Turn Rhino into a lumbering bullet magnet with high armor. Maybe even make it draw the attention of nearby enemies.

See, I'm not really sure whether iron skin is so weak as to warrant needing invulnerability time like snowglobe. I'll note, that I'll rescind this comment if frost's augment makes his bubble follow him, but I digress, the only times Iron skin goes pop instantly is when you are either modded poorly for iron skin tanking, or are fighting enemies which the game isn't really balanced around.

And tell me, the skinny frames you mention are Mesa/Mirage yes?

Anyway, I don't really like the idea of making it just "boost armor", since that makes it a clone of valkyr's 2. And I don't like damage resist skills, as I stated earlier (But that's more opinion based.)

Also. If you want flat armor buff, try his augment, "Ironclad Charge". Here's a picture, for reference/

[lZerul]

My question is, does Ironclad Charge effect Iron Skin at all? Iron Skin has its own armor, but it isn't affected by anything so far, thus the reason it gets stripped off so easily.

 

If it used Rhino's armor, or scaled at all it would be a different story entirely.

Edited January 18, 2015 by lZerul

[Tostov]

My question is, does Ironclad Charge effect Iron Skin at all? Iron Skin has its own armor, but it isn't affected by anything so far, thus the reason it gets stripped off so easily.

 

If it used Rhino's armor, or scaled at all it would be a different story entirely.

Iron skin does not have any armor from what I understand. It does not scale of rhino's base armor, nor any other armor of rhino's.

It just has the ferrite armor damage resistance type, which means it takes reduced/increased damage based on the element of the source of the damage. (less from blast and slash, more from toxic (infested), puncture (some of corpus) and corrosive (Scary toxic ancient death breath))

As I state in my wall of text post earlier, making it scale with rhino's actual armor would easily make it way, way stronger, and if you wanted to make rhino more tanky, that's how you'd do it.

Edit:

 

-snip-

Please stop math-ing wrong. Or at least read my reply.

You don't multiply straight by the 738%, you divide that value by 100 first, because it's a percentile value.

So you're looking at 7.38 times as much armor (8.38 if you count his base armor too). Which is still freaking gigantic, but isn't literally game breaking levels.

 

Edited January 18, 2015 by Tostov

[geninrising]

See, I'm not really sure whether iron skin is so weak as to warrant needing invulnerability time like snowglobe. I'll note, that I'll rescind this comment if frost's augment makes his bubble follow him, but I digress, the only times Iron skin goes pop instantly is when you are either modded poorly for iron skin tanking, or are fighting enemies which the game isn't really balanced around.

And tell me, the skinny frames you mention are Mesa/Mirage yes?

Anyway, I don't really like the idea of making it just "boost armor", since that makes it a clone of valkyr's 2. And I don't like damage resist skills, as I stated earlier (But that's more opinion based.)

Also. If you want flat armor buff, try his augment, "Ironclad Charge". Here's a picture, for reference/

Yeah I commented on this previously in another thread and I still say that it looks broken

The armor that I calculated off of that is insane.

Originally in text he states that this occurrence pictured is not the nominal affect due to it being difficult to set this up I'll give the numbers he quoted as normal buff and maximum buff pictured to give an idea of Rhino's god tank capability.

 

Normally he said 440%to like 560% or somewhere near that so I'll use his minimum statement.

 

apparently my calculations were off as I have been corrected by Tostov in another post will update here if he responds.

Edited January 18, 2015 by geninrising

[geninrising]

Yeah I commented on this previously in another thread and I still say that it looks broken

The armor that I calculated off of that is insane.

Originally in text he states that this occurrence pictured is not the nominal affect due to it being difficult to set this up I'll give the numbers he quoted as normal buff and maximum buff pictured to give an idea of Rhino's god tank capability.

 

Normally he said 440%to like 560% or somewhere near that so I'll use his minimum statement.

 

calculations wre wrong due to convoluted math system.

Essentially this is what would make a good Rhino tank and not IS, IS would be used to ignore various CC and procs in times of emergency.

I will definitely be testing this heavily.

 

In the mean time Tostov can you tell if it caps or not? For example did you attempt to get damaged after the charge to see if you were even really hurt at all? Because as far as I can tell that should be near invulnerability with that much armor

 

This skill looks like it could easily make Rhino the ultimate melee frame and if combined with a  rage make a permanently immortal Rhino.

Edited January 18, 2015 by geninrising

[Ronyn]

One of the things I feel doesn't really count as evidence is the videos that are released as teasers for frames/gear, at least, not this long after they've been released, since they are never really updated. 

I wholeheartedly disagree. Moreover, I think this is where a lot of the wrong points of view stem from on he boards.

Developers create these class spotlights with the purpose of explaining their intended design and setting expectations.

