Bring Back Iron Skin Face Tanking

[geninrising]

snip

Honestly I'm unsure what would be better at this point as I feel that the IS EHP version we have been theorizing is a useful version and would serve the purposes but I again look at Iron Shrapnel and become unsure.

 

Of course the same goes for the flat % drain version. Both suffer from an implemented circumstance due to the inclusion of Iron Shrapnel and the godmode loop. Hence why I offered the Iron Bulwark Idea as a way to shift power rather than replenish it in order to facilitate a change to IS without incurring godmode. I think it might work if we can figure our a way to tune it to prevent back to back Rhino's or corner camping Rhinos from utilizing said godmode. 

[Ronyn]

Honestly I'm unsure what would be better at this point as I feel that the IS EHP version we have been theorizing is a useful version and would serve the purposes but I again look at Iron Shrapnel and become unsure.

 

Of course the same goes for the flat % drain version. Both suffer from an implemented circumstance due to the inclusion of Iron Shrapnel and the godmode loop. Hence why I offered the Iron Bulwark Idea as a way to shift power rather than replenish it in order to facilitate a change to IS without incurring godmode. I think it might work if we can figure our a way to tune it to prevent back to back Rhino's or corner camping Rhinos from utilizing said godmode. 

Well man I'll be real with you. The iron Bullwark idea is conceptually sound. A directional shield is great because it offers inherent counter play and skill requirements. If they put that augment in the game I'll be grabbing it in a heart beat. Unfortunately that doesn't solve our initial dilemma with iron skin because I don't really DE going so far as to rip out the basic of iron skin as a total body cover and replacing it with a directional shield.

I mean sure I suppose anything is possible but I think the best bet is to say "yes on iron bulwark augment, now back to fixing regular iron skin."

 

Unfortunately regular iron skin has some issues. It is so hard to balance because of what it is.

Full born immunity to just about everything, from any angle, as long as its up.

There is no real counter play, it's just keep hitting him until it breaks. So whichever version we go with has that problem to overcome.

 

The main reason I like the EHP version we came to is because of how it requires focused builds and rewards the player for that.

I am fine with the DR version too because I could see that working though I don't see it solving the level gap issue.

Then again I think wanting powers that bridge the gap is asking to much anyway...

 

Iron Shrapnel is certainly a game changer all around and all this free energy we get these days makes it too easy to spam like everything else.

Though at least with the version where a heavy defense mod focus is required for a good iron skin its much harder to fit spam casting mods in the set. For whatever that is worth.

[Holeypaladin]

Most people don't even build for shields and health anymore, much less armor.

 

They might use a redirection, OR a vitality mod.  You might see a valkyr or two with vitality AND steel fiber.

 

Practically no one uses redirection AND vitality for high level content.  They focus on power builds instead.

 

For iron skin to require redirection AND vitality AND steel fiber AND vigor AND ironclad charge just to obtain maximum EHP... is sacrificing a LOT of other mods.  To add shrapnel onto that is sacrificing yet another mod.

 

There are a TON of sacrifices that must be made in order to maximize Ronyn's proposed revamp to iron skin's EHP.  It would really require an entire build focused around a single ability to produce some of the "overpowered" results, which essentially involved not using the rest of his kit.

 

If someone is willing to sacrifice that much just to have a powerful iron skin... why not let them?

[geninrising]

Most people don't even build for shields and health anymore, much less armor.

 

They might use a redirection, OR a vitality mod.  You might see a valkyr or two with vitality AND steel fiber.

 

Practically no one uses redirection AND vitality for high level content.  They focus on power builds instead.

 

For iron skin to require redirection AND vitality AND steel fiber AND vigor AND ironclad charge just to obtain maximum EHP... is sacrificing a LOT of other mods.  To add shrapnel onto that is sacrificing yet another mod.

 

There are a TON of sacrifices that must be made in order to maximize Ronyn's proposed revamp to iron skin's EHP.  It would really require an entire build focused around a single ability to produce some of the "overpowered" results, which essentially involved not using the rest of his kit.

 

If someone is willing to sacrifice that much just to have a powerful iron skin... why not let them?

Wow... I have to agree... partially...wait did I say that? Oh hell it has begun. Truthfully though in order to create a full IS it would require 4 mods maxed. Which would still allow for the Iron Shrapnel, Fleeting Expertise, and Streamline which is IMO the problem.

 

Infinite Iron Skin is a HORRIBLE thing even if you have to have 7 mods to do it. If we further add Ironclad charge to that it becomes even stronger although difficult to utilize due to lack of duration for Charge. However with a simple change of streamline to Primed continuity the negative aspect can be completely negated allowing Ironclad Charge to operate with great effectiveness. So we are at the crossroads of whether we think supporting this idea of an infinite IS into play is good or bad and I see it as bad.

 

Well man I'll be real with you. The iron Bullwark idea is conceptually sound. A directional shield is great because it offers inherent counter play and skill requirements. If they put that augment in the game I'll be grabbing it in a heart beat. Unfortunately that doesn't solve our initial dilemma with iron skin because I don't really DE going so far as to rip out the basic of iron skin as a total body cover and replacing it with a directional shield.

I mean sure I suppose anything is possible but I think the best bet is to say "yes on iron bulwark augment, now back to fixing regular iron skin."

 

Unfortunately regular iron skin has some issues. It is so hard to balance because of what it is.

Full born immunity to just about everything, from any angle, as long as its up.

There is no real counter play, it's just keep hitting him until it breaks. So whichever version we go with has that problem to overcome.

 

The main reason I like the EHP version we came to is because of how it requires focused builds and rewards the player for that.

I am fine with the DR version too because I could see that working though I don't see it solving the level gap issue.

Then again I think wanting powers that bridge the gap is asking to much anyway...

 

Iron Shrapnel is certainly a game changer all around and all this free energy we get these days makes it too easy to spam like everything else.

Though at least with the version where a heavy defense mod focus is required for a good iron skin its much harder to fit spam casting mods in the set. For whatever that is worth.

Yeah the definite Crux of the situation at this point is Iron Shrapnel combined with a full spam setup. I am at a loss as to how to alleviate this unless it is changed into something else to ensure the prospect of immortal Rhino is erased, but then we look at the spam build additions to IS and the waters become even more murky. 

 

Wait...Why not make IS a toggle like Banshees ult or Nyx's? That could actually solve the infinite IS thing by making IS drain energy instead of a single cast kind of thing.

 

This would prevent Rhino from being able to restore energy until IS is deactivated. We can allow full efficiency builds to utilize it without fear of godmode indefinitely. This way if a player wants to maintain immortal Rhino for an entire mission it will require they expend energy restores.

 

In addition we can allow Rhino players full bullet invulnerability during use without making it broken for low level players due to energy constraints.

Additionally players will learn energy management early and have it become the skill component for IS use.

 

The numbers for energy drain would need tweaking but I can fully see this working as it would be massively costly to maintain IS constantly without regard. Also I would lock Rhino out of picking up energy orbs to ensure he MUST deactivate it in order to recharge his energy.

Edited January 30, 2015 by geninrising

[LazyKnight]

Unfortunately regular iron skin has some issues. It is so hard to balance because of what it is.

Full born immunity to just about everything, from any angle, as long as its up.

There is no real counter play, it's just keep hitting him until it breaks. So whichever version we go with has that problem to overcome.

I do not know if you have played, dragon age inquisition. The knight-enchanter has a barrier system (decaying ehp that is regenerated on doing damage)  that at least requires doing something while tanking to regenerate the barrier. It's not an 'i win button', even if it does have a game-play problems of being broken overpower if T3 gear is used.

 

Bioware's barrier and guard system is not perfect, but it does require active participation. It's something that could be looked at if you're trying to balance an ehp skill.

Edited January 29, 2015 by LazyKnight

[Holeypaladin]

The infinite energy exploit is just that: An exploit which doesn't really belong in the game.  Until it is fixed, we'll have to ignore the fact that EVERY POWER IN THE GAME is currently OP because it's too easy to spam them all.

 

We should instead build Iron Skin off the basis that the infinite energy problem will be solved at some point.  Abilities in general are built around the premise that energy is not unlimited, so we need to build iron skin off of that premise as well.

 

The original iron skin was based off the premise that it was in fact impossible to obtain 50 energy over a 15 second period in combat.  It was meant as a panic button, not as something that can be up at all times.  I believe that iron skin should still be a panic button option for when you're taking heavy fire... able to withstand 15 seconds of "normal" combat or enough "intense" combat to at least revive a fallen teammate.