By all rights and purposes the players SHOULD be able to look to these for understanding that baseline...

While developers SHOULD be going back to look at these things to remind them of why they did what they did.

Do changes happen? Sure. Do things sometimes get pretty far from initial intent? Sure.

That is where it is the developer's responsibility to either re-make the video or rework the frame to match.

Any huge discrepancy between explanation and function should not be left to sit for long. 

Some developers do a much better job at this than others. 

 

 

The rhino one is still pretty spot on though, even if it was referring to a time when iron skin could literally make him invulnerable. 

And honestly, it doesn't really state elsewhere that rhino is the tank.

Right. That's the thing. I don't think his description is THAT far off...we just need to get a few things in line with the whole "Tank" focus.

 

But I find hard to discuss when so many folks are trying to discount him even being a tank, or saying the videos don't matter at all.

Really I don't know how many places a frames role has to be stated for it to be accepted.

To be clear though-There are exactly two videos that call their frame a tank-Rhino and Frost. 

They do so in different ways of course and that is kind of the point.

So I look to make sure those two are the best at that role.

 

Whereas the valkyr one isn't really, since DE pretty much realized that berserker type stuff (high damage, in both directions), doesn't really work well when it comes to melee in warframe.

I disagree. I feel like Valkyr's description is mostly fine and reasonable, as I think it makes enough reference to her having enough resilience to handle melee mode. I just think her tuning went wonky at some point when certain major updates compiled together.

 

 

 I'm not sure he really needs to be "more face tanky" either, precisely because his powerset isn't centered around face tanking,

I'd say it is....Other than spamming stomp. Which I consider the kind of "press 4 to win" problem that needs to be tone down in this game. 

 

undoubtedly, you've tried various builds on rhino, so I'm sort of surprised that you're unsatisfied with his face tank. 

Very good thing to bring up!

My primary issue with Rhino's ability to face tank is in how it how it works...so to speak.

Certainly, with the right build Rhino can absorb tons of direct damage.

Unfortunately..to build that way relies on things I have a problem with. 

Iron Skin scales with power strength so Rhino ends up being modded like a caster, often with duration reduction mods that neuter charge, mean roar will need to be spammed, and only leave stomp alone because it's strangely exempt from duration when it really shouldn't be.....while often granting rhino too good of energy efficiency so he can spam his 4 more than he should be able to. (press 4 to win is a bad mechanic)

Moreover, Iron Skin fails in some of it's "tank" duties because it does not really help anyone but Rhino himself.

Where giving it a better aggro grab mechanic (and make sure it can survive it) would allow him to more effectively mitigate damage for others.

 

I'd prefer a rework to Rhino (mostly iron skin) that focuses on bringing him more solidly into the tank zone all around.

In addition to altering some of Iron skins mechanics to more effectively help protect more than just himslef....

Change what iron Skin scales off of to defensive stats like health, shields and armor so building tanky actually creates tanky.

With that change DE could drop the free pass for stomps duration (likely capping it somewhere though) as people could slot duration mods which would also improve the range of charge and the time of of roar.

Give rhino every reason to build like a warrior type if they want to....not a spam caster unless they want to. 

 

 

My idea was the one where IS is granted DR based on Armor.

Ah..so was one of mine. 

 

I opposed the Rhino IS like frost globe with AGGRO due to the fact that I already see it being abused horribly, either it's infinite scaling and Rhino is ultimately immune to damage forever due to spam builds that never lack energy to pop it with Iron Shrapnel and recast. 

Yeah iron shrapnel has certainly altered the potential of this idea. It was first brought up before there was such a mod....

 

Or it's massively abuse-able as Rhino can get to a location where enemies cannot hit him and cast repeatedly every four seconds causing enemies to mill about below him and the whole team has 0 difficulty mutilating them all

I don't like the idea of having to give up on aggro completely. It seems potentially very important.

Couldn't we address that with some sort of range limitation and even a diminishing return effect on enemies it has recently been cast on..

or even shift that the aggro is not an automatic sphere effect but just an addition to his attacks while iron skin is active...

something like that. 

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The infinite energy thing is kind of its own rampant problem all across the board.

That needs to be looked at at the source...cause right now most frames can cheeze through content due to infinite energy.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Ronyn

[sanj66]

Jeez man, it seems like somehow, rhino doesn't get the best ability, and one to one, he can't beat a given specialized frame in a given category. How weird is that. His stomp isn't as good as other frame's more specialised CC. His roar isn't as strong as a buff as some of the other frame's abilites (some of which are augments, by the way). And Iron skin isn't quite as strong of a tanking ability as hysteria.

It's almost like...

Rhino is a jack of all trades...             ... Yet master of none.

Oh wait. That's exactly what he is.