 

How much damage you take in 15 seconds varies of course according to skill level.  It's unreasonable to expect Rhino players to stand still and just take damage without reacting, but it's also unreasonable to expect them to evade everything, especially when they're pulling aggro from everything in the room.  So we need iron skin to last around 15 seconds in the more difficult missions, or at least the five seconds of standing still while reviving your fallen ally.

[Ronyn]

 

Wow... I have to agree... partially...wait did I say that? Oh hell it has begun. Truthfully though in order to create a full IS it would require 4 mods maxed. Which would still allow for the Iron Shrapnel, Fleeting Expertise, and Streamline which is IMO the problem.

 

Infinite Iron Skin is a HORRIBLE thing even if you have to have 7 mods to do it. If we further add Ironclad charge to that it becomes even stronger although difficult to utilize due to lack of duration for Charge. However with a simple change of streamline to Primed continuity the negative aspect can be completely negated allowing Ironclad Charge to operate with great effectiveness. So we are at the crossroads of whether we think supporting this idea of an infinite IS into play is good or bad and I see it as bad.

Infinite iron skin is indeed Horrible..but so is infinite Molecular Prime....tons of bastilles all over the map...perma invisibility & Disarm...constant bladestorm...etc. The infinite energy problem is the infinite energy problem game wide. In my opinion the best thing we can do for each power is to rework/tune it to be solid and as skill based as possible then look to the energy problem in some other ways.

 

 

Wait...Why not make IS a toggle like Banshees ult or Nyx's? That could actually solve the infinite IS thing by making IS drain energy instead of a single cast kind of thing.

This would prevent Rhino from being able to restore energy until IS is deactivated. We can allow full efficiency builds to utilize it without fear of godmode indefinitely. This way if a player wants to maintain immortal Rhino for an entire mission it will require they expend energy restores.

In addition we can allow Rhino players full bullet invulnerability during use without making it broken for low level players due to energy constraints.

Additionally players will learn energy management early and have it become the skill component for IS use.

The numbers for energy drain would need tweaking but I can fully see this working as it would be massively costly to maintain IS constantly without regard. Also I would lock Rhino out of picking up energy orbs to ensure he MUST deactivate it in order to recharge his energy.

This could achieve the specific desired effect of stopping infinite iron skin...

but it also puts Rhino at a larger disadvantage to laying the tank role than other frames have at playing there role.

If we are going to go with something like this it would need to be a part of an overall redesign for several of the powers in the game.

I am no entirely opposed to it but I am very hesitant. I'd really like to try to approach the energy issue from a different angle, something that isnt necessarily at the individual frame power layer. Issue for another thread of course.

 

 

I do not know if you have played, dragon age inquisition. The knight-enchanter has a barrier system (decaying ehp that is regenerated on doing damage)  that at least requires doing something while tanking to regenerate the barrier. It's not an 'i win button', even if it does have a game-play problems of being broken overpower if T3 gear is used.

 

Bioware's barrier and guard system is not perfect, but it does require active participation. It's something that could be looked at if you're trying to balance an ehp skill.

Right on. This thought process of" at least having to do something" is exactly where the gain DR per enemy aggro'ed came from.

I think it's the right direction it just needs to be sorted out all the way.

 

 

The infinite energy exploit is just that: An exploit which doesn't really belong in the game.  Until it is fixed, we'll have to ignore the fact that EVERY POWER IN THE GAME is currently OP because it's too easy to spam them all.

 

We should instead build Iron Skin off the basis that the infinite energy problem will be solved at some point.  Abilities in general are built around the premise that energy is not unlimited, so we need to build iron skin off of that premise as well.

Exactly.

[LazyKnight]

Right on. This thought process of" at least having to do something" 

 

One idea (and not necessarily a good one), is something like an augment mod that changes 'Stomp' from a damage+stun skill to that of a Iron-skin's health+stun (does no damage, but uses the damage values towards iron-skin's replenishment). This type of a change could also be a means to overcharge the current iron skin. But that is something that would be hard to balance, without making it OP.

 

Having stomp's damage converted to Iron-skin health would be: 800 health min/1832 max health per NPC hit. A cap can be established wherever DE thinks it is balanced, example such as 2-3x overcharged. A bonus could be tied to a negative, and it could be that the bonus health deteriorate by 5%(?) per second, or something similar.

 

This is an idea that would mess-up balance with Iron shrapnel, but that could easily be fixed by capping it and not counting overcharged Iron-skin's bonus.

 

Edit: My idea is bad, it's just an idea to get more than one key pressed.

 

 exactly where the gain DR per enemy aggro'ed came from.

I am not against this idea, the thing that makes that problematic (at least from my perspective), is when NPC do concentrated fire on a player it can be an extreme amount of incoming damage, even at level 30. This is something that would be hard to balances if it did not also scale with NPC's level up to a cap.

 

Also, this idea of connecting to argo generation needs to have a reset argo function when the Iron-skin fails. Otherwise it will be a suicide on demand.

Edited January 30, 2015 by LazyKnight

[Mak_Gohae]

Man, you guys are reeeeally putting a lot of ..... effort on this.

You guys better ask for a new actual tank frame than a total rework for this frame that's already too goofy.

[geninrising]

Man, you guys are reeeeally putting a lot of ..... effort on this.

You guys better ask for a new actual tank frame than a total rework for this frame that's already too goofy.

The entire point to this thread is the fact that Rhino has been kind of left to Rot. I'm pretty sure DE has not verified his usage numbers amongst NON new players in quite awhile. New players get him then spam the crap out of him...then they pretty much disregard his existence.

 

I think that DE should pay close attention to frames that get no play time and steadily try to bring them on par with the most played frames. Once we finally get everyone  to a good place WITH THE PLAYERS(Not you [DE]Scott or Grineer whatever the heck your name is), then we can rest for a bit on these types of threads.

[(PSN)theelix]

I've pretty much abandoned Rhino in favor of Mirage lately.  She's just so much better in every way, that Rhino doesn't serve much purpose anymore.  He's only mediocre now.  His main face tanking power, iron skin, is so weak compared to damage reduction powers like shatter shield and eclipse that it's not practical for the high end content I'm playing lately.

 

Iron skin face tanking needs to come back.  I miss the days when Rhino could face tank with the best of them, rather than being a roar-stomp bot like he is now.  Roar-stomp is good, sure, but I like to face tank, and can't do it as Rhino anymore.

 

How to do this?  A simple change to iron skin can do it.  Since everyone is against bringing back invulnerability (even though loki's invisibility is exactly that), you can just make it something like 75% damage reduction (scaling with power strength) for 20 seconds (scaling with power duration), plus immunity to crowd control affects, for an energy cost of 25.

 

This would bring iron skin in line with eclipse, but remove the massive damage increase and instead be a full time defensive buff.  The stats I listed are quite similar to the duration and damage reduction of eclipse when mirage is in the shade.

 

One important thing to keep in mind: The goal of this discussion is NOT to bring back Rhino invincibility.  We don't want him to be invincible, just more resilient than the non-tank frames.

 

Update:

5 step proposal to balance out damage reduction powers:

Step 1: Remove invulnerability from Valkyr's broken hysteria.

Step 2: Remove power scaling to eclipse and shatter shield.  80% DR for Mesa and 75% for Mirage is more than enough for "glass cannon" type warframes.

Step 3: Buff Rhino's base armor to 300 and apply armor DR to iron skin.  Iron skin health = max shields + max health + power strength.  This makes a full iron skin build require at least four mods (Redirection, vitality, steel fiber, and power strength mods)

Step 4: Add additional aggro mechanics to make Rhino draw enemy fire away from teammates and to himself.

Step 5: Buff Frost's armor to 300.  Give Frost an augment to make snow globe more eximus-like in exchange for a significant chunk of its health.... perhaps using the same health and DR formula as iron skin for the eximus version.

Absolutely none, NONE, of this is allowed to happen until 

1.) The feedback involving the rework of augments and abilities happen (so that the devs aren't hypocritical; seeing as they said they wouldn't make augments like patches to the abilities when they are exactly that, especially when you look at Excalibur's Surging Dash and how Slash Dash suddenly got the ability to add to the combo counter... HMMMM...)

2.) Parkour gets a rework, so that these said glass cannons don't need their damage reduction abilities because Parkour and the penalty to enemies is synergistic enough that they don't get hit so damn often. 