Also, unless you're uninformed, roar builds build for both duration and power strength. Which means Iron skin is still getting the 2k + additional, recast-able HP.

you havent read the topic posts it seems, this is the issue, by his intro video and codex entry he is not meant to be a jack of all trades, he is meant to be a tank yet non tank frames out tank him, which is the issue we were discussing before this guy came and his entire post on the 3-4 occasions he did post was basically, make huge and incorrect inferences on other players and then add, i can so you are bad. yes roar scales with power str, but its highly unlikely you are going to go full power str, as that would be 3 out of 8 slots, then you would need efficiency 2 more, and then duration leaving your rhino out of iron skin basically naked, that was the point i was making, he isnt like loki, vauban or nova even that can balance out a corrupted build and have every skill other than raw damage fall off.

[Tostov]

 

-snip-

See, I see iron skin as a purely selfish survival skill, and I'm fine with that. I mean, making it draw aggro wouldn't really affect you if you were playing solo anyway, since you're the primary target of your enemies 99% of the time anyway. I view it's "teammate helping ability" to lie more in the fact that rhino can rez people whom are downed with negligible penalty anyway, though I could be fine with the aggro effect returning if it does end up stronger. With iron shrapnel, it becomes an incredibly strong CC too, even if the radius isn't as good as other CC, and it's recastable for pretty low cost.

Thing is, I find rhino balanced because, while he can't get the maximum out of all of his abilites at once, he can spec so he gets a huge effect out of two of them, or an average build with all of them being well balanced.

Regardless. I view rhino as a "caster type" tank at the moment, more in line with limbo. This is a view point that is pretty much polar opposite to yours. But, that being said:

You envision Iron skin working like this yeah?

Rhino hardens his skin to create a reinforcing buffer with 25% / 50% / 75% / 100% of his total HP pool in Ferrite-Armor Hitpoints. While iron skin is active, Rhino is immune to most CC and Proc Debuffs.

-Power strength affects the percentage of health used to create iron skin's HP pool

-Iron Skin is affected by Rhino's armor, therefore equipping steel fibre or warframe buffs that increase armor will increase the iron skin's durabillity.

-Iron skin's HP pool is affected by rhino's total HP pool at the time of casting, so using mods like vitality or vigor, or casting it while under the effect of HP increasing syndicate auras will increase the total HP pool.

Sort of thing, yes?

Cause I can dig that

Edit:

 

you havent read the topic posts it seems, this is the issue, by his intro video and codex entry he is not meant to be a jack of all trades, he is meant to be a tank yet non tank frames out tank him, which is the issue we were discussing before this guy came and his entire post on the 3-4 occasions he did post was basically, make huge and incorrect inferences on other players and then add, i can so you are bad. yes roar scales with power str, but its highly unlikely you are going to go full power str, as that would be 3 out of 8 slots, then you would need efficiency 2 more, and then duration leaving your rhino out of iron skin basically naked, that was the point i was making, he isnt like loki, vauban or nova even that can balance out a corrupted build and have every skill other than raw damage fall off.

 

I have. Tanking is different to damage avoidance. Mesa and Mirage can tank unreasonably well (if situationally), I'll give you that. But yes. I do run rhino with three power strength mods (well actually, usually it's two, I don't like blind rage that much), and two efficiency mods. Slap on Natural talent, and iron skin takes no time at all to reapply. Slap on Iron shrapnel, and I've got a radial CC when I want to re-apply iron skin (not that I can't just stomp either).

That's six mods. Leaves me with two more (one if I'm using blind rage) with which I can mod some durability into the frame. Which is either: Maxed Redirection and Vigor for shields, Maxed Vitality and Steel Fiber for HP, or some mix of the two (if it's blind rage build (which means I'm running with a group), I'll almost always choose just redirection for the last slot.)

I mean, I can go full squishy, and instead get some duration for roar/charge if I really want, but that's starting to play risky, for sure.

He doesn't really need shield regen mods, since he's got iron skin, which covers the shield regen time nicely.

Edit 2: Anyway, I'm heading to sleep, I'll try to reply to comments once I wake up, but don't expect a response for about a few hours.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Tostov

[Holeypaladin]

Using HP pool for the artificial iron skin HP?  Interesting idea, but for now... that would be a nerf.

 

Because with a maxed Vitality Rhino only has 740 HP.  That's significantly weaker than the 1200 from iron skin.  If he had 150 base HP like Ash, it'd be a different story, but for now it's a pretty heavy nerf.

 

Instead of using his health pool, I'd say to use like 200% of his health pool, scaling with power strength, and affected by armor.  That would mean most noob Rhino frames wouldn't have the 1200 artificial health to trivialize low-level content, and vitality/steel fiber are essential mods for Rhino where most frames can ignore them.