3.) Until you change this post so that you're not nerfing other frames. Used Rhino Prime today and yesterday, just got done spending an hour and twenty in a void survival. Iron Skin lasted pretty well with just Blind Rage, so I don't see a need to Nerf Mirage, Mesa, Frost and Valkyr and makes Iron skin have the potential to be more powerful than Mesa's Shatter shield currently is. 

 

 

In fact, I'll give you a suggestion. 

Replicate Frost's bubble to a degree; Re-add immense immediate aggro to Iron Skin for three seconds. In this time, Iron Skin absorbs all damage to turn into hit points, which are not added to by your teammates, and then after two seconds, the aggro falls off, the third is when the invulnerability stops, therefore making sure that you don't instantly lose the Iron Skin you just built up. This give Iron Skin the potential to have as much health as a good Frost bubble and it scales indefinitely. Sure, it'd be kinda broke. But at least you'd not have to nerf four other frames to make another frame look appealing, which would then make this cycle loop indefinitely. The Valkyr player makes a thread "Bring back Hysteria face tanking" which involves nerfing Rhino, the Mesa player "Bring back shatter shield face tanking" which involves nerfing aforementioned two, Frost "Bring back old Snow Globe" and so forth until it comes back to this very thread. 

Edited January 31, 2015 by (PS4)theelix

[geninrising]

Absolutely none, NONE, of this is allowed to happen until 

1.) The feedback involving the rework of augments and abilities happen (so that the devs aren't hypocritical; seeing as they said they wouldn't make augments like patches to the abilities when they are exactly that, especially when you look at Excalibur's Surging Dash and how Slash Dash suddenly got the ability to add to the combo counter... HMMMM...)

2.) Parkour gets a rework, so that these said glass cannons don't need their damage reduction abilities because Parkour and the penalty to enemies is synergistic enough that they don't get hit so damn often. 

3.) Until you change this post so that you're not nerfing other frames. Used Rhino Prime today and yesterday, just got done spending an hour and twenty in a void survival. Iron Skin lasted pretty well with just Blind Rage, so I don't see a need to Nerf Mirage, Mesa, Frost and Valkyr and makes Iron skin have the potential to be more powerful than Mesa's Shatter shield currently is. 

That's exactly why I put forward many changes in the Augments should not Fix abilities post for AlphaHorseman. I am also trying to help these guys sort out Iron Skin as well. Don't worry we'll get him there. Don't worry about his nerf to do list. We have never agreed with it nor will we.

[Ronyn]

Man, you guys are reeeeally putting a lot of ..... effort on this.

You guys better ask for a new actual tank frame than a total rework for this frame that's already too goofy.

A new frame wouldn't solve the existing issues with rhino, power scaling, or energy usage in general.

Besides, if rhino is "too goofy" already then he needs some tuning anyway. We haven't been looking for "total rework"....

Just a different aproach to certain persistant problems.

[Ragingkitty]

just gonna say now, I heard valkyr put on this forum different sorts of times. all I have to say is this, first off she is my main frame. I play her every day because I like her ability to take damage and dish it out. now T3 down is no problem for valkyr espically with a good team, because she becomes the nuke button if you don't have any glass cannons up on the team, for she can sit there debuff and take out everything around a pod. but there is a reason how I make her stay up and it isn't because she is a god in hysteria. its because I built her weapons and her frame right to withstand the higher tier, her hysteria ability goes to hell at T4. its pretty much garbage and your main skill becomes warcry. and I've been to the higher tiers, and if I'm doing sloppy that day, I'm going to die as valkyr. so please don't call valkyr a tank, or she will get angry and face roll you in pvp. she is a bad example to use as a tank. and always will be since her skills make her go into ballistic melee mode as rhino can run around and shoot everything with OP guns. now I think your getting angry cause you can't build any of your weapons worth a S#&$. and need something that is already fine and balanced to fit a very OP role so you can be lazy and just sit there at higher tiers and be a dirt bag, and farm using a broken frame. so if your asking the DE "hey I don't want a challenge I want your game broke as F*** so I can do what I want" get off warframe. this isn't the place for you, the community loves balanced things. now I wish all of you a good day and valkyr will eat your soul, if not cut it to shreds with her claws. watch your back the kitty cat doesn't play nice.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Ragingkitty

[Mak_Gohae]

The entire point to this thread is the fact that Rhino has been kind of left to Rot. I'm pretty sure DE has not verified his usage numbers amongst NON new players in quite awhile. New players get him then spam the crap out of him...then they pretty much disregard his existence.