 

For making him require BOTH of these mods to make iron skin effective, having it use twice his health pool is the least he can ask for.  That, and buffing his armor to 300.

[geninrising]

I don't like the idea of having to give up on aggro completely. It seems potentially very important.

Couldn't we address that with some sort of range limitation and even a diminishing return effect on enemies it has recently been cast on..

or even shift that the aggro is not an automatic sphere effect but just an addition to his attacks while iron skin is active...

something like that. 

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The infinite energy thing is kind of its own rampant problem all across the board.

That needs to be looked at at the source...cause right now most frames can cheeze through content due to infinite energy.

 

Yes I could absolutely live with giving rhino some DR via armor on IS(not full I think because with the Iron clad Charge thing he could reach near 90% dr or more which as I discussed before could lead to god tank rhino) but some number could work theoretically.

 

On the subject of aggro draw this too could work if it was based solely on his weapon attacks otherwise if it was damage dealt there might be a means to exploit via use of stomp(although that's a long shot with how the damage is delivered and then the cc occurs) so it may cause aggro during the CC only which would work itself out essentially. The reason I could see this working is that Rhino would have to be a helluva marksman+time management guru to ensure the majority of enemies aggro'd on to him IF he were in an unreachable location thus pretty much negating the possibility of an exploit.

 

As far as the energy thing IDK what DE is thinking when they espouse an energy loophole publicly and then compound the issue further by releasing primed variants that contribute further to said infinite energy conundrum.

[sanj66]

See, I see iron skin as a purely selfish survival skill, and I'm fine with that. I mean, making it draw aggro wouldn't really affect you if you were playing solo anyway, since you're the primary target of your enemies 99% of the time anyway. I view it's "teammate helping ability" to lie more in the fact that rhino can rez people whom are downed with negligible penalty anyway, though I could be fine with the aggro effect returning if it does end up stronger. With iron shrapnel, it becomes an incredibly strong CC too, even if the radius isn't as good as other CC, and it's recastable for pretty low cost.

Thing is, I find rhino balanced because, while he can't get the maximum out of all of his abilites at once, he can spec so he gets a huge effect out of two of them, or an average build with all of them being well balanced.

Regardless. I view rhino as a "caster type" tank at the moment, more in line with limbo. This is a view point that is pretty much polar opposite to yours. But, that being said:

You envision Iron skin working like this yeah?

Rhino hardens his skin to create a reinforcing buffer with 25% / 50% / 75% / 100% of his total HP pool in Ferrite-Armor Hitpoints. While iron skin is active, Rhino is immune to most CC and Proc Debuffs.

-Power strength affects the percentage of health used to create iron skin's HP pool

-Iron Skin is affected by Rhino's armor, therefore equipping steel fibre or warframe buffs that increase armor will increase the iron skin's durabillity.

-Iron skin's HP pool is affected by rhino's total HP pool at the time of casting, so using mods like vitality or vigor, or casting it while under the effect of HP increasing syndicate auras will increase the total HP pool.

Sort of thing, yes?

Cause I can dig that

Edit:

 

 

I have. Tanking is different to damage avoidance. Mesa and Mirage can tank unreasonably well (if situationally), I'll give you that. But yes. I do run rhino with three power strength mods (well actually, usually it's two, I don't like blind rage that much), and two efficiency mods. Slap on Natural talent, and iron skin takes no time at all to reapply. Slap on Iron shrapnel, and I've got a radial CC when I want to re-apply iron skin (not that I can't just stomp either).

That's six mods. Leaves me with two more (one if I'm using blind rage) with which I can mod some durability into the frame. Which is either: Maxed Redirection and Vigor for shields, Maxed Vitality and Steel Fiber for HP, or some mix of the two (if it's blind rage build (which means I'm running with a group), I'll almost always choose just redirection for the last slot.)

I mean, I can go full squishy, and instead get some duration for roar/charge if I really want, but that's starting to play risky, for sure.

He doesn't really need shield regen mods, since he's got iron skin, which covers the shield regen time nicely.

Edit 2: Anyway, I'm heading to sleep, I'll try to reply to comments once I wake up, but don't expect a response for about a few hours.

i dont even use TF, but thats just me, i run max efficiency and part duration back for roar,i dont use NT as i monitor my gauge and i just slingshot off running and cast as i hit the ground, using my mobility and saving a slot. but the reason i pointed this out is the build suggested to the op would land him in that problem, you see its easy for people to say, run full str mods and then you got roar and stomp, but the problem is in actuality there is a problem because of the amount of slots you are limited to, basically you cant have you cake and eat it too, if he goes as was suggested and go full str and then try to build back duration on roar, his survivability would generally be around the same, you just shifted the problem from shields+hp/armor, to a flat ferrite armor hp, that was the point in relation to the post i quoted.