 

I think that DE should pay close attention to frames that get no play time and steadily try to bring them on par with the most played frames. Once we finally get everyone  to a good place WITH THE PLAYERS(Not you [DE]Scott or Grineer whatever the heck your name is), then we can rest for a bit on these types of threads.

 

You think Rhino gets no play time?

This dude has to be one of the top frames used by the general audience.

 

 

A new frame wouldn't solve the existing issues with rhino, power scaling, or energy usage in general.

Besides, if rhino is "too goofy" already then he needs some tuning anyway. We haven't been looking for "total rework"....

Just a different aproach to certain persistant problems.

 

Power scaling is a general issue not a Rhino only issue. So it would strange to only solve that problem in Rhino and not other frames.

And goofy doesnt mean bad it just means that the rhino doesnt really have a role, Rhino is really a few powers thrown together with they way they function now.

[geninrising]

You think Rhino gets no play time?

This dude has to be one of the top frames used by the general audience.

 

Actually given the number of Rhino's I actually see on a daily basis there is a large chance that I am correct on this. The reason being is this, Rhino serves no niche roll in WF and is therefore not NEEDED for anything at all. Sure some may mess around on him every now and then but on the whole I rarely see him in any circumstance other than a player f'ing around and just playing precisely what they want without regard to composition of the party.

 

What I want to see is a change in this mindset which would allow Rhino a true place among our warframes other than as a buffer for farming and so that it is not the same 4-8 frames I see all day.

Edited February 1, 2015 by geninrising

[sanj66]

just gonna say now, I heard valkyr put on this forum different sorts of times. all I have to say is this, first off she is my main frame. I play her every day because I like her ability to take damage and dish it out. now T3 down is no problem for valkyr espically with a good team, because she becomes the nuke button if you don't have any glass cannons up on the team, for she can sit there debuff and take out everything around a pod. but there is a reason how I make her stay up and it isn't because she is a god in hysteria. its because I built her weapons and her frame right to withstand the higher tier, her hysteria ability goes to hell at T4. its pretty much garbage and your main skill becomes warcry. and I've been to the higher tiers, and if I'm doing sloppy that day, I'm going to die as valkyr. so please don't call valkyr a tank, or she will get angry and face roll you in pvp. she is a bad example to use as a tank. and always will be since her skills make her go into ballistic melee mode as rhino can run around and shoot everything with OP guns. now I think your getting angry cause you can't build any of your weapons worth a S#&$. and need something that is already fine and balanced to fit a very OP role so you can be lazy and just sit there at higher tiers and be a dirt bag, and farm using a broken frame. so if your asking the DE "hey I don't want a challenge I want your game broke as F*** so I can do what I want" get off warframe. this isn't the place for you, the community loves balanced things. now I wish all of you a good day and valkyr will eat your soul, if not cut it to shreds with her claws. watch your back the kitty cat doesn't play nice.

wrong on both, most armor, high hp, and a completely god mode skill, she has the ability to tank, also being forced into melee has what to do with her stats and theoretical class identification and limitation? what challenge does total god mode and an already tanky frame gives you? and i am talking about valkyr, DE should never have buffed her armor up to 600 if they were giving her a melee god mode skill. funny you say balance but hysteria has been agreed upon by alot of players in this thread as broken and needs the god mode removed.

[Ronyn]

Power scaling is a general issue not a Rhino only issue. So it would strange to only solve that problem in Rhino and not other frames.

And goofy doesnt mean bad it just means that the rhino doesnt really have a role, Rhino is really a few powers thrown together with they way they function now.

Power scaling is certainly a wider issue. Looking to solve rhinos power scaling in a thread about rhino doesn't at all mean I am not also looking to see it fixed all around. If we are going to solve power scaling we have to examine each and every power on every frame to make sure its right.

And if goofy means what you just described id say some work is needed.

[geninrising]

wrong on both, most armor, high hp, and a completely god mode skill, she has the ability to tank, also being forced into melee has what to do with her stats and theoretical class identification and limitation? what challenge does total god mode and an already tanky frame gives you? and i am talking about valkyr, DE should never have buffed her armor up to 600 if they were giving her a melee god mode skill. funny you say balance but hysteria has been agreed upon by alot of players in this thread as broken and needs the god mode removed.

Agreed. Valkyr's skill set is composed of decidedly  Tanky abilities(defense increase+ a debuff, Godtank mode) and has the highest overall survivability of all frames outside of her abilities=Tank.

[geninrising]

so if your asking the DE "hey I don't want a challenge I want your game broke as F*** so I can do what I want" get off warframe. this isn't the place for you, the community loves balanced things. now I wish all of you a good day and valkyr will eat your soul, if not cut it to shreds with her claws. watch your back the kitty cat doesn't play nice.

Says this and mains Valkyr, irony.

[ThePresident777]

What bugs me about the idea of face tanking is that it will hide the sad shape that movement is in.  If there were no tanking in the game at all, then the importance of enemy aimboting and Tenno movement would be pushed to the front because there would be no alternative.  Other than that, I don't care if people face tank.  I think it's boring and not Space Ninja but I don't see it as my problem.

[(XBOX)II Orochi II]

There is no need to nerf Mesa and Valkyr simply because Rhino falls off with his face tanking, that would be like nerfing Nova because Ember falls off hard. Why does everyone hate on Hysteria, it is a significant dps drop with invulnerability. Just because your favorite frame isn't top tier doesn't mean that others should be dragged to the same level.

[geninrising]

There is no need to nerf Mesa and Valkyr simply because Rhino falls off with his face tanking, that would be like nerfing Nova because Ember falls off hard. Why does everyone hate on Hysteria, it is a significant dps drop with invulnerability. Just because your favorite frame isn't top tier doesn't mean that others should be dragged to the same level.

We hate on Hysteria mainly because it is an easy mode button that should not exist. In fact the way that Hysteria behaves is precisely the way old Iron Skin used to behave and it was broken then as Hysteria is now.

[Mak_Gohae]

Actually given the number of Rhino's I actually see on a daily basis there is a large chance that I am correct on this. The reason being is this, Rhino serves no niche roll in WF and is therefore not NEEDED for anything at all. Sure some may mess around on him every now and then but on the whole I rarely see him in any circumstance other than a player f'ing around and just playing precisely what they want without regard to composition of the party.

 

What I want to see is a change in this mindset which would allow Rhino a true place among our warframes other than as a buffer for farming and so that it is not the same 4-8 frames I see all day.

 

All i do is pug and i see this mofo all the time.

I even make jokes about having a tactical alert be "No Rhinos" allowed cause these guys show up all the time anything that has a bit of difficulty.

This why i said general audience. Im sure in clan and friend groups you all have your party tactics down with whatever combo you came up but that doesnt fall on everyone.

 

 

Power scaling is certainly a wider issue. Looking to solve rhinos power scaling in a thread about rhino doesn't at all mean I am not also looking to see it fixed all around. If we are going to solve power scaling we have to examine each and every power on every frame to make sure its right.

And if goofy means what you just described id say some work is needed.

 

He had a role. He had a role that people didnt like and went on to do something else with him. DE then tried to accommodate the people that didnt like that role but still not actually change it to the role people wanted. Now there's people calling for that role while DE has shown that this is not his role.

This is why i suggest for you folks to look for a new frame cause DE obviously does not want Rhino in that role you folks want.

[Ronyn]

He had a role. He had a role that people didnt like and went on to do something else with him. DE then tried to accommodate the people that didnt like that role but still not actually change it to the role people wanted. Now there's people calling for that role while DE has shown that this is not his role.

This is why i suggest for you folks to look for a new frame cause DE obviously does not want Rhino in that role you folks want.

"obvious"...sigh...

We went through rhino's history already. I heard your opinion on what it meant, my opinion is different. No point in retreading that.

I'm giving feedback on what I think is best for Rhino based on my understanding of DE's intent and the nature of the game at this time.

It's fine if you see things differently but keep in mind it's not like you're the only one who has been here a long time.

It's not like I don't have evidence to support my view of what I think DE has been trying to do with Rhino.

Edited February 2, 2015 by Ronyn